Yet Another Bowser Matchup Thread|Week 3: Diddy/Falco

[itsthebigfoot]

The match is not in Bowser's favor, but at worst its 55:45 falco favor, falco can lock down bowser with laser's( even if your amazing at powershielding). The chaingrab to dair spike has no influence in my decision though just because u can meteor cancel it. But yes there's going to be alot of Falco's coming in here being stupid about the match before even experiencing it against good players.

yeah, dk has the same issue with falco, the difference is, falco's dead in a grab for bowser, and bowsers upb is fast enough (frame 1 invincibility) that it can break the CG if you're quick, giving the falco 20-40% for trying it. I found a whole bunch of other stupid things bowser has on falco, i'll share when it's falco time.

we almost done with gdubs? from the sound of it, it's 6:4 gdubs adv.

 

[MrEh]

But yes there's going to be alot of Falco's coming in here being stupid about the match before even experiencing it against good players.

BUT FALCO HAS THE CHAINGRAB!!!! THE MATCHUP SHOULD BE LIKE 20-80!!!!


In all seriousness though, I say we chaingrab them 2x as hard right back.

 

[ViceGrip]

just gimpyfish combo all day vs everyone.

flicking yellow stick to right or left = win

also how much damage does fsmash do? i coulda sworn i saw it do 30 sumthin dmg uncharged one time

I'm totally nubbing up this thread yay

fun to read the matchups tho. Bigfoot tell me when it gets to Ness so i can swoop in and go 'its 90000/1 in Ness's favor' <3

 

[Mmac]

K, well I'm moving on finally. Since we are getting started on Falco already, we'll do him, while I am hoping again that Diddy doesn't get completely shafted this time.

But what exactly does Bowser have on Falco that makes him so great to use against him?

 

[MrEh]

But what exactly does Bowser have on Falco that makes him so great to use against him?

I wouldn't say that Bowser does great against Falco, but it certainly isn't that of a bad matchup. It's definately one of Bowser's more fun ones though. My opinion: edgeguard the crap out of Falco.

Chaingrab the bird to the ledge, then act accordingly. Any attempt to Phantasm through Bowser will be met with Fire. Any attempt to Phantasm the ledge can be met with an Fsmash if you're crazy enough.


Oh, and don't get grabbed. XD

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Not to mention falco will rarely kill you before 170+ %

 

[Deleted member]

I cant get the chaingrab down =/
Is it a jump release Cg or no? and can someone explain the timing or something?
THe matchup seems so hard =(

Bowsers jab ***** falco tho.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I cant get the chaingrab down =/
Is it a jump release Cg or no? and can someone explain the timing or something?
THe matchup seems so hard =(

Bowsers jab ***** falco tho.

You can both ground release and jump release chaingrab him. The timing for both chaingrabs take practice.

 

[Deleted member]

I wanna try using bowser vs falcos in tournament, cuz yoshi vs falco is like yoshis hardest matchup and my least favorite, but my reaction time isnt too good. =/ Ill practice tomarrow in tournament i guess.

Vs Diddy id say its 4-6. Bowser doesnt like bananas, and he cant do as much as some characters even if he manages to get control of them. Sh air dodge to jab is very good to get past his naner defense. We beat him in most aspects besides those, not sure about grab releases on diddy. Hes not easy to edge guard, but we certainly have many options for edgeguarding him. We dont die until really late unless he lands a spike or fair offstage, and he will hopefully die early.

 

[Mmac]

Great, Burnt uses Bowser now

 

[Deleted member]

Yessir =)

On second thot, diddy is very gay.

 

[MrEh]

Bananas hurt bowser like nothing else.

Get the little ******* off the stage, that's all you can do.

 

[Popertop]

THat's not all you can do.
If you control the banana's, you control the spacing and the pace of the match.
That's how you win.
Don't **** out ever.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

infinite jump makes his bananas a little less useful, i think its a bowser advantage, if you haven't played a good diddy, you'll get *****, but once you start to learn him, i think bowser has the edge (gimps + charred bananas + upb oos = win)

falco is an odd matchup, if you grab him, gg, you win, if he grabs you, you have a 1 frame escape option with upb (marth and mk are the only other 2 who can do this), if you hit the escape option, it'll sweetspot your aerial upb, and falco will take somewhere between 26-45% depending on DI. lasers hurt though. also, falcos dash attack and dash grab are shortranged, with some decent ending lag. if you don't know what that means, you need more fsmash as a reaction to approaches.

also, running attack and dsmash will both beat falcos sideb if they are active, meaning he can't sideb onto the stage, and has to sweetspot the ledge.

the more i look into the match, the more i think bowser advantage, but lasers are dumb

 

[Popertop]

yeah, there's a really good Falco as part of our crew, and lazers are the biggest thing.
I hadn't looked into UP-b out of the chaingrab that much, but now I'm going to start looking into the matchup a little more.

Also, Firebreath ***** side-B.

 

[MrEh]

If you control the banana's, you control the spacing and the pace of the match.

No competent Diddy will let you do that. It's ossible, but it's much harder for you to pick up the nanners then it is for him.

Also, Firebreath ***** side-B.

That's why trying to Phantasm through Bowser is useless. Just blow fire when he's off the ledge.

I hadn't looked into UP-b out of the chaingrab that much, but now I'm going to start looking into the matchup a little more.

Well, it works fairly well on MK, considering how light he is. Chaingrab into fortress is surprising, but sexy.

 

[Popertop]

okay, I gotta say that your sig is f'ing RIDICULOUS.
I looked at it and I couldn't look away. I laughed for like a minute.

I play against Diddy quite often, so I'm used to the rythym they get into.
Now I'm not gonna be able to do that against the REALLY good ones, but you know.
I'm not a REALLY good Bowser yet.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

mr. eh, i'm talking about upb out of falco's cg, not out of bowsers, fair works fine for bowser, also, sideb if you're ahead a stock

 

[Popertop]

you can DI out of the other side-b, but f-air works really good at low percents for a quick 0-30something

 

[MrEh]

okay, I gotta say that your sig is f'ing RIDICULOUS.
I looked at it and I couldn't look away. I laughed for like a minute.

My sig and avy are from Italian Spiderman. It's the greatest thing ever created.

mr. eh, i'm talking about upb out of falco's cg,

Using the fortress to get out of Falco's chaingrab doesn't really work unless Falco times the grab wrong. I think Falco can chaingrab Bowser to about 50% before you can realistically escape with it. (it does work though, along with your Jab I guess)

not out of bowsers, fair works fine for bowser, also, sideb if you're ahead a stock

Fortress out of a chaingrab is just for the lolz. Chaingrab into bowsercide is sexy, and guaranteed if you're a certain distance from the ledge.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

upb has frame 1 invincibility, it's one of the three attacks that can get out of it even if falco times it right (marth and meta's upb work too) the timing is just REALLY hard

 

[Flayl]

For whom? Cuz if you keep mashing upB it'll start the first possible frame.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

not always, you have to hit upb on the only frame it's open, nobody can mash 60 times in a second. I can get 21 if i lock up my muscles until my arm starts shaking, most people can get 15 tops, if they go with the index finger

1 frame = really **** hard

 

[Flayl]

No, I mean brawl buffers the UpB, so it'll start on the first possible frame.

 

[Scipion]

Ice Climbers actually discuss IC-Bowser matchup. here is link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188700&page=13

 

[itsthebigfoot]

yeah, your right, did it like 7 times today

bowser has a slight advantage at least

- he escapes the cg, dealing damage for them even attempting it
- he has his own 0 - death on falco, with blackjack, and hookers
- he royally buttsecks's falco recovery with fire breath
- if falco decides to approach, both his dashgrab, dair, and approaching nair are great bait for the drawback on fsmash, if they approach i land it with some consistency
- he can crawl under jumping lasers, and klawhop the standing lasers


if you play diddy kong, you should settle it like a man, with a surf off

 

[Vex Kasrani]

yeah, your right, did it like 7 times today

bowser has a slight advantage at least

- he escapes the cg, dealing damage for them even attempting it
- he has his own 0 - death on falco, with blackjack, and hookers
- he royally buttsecks's falco recovery with fire breath
- if falco decides to approach, both his dashgrab, dair, and approaching nair are great bait for the drawback on fsmash, if they approach i land it with some consistency
- he can crawl under jumping lasers, and klawhop the standing lasers


if you play diddy kong, you should settle it like a man, with a surf off

no, you can't crawl under lasers if they shoot them low enough, that alone makes the matchup very hard even if your amazing at powershielding. I would say 45:55 Falco Favor, Also I'm like 99 % sure he can chaingrab you as long as he doesn't make a mistake.

 

[Flayl]

aren't you guys forgetting the reflector

 

[itsthebigfoot]

the reflector is not that good

 

[3GOD]

Falco can definitely chain grab Bowser for a good 40 - 50% before Bowser can escape. It's rare that the spike at the end of the stage will KO Bowser if you jump out and Up-B in time. However, it's just too easy for Falco to rack up a lot of damage with the chain grab, jabs, and lasers.

Personally, I'd say it's 60-40 in Falco's favor at best.

 

[MrEh]

I'm still going with 45-55 or 40-60 on this one.

The chaingrab hurts, but the grab can be avoided if you just space yourself well. Really, your tilts and jabs outrange anything that Falco can throw at you. Minus the Reflector and Lasers that is. A shielded reflector means a free chaingrab for you.

Get the ugly bird off the ledge, and chaingrab the crap out of him. Shoot fire and learn to time your Fsmash. Fsmash=****.

 

[Scipion]

don´t let this threat die!! ok, I will write something about falco (what will be bad about it, I never played falco.. lol I am theoretic)
First, as everyone knows, its bad to get grabbed. something like 50% in the beggining is bad, but you can meteor-cancel the ending spike.
YOUR chain grab is much more deadly though. He can only groung release (unless you are on aslope platform), and you can regrab, AND you can end it with bowser bomb, koopa claw or if he jump out of ground, you can Fair him. Because he can only ground release its similiar to marth´s death chain grab on ness..
You need to deal with hid lazors. I wouldn´t reccomend to infinite jump over it.. He can just wait half a socend and then shot, and he will hit you. You need to powershield it. It isn´t very hard though. What you have trouble at is approaching. He will shot lazors at you, and if you come close, he can fantasm, use his down-B, hyphen smash, or most dangerous, running grab. I think its better to approach from short-hop, like koopa claw, rising Fair, SHAD or fire. Dont use fire too much though! his downB reflect it and it goes far! use probably short streams of it, unless you are gimping him. You can also try to approach him from ground, but you need to predict what he does, and, most importantly, WHEN he does. you will probably spotdodge instead of shield, because his counter-approaches arent multihit (unless he do walk-jab lol). If you can predict well, you can get grab - and grab is to him deadly. He will probably never approach you. but if he does, if you can, shield greb or spot dodge grab him. if you cant, foretress away.

now gimping:
Many people say that falco is super gimpable.. this is myth though. He just need to DI up if you throw him horizontally. best gimp you can do, is probably fulljump and double jump, then immediately Bair/Nair. He will airdodge though - you just need to predict it, and fast-fall and use another aerial.
If he CAN´T DI its unbeliavably easy to gimp him. you can walk-away Fair, short hop/full hop Bair, you can Koopa claw him, or, the most popular, if he is recovaring from low, FIRE HIM.

He CAN gimp you with proper DI, but not too much though! Thats good. If you have a lot percents and you arent recovering from super high, be prepared for full jump and double jump to immediately Dair, it hurts and it would kill you. If you are recovering from high, best is probably fast fall, and air-dodge if needed. You can take ledge, and then try ledge-hopped Koopa claw, or fire. But its risky, so I wouldnt do it.

Also, Falco DONT have really good KO moves, dont forget that! You will probably live to +- 140%

I would say its 55-45 in our favour, If chain-grabs are banned or limited, I would say 45-55 in their favour.

lol dont forget: this post is full of not so flawless theory!

EDIT: I disagree with dedede matchup! I think its 98-2 for them with infinite, REALLY this is no scrub or epic failure verdict!

 

[Mmac]

I don't want it to die either, but I've been requesting someone to take over for.... about a month ago. My life is starting to become very busy and I just don't have the time to focus on two completely separate matchup threads anymore.

Why won't anyone take over?

 

[Jupz]

imo 35:65 against diddy, and 35:65 against falco.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ thank you random person, because youre random arbitrary post has provided me so much insight into the matchup

one thing i found, infinite jump screws with diddys nanas a lot, and diddy only ko's off the side, where bowser lives longest

 

[A2ZOMG]

not always, you have to hit upb on the only frame it's open, nobody can mash 60 times in a second. I can get 21 if i lock up my muscles until my arm starts shaking, most people can get 15 tops, if they go with the index finger

1 frame = really **** hard

Bigfoot, let me teach you something about frames.

It is impossible to mash a button 60 times a second for a very simple reason.

Because if you actually did it that fast, the game would read it as the button being held for an entire second.

Turbo controllers instead "mash" a button EVERY OTHER frame, which is 30 times a second in a 60 frame per second game.

Just thought you should know. You learn stuff like this if you pay attention to Tool Assisted Speedruns.

 

[Jupz]

^ thank you random person, because youre random arbitrary post has provided me so much insight into the matchup

one thing i found, infinite jump screws with diddys nanas a lot, and diddy only ko's off the side, where bowser lives longest

ok ill post some more lol
just trying to keep the community alive

falco's projectiles are a big trouble for bowser because if he SHDL it isnt hard to hit bowser with the second one. chaingrab can last for about 50% and can be spiked at the end, although easy to recover builds up the damage. falco can combo bowser easily and can spike him as he is recovering.

diddy's is a pain for DDD (my main), so why shouldn;t he be for bowser, who is the same but heavier and bigger, which makes him easier to hit. DDD's is 4:6 and without chain grab and bowser has worse aerials than DDD.

i like bowser so im gonna be active here from now on
hi

 

[Phiddlesticks]

So.... your argument is, "BOWSER IS BIG AND SLOW *CHARACTER* DEFINITELY HAS THE ADVANTAGE!"

Can you stop liking Bowser please?

 

[Inferno_blaze]

ok ill post some more lol
diddy's is a pain for DDD (my main), so why shouldn;t he be for bowser, who is the same but heavier and bigger, which makes him easier to hit. DDD's is 4:6 and without chain grab and bowser has worse aerials than DDD.

Bowser is not DDD. Not in ANY way.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

diddy's is a pain for DDD (my main), so why shouldn;t he be for bowser, who is the same but heavier and bigger, which makes him easier to hit. DDD's is 4:6 and without chain grab and bowser has worse aerials than DDD.

bowser has a cg on diddy... he can also move through the air faster with infinite sideb jumps (which makes banana placement much less effective) and he kills diddy much faster than dedede.

he also has a 0-death on falco

do you have any matchup experience using bowser against a good diddy or falco?