Yet Another Bowser Matchup Thread|Week 3: Diddy/Falco

[cutter]

Can we just cut all the anecdotal bull**** and actually talk about the matchup?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now I remember A2ZOMG, he's the G&W that lost to Koskinator's Ganon.

Lol, yup.

I certainly wouldn't say that this mathcup is even, at all, but 70:30 implies this is Bowser's worst non-infinite matchup. Is it (genuine question)?

I'd say it is. After Olimar.

G&W has all the tools he needs to keep Bowser off the ground where he's severely disadvantaged. G&W is a character that can generally punish pretty much any whiffed move Bowser uses. He has no trouble landing KO moves on Bowser either (fullhop F-air is **** against Bowser and almost impossible to punish). Also, D-air and F-air edgeguard destroys Bowser's recovery. A good G&W can easily rack on at least 60% on Bowser if he goes off stage by simply D-airing if he goes for the ledge and repeating the process over and over again. Now, I'm going to point out, I don't think many G&W players actually use D-air to edgeguard. Or if they do, it's 'cause I told them to. =P

Bowser might have slightly more range on some attacks, but the problem is he isn't disjointed on his attacks, so G&W can simply focus on hitting his hand if necessary. More importantly, he doesn't have any reliable means to escape being juggled in this matchup.

Kosk and I both think it's a 70/30 matchup. It's especially bad on a stage like Battlefield.

I've also played Falconv1.0, who has a pretty good Bowser anyhow.

 

[Mmac]

Speaking of, Falcon is discussing Bowser right now on their Matchup Chart.

 

[Scipion]

we need to test this:

Can't G&W just upb out of Bowser's grab release game?

and we need to test if it is possible to beat GaW while he is using Fair (best would be if you could sideB him ) and if there is any aerial attack that can beat GaW´s Bair (off stage) (it could be pretty funny if fastfall->Uair would work).
also, it looks like you can gimp GaW by Fsmash. He have invicibility on his upB to only 1/2 or 1/3 of his path and you can Fsmash him from his upB on path up after invicibility frames. It works on computer, but hard to say if it would work against good player..
And last thing, never sideB while he is using his neutralB .

 

[MrEh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_sASoTZ5Y

Me vs J-Lee's Gdub.


Doesn't really prove anything though, since I still think the Bowser vs Gdub matchup is total bananas.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

we need to test this:

GnW cant upb out of Bowser's grab releases.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bowser has a very strong shield. He can easily shield a full turtle (he can even shield the whole Tornado followed by usmash XD ). I still think Gdubs has the advantage but 7/3 is too much

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser has a very strong shield. He can easily shield a full turtle (he can even shield the whole Tornado followed by usmash XD ). I still think Gdubs has the advantage but 7/3 is too much

Doesn't matter at all. G&W can fullhop F-air Bowser's shield first which will take a chunk out of it, THEN B-air, and Bowser can't do a thing about it.

And all it takes is him going off stage, or going above G&W, and he's automatically at a huge disadvantage. A G&W that plays right should have little trouble racking on 60% to Bowser in either scenario. Bowser by far is probably one of, if not G&W's easiest juggling targets by far, and his recovery is a SITTING DUCK to G&W's edgeguarding.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Doesn't matter at all. G&W can fullhop F-air Bowser's shield first which will take a chunk out of it, THEN B-air, and Bowser can't do a thing about it.

Are you on crack or something? As soon as anything hits Bowsers shield it's a free upB. Invncibility frames ftw yayuhhz!!!

 

[Neb]

Only problem with Bowser's shield is when its a diminished, even just a little, it exposes his large hurtbox for easy pokes. And if the G&W is smart, and is expecting fortress Oos, do you really think he's just going to run at you with a sh bair? G&W can bait it with empty sh's, cover an approach with chef, or, not approach at all.
I still say 7:3

|Bowser

PROS

• Heavy
• KO's Early
• GR Game
• Fortress Oos

CONS

• Slow
• Small Range
• Easily Juggled
• Bad Recovery
• Bad Approaches
• Easily Edgeguarded
• Can't Gimp G&W
• Hurtbox Exposed on every move (except Fire Breath)
• Fire Breath weakened by Bucket
• Weak against G&W's Edge Camp

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I disagree with almost all of your cons. Bowser isn't really that slow and his range certainly isn't small. It outranges MK and goes even with Marth (who outranges Gdubs). His recovery isn't "bad", I admit he takes lots of damage while recovering but he can survive from almost every distance. He isn't easily edgeguarded at all. And finally, G&W can't really edgecamp vs Bowser. If you realyy Bucket a fire breatch at the edge you're open for punishment.

I think it's 6/4 Gdubs favour

 

[Neb]

I disagree with almost all of your cons. Bowser isn't really that slow and his range certainly isn't small. It outranges MK and goes even with Marth (who outranges Gdubs). His recovery isn't "bad", I admit he takes lots of damage while recovering but he can survive from almost every distance. He isn't easily edgeguarded at all. And finally, G&W can't really edgecamp vs Bowser. If you realyy Bucket a fire breatch at the edge you're open for punishment.

I think it's 6/4 Gdubs favour

Most of my cons weren't in general, but compared to, and up against G&W.
The fact that he takes a lot of damage while returning is why G&W can KO him easy off stage wings.

How is Bowser going to return "almost every distance" against GaW's edgeguard game?
What does Bowser have against his edge camp, one that not even MK can compete with, if used correctly? Bucketing at the edge isn't really punishable since G&W can return from the bottom of maps with his SJ and Upb, which has invincibility frames and high priority (I'm sure you know). Bowser would chance an SD, or stage-spike, if he gambles punishing him on the ledge.

Also, bucketing fire breath does not put Game & Watch in danger because it fills three bars at a quick pace, and the third bucket has an exceptional cut in post lag. But even then, almost all his moves cancel out fire breath.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Most of my cons weren't in general, but compared to, and up against G&W.

Even then they weren't entirely correct. The speed disadvantage is vast amounts smaller than you said and Bowsers ftilt still beats all of Gdubs aerials (if timed right, which s the biggest problem)

The fact that he takes a lot of damage while returning is why G&W can KO him easy off stage wings.

Ok, but I never said anything else.

How is Bowser going to return "almost every distance" against GaW's edgeguard game?

Fortress beats all of Gdubs Edgeguarding moves.

What does Bowser have against his edge camp, one that not even MK can compete with, if used correctly? Bucketing at the edge isn't really punishable since G&W can return from the bottom of maps with his SJ and Upb, which has invincibility frames and high priority (I'm sure you know). Bowser would chance an SD, or stage-spike if he gambles punishing him on the ledge.

Also, bucketing fire breath does not put Game & Watch in danger because it fills three bars at a quick pace, and the third bucket has an exceptional cut in post lag.

The problem is that G&W doesn't have any advantages on the edge - no character does. If you bucket Bowsers Fire Breath you're open for a dtilt - and dtilt at the edge is lethal.

 

[Neb]

Even then they weren't entirely correct. The speed disadvantage is vast amounts smaller than you said and Bowsers ftilt still beats all of Gdubs aerials (if timed right, which s the biggest problem)

I only said he was slow, didn't say incredibly slow.

Again, if G&W is expecting fortress, he won't blindly proceed with his air game.
If spaced correctly, ftilt can't beat nair or bair considering it won't reach his hurtbox.
Also, ftilt is easily shield grabbed, and flashes its only hurtbox for pokes.

Fortress beats all of Gdubs Edgeguarding moves.

But its all around return range womps.
Also, read A2ZOMG's post.

The problem is that G&W doesn't have any advantages on the edge - no character does. If you bucket Bowsers Fire Breath you're open for a dtilt - and dtilt at the edge is lethal.

He does have advantages.

• Upb
• Chef
• Nair
• Fair
• Uair (Refreshes Moveset)

Also, if he buckets, he now has Oil Panic on the ledge.

All these moves, with the exception of chef, out prioritize fire breath.
While upb can stuff fortress. And if G&W is using his aerials and invincibility frames (on both upb, and on the ledge) correctly, dtilt can't do squat.

 

[cutter]

I will point out that if GW maxes out the bucket (pretty easy to do with moves like Bowser's fire breath), the lag is drasticly cut down from the 1st and 2nd absorptions.

So if Bowser wants to punish GW from bucketing the flames he'd better be really quick at doing so.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Are you on crack or something? As soon as anything hits Bowsers shield it's a free upB. Invncibility frames ftw yayuhhz!!!

You can't hit G&W with Up-B out of shield, not even if you somehow powershield the F-air. Fullhop F-air will put G&W in a high position where Up-B won't hit him, at least it will never sweetspot him, and even if you get the small hit on him, he can punish you with another F-air.

And after he gets a hit on your shield, he'll poke you all day before you get a hit on him.

Bowser's recovery is BAD. If he goes offstage, you can D-air him all day (beats his Up-B reliably) until he is forced to recover above where he eats at minimum another F-air, and F-airs HURT.

It doesn't really matter that he isn't that slow and that he has more range than G&W because if he tries to F-air or F-tilt G&W's B-air, he scrapes his hand, and if he whiffs any attack, he gets hit anyway. It's EXTREMELY difficult for Bowser to find any means of safety in this matchup. G&W will rack on damage very quickly to him, and it's MUCH harder for Bowser to land a KO move on G&W than it is for G&W to land one on Bowser. The control G&W has in this matchup is ridiculous.

 

[Sliq]

You can't hit G&W with Up-B out of shield, not even if you somehow powershield the F-air. Fullhop F-air will put G&W in a high position where Up-B won't hit him, at least it will never sweetspot him, and even if you get the small hit on him, he can punish you with another F-air.

And after he gets a hit on your shield, he'll poke you all day before you get a hit on him.

Bowser's recovery is BAD. If he goes offstage, you can D-air him all day (beats his Up-B reliably) until he is forced to recover above where he eats at minimum another F-air, and F-airs HURT.

It doesn't really matter that he isn't that slow and that he has more range than G&W because if he tries to F-air or F-tilt G&W's B-air, he scrapes his hand, and if he whiffs any attack, he gets hit anyway. It's EXTREMELY difficult for Bowser to find any means of safety in this matchup. G&W will rack on damage very quickly to him, and it's MUCH harder for Bowser to land a KO move on G&W than it is for G&W to land one on Bowser. The control G&W has in this matchup is ridiculous.

No.

10 f tilts

 

[Neb]

Wow, what kind of match-up thread is this?
-__-

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wow, what kind of match-up thread is this?
-__-

One, where people talk about Bowser without knowng his capabilities....

 

[M15t3R E]

You guys discussing a match-up or just biting each other's heads off?

 

[Mmac]

I'm starting to see why the other 5 died now

 

[itsthebigfoot]

yeah, it's the problem with bowser, nobody plays him. so the bunch of randoms coming in here to argue the matchup have never played a decent bowser and just go "lol he is teh sux 30-70 my guize advantage"

and A2, once again, your entire post is wrong, this is almost as dumb as the time you said dk doesn't kill well

 

[Neb]

And the points are just going to suddenly change when all you say is fortress Oos *****?

 

[A2ZOMG]

yeah, it's the problem with bowser, nobody plays him. so the bunch of randoms coming in here to argue the matchup have never played a decent bowser and just go "lol he is teh sux 30-70 my guize advantage"

and A2, once again, your entire post is wrong, this is almost as dumb as the time you said dk doesn't kill well

I've played both Falconv1.0 and Koskinator, who are both pretty good with Bowser. I've even played Teh_Spammerer's Bowser a long time ago, and he's pretty **** with the entire Brawl cast in general. I know how Bowser works. He's not a terrible character, but he sucks in this matchup.

Your statement doesn't change the fact Bowser really can't do much against fullhop F-air. He also has terrible recovery that G&W can easily capitalize on because it's the most predictable thing in the world and G&W has the priority to beat pretty much anything offstage. Lastly he is easily juggled and he has ZERO reliable options for getting back to the ground. G&W can even CAMP against Bowser with Chef because he's huge.

Have you EVER played a G&W that has tried D-air edgeguard on you?

@Sliq
B-air > F-tilt.

 

[Sliq]

I've played both Falconv1.0 and Koskinator, who are both pretty good with Bowser. I've even played Teh_Spammerer's Bowser a long time ago, and he's pretty **** with the entire Brawl cast in general.

Oh, so you've played a bunch of people who don't main Bowser. Congrats, I guess? Also, I haven't heard of any of those people placing high with Bowser.

Your statement doesn't change the fact Bowser really can't do much against fullhop F-air.

Full hop fair is garbage. Even if the initial full hop fair was safe (it isn't), afterwards he is vulnerable. He either has to do a falling fair and land with lag, dair and get punished, or air dodge and get punished. Furthermore, you can fair GW after you shield the fair before he can do another move (once you've shield a 1 hit move, you can no longer be hit with it, even if it is a sex kick). His fair has a lot of cool down, and if you shield it you get a free hit.

Plus, I don't think GW's full hop fair will hit Bowser if GW does it as he is going up. I'm not sure, but even if it does, all the stuff I just said applies.

He also has terrible recovery that G&W can easily capitalize on because it's the most predictable thing in the world and G&W has the priority to beat pretty much anything offstage.

Any Bowser with their salt will DI properly, and will ultimately Bowser bomb to the ledge from above, circumventing having to recover low. Regardless, even if Bowser does have to recover low, and takes a dair hit, it won't kill him until high percents, and DI'ing properly once again puts you in position to bomb to the edge. Also, Bowser's over b will grab armor right through that ****.

Furthermore, Bowser doesn't even have to bomb to the ledge. You can use plats and infinite jump around if you want to.

Lastly he is easily juggled and he has ZERO reliable options for getting back to the ground. G&W can even CAMP against Bowser with Chef because he's huge.

Bowser may be easier to juggle than most, but is also the HEAVIEST character in the game. Good luck killing him.

Furthermore, getting back to ground is easy. Ledge canceled bomb. GG NO RE. All you have to do is be patient against the up air spam and hold your air dodge until after the move is over.

Fortress clanks with Chef and resets Bowser, meaning I can up b 5 times and block all of your ****.

Have you EVER played a G&W that has tried D-air edgeguard on you?

Yes, and I beat him. His name is Needle of Juntah. You may or may not have heard of him.

@Sliq
B-air > F-tilt.

False.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Full hop fair is garbage. Even if the initial full hop fair was safe (it isn't), afterwards he is vulnerable. He either has to do a falling fair and land with lag, dair and get punished, or air dodge and get punished. Furthermore, you can fair GW after you shield the fair before he can do another move (once you've shield a 1 hit move, you can no longer be hit with it, even if it is a sex kick). His fair has a lot of cool down, and if you shield it you get a free hit.

If he spaces it properly on your shield, you'll be pushed back far enough for him to DI away and stay safe. besides, he can JUMP away.

Besides, landing with a F-air from that position is less punishable than you would think.

Plus, I don't think GW's full hop fair will hit Bowser if GW does it as he is going up. I'm not sure, but even if it does, all the stuff I just said applies.

It does.

I haven't been punished by Bowser's F-air for fullhop F-air, but I guess I'll go tell my friend Kosk about that and see how that turns out.

Any Bowser with their salt will DI properly, and will ultimately Bowser bomb to the ledge from above, circumventing having to recover low. Regardless, even if Bowser does have to recover low, and takes a dair hit, it won't kill him until high percents, and DI'ing properly once again puts you in position to bomb to the edge. Also, Bowser's over b will grab armor right through that ****.

B-air or weak F-air him from the side as he Bowser Bombs. Bowser Bomb is not disjointed and only goes straight down. Pretty telegraphed as far as I'm concerned.

It doesn't matter either that the D-air doesn't kill him. It's a hit, and it resets the situation for more edgeguarding. Or it can stagespike, which you then have to wall tech, which is not Bowser's best position to be in. Not that it happens often anyway, but the spike portion of it is pretty lethal.

Furthermore, Bowser doesn't even have to bomb to the ledge. You can use plats and infinite jump around if you want to.

Which is where I want you to be so I can proceed with more juggling. =)

Bowser may be easier to juggle than most, but is also the HEAVIEST character in the game. Good luck killing him.

Doesn't matter when it's not hard to rack on damage on his super large frame which has next to no reliable moves for hitting below him.

Furthermore, getting back to ground is easy. Ledge canceled bomb. GG NO RE. All you have to do is be patient against the up air spam and hold your air dodge until after the move is over.

B-air or weak F-air him from the side as he Bowser Bombs.

Hmmmm...

Let me just add, air dodging the N-air is really hard, and that U-air stall undiminishes G&W's other moves, meaning he's not having any issues keeping his already powerful KO moves fresh.

Fortress clanks with Chef and resets Bowser, meaning I can up b 5 times and block all of your ****.

Said who I was letting you do that on the ground?

Yes, and I beat him. His name is Needle of Juntah. You may or may not have heard of him.

NoJ sux. =(

False.

You don't have to hide your jealousy over my better turtle. ^^

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Nair and upb easily beat Bowser bomb when GnW is under Bowser.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Up-B does it reliably on the invul frames but seems to trade hits otherwise, which isn't the best situation for G&W. I think I've gotten hit out of N-air by Bowser Bomb (seems to be there is a priority discrepancy due to the high downwards velocity of the Down-B pushing the hitbox past N-air on certain frames).

I suggested B-air and F-air which work all the time with safest results with the correct spacing.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

A2, you realize that most of your evidence comes from online play, which is VERY different than real play.

Name one bowser main you've played and beaten in tournament

EDI:T in person

 

[Sliq]

If he spaces it properly on your shield, you'll be pushed back far enough for him to DI away and stay safe. besides, he can JUMP away.

Regardless, he STILL has to land. You shield the fair, run in, and shield again. They either fair or dair to defend, air dodge to escape, or jump away (which is the same situation, but now his dair is easier to powershield). Regardless, the ONLY aerial can land with and be safe is bair. All of his other aerials are laggy enough to be punished, and since you faired and are thus facing forward, you can't bair. Well, you can, but you'll hit nothing.

Besides, landing with a F-air from that position is less punishable than you would think.

No, it isn't. I'm 100% positive I've beaten more GW in tournament then than you've played Bowsers. All of GW's aerials are punishable, no exception.

It does.

See above comment.

I haven't been punished by Bowser's F-air for fullhop F-air, but I guess I'll go tell my friend Kosk about that and see how that turns out.

You do that.

B-air or weak F-air him from the side as he Bowser Bombs. Bowser Bomb is not disjointed and only goes straight down. Pretty telegraphed as far as I'm concerned.

Unless they think you're going to do it, then you don't. Hey, now you're back on the stage!

Also, the risk of getting hit by the bomb vs. the reward for punishing it are very lopsided. If you mispace I kill you. If you land it, I take some damage.

Regardless, you don't do it everytime, but Bowser's recovery is more than fortress to the ledge. The fact that Bowser keeps GW guessing means that GW doesn't just run Bowser over. Bowser has an option for every option GW has, which means regarding recovering, it is EVEN.

Also, everything about GW is telegraphed.

It doesn't matter either that the D-air doesn't kill him. It's a hit, and it resets the situation for more edgeguarding. Or it can stagespike, which you then have to wall tech, which is not Bowser's best position to be in. Not that it happens often anyway, but the spike portion of it is pretty lethal.

It sort of does matter if it doesn't kill me, because of how much DI is improved in Brawl, I immediately am giving more recovery options by being higher up.

Which is where I want you to be so I can proceed with more juggling. =)

Yes, because I'm that stupid. You can't juggle someone who isn't near you, nor can you juggle someone air dodging. If you up air I wait. I air dodge when you get close enough to actually hit me. I ride your up airs like I'm Superman across the god**** sky.

Doesn't matter when it's not hard to rack on damage on his super large frame which has next to no reliable moves for hitting below him.

It isn't hard to land with Bowser, nor is it hard to get to the side of your opponent. Your opponent has to be close to hit you. This will never change, and makes avoiding being hit easier. If you are too far away to hit me, I'm safe. I wait until you are close enough to hit me and air dodge.

Also, up b OOS kills GW at 100% which takes almost no time to get on GW. Just save up b out of shield for KO. FYI, Bowser's jab comes out 1 frame before up b. Up b is only faster OOS because of jump canceling the shield.

Hmmmm...

Let me just add, air dodging the N-air is really hard, and that U-air stall undiminishes G&W's other moves, meaning he's not having any issues keeping his already powerful KO moves fresh.

And Bowser has nothing BUT KO moves, so this is also a non-issue.

Also, the nair has no range.

Said who I was letting you do that on the ground?

I assume you mean using chef while I'm in the air, which makes no sense, since you're arguement seems to be about dominating Bowser when he's in the air, then you do a move that does jack **** instead. Makes no sense. You can hit me with chef all day. It doesn't halt my approach, nor does it set up for anything.

NoJ sux. =(

This is true, but I'm certain he is better than you. I say this because he's placed in tournament higher than you. And I've place higher than him.

You don't have to hide your jealousy over my better turtle. ^^

You don't have to hide your lack of tournament experience or high tournament placement. You'd be wrong regardless.

I'm not saying Bowser has the advantage or that it is even, I'm just saying that the reasons for your rating are wrong.

The only reason GW is good in this match is because his bair is very good and his smash attacks are really strong, and his down throw can lead into a KO (two things you left out arbitrarily).

GW is very predictable and very light. The only reason he doesn't get wrecked is because his moves are good. However, no amount of good moves are going to make up for a player relying on his character's strengths and not their own ability. GW is the new Falco, a good character with good moves plagued by predictability because the player sees their character as being awesome and therefor puts their brain on auto-pilot and get's ruined.

You guys can believe whatever you want. It doesn't matter. I'm just trying to set the record straight, but if you want to set yourselves up for some big time embarrassment when you lose to a Bowser by being ******** and stacking the matchup heavily in your favor, knock yourselves out.

No one good plays Bowser anyways, so it isn't like your hypothesis is going to be correct anyways.

Nair and upb easily beat Bowser bomb when GnW is under Bowser.

I know this. This is why you try to be as unpredictable as possible.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sliq, when have you ever been so srs lol? Good ****.

Also, up b OOS kills GW at 100% which takes almost no time to get on GW. Just save up b out of shield for KO. FYI, Bowser's jab comes out 1 frame before up b. Up b is only faster OOS because of jump canceling the shield.

The first Jab maybe, but I'm pretty sure G&W has time to Up-B during the second one assuming he's also Up-B OOS happy.

Also, the nair has no range.

Last hit, it has liek, the same range as bowser's N-air, except it's disjointed.

That's a lot of area he covers when he N-airs. G&W might have slightly less DI top speed than Bowser, but he's a pretty fast moving character, and stages are only so big.

I assume you mean using chef while I'm in the air, which makes no sense, since you're arguement seems to be about dominating Bowser when he's in the air, then you do a move that does jack **** instead. Makes no sense. You can hit me with chef all day. It doesn't halt my approach, nor does it set up for anything.

It works for camping against certain approaches and it does a lot of damage, but eh, you have a point G&W usually has better options.

The only reason GW is good in this match is because his bair is very good and his smash attacks are really strong, and his down throw can lead into a KO (two things you left out arbitrarily).

D-throw is techable and pretty much only good for regrabs most of the time, which IS good, but it's not that good for all out KO setups if you ask me.

Safe on block Smashes are pretty win, but actually landing them pretty much only works from read a roll or badly spaced aerial/air dodge -> Up-Smash. =/

IMO F-air however is really good for punishing Bowser when he whiffs something, and is pretty viable out of shield on large characters.

You guys can believe whatever you want. It doesn't matter. I'm just trying to set the record straight, but if you want to set yourselves up for some big time embarrassment when you lose to a Bowser by being ******** and stacking the matchup heavily in your favor, knock yourselves out.

See, maybe my problem is maybe I have unconsciously realized ways to not play dumb and I just happen to be significantly more competent than my opponent in this matchup, and that should easily explain why I at least 2stock Bowser most of the time even when I'm going up against players better than me.

Doesn't add up for me, but whatever.

 

[Sliq]

Sliq, when have you ever been so srs lol? Good ****.

I'm always serious. This is mah serious face.

T_T

The first Jab maybe, but I'm pretty sure G&W has time to Up-B during the second one assuming he's also Up-B OOS happy.

That's assuming GW shields the jab, and regardless, the GW would have to predict the jab. With shield stun and the limit of human's ability to react, the second hit would already be landing before you'd be able to react.

Plus Bowser's jab has decent range, and GW's up b does not.

Last hit, it has liek, the same range as bowser's N-air, except it's disjointed.

Bowser's nair blows, so this is a counter-intuitive argument.

That's a lot of area he covers when he N-airs. G&W might have slightly less DI top speed than Bowser, but he's a pretty fast moving character, and stages are only so big.

The are he covers is all around his body, meaning he can be hit out of it with an aerial. Also, Bowser can easily defend against an opponent below him, as long as they are slightly to the side. His claw will protect him, and if they don't approach, then you can infinite jump away. The claw will grab heavy armor all of GW's aerials.

It works for camping against certain approaches and it does a lot of damage, but eh, you have a point G&W usually has better options.

You can't camp with it agianst Bowser because of fortress clanks, and doing it while I'm in the air isn't camping with it, it is simply doing it while I'm in the air. IF I see you spam it, I will fortress through all of your ****.

D-throw is techable and pretty much only good for regrabs most of the time, which IS good, but it's not that good for all out KO setups if you ask me.

It is techable, but Bowser's tech roll is slow as **** and sends him no distance. I'm fairly certain with a proper read you can land an up smash. I may be wrong though.

Safe on block Smashes are pretty win, but actually landing them pretty much only works from read a roll or badly spaced aerial/air dodge -> Up-Smash. =/

The thing is you can pretty much mindlessly spam death and be safe because of the IASA and the lack of cool down frames. I fail to see how nigh unpunishable spammable death is a circumstantial move. You won't land it everytime, but you won't need to. You'll only need to land with it 1 out of 400 billion times you do it in 10 seconds.

IMO F-air however is really good for punishing Bowser when he whiffs something, and is pretty viable out of shield on large characters.

The only thing Bowser can whiff and be punished for is f smash and dash grab. Good spacing will protect his f tilt, jab, and fair. Fair is fast and strong, but if you miss you'll get punished. Personally, I'd say GW's d tilt is a better OOS option.

See, maybe my problem is maybe I have unconsciously realized ways to not play dumb and I just happen to be significantly more competent than my opponent in this matchup, and that should easily explain why I at least 2stock Bowser most of the time even when I'm going up against players better than me.

The problem with this is that it makes it really easy to bait you. IF you aren't actively using your brain, you'll fall into a lot of traps.

Also, a better player doesn't mean **** if they don't know the character, which is why you won't see me winning with Snake.

Doesn't add up for me, but whatever.

No u.

 

[Woozle]

Oi... a month spent on this "week's" discussion?

I don't suggest I'm anywhere near a Bowser expert, but ****. Perhaps this would be more helpful if there was some kind of form for posting that would bring everyone's opinions to the forefront?

That seems more organized.

o.o;

 

[Flayl]

Oi... a month spent on this "week's" discussion?

I don't suggest I'm anywhere near a Bowser expert, but ****. Perhaps this would be more helpful if there was some kind of form for posting that would bring everyone's opinions to the forefront?

That seems more organized.

o.o;

The discussion for G&W started the 16th. Shut up.

 

[Mmac]

Everyone seems to be stuck, going around in circles, back and forth, up and down, side to side, ect.

Mainly though, I'm starting to think I'm not the guy who should be running a Chart like this, mainly though because I don't know anything about Bowser at all, and my "I don't need to contribute" is starting to show holes, because I need to contribute no matter what... Why I made one is because nobody else will. I kinda want someone like Gheb to take over. Someone who I know can run a matchup thread, and won't disappear for 2 Months...

 

[Woozle]

Well, if I were an older member, I would offer.

But I don't think I'd even begin to garner the trust from anyone.

I do feel up to mediating and collecting data- but hey, it's not really my call.

The discussion for G&W started the 16th. Shut up.

I'm sorry. I thought week 2 was supposed to be DDD/G&W/Diddy

 

[itsthebigfoot]

mmac, pick up bowser, go to tournaments, and place with said koopa


but yeah, two a week is what's slowing it down, we spent a while on d3 (which we're done on, you could add it now if you want) now we're on gdubs.

when it comes to falco this board is gonna get trolled hard, bowsers got a very good matchup on falco (good enough that i use him as a falco cp, and dk is only at a very slight disadvantage against falco). we're going to get a rush of idiots once they learn the matchup is actually in bowsers favor

 

[Flayl]

good grief i'm washing my hands off this thread right now

 

[Vex Kasrani]

mmac, pick up bowser, go to tournaments, and place with said koopa


but yeah, two a week is what's slowing it down, we spent a while on d3 (which we're done on, you could add it now if you want) now we're on gdubs.

when it comes to falco this board is gonna get trolled hard, bowsers got a very good matchup on falco (good enough that i use him as a falco cp, and dk is only at a very slight disadvantage against falco). we're going to get a rush of idiots once they learn the matchup is actually in bowsers favor

The match is not in Bowser's favor, but at worst its 55:45 falco favor, falco can lock down bowser with laser's( even if your amazing at powershielding). The chaingrab to dair spike has no influence in my decision though just because u can meteor cancel it. But yes there's going to be alot of Falco's coming in here being stupid about the match before even experiencing it against good players.

 

[Sliq]

The match is not in Bowser's favor, but at worst its 55:45 falco favor, falco can lock down bowser with laser's( even if your amazing at powershielding). The chaingrab to dair spike has no influence in my decision though just because u can meteor cancel it. But yes there's going to be alot of Falco's coming in here being stupid about the match before even experiencing it against good players.

I don't think noobs need a reason to be stupid.