Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[RoyalBlood]

Actually arrows are the hardest projectile to time Din's with >.> Din's large hitbox makes it easy and TL won't be spamming projectiles at close range with Zelda....or will he? o.o

So Wolf is 55:45 Wolf right? ;D

Bombs and Boomerang can be seen from a mile away >_< Arrows are the problem, especially with QD :/

Oh well

Info like the TL one =D ...... ;__; with info. FROM the other posters of course and the thread ;D

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

that takes SO long to type XD

 

[Villi]

I think Sheik does much better in this match than Zelda does. Sheik actually has the speed to get around and punish TL's projectiles, as well as beat him in the air. Because of her speed, she's also allowed to keep more distance from TL while still being able to approach and punish.

Zelda is like a whale in this match-up. Because she's so slow and there's so much going on, she needs to keep control of the center of the stage. Counterspamming TL doesn't make for a fun battle at all, and Naryu's can definitely be baited and punished if you intend to use it.

Power shielding is definitely the better option to use against TL's projectiles. If you keep him at mid range, you can punish the lag of his b moves after perfect shielding them. His bombs will bounce off your shield, and after that they won't harm anyone until they hit the ground. You can catch them with the z-button and c-stick thow them back at him. The only time I would use Naryu's against his projectiles is when the boomerang is coming back from behind you -- it will go straight through you and hit TL.

A lot like Marth, he can space you out with nairs and bairs, but he can't approach you with them unless he wants to eat an up smash or lightning kick out of shield. He also has very laggy smashes which can be punished at close range. Dsmash hands down beats anything he can do to you close range, and dtilt is as fast as his jab. Dsmashes are your friend in this match as they put TL in a position to be edge guarded/spiked.

If TL didn't have his projectiles, the match would be in Zelda's favor. He has no really safe approaches. His zair is kind of annoying, but his follow-ups can be avoided and occasionally punished (zair to grab) if they whiff. At close range, Zelda wins on the ground against him both grounded and aerial. His projectiles make things more difficult because they allow him to rack up damage, keep his kill moves fresh, and run away to a safe place all at the same time.

It's necessary for Zelda to control the spacing in the matchup. Toon Link can run away from her, but he will have a very difficult time crossing her up without being punished. At mid-range where you'll want to keep him, Zelda does have options against his projectiles. Powershield to dash attacks/grabs work well enough. She can also mix in dtilt locks which can do very good damage to TL and set him up for a dsmash to spike. TL also has a pretty wide frame for a little guy making him a not-too-difficult lightning kick target. He can be hit with a rising bair.

I'm inclined to think this is 55-45 in Zelda's favor because TL can make things very difficult with his projectiles. Zelda has the option to trade hits in a projectile match, but also a few methods of punishing his projectiles at mid range. She also has more and faster killing options than TL and an edge guard advantage.

 

[Brinzy]

Bleh, since when did Zelda get so many disadvantageous matchups? Oh well.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Bleh, since when did Zelda get so many disadvantageous matchups? Oh well.

slightly disadvataged isn't tat bad.

 

[Brinzy]

I never mentioned if it was bad or really bad. All I said is that she has received many disadvantageous match-ups lately all across the forum.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Because people subestimate Zelda >:D
Also Sonic, you mentioned your reasons to losing to TL (<.< grammar) in your post so ... D: it shouldn't be 55:45 TL =/

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Because people subestimate Zelda >:D
Also Sonic, you mentioned your reasons to losing to TL (<.< grammar) in your post so ... D: it shouldn't be 55:45 TL =/

yeah, but I also think that I should have had enough skill to overcome those faults if toonie wasn't truly a problem.

Regardless, I submit that the number given by Ankoku's thread (70:30 Zelda) is WAAAAY far off.

 

[-Mars-]

Bleh, since when did Zelda get so many disadvantageous matchups? Oh well.

Lack of approaches, recovery issues, difficulties with the camping game of Brawl. If she didn't have as many, she would be seen a lot more in tournaments. Also, we have been discussing the higher characters in the game so of course the general consensus will be against Zelda.

 

[sniperworm]

I don't have any real experience versus TL. All I can provide is some food for thought.

In Hawaii (as far as I know), there's only one good TL main. In the only tournament I played against him (he knows I use Zelda) he used Peach and Wolf (no TL at all). That probably says something about the matchup between Zelda and TL.

On the other hand, the only Zelda I've seen him play was Darkmusician (I've seen them play more than once). In every set I witnessed, DM won, but most games were really close (and many of them it looked like TL should've won except that he had a really hard time killing). And DM is the better player out of the two, so you can draw whatever conclusions you want to from that as well.

I know personal experience isn't really supposed to count for matchups but it's just interesting to think about.

 

[ProBrawler]

I've faced a TL quite often, so here are some of my thoughts. My general strategy against TL sorta incorporates a lot of what StH said is his large post above. I prefer to use a combination of Sheik and Zelda (although I do that almost always, it works especially well against TL IMO). Perhaps a good strategy is to counterpick levels against TL. These would be the same levels you would use against any projectile user. Personally, I love PS1, but that's just me. I would suggest only using aerials for mindgames. TL out prioritizes/ranges most of Zelda's aerials. Therefore, keep the match on the ground as much as possible. Sheik's dsmash works wonders btw. Oh, I actually have a recorded match against a respectable TL, I'll try to get that up ASAP.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've faced a TL quite often, so here are some of my thoughts. My general strategy against TL sorta incorporates a lot of what StH said is his large post above. I prefer to use a combination of Sheik and Zelda (although I do that almost always, it works especially well against TL IMO). Perhaps a good strategy is to counterpick levels against TL. These would be the same levels you would use against any projectile user. Personally, I love PS1, but that's just me. I would suggest only using aerials for mindgames. TL out prioritizes/ranges most of Zelda's aerials. Therefore, keep the match on the ground as much as possible. Sheik's dsmash works wonders btw. Oh, I actually have a recorded match against a respectable TL, I'll try to get that up ASAP.

OMG could you? that would be just peachy!

you rock.

 

[SinkingHigher]

OMG could you? that would be just peachy!

you rock.

Now now Victoria, don't forget your tea and crumpets.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

So Wolf is 55:45 Wolf right? ;D

I think it would be safe to put that as the matchup percentage for now, its definitely better than the question mark given that people are pretty close in agreement.

 

[ProBrawler]

OMG could you? that would be just peachy!

you rock.

No problem, I'll try to do it in the next couple of days. Just have to find a way to put it up on YouTube. Although it was online (though lag wasn't all too bad) and I'm MUCH better now, this was about a month ago.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i was not hear for the ic vs zelda talk but 70:30 zelda is wrong
i know and play often a guy who can 0 to death grab me there is no way out of it and he succeeds at least 80% of the time. So if we are counting the grab in this matchup i would give ic's the advantage if we are not counting the grab then the 70/30 makes sense

 

[RoyalBlood]

We ARE counting the grab D= If you just based the CG for the match-up, then IC would have the advantage over everyone and be top top tier :3 It's that Zelda is very very very hard to grab with the IC

Anyway TL please

 

[Sosuke]

Ask me anything about the matchup. >_>;
I might post some huge post explaining everything a little later.

 

[Villi]

How would TL go about winning?

 

[Sosuke]

Staying up close and not using as many projectiles as against other characters, because of NL(Thats the name for it right? Or was that her Up-B?). Using Zair a lot and poking at Zelda. Trying to gimp her recovery and tether hog occasionally. TL would try to avoid/ take advantage of Din's fire with projectiles. Keep Zelda above him with bombs and Uair. Smash DI for Zelda is always a must. Zair to keep her running Usmash away. Just generally stay in the air and use a lot of airials. Try to finish with a Usmash/Fsmash.


At least thats what I'd do.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Nayru's love is actually not too threatening unless the toon link is being stupid with his projectiles, and I haven't seen Zair used effectively at all against Zelda. feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think it's a gamewinning move in the matchup.

 

[Sosuke]

It all just depends on how you use it. A lot of players don't take enough advantage of Zair.
Playing smart, you just sorta want it to hit from a 45 degree angle from Zelda. Out of the way of her Fsmash and Usmash, then maybe follow with bombs/grab/whatever.
Zair to just out of Zelda's range.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

to me, Zair just says "please lightning kick me if I miss or you sheild"

though I suppose Zelda has a lot of options for punishment of a wiff. not just LKs.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

sorry to bring it back to the ic's but they can grb very well b/c there are f-ing two of them but i think if you count the grab i don't see how zelda have have the advantage or at least i don't see how the advantage is that big

 

[-Mars-]

Sasuke, what's your feeling on the matchup as of right now before we get deeper into it?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sorry to bring it back to the ic's but they can grb very well b/c there are f-ing two of them but i think if you count the grab i don't see how zelda have have the advantage or at least i don't see how the advantage is that big

they have awful gab range mate.

the reason ICs are ranked as high as they are is largely due to the fact that you CONSTANTLY have to fear getting grabbed so long as both ICs are alive. This forces you off your game insofar as you have to fight at a larger distance which puts most characters at a disadvantage because they don't like being there.

the problem is, Zelda LIKES being there. She beats the ICs handily at that range and has plenty else going for her in the matchup. She is a ***** for them to try and grab and, if they relentlessly go for it, they are putting THEMSELVES at a disadvantage

 

[-Mars-]

Dtilt and fsmash can pretty much keep the ice climbers away with no problem. Icies actually have to play a real Brawl match against Zelda....gasp!

 

[Sosuke]

If lightening kick works, idk. I haven't been hit by one in that kind of situation. But I dont know how Zelda plays very well, so if it works, go for it.

Sasuke, what's your feeling on the matchup as of right now before we get deeper into it?

60-40 Zelda
But don't ask me, I always give the other charecter the advantage.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

LKs should be pretty much out of the equation. Toon Link is tiny as hell. You won't be landing one on a good TL unless he whiffs a u-air.

I think NL is actually pretty useful in this matchup, mostly for the arrows and boomerang. Spot dodges will be your best friend (especially her dtilt and dsmash). I think Zelda can dair Tlink right out of his up+b? It's hard but I think it can be done.

Zelda's ground game is superior but Tlink's air game knocks her out of the water. I would call the matchup an even 50:50.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

LKs should be pretty much out of the equation. Toon Link is tiny as hell. You won't be landing one on a good TL unless he whiffs a u-air.

we were dicussing that Zelda can easily LK Toonie if he whiffs a Zair, not using them often throughout a standard match

 

[VietGeek]

Toon Link should be using autocanceled Zairs anyway, which means he can shield immediately after. Unless you powershield it and expect it head on, the chance of you using Fair/Bair to punish is small. Especially since I don't think the kicks can beat the shield from lagless Zair anyway.

Obviously, this makes a Zair approach extremely one-dimensional since you either autocancel or fall prey to lag. This means if a TL is consistently approaching you with airdodge cancels to Zair or not using rising aerials, he's basically using Zair most of the time.

I feel as though the fact that TL has lack of ranged moves, as well as setting up correctly to kill hurts him in this match-up. Nayru's Love is good, not as instantaneous as reflectors, but it has invincibility frames within as well. Fsmash/ftilt/jab and whatever makes it hard for TL to find a way to get in and approach, and if he fails, he's going to eat a lot of damage from Fsmash unless he has the tendency to press up, lol.

I don't think there's much else to say about this match-up lol.

As for Sheik...eh, Sheik can get through projectile walls easily and once she gets in she can rack up a lot of damage. Both characters have a terribad time at killing disregarding gimps. Both characters are quite good at gimping each other. TL loses here because once he gets in, he's not as good at making guaranteed hits to make up for his struggle to get into Sheik's range (he doesn't have any locks or anything lol). All she has to do is find an open point in the camping and dash attack TL to make it extremely one-dimensional and simplistic.

60:40 Zelda

Maybe the same for Sheik.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

we were dicussing that Zelda can easily LK Toonie if he whiffs a Zair, not using them often throughout a standard match

No, YOU were discussing that. Most toon link's can space their zairs well enough that there is NO WAY you will land an LK on him.

 

[Oh Snap]

I'm quite surprised so many ppl think Zelda has an advantage...

I usually do terrible against 'em.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

No, YOU were discussing that. Most toon link's can space their zairs well enough that there is NO WAY you will land an LK on him.

if they are poking at max range, then yeah, all Zelda can get of is probably a dash attack/grab or dins if they get predicted.

but if they are using it to approach.... well then, they are right in range

 

[Villi]

No, YOU were discussing that. Most toon link's can space their zairs well enough that there is NO WAY you will land an LK on him.

TL's zair is hardly a threat by itself. It's a set up move, not a damage racker. A common follow-up to a zair is a grab, which is punishable if it whiffs. TL is short, but he has a wide frame which is helpful in landing LKs. Anything else TL can do after he auto-cancels is completely avoidable if you expect a follow up.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Just as a general note, if you lure an enemy to the edge of the stage, you can fall and bair after a jump to sweetspot even the smallest of characters. Works quite often for me :/

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Just as a general note, if you lure an enemy to the edge of the stage, you can fall and bair after a jump to sweetspot even the smallest of characters. Works quite often for me :/

yeah. I often do that. do it a lot to get up from the ledge too.

 

[Brinzy]

Why the hell do people act like you can't ****ing LK small characters? You learn the sweetspot and it doesn't really matter after that. You just line yourself up and kick. It's not hard. It's only hard if your opponent can play a keep-away game.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Why the hell do people act like you can't ****ing LK small characters? You learn the sweetspot and it doesn't really matter after that. You just line yourself up and kick. It's not hard. It's only hard if your opponent can play a keep-away game.

it's not that you can't... it's just that it's harder and you have a much smaller margin of error.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Just as a general note, if you lure an enemy to the edge of the stage, you can fall and bair after a jump to sweetspot even the smallest of characters. Works quite often for me :/

This only works on inexperienced players. Those who know the matchup won't fall for it.

And echoing what Sonic said about smaller characters. Yes, you CAN do it, but it's much tougher to land a lightning kick on a moving D3 then a moving MK.