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Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

NeverKnowsBest

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I honestly believe Zelda does amazing against Fox. Her up smash gives the business to Fox. I was playing a Zelda last night and got 3 up smash juggles at 0%. I tried smash DIing with all my might and just got destroyed. Zelda kills early with up air against Fox without proper DI around 80%. Her down smash clears the room nicely. Forward smash is awesome for spacing, I don't really know how to play Zelda so I'm not going to act like I know everything about her. I look forward to reading more information about her.

Fox however really just needs to camp her like crazy. Even though Nayru's Love reflects the lasers, Fox still comes up on top in the camping game because the lasers never reach back. To beat Zelda I usually use up tilt juggle and watch for a falling Nayru's Love or what ever move is likely to come out against my juggle. I also usually always try to hit my forward air. It racks up so much damage. I keep adding damage with lasers until kill percent and then up smash out of the shield or up tilt out of the shield and then double jump back air.

I didn't really give any concrete points in the match up. Just experience. I believe the match up is around 60:40 Zelda.

Zelda is a pretty cool character.

EDIT: I just went back into the post and read Canvasofgrey post...that post really upset me. Lol =D:psycho:
 

Yanoss1313

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I honestly believe Zelda does amazing against Fox. Her up smash gives the business to Fox. I was playing a Zelda last night and got 3 up smash juggles at 0%. I tried smash DIing with all my might and just got destroyed. Zelda kills early with up air against Fox without proper DI around 80%. Her down smash clears the room nicely. Forward smash is awesome for spacing, I don't really know how to play Zelda so I'm not going to act like I know everything about her. I look forward to reading more information about her.

Fox however really just needs to camp her like crazy. Even though Nayru's Love reflects the lasers, Fox still comes up on top in the camping game because the lasers never reach back. To beat Zelda I usually use up tilt juggle and watch for a falling Nayru's Love or what ever move is likely to come out against my juggle. I also usually always try to hit my forward air. It racks up so much damage. I keep adding damage with lasers until kill percent and then up smash out of the shield or up tilt out of the shield and then double jump back air.

I didn't really give any concrete points in the match up. Just experience. I believe the match up is around 60:40 Zelda.

Zelda is a pretty cool character.

EDIT: I just went back into the post and read Canvasofgrey post...that post really upset me. Lol =D:psycho:
i think you where pretty much spot on there. it's just so hard to approach her
 

Kataefi

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Up air kills much earlier than 80% sadly against fox with DI xD I should post my list of up air kill percents! It all depends on the ceiling and how high you are in the first place.

Careful not to shine stall I suppose.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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true, but i didn't necicarily mean her approaching, i meant more to the effect of fox sending her up and chasing. again, also situational
Zelda has a nice long airdodge and pretty respectable horizontal air speed. Plus farore's can help for evasion. Invincibility on nayru's and priority of dair can help if you have god-like timing/luck, but generally they are too risky to be reliable.

The reason I said it's not a common situation is becuase a Zelda worth her salt won't try to hit fox if she's above him.... she'll try to evade.
 

Lightning93

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I have a lot of past experience with this matchup and I agree so far with whats been stated, so good job all around.

And if it hasn't already been said, Zelda's best move in this matchup is down-b for obvious reasons.

Around 50:50 or 55:45 Zelda's favor.
 

NeverKnowsBest

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Up air kills much earlier than 80% sadly against fox with DI xD I should post my list of up air kill percents! It all depends on the ceiling and how high you are in the first place.

Careful not to shine stall I suppose.
Lol I guess I'm thinking or of the awesome run off up airs Zelda does rather than the intercepting ones when I recover.
 

Yanoss1313

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I have a lot of past experience with this matchup and I agree so far with whats been stated, so good job all around.

And if it hasn't already been said, Zelda's best move in this matchup is down-b for obvious reasons.

Around 50:50 or 55:45 Zelda's favor.
lol, agreed thats just murder >.<
 

triforce hero

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I think that really the worst stage for Zelda that alot of people play is Final Destination because there is plenty of room for people to jump around and get u to afouid fire balls
 

Lightning93

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My friend actually finds it quite easy to transform. He discovered how using a move like Zelda's down-b or Diddy's up-b after taking knockback triggers some beneficial momentum causing you to rise while performing the desired action, rendering you out of reach. Also, you have time if Fox needs to recover, so essentially you make your own time, which is worth the effort if you want to gain the upper hand.

Or you could press start while transforming and let the game load Shiek for you.
 

Poltergust

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So... when is my summary going to go up on the first post? I know that it may have not been terribly detailed, but I spent a long time typing that up. =(
 

-Tempest-

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Without Sheik, what's the matchup? Even to slight Zelda's favor I think was said, but could someone clarify?
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Fox boards currently have zelda as 60:40 our favour...... but I'd say 55:45 captures it better.
 

Dihan

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Also its hard to turn into sheik if you want to
It's as easy as pressing down and B. ;P

Joking aside, I'd say the inverse is true. Zelda has enough power to knock them away far enough to enable one to transform safely whereas Sheik doesn't have that power. Besides, Sheik wouldn't want to transform during the Fox matchup anyway.

I'd like to add something to the discussion but the only person I regularly play against, someone who regularly reads up on stuff and lurks on the other character boards (specifically finding things about how to beat Zelda), is currently going through a Toon Link phase. I also live in an inconvenient place so I don't have any opportunities to enter tourneys.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Joking aside, I'd say the inverse is true. Zelda has enough power to knock them away far enough to enable one to transform safely whereas Sheik doesn't have that power. Besides, Sheik wouldn't want to transform during the Fox matchup anyway.
Jump transforming is all it takes.... there's, like, no way to punish you for doing that.


And as for sheik turning into zelda.......... why? Did you get fox to, like, 120% and not kill him? I suppose that's a valid reason for a transform since zelda will kill in 1 hit at that damage.
 

Dihan

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And as for sheik turning into zelda.......... why? Did you get fox to, like, 120% and not kill him? I suppose that's a valid reason for a transform since zelda will kill in 1 hit at that damage.
I was just rambling. The only time I've ever fought a Fox was on With Anyone. I don't use Sheik much either. I'll just go back to lurking because I won't be able to add anything constructive.
 

Kataefi

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So... when is my summary going to go up on the first post? I know that it may have not been terribly detailed, but I spent a long time typing that up. =(
Yep it will go up don't worry ^^ I've been a little busy recently.

So what stages would be good for fox and who would be willing to write a summary on this matchup? =D
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Yep it will go up don't worry ^^ I've been a little busy recently.

So what stages would be good for fox and who would be willing to write a summary on this matchup? =D
Mansion gives us a massive advantage... obviously.


But since it's banned a lot I'll honestly say: the more platforms, the better. at least that's how it's always seemed to me. Battlefeild, delfino and brinstar tend to yeild better results than final destination or yoshi's island for me.
 

Sukai

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Fox has camping, speed, and a middle finger to Zelda's crappy vertical knockback resistance, which--fun fact--is a smidge better than Sheik's, which isn't saying much.

Zelda has to play real traditional here, bait and punish, but she'll have to approach most of the time, reflecting with "Love" doesn't do much and renders Zelda defenseless from aerial approaches and "uh-oh, down air!" Zelda's recovery is as predictable as they come,
she don't have much for mixups either. Either she hit's the ledge or she hits the stage, both with are terribly choreographed well in advance, Fox's isn't "omg unpredictable" either, but he has three methods and a stall move. Firefox is hands down his worst option, because of Zelda spikes, so if Zelda can force Fox to below the stage, then she has a free stock. But due to the reflector making Din's Fire almost useless and Foxcopter, that opportunity is few and far between.

As bad as Zelda's vertical knockback resistance is, Fox's is even worse, so a well placed, Forward Tilt, Up Smash or Up tilt can spell death for him pretty fast, Up smash seems the most viable, but SDI says no, Fox can SDI before the last hit then down or neutral air to punish. Zelda wants to guard more than dodge, not only to make great use of her Out of Shield options, but as to not get popped with a neutral air, which laughs at spotdodging. Fox's ground game is on par with Zelda's, what Fox lacks in power/priority, he makes up in speed, for Zelda it's the opposite, she may not hit fast, but she hits hard and most of the time, eats through clashing attacks, so to keep Fox off her, she has plenty of spacing moves to maintain that bait and punish distance, the problem is, Fox dominates in the air vs Zelda, Zelda has some pretty *****'n aerials, but they don't fare well vs Fox's, who's air attacks are all faster and follows up better.
Somewhere between--
55-45 and 60-40

Fox's favor.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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...Up smash seems the most viable, but SDI says no, Fox can SDI before the last hit then down or neutral air to punish...
Any time anyone has SDId out of my Usmash (which isn't exceptionally easy), I've only ever been punished by people that can DI out the bottom (which fox is not short enough to do) and, even then, only with a jab. The hitstun from Usmash simply lasts too long for anything but an incredibly fast attack to beat out an instinctive Dsmash from zelda.

Now fox is not short enough to SDI out the bottom (unles he's over a ledge, in which case that's a bad idea anyway.) and his fastfall speed makes that harder than for most, Zelda can pretty much put up a sheild or put out a second Usmash quicker than Fox can "punish" even with excelent timing on his part. And if he'd like to SDI out earlier then he may very well get hit by the larger hitbox at the end of the smash that he just DId out of.

There is probably a perfect timing that'll let him get out an attack in the window between usmashes, but I'm going to say that that's probably not easy to time considering it's necisary to SDI.
 

KayLo!

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I think we all know what the real solution is here.....

*Points to her Pika icon* x.o

 

Lightning93

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... If you think it's funny, its really not -.-.

Anyways yeah in summary this matchup shouldn't be a problem for either character. Fox has some trouble approaching (especially from the air in this case), but Zelda also has to play strictly by baiting and punishing.
 

Sukai

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Any time anyone has SDId out of my Usmash (which isn't exceptionally easy), I've only ever been punished by people that can DI out the bottom (which fox is not short enough to do) and, even then, only with a jab. The hitstun from Usmash simply lasts too long for anything but an incredibly fast attack to beat out an instinctive Dsmash from zelda.

Now fox is not short enough to SDI out the bottom (unles he's over a ledge, in which case that's a bad idea anyway.) and his fastfall speed makes that harder than for most, Zelda can pretty much put up a sheild or put out a second Usmash quicker than Fox can "punish" even with excelent timing on his part. And if he'd like to SDI out earlier then he may very well get hit by the larger hitbox at the end of the smash that he just DId out of.

There is probably a perfect timing that'll let him get out an attack in the window between usmashes, but I'm going to say that that's probably not easy to time considering it's necisary to SDI.
At low percentages, Fox is forced to take it in the *** if up smashed, he can even be locked in it for about 2 or 3 of them, but at high, SDI up is completely possible and probable, plus he has shine stalling to wait out that last hitbox if he gets out early.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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At low percentages, Fox is forced to take it in the *** if up smashed, he can even be locked in it for about 2 or 3 of them, but at high, SDI up is completely possible and probable, plus he has shine stalling to wait out that last hitbox if he gets out early.
yeah, at high damages maybe.... but if he has to shinestall to wait out that last hitbox, he's NOT going to be punishing us with any aerial. He simply would have to have nearly frame perfect timing. And it's NOT worth the risk to try it. You hit a sheild and you get either Usmashed again or you get Dsmashed. maybe even grabbed. or, worse, Dtilt->utilt
 

Sukai

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yeah, at high damages maybe.... but if he has to shinestall to wait out that last hitbox, he's NOT going to be punishing us with any aerial. He simply would have to have nearly frame perfect timing. And it's NOT worth the risk to try it. You hit a sheild and you get either Usmashed again or you get Dsmashed. maybe even grabbed. or, worse, Dtilt->utilt
So you're saying Zelda's lag frames are so small after the last hitbox vanishes, Fox can't even sex kick her?
Where's you data for this sir?

And Fox really can't punish, this that's just, because Up Smash in general would be useless for kills and a campy Fox is hard to catch with momentum like Zelda's.
 

Brinzy

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Not that he's always forcing approaches in the first place. And if you're behind a stock... you lose what, Din's? lol

Fox doesn't wall Zelda, at all.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Not that he's always forcing approaches in the first place. And if you're behind a stock... you lose what, Din's? lol

Fox doesn't wall Zelda, at all.
besides since Fox's blaster doesn't cause flinching, there's a certain distance that you can stand where fox simply cannot safely use his blaster.

And, yeah, if you're up a stock. Just Din's and nayru's to countercamp him if you're far enough away not to get punished.
 

Sukai

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besides since Fox's blaster doesn't cause flinching, there's a certain distance that you can stand where fox simply cannot safely use his blaster.
The blaster isn't that short, it can span quite a distance, and whatever distance that Zelda can move out of, Fox can just move with her, adjust the distance so that it does hit--safely. Unless he's in Zelda's attack range, he can always laser safely, and Zelda cannot stand in a "certain distance" where Fox cannot properly use a range weapon, if he's in combat range, he's gonna use melee attacks. Your logic is......not shining here.
Fox doesn't have to camp all day, but he can if he wants to, then what can Zelda do, but chase after him, I've camped and ran until my opponent was at 80%, if I can do it, I'm sure at the highest level, someone else can be much more crafty with it.
And, yeah, if you're up a stock. Just Din's and nayru's to countercamp him if you're far enough away not to get punished.
Fox won't camp so blatantly if he's losing, and Zelda doesn't have any "total safety" tactics. Plus countercamping with Naryu won't work, the lasers won't reach and there are enough end frames for some lasers to hit her, it's not camping since Fox still isn't forced to approach, Din's fire won't help unless carefully timed, because short hop lasers auto cancel and can literally follow up with a shine with no lag, I've done this. And even is she properly times it to hit between jumps, she'll be taking alot of lasers in between and...will it be worth it?
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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The blaster isn't that short, it can span quite a distance, and whatever distance that Zelda can move out of, Fox can just move with her, adjust the distance so that it does hit--safely. Unless he's in Zelda's attack range, he can always laser safely, and Zelda cannot stand in a "certain distance" where Fox cannot properly use a range weapon, if he's in combat range, he's gonna use melee attacks. Your logic is......not shining here.
his blaster takes time to put away. If we're close enough... he can't pull a blaster out or we can reach him before he can put the blaster away. Sure he can keep backing up, but he'll reach the edge of the stage eventually. I have no idea how you can suggest otherwise.


. And even is she properly times it to hit between jumps, she'll be taking alot of lasers in between and...will it be worth it?
if she's up a stock..... yeah.
 
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