Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[KayLo!]

Oh god, it just never ends........ @.@

I'll come back and reply later. Or maybe I won't.... I feel like I'm arguing against a brick wall.

Next character, please?

 

[Brinzy]

He uses Zelda.

Also, I think this is everyone who matters... I think.

 

[MrEh]

STFU, Kaylo, your opinion doesn't matter b/c you're a woman!

PX would be the troll king if he wasn't a mod.

Reverse dsmash is significantly faster than hitting with the second hit, especially if you buffer your turnaround.

The 2nd hit of the Dsmash comes out on frame 12. As most of us know, the first hit comes out on frame 4. So that means if you buffer a turnaround, a Dsmash will hit on frame 6, since I think turnaround is 2 frames. That makes it twice as fast. ^^

I was using marth to show "out-projectile camped =/= forced to approach", with Marth being the easiest example.

Yes, but Zelda being out-projectile camped does equal a forced approach. Why bother bringing up Marth at all? It has nothing to do with Zelda. lol

We're talking about Zelda having to approach Fox. Whether or not Marth has to approach is irrelevant.

no, you're pretty screwed if dair connects, lol. Behind you, he has a 5 frame utilt to pop you up into the air, and in front of you he has grab/jab/dsmash/usmash. If you're not doing your best to take passive measures, you'll be taking heavy punishment.

This is the truth. I expect no more people saying that you can punish the Dair with Naryu's. That's just silly.

I'll come back and reply later. Or maybe I won't.... I feel like I'm arguing against a brick wall.

It's useless to argue with people who have no idea what they're talking about. lol

He uses Zelda.

But does he use her well? XD

I've been winning.

Fixed that for you. ^^

 

[Darkmusician]

A few tips against Fox. This is based on my experience against Merc, Lethal Trilogy and Swift Kai. They all use(used) Fox in tournament on me. I say used because Merc moved back to GA and does not play brawl anymore to my knowledge.

1-If and when Fox connects with his down air especially at high damage, get ready to or start DIing with the joystick because a follow up is coming. By DIing early you give yourself the best chance to live. Being able to think ahead like this is key because Zelda lacks the overall speed to do things on reaction against Fox.

2-Try to stay grounded against Fox. There will be times when going in the air is fine but for the most part especially on stages like SV or FD, stay low and fight fox on the ground with d-tilts out of shield and smart smash use (i won't go into that because we've talked about spacing smashes already) You'll generally want to go in the air when fox is either coming down at you or coming at your horizantally (side b etc cause you can beat him out of it). The worst position for Zelda is for Fox to be below you cause Zelda has nothing really going for her coming down at him. His Fox Trot can move him in and out of range so falling kicks are safe and neither the dair is too risky. Best options would be a falling nayrus love or falling fully charged dins however should it miss you will get upsmashed.

3-Don't get impatient against Fox (faster characters in general). While Zelda isn't a good planker the ledge is her friend when you have to regain your composure and take a second or two to think. Take the ledge to get your jump back and get some invincibilty to reset yourself. Don't get over zealous and constantly over extend with smashes and don't feel the need to DI right back into Fox all the time after getting knocked. Again I don't recommend Zelda falling into Fox because as fast as you do it Fox will usually be faster and you'll just take more damage and become more impatient and anxious.

4-Finally yes Fox is fragile and on the light side but don't try to force the kill move by charging at him with your best attacks over and over. This also goes along with getting impatient. Take ur time if you have the lead and stick to your game plan. Don't change the way you play just because you're ahead (or in some cases behind) in percent. Continue to work your way towards Fox carefully avoiding as much lasers and chip damage as possible (chip damage is gonna happen no matter what vs Fox so just try to take as little as possible by not ignoring it completely) and eventually Zelda's kill moves will find a way.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@adumbrodeus - I'm not trying to imply anything with this question, but I felt like asking so I'm going to ask...

Do you use Zelda or Fox? Or are you more of a 3rd party like MrEh and PhantomX?

I'm just curious is all.

Zelda/Sheik is my secondary.

Though, honestly my biggest interest here in this thread is match-up modeling in general.

Yes, but Zelda being out-projectile camped does equal a forced approach. Why bother bringing up Marth at all? It has nothing to do with Zelda. lol

We're talking about Zelda having to approach Fox. Whether or not Marth has to approach is irrelevant.

Not at all.

Once I established that being out-projectile camped doesn't mean a forced approach, I explained precisely why some characters are forced to approach in these cases and others aren't.

I'll repeat since you obviously didn't bother to read.


In almost all match-ups, projectile users have a "projectile dead zone", basically a space where they are unable to to use projectiles safely. If this zone extends past their safe melee range then they can only force the opponent to move to that zone, not approach (because at that point, they do not have to cover their approach, so in getting there, approach options or lack thereof is meaningless though damage received along the way is meaningful).

From there, one of two things can occur, either the outcamped character has a safe poke (or multiple safe pokes) and can force the opponent to approach or neither character can force the other to approach, so at that range one of two things can occurs:

1. We have an elaborate baiting and spacing game where the two characters attempt to force the other to approach.

2. One of the characters decides to approach (at the top of the metagame this generally occurs if the character has a safe approach).


We're dealing with the first of the two options here.


Unless you have something to attempt to refute my model, in which case I'll gladly discuss it with you.

 

[MrEh]

I'll repeat since you obviously didn't bother to read.

It's not that I didn't read it, it's just that it doesn't apply to Zelda. SniperWorm summed it up pretty nicely that you have never taken into account that Marth can actually approach well, whereas Zelda's approach is terrible.

You must also take into account that Marth is fast and can actually approach from the air. Zelda is one of the slowest characters in the game, and she cannot approach from the air or the ground well. That makes her more vulnerable to camping, and that makes her forced approach even more disadvantageous for her.

Also, this is out of pure curiosity, but how much do you use Zelda? And do you place in tournaments?

The rest of the post

The sad part about theorycraft is that it's just that. Theory. We can talk about how Zelda can stay near this dead zone and not be forced to approach, but we'd be ignoring two simple things that are outrageously apparent when you try to put this into practice:

1. Zelda's approach options are poor

2. Fox can punish like a crazed maniac

Zelda's approach options are bad. Her grabs are terrible and approaching from the air is near suicide. Dare I say it, the only decent ground moves she has are a Dtilt and smashes. But the thing about her smashes is that are a very terrible approach against anyone, and if Fox decides to play super safe and campy, Zelda won't have many chances to get close to him at all, since she's so slow and Fox will be hopping around everywhere. And when she does get close, what then? What are you going to do? Spam smashes? If you lag for a second, you're going to be punished. Fox can close any gap super quickly and hit you with...well...anything. It's Fox after all.

This is not theorycraft. This has been proven in actual matches, and I'm sure DM has already vouched that Fox does indeed force Zelda to approach. Hell, even NinjaLink says so.

 

[Darkmusician]

Closing the gap from wherever Zelda is to reach the so called "dead zone" for Fox is still approaching.

Approaching is defined as (in this case)
-the act of drawing closer to something
-move towards

Zelda cannot win a range battle a full stage length that much has been established. So she is forced to move towards Fox and close the distance between them to reach Fox's dead zone. That's still approaching because she moved towards him.

Even in the dead zone Fox is not trapped or stopped by any means. He can run away to make more camping space, or he can wait and punish. Zelda can try to chase him but he won't catch her. She can try to follow him and throw out smashes but it will not catch him and he will punish you with whatever is appropriate. It's not that hard to do against a Zelda even if you don't main Fox.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

... He can run away to make more camping space...

the stage ends somewhere

 

[adumbrodeus]

Closing the gap from wherever Zelda is to reach the so called "dead zone" for Fox is still approaching.

Approaching is defined as (in this case)
-the act of drawing closer to something
-move towards

Zelda cannot win a range battle a full stage length that much has been established. So she is forced to move towards Fox and close the distance between them to reach Fox's dead zone. That's still approaching because she moved towards him.

Even in the dead zone Fox is not trapped or stopped by any means. He can run away to make more camping space, or he can wait and punish. Zelda can try to chase him but he won't catch her. She can try to follow him and throw out smashes but it will not catch him and he will punish you with whatever is appropriate. It's not that hard to do against a Zelda even if you don't main Fox.

The problem with defining it as "moving forward" is that we've been talking about approaching in terms of "approach options", in other words, ability to move through a portion of the opponent's melee safe zone, and when we talk about Zelda lacking safe approach options, is it that she lacks an ability to move forward safely at considerable range? No, it's that her options for moving through the opponent's melee safe zone are very limited.


The point here is that those two are fundamentally different concepts, and in my expirience it's mainly used for "going through the opponent's melee safe zone", but people often extend it explicitly beyond. Really the issue present is not "what it means", but instead "what are we gonna call it then", because if we refer to both as "approaching", talking about a characters lack of approach options is fundamentally dishonest if they can move forward generally but have difficulty moving through the opponent's melee safe zone.

So, what do you suggest as far as technical terminology?


As for your final paragraph, the stage is not endless, if he continues running away, he's eventually trapped in the dead zone (this also happens when you use high-knockback attacks that push him forward), at that point he's basically done your job for you and your focus is not letting him get past.

It's not that I didn't read it, it's just that it doesn't apply to Zelda. SniperWorm summed it up pretty nicely that you have never taken into account that Marth can actually approach well, whereas Zelda's approach is terrible.

But I never was discussing ability to approach, instead dealing with simply moving forward. If you define approach to include simply moving forward at a range, then Zelda DOES have good approach options, just not when moving through the opponent's melee safe zone.

The projectiles have a dead zone, if the projectile dead zone starts at a farther range then the character's melee safe zone then you only need to move into the character's projectile dead zone, and if you define that as approaching, fine, but don't pretend that Zelda is horrible at getting there in this match-up.

You must also take into account that Marth is fast and can actually approach from the air. Zelda is one of the slowest characters in the game, and she cannot approach from the air or the ground well. That makes her more vulnerable to camping, and that makes her forced approach even more disadvantageous for her.

But I did implicitly, the criteria I used was based purely on the attributes, Marth was only an example, a rhetorical device to establish that you can show whether or not a character really needs to approach.

Also, this is out of pure curiosity, but how much do you use Zelda? And do you place in tournaments?

My tournament placements are not notable and I never claimed otherwise. But that's not really relevant since I'm approaching this from the data-based side anyway,

The sad part about theorycraft is that it's just that. Theory. We can talk about how Zelda can stay near this dead zone and not be forced to approach, but we'd be ignoring two simple things that are outrageously apparent when you try to put this into practice:

1. Zelda's approach options are poor

2. Fox can punish like a crazed maniac

Zelda's approach options are bad. Her grabs are terrible and approaching from the air is near suicide. Dare I say it, the only decent ground moves she has are a Dtilt and smashes. But the thing about her smashes is that are a very terrible approach against anyone, and if Fox decides to play super safe and campy, Zelda won't have many chances to get close to him at all, since she's so slow and Fox will be hopping around everywhere. And when she does get close, what then? What are you going to do? Spam smashes? If you lag for a second, you're going to be punished. Fox can close any gap super quickly and hit you with...well...anything. It's Fox after all.

So you play bait and punish, if he retreats, you follow, otherwise play around with spacing.

I'm not saying that this is ultimately advantageous for Zelda, there's no way that this situation even remotely qualifies as an advantage or even an even match-up. All I'm saying is that this is how Zelda SHOULD play in this match-up.

(of course Zelda/Sheik should just use down-b, but we're not talking about Zelda/Sheik)

This is not theorycraft. This has been proven in actual matches, and I'm sure DM has already vouched that Fox does indeed force Zelda to approach. Hell, even NinjaLink says so.

DM meant "approach" differently then I did, and NinjaLink probably meant the same thing. The problem really comes with the tendency to confuse talk about a character as if "need to move forward" and "need to move through the safe melee zone" are the same thing, and this is an issue of terminology being used imprecisely. Unfortunately, poor terminology is very detrimental to match-up discussion (hence why I defined it explicitly, you may not agree with my usage, but at least you know what I'm saying).


As for theory vs. first-hand knowledge.

Scenario 1:

Theorycrafter: Ok, if you do x, y, and z your opponent will **** you because of a, b, and c attributes.

Expirienced player: That's cool and all but I never do that, I do this instead.


Scenario 2:

Experienced Playerr: I've been using this new tactic and it's so awesome, it's a 0-death against x, y, z characters.

Theorycrafter: No, based on the frame data and hitstun data, you've got a vulnerability here and they'll use it against you.



Basically the relationship is, experienced players provide ideas for what to do based on what has worked for them in tournaments, and theorycrafters use the data to figure out if the tactics actually work. They can also provide tactics derived from the data to the experienced players.

The thing is, theorycrafting is deductive, it doesn't have the problem of induction, HOWEVER, it doesn't always necessarily take every possible tactic into account, which is why experienced players are needed as well.

What's preferable is an experienced player that's good at theorycraft as well, however you'll often find that a number of experienced players are crap at theoretical modeling, so you have separate people. They're best used together.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It's VERY unfair and dishonest to call getting to the enemy's safe zone "approaching" and then say that Zelda is bad at this because she's bad at "approaching" when you really mean that she's bad at getting past that dead zone into melee range.

Even if you want to call them both approaching, you have to distinguish between the two as far as which ones zelda is good at and which one she's not. I'm not sure if the claim made earlier was just negligence or intentional deceit (I hope not), but, either way, it's a fallacy.

 

[Kataefi]

We're viewing matchups like they're some kind of clockwork mechanism and played by anything other than human beings.

I personally don't want this thread going in that direction, because frankly however complicated the human brain works, and however more we can suck the reality right out of any matchup, any good fox player will be shooting lasers at us and getting a percent lead at the beginning of the match.

From here it's a matter of closing the distance as quickly as possible to put Fox in a position in not having such a significant lead over us. What we must know is:

a) Zelda doesn't have Marth's movement speed. Adumbrodeus you are justifying your arguments, but take a step back and just look at the rate in which Fox can fire lasers, and how long it takes for Zelda to reach him. It's not matchup defining imo, but Zelda needs to make pretty good decisions and act fast to be able to minimise her risks.

b) Fox's moveset is faster than our's significantly, especially when you factor in how our actual approach options can be outsped, read and reacted to very easily, and how our OoS options (implying the 6/7 frame shield drop) simply can't outspeed Fox's autocancels into other moves as he attacks us.

All is not lost because of this...

...These are just inherrent advantages Fox has on us, but it's not as black and white as that. We need to come up with effective strategies to be able to counter these inherrent advantages and turn the matchup we're playing (in a real life tourney setting) in our favour.

A few tips against Fox. This is based on my experience against Merc, Lethal Trilogy and Swift Kai. They all use(used) Fox in tournament on me. I say used because Merc moved back to GA and does not play brawl anymore to my knowledge.

1-If and when Fox connects with his down air especially at high damage, get ready to or start DIing with the joystick because a follow up is coming. By DIing early you give yourself the best chance to live. Being able to think ahead like this is key because Zelda lacks the overall speed to do things on reaction against Fox.

2-Try to stay grounded against Fox. There will be times when going in the air is fine but for the most part especially on stages like SV or FD, stay low and fight fox on the ground with d-tilts out of shield and smart smash use (i won't go into that because we've talked about spacing smashes already) You'll generally want to go in the air when fox is either coming down at you or coming at your horizantally (side b etc cause you can beat him out of it). The worst position for Zelda is for Fox to be below you cause Zelda has nothing really going for her coming down at him. His Fox Trot can move him in and out of range so falling kicks are safe and neither the dair is too risky. Best options would be a falling nayrus love or falling fully charged dins however should it miss you will get upsmashed.

3-Don't get impatient against Fox (faster characters in general). While Zelda isn't a good planker the ledge is her friend when you have to regain your composure and take a second or two to think. Take the ledge to get your jump back and get some invincibilty to reset yourself. Don't get over zealous and constantly over extend with smashes and don't feel the need to DI right back into Fox all the time after getting knocked. Again I don't recommend Zelda falling into Fox because as fast as you do it Fox will usually be faster and you'll just take more damage and become more impatient and anxious.

4-Finally yes Fox is fragile and on the light side but don't try to force the kill move by charging at him with your best attacks over and over. This also goes along with getting impatient. Take ur time if you have the lead and stick to your game plan. Don't change the way you play just because you're ahead (or in some cases behind) in percent. Continue to work your way towards Fox carefully avoiding as much lasers and chip damage as possible (chip damage is gonna happen no matter what vs Fox so just try to take as little as possible by not ignoring it completely) and eventually Zelda's kill moves will find a way.

This is an example of a post with very good strategies. These are the types of posts we should be aiming to make because I can very clearly imagine someone reading this and applying it strongly in their Zelda game.

 

[sniperworm]

Zelda/Sheik is my secondary.

Cool, that's all I wanted to know.

 

[adumbrodeus]

a) Zelda doesn't have Marth's movement speed. Adumbrodeus you are justifying your arguments, but take a step back and just look at the rate in which Fox can fire lasers, and how long it takes for Zelda to reach him. It's not matchup defining imo, but Zelda needs to make pretty good decisions and act fast to be able to minimise her risks.

b) Fox's moveset is faster than our's significantly, especially when you factor in how our actual approach options can be outsped, read and reacted to very easily, and how our OoS options (implying the 6/7 frame shield drop) simply can't outspeed Fox's autocancels into other moves as he attacks us.

All is not lost because of this...

...These are just inherrent advantages Fox has on us, but it's not as black and white as that. We need to come up with effective strategies to be able to counter these inherrent advantages and turn the matchup we're playing (in a real life tourney setting) in our favour.



This is an example of a post with very good strategies. These are the types of posts we should be aiming to make because I can very clearly imagine someone reading this and applying it strongly in their Zelda game.

Yes, the lasers are match-up defining, just not in the way that it was being argued.


Understand, what I'm trying to do is conceptualize how Zelda should generally approach this match-up against a fox who's playing optimally (aka, campy fox). Unless somebody can pick out an inherent issue with how I'm approaching it (for example, fox has something that inherently eliminates his dead zone), we should model the match-up based on that assumption.

From there, we pick out the inherent advantages that both characters have, and from there we develop a ratio, and then we discuss strategies that zelda can use to close the gap IRL.


Notice that I haven't even mentioned a ratio yet (though I have suggested that even approaching this way, it's Zelda disadvantage), that's because we haven't got through modeling how the characters generally should approach the match-up.

 

[sniperworm]

Understand, what I'm trying to do is conceptualize how Zelda should generally approach this match-up against a fox who's playing optimally (aka, campy fox). Unless somebody can pick out an inherent issue with how I'm approaching it (for example, fox has something that inherently eliminates his dead zone), we should model the match-up based on that assumption.

I'm curious as to how Fox's Ftilt factors into your scheme of things. It seems similar to Falco's in that it has obscene range (considering they're short furries, lol), quick startup, and fairly safe on block when spaced (however, the Fox boards frame data is pretty lackluster so I can't be sure about this). Anyway, this move could potentially cause problems because like most fast moves with range, it will beat out Zelda's Fsmash and Ftilt because of the way that Zelda executes those moves. So unless Fox's Ftilt is outranged by Zelda's Dtilt or his spaced Ftilt can be reliably punished on block (even this wouldn't be surefire because you can't block it on reaction), we might have a problem.

 

[MrEh]

This is an example of a post with very good strategies. These are the types of posts we should be aiming to make because I can very clearly imagine someone reading this and applying it strongly in their Zelda game

The problem is that no one here listens to people who have actual experience in matchups. It's the Zelda boards, which means that theorycraft>actual experience.

It's not the theorycraft that's annoying, but it's the giant walls of texts that usually follow it. XD

I'm curious as to how Fox's Ftilt factors into your scheme of things. It seems similar to Falco's in that it has obscene range (considering they're short furries, lol), quick startup, and fairly safe on block when spaced (however, the Fox boards frame data is pretty lackluster so I can't be sure about this). Anyway, this move could potentially cause problems because like most fast moves with range, it will beat out Zelda's Fsmash and Ftilt because of the way that Zelda executes those moves. So unless Fox's Ftilt is outranged by Zelda's Dtilt or his spaced Ftilt can be reliably punished on block (even this wouldn't be surefire because you can't block it on reaction), we might have a problem.

I would've been nice if they calculated shield stun and the frame advanvage. If the Ftilt has enough range to smack Zelda out of her Fsmash fast enough, then that might be a good tool to use against her. (besides the usual bait and punish thing that Zelda players get ***** by)

I'd be mored worried about Fox running around like an idiot waiting for Zelda to mess up. Because once she messes up, BOOM! She just got daired or smashed OoS.

 

[PhantomX]

Isn't that sort of what Fox does in every matchup?

 

[Darkmusician]

The problem is that no one here listens to people who have actual experience in matchups. It's the Zelda boards, which means that theorycraft>actual experience.

It's not the theorycraft that's annoying, but it's the giant walls of texts that usually follow it. XD

As Merc used to say "Everyone thinks they have a black belt in Brawl."

PhantomX you ninja posted me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm curious as to how Fox's Ftilt factors into your scheme of things. It seems similar to Falco's in that it has obscene range (considering they're short furries, lol), quick startup, and fairly safe on block when spaced (however, the Fox boards frame data is pretty lackluster so I can't be sure about this). Anyway, this move could potentially cause problems because like most fast moves with range, it will beat out Zelda's Fsmash and Ftilt because of the way that Zelda executes those moves. So unless Fox's Ftilt is outranged by Zelda's Dtilt or his spaced Ftilt can be reliably punished on block (even this wouldn't be surefire because you can't block it on reaction), we might have a problem.

Don't actually know, if you could toss in some hard data about it, I'll factor it in. If not, I can run some tests.

As Merc used to say "Everyone thinks they have a black belt in Brawl."

PhantomX you ninja posted me.

Speaking as an actual martial artist with years of expirience I can tell you that theory is actually quite useful in martial arts.

They don't have a black belt in any martial art, and they don't claim to, but from expirience I can tell you that if you wanna be an exceptional martial artist, go to the people who have and deal with the data.

The problem is that no one here listens to people who have actual experience in matchups. It's the Zelda boards, which means that theorycraft>actual experience.

It's not the theorycraft that's annoying, but it's the giant walls of texts that usually follow it. XD

So, if expirience makes you clarvioent then you should be able to break down my argument with ease... I'm waiting.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

um princesses and others , i think we scared the other Foxs away, or bored them to sleep, im the only one here >.>

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Fox's Ftilt.... it might have range and speed, and be safe on block. But won't it get outprioritized by most of out moveset?

 

[Brinzy]

um princesses and others , i think we scared the other Foxs away, or bored them to sleep, im the only one here >.>

Maybe we should all leave so only Kataefi and two others remain. That's all this thread really wants anyway.

 

[Darkmusician]

Doesn't make a difference really if Zelda can move from full stage to the "dead zone" or w/e easily or not.

Fox can just wait for Zelda to do something and punish. Even with spaced smashes or short hopped air attacks Fox can run in and retaliate quite efficiently. Yea the stage has edges so he can't go back in one direction forever, but it's no problem for Fox to go around Zelda and head back to the other side.

And I think it's absurd to actually go as far as to say that moving forward to the dead zone doesn't count as approaching. If she has to do it to get in range to hurt Fox or to stop him from doing something then it should still count as part of her overall approach.

So much of this match up is being over complicated. And I feel that alot of time and space has been wasted in this discussion so I think it would be nice at this point if we either moved on to a different subject or a different character altogether.

If anyone has anything further to say to me regarding this post talk to me about it on AIM because it's pointless to bicker about something so stupid here and waste time.

 

[Lightning93]

Experience gives you knowing, not knowledge. Technically, something as useless as Fox's f-tilt comes into the theorycrafting of matchups (which for some odd reason I see happening), when in reality, who uses it? In this matchup, I'm going to be running around SHDL, and waiting for an opportunity to punish, mostly with OoS options. Fox's new JJC tech helps in this case, so there really is no need to f-tilt at all. Also, if Zelda is going to be hitting me in shield with moves that push me too far back, Fox has enough speed to find some alternate routes. The problem with theory is that in matchups that are near even, you can find anyway to counter your opponent, and if in discussion your side suggests more, you give yourself a false advantage.

I'm not saying theorycrafting is bad, just saying that experience can't be ignored. I haven't read the past pages due to lack of time, so don't flame me if I'm being redundant or missed something.

EDIT: Sorry this was supposed to be after Darkmusician's first post on this page.

 

[Brinzy]

What is JJC tech?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

jab jab cancel, it can lead to lots of fun things......and one of the few things i can do with Fox without whiffing it up >.>

 

[Darkmusician]

In this matchup, I'm going to be running around SHDL, and waiting for an opportunity to punish, mostly with OoS options.

Yeah that's pretty much what I do when I use Fox vs Zelda.

A few questions I have since you main fox are.

-What's going through your mind vs Zelda as you run around with spaced laser fire? What is your thought process as you do this in terms of spacing and baiting and what are you looking for. And when Zelda does screw up (bound to happen especially against those that don't fight Foxes on the daily) what do you like to punish with at low percent to get a good string of hits going?

-I've found myself going dash attack to uptilt to upsmash or something like that alot since the dash attack beats Zelda before she can do a F-smash. Is the dash as good of a mix up as it seems because of its speed or should I be more conservative? Again I might be getting away with stuff that don't work once the match up is more familiar.

-I've been liking his Nair since it can eat dins pretty efficiently. Fire proof bootys lolz
Can you share your thoughts on the nair and when Fox is most likely to use it?

Thank you for adding your thoughts.

 

[Timbers]

It seemed like the people who were supporting the "getting into deadzone=/= approach" were under the impression that Fox is just going to stand there and spam lasers until you're in melee range :| Fox can do a lot of stupid annoying **** out of SHDL/SHL and isn't going to just let you walk straight into his face.

I've been liking his Nair since it can eat dins pretty efficiently. Fire proof bootys lolz

oh wow I love this lolol

 

[Darkmusician]

Lol thanks Timbers. It's too bad that when Fox nairs Zelda can just burn any part above his waist. xD

But yeah I likes my random Fire Proof Bootys. :3

 

[adumbrodeus]

Doesn't make a difference really if Zelda can move from full stage to the "dead zone" or w/e easily or not.

Fox can just wait for Zelda to do something and punish. Even with spaced smashes or short hopped air attacks Fox can run in and retaliate quite efficiently. Yea the stage has edges so he can't go back in one direction forever,

Maybe not to the match-up number, but it definitely makes a difference in how the match-up should be approached.

but it's no problem for Fox to go around Zelda and head back to the other side.

Really? Moving through characters or above characters tends to a be difficult strategic position in general.

And I think it's absurd to actually go as far as to say that moving forward to the dead zone doesn't count as approaching. If she has to do it to get in range to hurt Fox or to stop him from doing something then it should still count as part of her overall approach.

As I explained before, using it that way results in people saying, "Zelda has to approach, and all Zelda's approaches are unsafe". Granted, you can extend approach to mean that, but it's confusing the smash community in general because of the way "approach" is generally used.

So much of this match up is being over complicated. And I feel that alot of time and space has been wasted in this discussion so I think it would be nice at this point if we either moved on to a different subject or a different character altogether.

When done right, match-ups are complicated.

If anyone has anything further to say to me regarding this post talk to me about it on AIM because it's pointless to bicker about something so stupid here and waste time.

You're assuming that responses to your post are just for your benefit. If you disagree, but don't feel like responding, that's your choice, then this post becomes for the benefit of the overall discussion.

Experience gives you knowing, not knowledge. Technically, something as useless as Fox's f-tilt comes into the theorycrafting of matchups (which for some odd reason I see happening), when in reality, who uses it? In this matchup, I'm going to be running around SHDL, and waiting for an opportunity to punish, mostly with OoS options. Fox's new JJC tech helps in this case, so there really is no need to f-tilt at all. Also, if Zelda is going to be hitting me in shield with moves that push me too far back, Fox has enough speed to find some alternate routes. The problem with theory is that in matchups that are near even, you can find anyway to counter your opponent, and if in discussion your side suggests more, you give yourself a false advantage.

I'm not saying theorycrafting is bad, just saying that experience can't be ignored. I haven't read the past pages due to lack of time, so don't flame me if I'm being redundant or missed something.

Perhaps it should?

If it has attributes that make it useful in this match-up, but generally speaking it's useless, then isn't that the point of theorycrafting in general, finding weaknesses in used options and recognizing ignored ones?


This is not a near even match-up, this is definately fox's advantage.

That said, if people limit bias and everyone sticks to the attributes, that should be dealt with. Empirical match-ups have a similar issue after all, a better player can often tip match-up perceptions.

It seemed like the people who were supporting the "getting into deadzone=/= approach" were under the impression that Fox is just going to stand there and spam lasers until you're in melee range :| Fox can do a lot of stupid annoying **** out of SHDL/SHL and isn't going to just let you walk straight into his face.

Really? Who said that? My personal assertion was that Zelda only has to approach to there but I implied that fox is better there anyway (since everybody seems more concerned about shouting about expirience then talking about the match-up, we never really got a chance to discuss it in depth). Nobody else with a similar line of reasoning implied either way.



Regardless, the deadzone is NOT melee range. It's "range where lasering can be punished", but not in fox's safe melee range.

 

[Darkmusician]

Wall of text

Not easy for Fox to move around Zelda? Sure it is. Fox is plenty quick compared to Zelda. He has no problems getting past her. I mean yeah sure if you position yourself then yeah you might be able to box out Fox but on most stages I see no problem with runny away with Fox. If I were Fox I'd already be expecting Zelda to approach anyway so I'm usually ready to move around.

Even if Zelda is in such a position where Fox's melee attacks won't hit this doesn't really intimidate Fox. She moves from full stage to Fox's Dead Zone. Oh well Fox was expecting an approach and has other options anyway. The difference in speed is so big that Fox can close the gap in a second. Even with Zelda's spaced smashes/tilts Fox can react to what move it is and time his run in and start attacking. Even if Zelda tries to space and zone Fox can disrupt her spacing so easily with his quick movement and better options as a character overall.

And no I don't think that your replies to my posts are just for personal benefit. I normally never suggest personal messaging for anything. Although at this point I don't think anyone is really benefitting. Your points have all been beaten to death and it makes no sense for people to read pages and pages of this silliness. I don't really care either way. If you want to keep talking then so will I. I am here to help after all.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Not easy for Fox to move around Zelda? Sure it is. Fox is plenty quick compared to Zelda. He has no problems getting past her. I mean yeah sure if you position yourself then yeah you might be able to box out Fox but on most stages I see no problem with runny away with Fox. If I were Fox I'd already be expecting Zelda to approach anyway so I'm usually ready to move around.

RELATIVELY SPEAKING.

Relative to other strategic situations in the match-up.

That said, the fact that Zelda really isn't that good at boxing fox in is part of the reason why it's a bad match-up for Zelda. It's not that she lacks the tools however, it's that if she's successfully baited, getting past her is incredibly easy.

Even if Zelda is in such a position where Fox's melee attacks won't hit this doesn't really intimidate Fox. She moves from full stage to Fox's Dead Zone. Oh well Fox was expecting an approach and has other options anyway. The difference in speed is so big that Fox can close the gap in a second. Even with Zelda's spaced smashes/tilts Fox can react to what move it is and time his run in and start attacking. Even if Zelda tries to space and zone Fox can disrupt her spacing so easily with his quick movement and better options as a character overall.

The point is that Zelda isn't committed to an approach option, that entire discussion was not intended to prove any other point. Realistically a lot of what actually occurred during the discussion occurred probably because people assumed that it implied something else.


What you said right there is pretty much the reason why Fox has the advantage in the match-up overall, in spite of the lack of the forced approach on Zelda's part. He still does better with baiting and punishing however, because of Zelda's general high priority.

And no I don't think that your replies to my posts are just for personal benefit. I normally never suggest personal messaging for anything. Although at this point I don't think anyone is really benefitting. Your points have all been beaten to death and it makes no sense for people to read pages and pages of this silliness. I don't really care either way. If you want to keep talking then so will I. I am here to help after all.

How so?

You just admitted the only thing that I was trying to get across, that Zelda is not forced to go through fox's safe melee zone, just into his projectile dead zone.

You seem to be assuming I'm attempting to use this to prove some kind of advantage on Zelda's part, that is absolutely not the case, quite the contrary in fact.

Since what I was attempting to establish seems to be established, I suggest we move on to what actually happens in this situation, fair enough?

 

[Darkmusician]

Another wall of text

You've established your point a long time ago. I get what your saying and there is some truth to it in theory. I've just been trying to correct the parts I feel are incorrect. It's obvious that no agreement is going to be made on anything so I'm all for moving on to talking about something else as well.

Zelda will have to go into Fox's close combat zone eventually. Spacing smashes and never going all the way up to him is silly. The lack of safe lasers in the dead zone is nothing to Fox against Zelda.

Approaching into dead zone or w/e it's all part of the process of getting to Fox so it's still approaching to me.

Zelda can't really hold Fox in the dead zone anyway. He's too fast and Zelda is really easy to bait and punish.

Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Timbers]

Really? Who said that? My personal assertion was that Zelda only has to approach to there but I implied that fox is better there anyway (since everybody seems more concerned about shouting about expirience then talking about the match-up, we never really got a chance to discuss it in depth). Nobody else with a similar line of reasoning implied either way.



Regardless, the deadzone is NOT melee range. It's "range where lasering can be punished", but not in fox's safe melee range.

Nobody said that, which is why I said it "seemed" like such.


The range where "lasering can be punished" is a gigantic variable depending on how Fox is controlling his SHDL/SHL and what his next move will be upon landing. Whether Zelda is approaching Fox or the deadzone, she's still approaching Fox, as Fox controls where both he and this deadzone will be, not Zelda. If Fox were a super slow character I'd be more inclined to support this deadzone stuff, but Fox is not slow lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the only reason Adumbrodeus said that it's not "approaching" was because DM said that zelda couldn't get into the deadzone well becuase, as we know, she's bad at approaching. or something like that. The fact was that the part of approaching that Zelda is bad at isn't the same part that was being described. So, is it approaching, yes. but it's confusingly vague to say so.

 

[MrEh]

I suggest we move on to what actually happens in this situation

This happens.

Fox runs away and shoots more lasers. If I'm Fox and a Zelda has cornered me at the ledge, what do you think I'm going to do? Am I going to freak out because "OH NOES! ZELDA REACHED THE DEAD ZONE! MY CAMPING I USELESS NOW!" Or am I just going to laugh? I'm going to laugh, because Zelda is slow and predictable, and even when cornered at the ledge, I can see countless ways for Fox to get past her and camp again.

Even if Fox doesn't make camping a priority, he can always just run away, pelt you with lasers, and force an approach again. Laser's as free damage is nice, but lasers forcing an approach is even better, because Zelda's approach sucks and is super punishable.

 

[Lightning93]

^Yes.

Anyways, what I see happening now is discussion over technicalities, when I think what the community really wants right now are concrete numbers. What was the agreed ratio?

I could go into dash attack vs. n-air, or what's going through my mind as I space SHDL, but all of it is extremely situational, and this is where I find experience being your best friend. This is why I don't feel I have much else to say besides the post above me.

Thanks everyone, I think this matchup needed a little re-working from what the Fox boards concluded.

 

[Darkmusician]

It's fine. I'm always interested in player style preference and personal mindgames so that's why I asked. Thanks.

 

[Lightning93]

No problem, if you really wanted to know I could go more in depth, but for this discussion's sake I think it would be a more private messaging matter. If you ever want to know more about Fox we can always play or talk sometime.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I like fighting foxes as zelda... really. Reason being, in my experience, one of two things will happen: I'll have an aggro fox and it'll be a fun matchup where I feel that zelda has a noticeable edge...... or I'll get a campy fox who is no fun to play as zelda, so I'll press down+B and sheik it to death.

A campy fox vs. Zelda just isn't a matchup I play often because I'll honourably eschew sheik tilt locks if he eschews laser camping... but if he gets gay and non-fun, I'll go right back at him with a greater degree of gay.

And in a winner-take-all, no-holds-barred atmosphere of a tourney, where one does whatever it takes to win.... there will probably be sheik right off the bat, or zelda on luigi's (where not banned).

 

[Lightning93]

Well, I guess you could say Zelda has an adv. if Fox is the one approaching, but even then it's only slight.