Yoshi+

[GHNeko]

What's the point?

 

[[TSON]]

Mindgames.

Come on, Neko, you should know this.

 

[GHNeko]

Anything can be classified under that. >_>

 

[[TSON]]

Exactly :3

Also it makes that hover glitch a bit easier, and according to the IRC, it lets you wavedash...??

 

[Cia]

By "Hover Glitch", do you mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvwlq8mW2Y8

And I'm picking up Yoshi because he takes a lot more skill to use (effectively) than any character I can think of.

 

[[TSON]]

Yes.

10yes.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I've been looking for a secondary for a while, and I think I might try Yoshi. Any staple combos/techniques I should know?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I made a thread, but I'm guessing I shoul post it here lolk here goes.

As the title suggests, I think this might be a huge step forward in Yoshi+'s metagame. I call it the

AIEDAELIAN JUMP CANCEL​

Yes. I actually named it after myself. Please note that I did searching for this and didn't find anything that said anything about this. If it's known, then I just wasted about two days of my life reseaching this and writing this up. Anyhow, on to details.

What is Aiedaelian Jump Cancelling?
Aiedaelian Jump Cancelling, or AJC for short, is simply an exploitation of Brawl's physics and the latest Double Jump Cancel code. So, in layman's terms, a glitch.

How Was AJC Discovered?
Corneria is my favorite stage, because of the fact that the slope formed by the fin allows for many interesting things. I had noticed earilier that if you use Yoshi's second jump torward the fin, it will be cancelled by the change in elevation. I researched it more, and came to this conclusion: the second jump is cancelled becuase near the beginning, Yoshi is boosted down a bit. I decided to apply this to a flat surface and DJC, and that is how I stumbled upon AJC.

What Exactly Are The Mechanics Behind AJC?
AJC, like I stated earlier, is caused by exploiting Brawl's physics engine and the latest DJC code. When you use Yoshi's second jump, regardless if you do so in vanilla Brawl or any other version, or if you DJC, Yoshi gets ushed down a bit before rising up. This explains why Yoshi's second jump can be cancelled by a change in elevation: his hurtbox comes in contact with a surface, and so the game makes Yoshi land.

However, if you Double Jump Cancel, that makes it different. When you DJC, you still get boosted down a bit, but, since you used an aerial to cancel your jump, your upward momentum is stopped and you begin to fall. But, since this is so close to the ground, the game doesn't have enough time to process the data and cancel Yoshi's aerial input, and instead put him in a position that allows him to be airborne as soon as possible. So, Yoshi enters a kind of limbo where he's supposed to be grounded, but he's stuck in his second jump's falling animation.

How Is The AJC Performed?
There are two methods used to perform the AJC. One method is easier than the other.

Method One-Grounded
There are actually two variations to this method, the one with which AJC was discovered, and one I discovered today, although they are basically the same.

Method 1a: Single Jump->Yoshi begins to descend->As soon as Yoshi is about to hit the ground, use your double jump and instantly cancel it with either a Z-airdodge or and aerial, although Nair and Fair are by far the most efficeint ones. If you did it right, then Profit: you just performed the Aiedaelian Jump Cancel.

Method 1b: Please note I was only able to do this in Slo-Mo Brawl; Single Jump->Instant Double Jump->Z-airdodge or aerial. This, if mastered in a standard Brawl, could be the most influencing and advantageous one. It eliminates all the time you need to take to single jump then fall and melds it into one fluid movement.

Method Two-Platform

This method is by far the easiest and most reliable way to perform the AJC.
Stand under a platform->Single Jump->Double jump through the platform->DJC with either a Z-airdodge or an aerial as soon as Yoshi's feet start coming onto the surface of the platform.

I'd recommend using the airdodge for this, because it's the safest option.

So What The Hell Does The AJC Do?!
Yes, enough tarrying. I shall now tell you the mystical powers of the Aiedaelian Jump Cancel. Since the game puts Yoshi in an indefinite second jump falling animation as close to the ground as possible, Yoshi floats. Yes, floats. Exactly like Peach's float. So, Yoshi has all of his aerial options open. Specials, aerials, airdodges, and best of all, drift. When you are falling normally, drift is what lets you move slightly to the left or right when falling. When you AJC, it lets you float greatly, because of Yoshi's supreme aerial movement. Also, since it is the falling animation from your second jump, you retain all of its Super Armor. If I recall correctly, it is commonly beleived that there are Super Armor frames. But, this disproves that. Yoshi keeps all of his Super Armor. Only after taking a certain amount of damage, either from multiple or one hit, will he flinch, or, if he is at a high damage percentage. This shows that Super Armor isn't measured in frames, but percents.

Also, an interesting thing to do with AJC is reversing it. It is exactly like a B-Reversal, minus the special. So you would simply execute all the commands you normally would to do the AJC, but right when you are about to "land", hit the control stick in the opposite direction. This will give Yoshi an instant and significant float boost in that direction.

Also, when you are in the flapping animation of the AJC, that is, "falling", you have no control whatsoever over your movement in the y-axis. This means that you can't fastfall.

A strange thing about the AJC is that it follows the contours of the stage. I saw this when I fisrt performed it on Corneria. When I moved right torward the fin, Yoshi followed the slope up, but when I floated of the edge, Yoshi stayed in his same spot on the y-axis. When I moved back to the left, Yoshi was floating high over the initial position of where I AJC, because he had moved up when traversing the fin.

Please note that the AJC can be performed on any stage and on any non-damaging surface. That is, you can't AJC on Stage Builder spikes, but you can on the idle lasers of Corneria.

I have snapshots for when you are supposed to use the second jump, but cannot upload them due to not being able to locate them on my SD card. I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could tell me where.

I also have replays, but, lacking any recording material, can't upload them onto YouTube. It would also be greatly appreciated if someone could do that.

--

So, I think this will greatly improve Yoshi+'s metagame, and I think many new things about Brawl can be discovered through this. It's up to us to find them.

EDIT DAMMIT IT'S KNOWN. But I'm guessing form the vid description that it isn't known how to do this. So anyhow ya.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

By "Hover Glitch", do you mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvwlq8mW2Y8

And I'm picking up Yoshi because he takes a lot more skill to use (effectively) than any character I can think of.

lol yoshi looks like he is trying so hard to fly

 

[kciD]

Nice job. So I assume this will be fixed in the next update?

 

[shanus]

Yes, it will be fixed. Its been known since Day 1 of its release lol

 

[WheelOfFish]

I've been looking for a secondary for a while, and I think I might try Yoshi. Any staple combos/techniques I should know?

Any answers?

 

[WheelOfFish]

I hate to bump this thread but I'd love some answers.

 

[KOkingpin]

I hate to bump this thread but I'd love some answers.

a lot of yoshi's combos come from Grabs and Against fast fallers (and Heavies i think)if they DI incorrectly you can actually chain throw them. You can D-Throw into Fair Spike if you buffer the Fair spike then proceed to tech chase into another grab. It works really really well.

Bair > Uair works really well at killing percentages as does Dthrow to Uair.

Um second hit jab to grab works on Middle weights > Light weights. So DJC nair into Double Jab into Grab. You cant do that to FFers but you have a plethora of options against them.

Something else that works at low percentages is DJC Nair > UTilt > UTilt > (Follow up with tons of options)

Really using Yoshi's DJC makes him have so many options. you just gotta learn to use it correctly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Was a fix for egg lay ever decided? I always thought the opponent shouldn't have invincibility when they break out.

 

[Elefterios]

Was a fix for egg lay ever decided? I always thought the opponent shouldn't have invincibility when they break out.

I did bring it up once before but my post was ignored.

What needs improvement are yoshi's roll and his egg lay. His roll should be sped up a tiny bit just to keep up with fast characters like fox and falco. Egg lay is a bit of a harder fix. obviously, i would love to be able to just combo out of it. But that might be a too much too soon of a buff.

Here are some problems i have with egg lay.
- Deals only 7%
- When opponent is in the egg, attacks are being reduced to a bit less than 40%. Egg lay to up air only des 13% together, where just an upair alone does the same amount of damage (and can combo!).
- The egg is easily DI-able
- Invincibility frames are given when opponent breaks out of the egg
- Opponent can break out of egg and punish you before or after you try to follow up. I play this one toon link player pretty often. whenever i'd egg lay him, he'd wait till i upair him before breaking out of the egg and dairing me right after. The risk reward for that move is poor.

I would be happy if the people in charge would come up with an answer for egg lay. Even if it's just a little one like bumping it from 7% to 10%.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I know Yoshi is insanely good right now, but I wish egg lay didn't suck so much. Pretty much everything Elefterios said.

But yeah, definitely thinking Yoshi will be a secondary.

 

[Kaotical]

Any answers?

Yoshi is great at killing off the top because of so many ways he can lead into an u-air, or even 2 u-airs. The most basic one is grab (or pivot grab) -> d-throw -> u-air. Ridiculously hard to DI out of...your opponent has to mix-up the DI to not get hit by the oncoming u-air.

Against fast-fallers, now cuz he has DJC back (hellz yeah), if you can catch them with an u-tilt then you can DJC u-air a whole bunch of times if you're good at DJC, which then leads into other things of course like maybe an up-smash. Then again I really abuse the DJC.

If you know a character is coming in with an aerial that isn't really strong, DJC into it and n-air them. DJC is great for shield pressure. Plus now with his DJC Yoshi is way more maneuverable. Abuse it. For people who abuse their shield against you, DJC neutral-B. Yes they need to improve that move, but it's still good against people who are trying to block your flurry of DJC airs. ETS (Egg Toss Slide) is still viable too. Egg -> u-smash!

P.S. = Hopefully I'll be getting some Yoshi vids up soon. I don't see enough people using DJC.

 

[KOkingpin]

http://www.youtube.com/user/GameGalaxyBrawl

check out some of my yoshi matches. they are pretty good.

 

[Kaotical]

http://www.youtube.com/user/GameGalaxyBrawl

check out some of my yoshi matches. they are pretty good.

*Subscribed*

Not bad, sir. Needs more eggs yo. And b-air.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Oh, for those who don't know, you can DJC airdodge with Z.

I actually thought up a pretty good use for this immediately after finding this out (which was about a couple of minutes ago, and I've already tested it, to make sure that it works).
With this, it essentially allows Yoshi to ledge hop without having to go really high or do an attack (aerials have landing lag, in cases where you don't want landing lag when ledge hopping). It actually adds something to Yoshi's game, so if ever anyone decides to take it out of B+, please don't.

Also, maybe it's just me, but all Yoshi colors having a green egg is kind of dumb... With that, I actually bothered to make texture .pcs files for all Yoshi colors, only changing his egg color to match his body color (tested multiple times to make sure the colors match really closely). For those that want it, HERE IT IS. Personally, I think this should be included in the B+ official team textures batch, since it just looks better. Shield release animation still has shards of a green egg, though, but that can't be changed separately for each color of Yoshi.

 

[kyubikirby]

With a new version of B+ out I thought we should discuss changes both good and bad that we've encountered. I recently picked up yoshi and realized that, while most say that yoshi should always be played with tap jump off (reasonable considering meteor canceling) I found that with careful movements of the joystick one can slide one way while tossing an egg in the other. This process is made simpler by leaving tap jump on as you jump-cancel into the move, keeping your momentum from the run.

This can be done with tap jump off, but in order to make the timing reasonable, you need to set another button than x/y to jump (I see yoshi players in vBrawl use L trigger for this)

One can use this to either escape from your opponent while protecting yourself, or if you space it right, you can set up an edgehog with it by sliding past the ledge slightly. Also with the incerased hitstun one can actually combo off of a connected one, or rush in to apply shield pressure/grab on a blocked one making it a very safe move to use often.

With that said, I'm still alittle new to yoshi in this version, but hes looking to be a defensive beast to me.

 

[Kaotical]

With a new version of B+ out I thought we should discuss changes both good and bad that we've encountered. I recently picked up yoshi and realized that, while most say that yoshi should always be played with tap jump off (reasonable considering meteor canceling) I found that with careful movements of the joystick one can slide one way while tossing an egg in the other. This process is made simpler by leaving tap jump on as you jump-cancel into the move, keeping your momentum from the run.

This can be done with tap jump off, but in order to make the timing reasonable, you need to set another button than x/y to jump (I see yoshi players in vBrawl use L trigger for this)

One can use this to either escape from your opponent while protecting yourself, or if you space it right, you can set up an edgehog with it by sliding past the ledge slightly. Also with the incerased hitstun one can actually combo off of a connected one, or rush in to apply shield pressure/grab on a blocked one making it a very safe move to use often.

That technique of sliding while throwing the egg is called Egg-Toss Sliding (ETS), and that's what you see people doing in vBrawl. ETS is definitely a good technique for Yoshi and it is more useful with tap-jump on.

Instead of using tap-jump, I keep it off. Whenever Yoshi is running (not dash-dancing) it's really easy to use ETS without tap-jump. Just run and up-b. That's what I do, because I really don't like tap-jump for my DJC stuff. More control for me that way. So the only downside while I'm using ETS is I can't pull it off as soon as I could with tap-jump on.

 

[Deleted member]

In vbrawl, most good yoshi players set L or R to jump, and use that to jump cancel the egg toss.

 

[Kaotical]

In vbrawl, most good yoshi players set L or R to jump, and use that to jump cancel the egg toss.

I'd have to set it to L if anything. I'm already "programmed" with R.

 

[bigman40]

Or you can just, you know, practice it w/o having L/R as jump. A lot of people that play vbrawl are lazy as **** when it comes to learning ATs w/o needing to change every button on their controller for something.

 

[Swordplay]

I play Yoshi, Link and a few others....(I picked up yoshi for the VB MK matchup and never stopped playing)

If I didn't play DAC characters like Link I would have set R to jump but since I do. I have R set to attack for DAC but I also have X set to special. it allows smooth JC eggs from Y to X. Very strange button setup but it really works if you got quick fingers.

=========

Edit I was playing more yoshi yesterday with my friend. He is so good. you can get a few frames of invincibility on a double jump and cancel it into a bair combo. Combine that with his nair and you have possibly one of the best approaches.

 

[Kaotical]

Either way, Yoshi is very solid in the current version of B+. DJC, ETS, enhanced recovery via side-B, 2x shield speed, solid aerial moves, awesome pivot grab, good mix-ups...very solid.

I'd also have to say that his best stage is a toss-up between Yoshi's Island and WarioWare. Both stages let Yoshi abuse his "wall-bombing" w/ side-B. The lip on either side of Yoshi's Island let's him do some extra tricksies, most notably w/ down-B. However, with WarioWare it's easy to DJC u-air combo opponents to death ladder-style. There are more points to make my decision from than just these 2, but still I'm not exactly sure which is better for Yoshi. They're both good for him.

 

[[TSON]]

Made a Yoshi "texture-hack" for eggs that makes them explode and have a fiery trail : D

http://www.mediafire.com/?m0adj0ruj2m

Enjoy~

EDIT: Wrong link before, fixed.

 

[Alphatron]

Nice. Yoshi needs some ****** cosmetics once in a while.

Anyone who finds any possible way to give him Yoshi's Island styled eggs(eggs follow him around like pikmin. He can aim them and they fly in one direction) will get my soul offered to them as an eternal slave.

 

[[TSON]]

Guys, I found a way to make Melee eggs. They keep going until they hit something (a wall or a person). This is a nerf and a buff in one. It should make long distance eggs more rewarding if aimed correctly but it makes shorter range eggs less effective for airdodge and roll punishing. This would come with a buff probably to damage or power or something for compensation. I told Cape about it, and if you approve of it, it's as good as in. What do you say to that?

 

[The Cape]

I think this would be a good Yoshi change, but I want to hear what the Yoshi mains think of it. Give your opinions here and I can work out something for the eggs to keep them worthwhile (maybe a few more percent).

Good work TSON

 

[[TSON]]

If you want to play around with it and see what it is like, you can download here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?2umxrzyzw2o

EDIT: Oops, wrong link lmfao. Fix'd.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I'm no Yoshi main, but I do love Yoshi and enjoy playing as him. I think that sounds like a great idea for his eggs!

Was anything done about his Neutral-B giving an opponent invincibility after he eats them? Someone said before that with the amount of invincibility frames the opponent gets when they pop out of an egg, they should be able to be fully safe to counter Yoshi. That's if the Yoshi decides to attack them.

Oh, and I think someone should texture Yoshi's eggs, at least his Up-B eggs, to be rainbow dotted, so it would be fitting of all colors, sort of. =]

 

[Kaotical]

I think this would be a good Yoshi change, but I want to hear what the Yoshi mains think of it. Give your opinions here and I can work out something for the eggs to keep them worthwhile (maybe a few more percent).

Good work TSON

Well I'm a Yoshi main! Honestly, I like the eggs the way they are. The "explosion" part is helpful at close range mainly cuz of ETS. ETS is awesome for setting up kills and combos, and putting in Melee eggs would change that. ETS hit > u-smash is great as I'm sure you people have seen in vBrawl vids. If someone's above me and I choose to throw eggs I want them to serve their purpose and either hit them or be a wall. Not to mention you can choose when the eggs explode! Can't do that with Melee eggs, and I abuse that. Also, think about it for edge-guarding: if the egg misses it just trails off into oblivion not serving any purpose.

TSON said that Melee eggs are more rewarding for long distance and not-so for short distance. ETS, in my opinion, is a shorter range tactic if used right. I want my opponent to get punished if they side-step an egg and it explodes in their face; free u-smash if I'm close enough.

As long as you have a really good aim with eggs (I barely miss) then I think Brawl eggs are better. As a Yoshi main, I'm saying keep the eggs the way they are!

RPG: "Was anything done about his Neutral-B giving an opponent invincibility after he eats them?"

A: IDK! I'll look at it later, but Cape probably already knows.

 

[[TSON]]

Well I'm a Yoshi main! Honestly, I like the eggs the way they are. The "explosion" part is helpful at close range mainly cuz of ETS. ETS is awesome for setting up kills and combos, and putting in Melee eggs would change that.

Lemme tell you now. I used to play vBrawl Yoshi a LOT. I know how core ETS is. I wouldn't remove it for the world. It is still there. Even if it wasn't, this more than makes up for itself. You now have the ability to get pretty much anything out of an up-thrown egg, be it combos, mindgames, tech chasing, you have the whole entendre at your disposal. It still does **** rolls and poorly timed spotdodges but you will have to redevelop your feel to do this consistently. You have to hit the ground or the person, there is no more blindly throwing eggs, that was easy mode. You can now bomb foes from across the stage or throw eggs from the top of the screen straight down and then run over and combo them out of it. You need to test it out before you knock it, it is amazing.

ETS hit > u-smash is great as I'm sure you people have seen in vBrawl vids.

This can still be done if you read your opponent or aim correctly.

If someone's above me and I choose to throw eggs I want them to serve their purpose and either hit them or be a wall.

That's what this does. It is NUTS to know you have a ball of **** following you and if you match their momentum, you WILL hit them out of their airdodge. It is not hard at all when you have the feel for it. Remember that we're offering you more damage. More damage = more hitstun. More hitstun on eggs will be your most prized possession, eh?

Not to mention you can choose when the eggs explode! Can't do that with Melee eggs, and I abuse that. Also, think about it for edge-guarding: if the egg misses it just trails off into oblivion not serving any purpose.

You don't NEED to choose when the eggs explode! As long as you have aim and you can hit the ground near your foe, you can edgeguard and combo all you want! We aren't removing the explosion, we're just making it only happen when the egg hits something!

TSON said that Melee eggs are more rewarding for long distance and not-so for short distance. ETS, in my opinion, is a shorter range tactic if used right. I want my opponent to get punished if they side-step an egg and it explodes in their face; free u-smash if I'm close enough.

Short distance egg game is basically unchanged. Whatever you could do before you can do now with maybe 2 or 3 frames longer a wait for the hitbox to come out. I didn't mean it was bad, I meant that it wasn't changed enough to call them "amazing" closeranged. And like I said before, ETS is still in.

As long as you have a really good aim with eggs (I barely miss) then I think Brawl eggs are better. As a Yoshi main, I'm saying keep the eggs the way they are!

I know how you must feel. But please try the pac first. I am really confident that it balances itself out. If you have good or better aim then let's get rid of the easy mode and make it fun mode, eh?

 

[Kaotical]

TSON, I didn't say I wasn't gonna try it. XD

Still, you gotta think about the mindgame aspect to the Brawl eggs. I like the control I have knowing exactly where and when they're going to pop. If they're coming at me mid-air how will it help if the egg pops way after it misses them if they air-dodge? Think about it also on stages with no platforms (FD!). Many times I've thrown eggs at my opponent up and it's popped w/ perfect timing. I see what you mean about the "fun mode" and "easy mode" though, and more DMG & hitstun is always good. If it's harder to hit w/ eggs, then compensation is definitely cool. Don't wanna take away from egg combo's that are already established.

I will definitely give it a shot and think about everything you said and post my thoughts. I don't wanna just write it off as useless. And thanks for the effort for my main, TSON. Yoshi gets no love. XD

 

[[TSON]]

You can't honestly complain about missing combos. With the mindgames and strings and combos that this creates already without the damage increase... No way man. I mean like... Egg -> Grab?? You couldn't do that before!

If the egg misses, by all means, throw another! And remember that old back-angled egg? You can now make that go all the way down and combo into/out of it. This Yoshi egg tweak in general promotes creativity and discourages spamming. I think lots of characters with centralized projectiles need something like it. But even if that doesn't happen, this spawns more interesting combos and should make other characters mains go "Wow, that was a spectacular combo video! Maybe I should think about picking up Yoshi!" from all the egg shenanigans.

Maybe.

EDIT: Alternatively to the damage, we also have the ability to make the "Bursting Egg" hitbox stay out longer. Just sayin'.

 

[KOkingpin]

as long as eggs are not slow like in Melee Im all for this new Change.

 

[[TSON]]

Gravity is unchanged, so no, they aren't Melee speed.