Yet Another Bowser Matchup Thread|Week 3: Diddy/Falco

[Mmac]

Thats right, I am making a Matchup Thread for you guys. The other threads just died out, and Bowser is falling behind in the matchup business. Even though I don't main Bowser, I still hope that I can get an organized discussion and an accurate complete chart in a short time. I don't really have to anyways since the owners of the matchup charts don't really take part in many discussions, and is pretty much governed by the Character Community (You guys). All I basically have to do is record the data.

Well I hope this works, and I also might Pickup Bowser as a secondary, as he's a pretty cool guy, and a Giant fire breathing *** kicking Turtle! I was thinking of starting off going through the current Tier List (MetaKnight First, then ending with the Almighty Falcon), but if you want to start with a discussion you really want done, then say so.

Updates:
- Oct 31: Started Chart and got Candy. Yummy!
- Nov 3: Finished Discussion on MetaKnight/Snake and awating final Thesis. Started Discussions on Dedede, G&W, and Diddy
- Nov. 21: Finally finished Dedede and G&W, Moved Diddy to next week with Falco, which I am Starting

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Week One:

-MetaKnight

45:55. Non Infinite. Summary Coming Soon

-Snake

40:60. Non Infinite. Summary Coming Soon


Week Two:

-King Dedede

20:80 Infinite, 40:60 Non Infinite. Summary Coming Soon

-Mr. Game & Watch

40:60. Summary Coming Soon


Week Three:

-Diddy Kong

-Falco

 

[Mmac]

Reserved for Space

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think it was necessary. Thanks Mac. Here are my opinins:

MK: 55:45 MK
Snake: 55:45 Snake
D3: 100:0 D3
GnW: 60:40 GnW
Falco: 50:50
ROB: 50:50

These are imo the top tiers. MK...well I think it's true

Snake is troublesome since he can control the ground, wher Bowser usually fights. But a grab release on is a free ftilt, which forces him to recover and thus leaves him open for flames / bowsercide.

DDD: lol

GnW: He can **** shields and spotdodgers. You have to be careful but flames can beat the turtle. Bowser is huge but GnW dies early. A CG helps you immensly though...

Falco: 0 death vs 0 death

ROB: Bowser ***** spotdodgers with the fortress. If you're inside the fire breath range you can outcamp ROB

 

[Hixxy]

In my opinion:

[Insert Name Here]: Bowser - [Insert Name Here]

Meta Knight: 35-65

Snake: 40-60

King Dedede: 10-90

Game & Watch: 30-70

Falco: 40-60

R.O.B.: 40-60

Marth: 35-65

Wario: 55-45

Lucario: 35-65

Donkey Kong: 25-75

Diddy Kong: 35-65

Pikachu: 40-60

Ice Climbers: 45-55

Kirby: 35-65

Pit: 50-50

Wolf: 50-50

Toon Link: 40-60

Olimar: 35-65

Fox: 50-50

Zelda: 45-55

Zero Suit Samus: 40-60

Luigi: 40-60

Peach: 60-40

Ike: 55-45

Sheik: 50-50

Lucas: 55-45 (Lucas is listed as Mid Tier on the chart)

Ness: 60-50

Mario: 50-50

Pokemon Trainer: 55-45 | Squirtle: 60-40 | Ivysaur: 45-55 | Charizard: 50-50

Samus: 30-70

Yoshi: 45-55

Sonic: 60-40

Jigglypuff: 65-35

Ganondorf: 65-35

Link: 60-40

Captain Falcon: 70-30

 

[Flayl]

50:50 vs ROB and Falco WTF?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Have you ever fought a ROB? Fortress ***** his spotdodge -> dsmash and Bowsers ground game and ROBs are tied. ROB wins in the air, stay away from there and ur fine. ROB has KO issues + Bowser = fat

 

[Flayl]

ROB is one of my other mains. DSmash actually comes out faster than Fortress (yes it's that broken), DTilt is ****, and so are the obvious lasers, gyro, FAir and NAir.

If the ROB is dodging into a DSmash it's because he wanted to avoid an attack from Bowser. He shouldn't dodge for no reason, but I see how Bowser players can teach new ROBs to drop that bad habit.

 

[Mmac]

Maybe discussing multiple characters isn't such a great idea. Lets do a dual week to discuss 2 Characters per week (or until we reached a conclusion) Starting with MetaKnight and Snake. I would also like to see details on the general aspects of the matchup and not just one or two key points. (Like Gheb's example on Falco for example. Yeah they both have 0-Death's, but don't you think that Falco Has alot more in this matchup to prevent it being dead even..... like Lasers?)

(Lucas is listed as Mid Tier on the chart)

Gah! I just noticed. I'll fix it on the next update.


Start discussing........ Now!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OK: MK and Snake

I manage to win with Bowser against better MKs, which can't mean nothing...(maybe it does though)

Bowser has a good answer to all of MKs moves. He can beat them either "face to face" (his ftilt beat every grounded move of MK except ftilt and utilt beats dair) or OoS (UpB OoS > MKs ftilt).
Bowser can rack up dmg very fast, with the fortress and the Koopa Klaw, both attacks can hit quite a lot (Koopa Klaw is guaranteed if u shield MKs dsmash) and he has enough options to finish MK. He can even semi-adgeguard him: If MK uses Drill Rush to recover, dtilt gimps him.
The best strategy is just to fight as Bowser normally does: defensive and campy. SH Fire Breath are useful. If he uses Nado you can Shield all hits and follow it up with UpB. I usually DI afterwards and do a Fire Breath. That way, he won't approach too fast and Bowsers shield increases again.
Grab Releases are useful, even if the CG isn't always effective. At least it can set up free fairs for KOs.
The biggest problem is edgeguarding as they limit Bowsers durability...

Bowser has the advantage on FD and Castle Siege. Overall it'S 55:45 MKs favour

Snake can limit options on the ground but he doesn't pressure your Shield as much as MK does. You can punish his tilts with UpB OoS (gotta luv it). If you release him off ths stage you get a free move (I forgot, whether it's fair, ftilt or dtilt) which forces him to ue his UpB, leaving him open for Fire Breath (much dmg). Bowser is hard to KO but so is Snake. I think Snake outcamps Bowser but Bowser lives longer (his dtilt is ver bad for Snake as a KO move)

I think it's either 50:50 or 45:55 in Snakes favour

 

[DanGR]

Hopefully this will last...thanks Mmac.

*sigh of relief*

 

[Flayl]

I'd like my assessments to be considered but not really used to determine the ratio... Here goes:

MK: This matchup is really dependant on platforms. Unlike in a lot of matchups, platforms = really bad for Bowser. His UAir will never let you recover to the edge with bowser bomb. On flat levels, it seems Bowser has all the tools necessary to deal with MK, but the timing needed is pretty strict, but in judging the matchup I'm just going to go ahead and assume both players are really good. MK can easily capitalize on an advantageous position, whereas bowser needs a spacing mistake from MK to gimp him. I can't stress enough how cautious Bowser needs to be. That said I'll go with 50:50 on FD, 60:40 everywhere else.

Snake: You're forgetting shield drop nades and how he limits Bowser's movement severly with mines. Again, no Bowser Bombing the ledge against snake. His tilts are so god**** imba. I'd say advantage Snake but I don't know how much. If I just had to throw a figure off my head it'd be 65:35.

 

[Flayl]

I feel really dirty now.

 

[MrEh]

Nice idea Mmac. Loving the chart, as always.


Meta Knight: 40-60

At first, Bowser may appear to be at a very huge disadvantage in this fight. After all, who can blame people for thinking this? The undisputed best character in the game against a character that most people consider sub par? It should be an absolute slaughter. However, remember that Smash is a game of counters. It just so happens that the Flaming Turtle that most people think is a load of crap might just have the proper tools to defeat Meta Knight. Or if he can't defeat him, he can at least hold his own. The best way I can explain this matchup would be to use Pokemon battling as an example. (I know, bear with me. I'll try to word this so that non Pokemon players can understand.)


In the early days of Pokemon Diamond and Pearl, there was a new Pokemon that was used by almost every player. That Pokemon was called Weavile.

Weavile wasn't the toughest Pokemon, but it was one of the best. It was blazing fast, and it utterly destroyed a lot of the commonly used Pokemon in the game. Weavile was a Pokemon that you just couldn't run from. Because of these traits, it was used in nearly every team, and it became one of the most feared Pokemon in the game. Sure, he was in no way invincible, but he was indeed a powerful Pokemon.


Now we'll take a look at Bowser's distant cousin. Unlike the great King of Koopas, he was a diminutive little turtle. However, inside that little shell of his was a heart as flaming as Bowser's. This Pokemon was called Torkoal.

Torkoal was a Pokemon that quite literally, got the shaft as far as the game developers were concerned. It was considered one of the worst Pokemon in the game. It was very slow, and was easily defeated by a lot of different Pokemon. Even though Torkoal was riddled with disadvantages, it would soon discover it's true purpose. Torkoal was not destined to be a everyone's doormat, it was destined to be the one to utterly destroy Weavile. Torkoal was a fire type, and that meant that Weavile's powerful ice attacks didn't even make a scratch on him. Weavile's non-ice attacks served no better, since Torkoal's freakishly high defenses allowed him to survive nearly everything that Weavile threw at him. If Weavile kept trying to attack, Torkoal could just blow fire at Weavile. If Weavile tried to run away, Torkoal could burn the next Pokemon that popped into the battle. Despite all of his apparent crappiness, Torkoal shows that some of the better Pokemon can be defeated by some of the most unlikely circumstances. And just like Bowser, people still don't use Torkoal.



Aside from that story being long and boring, it relates somewhat to the topic at hand. While Weavile is no where near as dominant in Pokemon as Meta Knight is in Brawl, and Bowser in no way counters Meta Knight as much as Tokroal counters Weavile, it's a similar scenario.

Either that or I just wanted to tell a good story.



EDIT: Now that I think about it, I think I might have been a bit high when I started typing this.

 

[Mmac]

It convinced me! Although I pretty much already know what Bowser can do against MetaKnight already

 

[Hixxy]

Meta Knight: 35-65

MK racks up damage faster then Bowser, and with his edge guarding game, even the best Bowser should die once he's off the ledge with 100%, especially with a fresh Dsmash (more specific in the Important! How to deal with Meta Knight" thread).

Bowser can also safely kill MK ~90%+ with Utilt and ~100%+ with his Dtilt or a grab release to Fair (I use Dtilt only as a kill move like Snake uses his Utilt, but it can be diminished when used as an offensive move, since the number of moves required to bring MK into killing percents is around the number of moves kept in the diminished returns counter).


Snake: 40-60

Snake is a tough match up for Bowser: Snake's Ftilt is about the same range as Bowser's Ftilt, but with more priority and damage, Snake's fresh Utilt kills Bowser at ~120%+, Snake's projectiles force Bowser to approach, and Snake's grenade camping is very bad for Bowser's approach, especially if Bowser is at a higher percent.

Bowser has the ability to punish Snake's approaches, has a lot of options while Snake is off stage, a chain grab to send Snake off stage, kills Snake ~130%+ and Snake is one of Bowser's easier targets for kill moves. Bowser also has the greatest answer to Snake's recovery: Fspecial. Anytime that Snake doesn't recover far enough away from the stage, Bowser can Fspecial Snake and, at minimum, get a free 20% that doesn't even diminish your moves, with a potential gimp kill at any point in the game.

 

[Bowser King]

MK: 55:45 MK

Bowser's F-tilt comes in really handy to keep off any MK approaches. ^b OoS and the klaw are great for racking up easy damage. Bowser also can kill MK at very low damage. Taking advantage of that he can use CG to rack up easy damage and also use it to possibly even kill with a fair or ftilt. Vb can also work as a decent edgeguard. The problem is that MK racks damage so fast that it sometimes seems impossible to take advantage of these great moves. If a MK wants he can keep bowser up in the air where bowser wont do nearly as well from a MK coming from below.

Snake: 55:45
Snakes f-tilt is annoying in this match. It does more damage then yours and it has higher priority. Grenades also get extremely annoying. Snakes >b can get passed my a simple nair and ^smash can get punished hard by a bowser bomb. The only downside is most snakes won't use a normal ^smash but a mortar slide. Although hard to recreate, a >b can easily gimp snake but also save bowser if he is lucky enough to hit the flying thing. Though it requires good timing to recreate.

-Bowser King

 

[TechnoMonster]

MK vs. Bowser is no better than 35-65. MK can just run up and grab you, shielding whatevers if he needs too, if you start throwing out side B's to counter he can just f-air, if you start spot or roll dodging he can punish that too, etc.

He can gimp you at absurd percents (as low as 40) with up-B, outprioritize your up-B with D-air and in some cases N-air. If you jump at any time MK gets a free tornado no questions asked, and if we're feeling gay we can just follow that with more tornados until your fatness breaks free. Also u-air vertical walling is hella good against Boozer.

Bowser's main advantage is that he has a solid up-b out of shield to deal with Meta's ground and up-B game, good range on his tilts, and some overall good damage builders and a very good shieldgrab, but most of these advantages run into trouble against a Meta that knows the matchup.


Snake runs much more even; 40-60 I'd say, and if you can remove grenade camping from the equation with good use of firebreath you should be fine. To be fair though, I have little experience on either side of the equation.

 

[Flayl]

MK vs. Bowser is no better than 35-65. MK can just run up and grab you, shielding whatevers if he needs too, if you start throwing out side B's to counter he can just f-air, if you start spot or roll dodging he can punish that too, etc.

That's the worst theorycraft I've heard in a while. Run up and shield grab him? Man Bowser is doomed, because last I checked, almost every single character in the game can do that. If only there were something like shield knockback in smash, we could Ftilt them so they'd be outside of grab range.

Also, bowser will not leave the ground unless he really really haves to.

 

[Hixxy]

The knock back Bowser's Ftilt should only knock you out of grabbing range if you're near the tip of the attack, and even then, Meta Knight is fast enough to do a running grab out of shield and catch Bowser after an Ftilt. This is not taking into the consideration of simply spot dodging and then running the grab on Bowser. Once that's done, Meta Knight puts Bowser in the air for a Mach Tornado using his Fthrow, Uthrow, or Bthrow.

 

[LinIsKorean]

MK is 55:45 in my opinion.

Bowser does have ways to rack up damage on MK on the ground with his Up-B out of shield, or just abusing his great F-Tilt, but once MK takes it to the air, Bowser runs into problems. A good MK can get Bowser up in the air and keep him there, racking up damage like no other. Bowser does have the ability to KO MK at low percentages, but he will need to play on the defensive (as always) and be extremely careful that he does not put himself into a position where he can be juggled.

Snake is 60:40 imo.

Snake's endless projectile spam can keep Bowser busy for a while, and this leaves room for mistakes. Snakes ftilt doesn't makes matters better, as it has greater priority than Bowser's. Finding a good way to approach a spammy Snake seems to be the main problem.

Now, I'm no expert, this is just my two cents on the matter. ^^;;

 

[Inferno_blaze]

I'm not too knowledgeable on either of those specific matchups but I'd honestly believe Snake to be the worse matchup. Bowser is one of the few characters lucky enough to have a large number of moves which outprioritise the tornado and can KO Meta fairly well. That said the matchup is still clearly in MK's favour.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

In my opinion:

[Insert Name Here]: Bowser - [Insert Name Here]

Meta Knight: 35-65

Snake: 40-60

King Dedede: 10-90

Game & Watch: 30-70

Falco: 40-60

R.O.B.: 40-60

Marth: 35-65

Wario: 55-45

Lucario: 35-65

Donkey Kong: 25-75

Diddy Kong: 35-65

Pikachu: 40-60

Ice Climbers: 45-55

Kirby: 35-65

Pit: 50-50

Wolf: 50-50

Toon Link: 40-60

Olimar: 35-65

Fox: 50-50

Zelda: 45-55

Zero Suit Samus: 40-60

Luigi: 40-60

Peach: 60-40

Ike: 55-45

Sheik: 50-50

Lucas: 55-45 (Lucas is listed as Mid Tier on the chart)

Ness: 60-50

Mario: 50-50

Pokemon Trainer: 55-45 | Squirtle: 60-40 | Ivysaur: 45-55 | Charizard: 50-50

Samus: 30-70

Yoshi: 45-55

Sonic: 60-40

Jigglypuff: 65-35

Ganondorf: 65-35

Link: 60-40

Captain Falcon: 70-30

kinda kills the point of going weekly

anyway. I recently picked up bowser (along with luigi, so that i could have a trifecta that got utterly ***** by dedede). I started using bowser in a few tournament matches for the lulz, and heres what i found.

against metaknight, its a slight disadvantage for bowser, unless they're on FD, on FD you have the advantage, you can cg him quite well and combo it into kill moves. you are fat, which help a lot if you DI, since metaknights largely rely on dsmash for both making moves safe, and their kill move, so it will probably be diminished. fat + diminished kill moves means you will live for quite a long time.

on the tornado, SDI it straight up and you'll get out, preferably on the first hit since its much easier to do then

other than that its the basics of bowser, upb out of shield most of the attacks, downsmash instead if he messes up his spacing. i'm not sure if your fairs beat his, they seem to land a lot though.

mr. eh's pokemon example is actually pretty close to the mark, the only difference being that sword (and all other sharp objects) are effective against everything, real life included.

however, if you do know the matchup pretty well, you will likely be at an advantage because 99% of metaknights will have no ****ing clue on how to deal with bowsers. so next tournament you go to, find a metaknight, go to an open station, and practice the matchup for about 9-10 rounds, bowser does pretty well against metaknight, go for kills early and youll win against most of them. just pray they don't know the matchup.

45-55 on most stages 60-40 bowser on fd


for snake, it seems pretty even, but i don't have any tournament experience on it, so i'll leave that to you guys

but i can give you a few tricks that i learned using other characters that are kinda universal against snake

if he doesn't cook the grenade, run through it and grab him, no you'll take 4%, he'll take 7-12, and you'll both take 12% from the second grenade he shield dropped right before you grabbed him. bowser might actually do this better due to sideb.

any aerial grab (bowsers sideb included) eats snakes cypher, if you can land it on the cypher it's usually a kill.

he doesn't like you in mid range, so if you have any move that out ranges his ftilt/utilt (firebreath for you i guess) you can space him in that area

get him in the air, he's pretty easy to juggle

and... yeah, you got good enough oos options so i shouldn't have to go into punishing his tilts. have fun, its pretty close to even from what i've seen, snake might have a VERY slight advantage due to camp, but the infinite jump gives you enough mobility to get around that.

 

[Mmac]

I can't really include it if they don't know the matchup bigfoot. Is the 45-55 accountable for if they DO know the matchup, and are aware of what Bowser can do?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

yeah, if they don't know what he can do, 60-40 bowser

EDIT: its pretty funny that the yoshi guy is running the matchup thread, step it up bowser mains

 

[Hixxy]

Dsmash isn't MK's only kill move, though. Unless I'm mistaken, his glide attack, will kill off the top from ground level below 150% even with DI. Diminished or not, Bowser goes off stage just about as well. Then again, you're a lot better than everyone on the Bowser Boards, so I guess that I've been underplaying Bowser.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

glide attack kills around 150 undiminished on big characters, so you'll live quite a bit past that if you DI

also, the bowser boards are pretty dead, the metagame left with gimpyfish i guess. anyone wanna help me start it up again? i'll start and run a stage thread, and try to get all the bowser mains in contact with one another, but i'm gonna need someone to do a guide (WGW's is dead and out of date)

hopefully we can get a mod to sticky it all, it'll help the metagame a bunch.

BTW, Mmac, when you finish a character, can you put some of the tips/counterpick stages up? it'll help a lot,

also, can we get the video thread stickied?

 

[Hixxy]

Big Foot, are you moving to Bowser?

 

[Mmac]

Well, I'm kinda inclined Putting MetaKnight 45:55, Though I'm looking at 40:60 too. But why all this talk that Bowser will only do good on Final Destination? Wont he do just as good as any other equally flat stages with Platforms that barley interfere? (Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 1, Pictochat). What about stages like Castle Siege, which 2/3's completely play in your favour, or Corneria which has tiny blast zones and is practically flat?

Also I would like to see more discussion on Snake. How well can he deal with Grenade Spam? Does he have counters for Mortar Sliding? Can Bowser beat out his Tilts?


Edit: Also where's that Vex guy? Isn't he like TEH Bowser Main around here?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Big Foot, are you moving to Bowser?

not as a main, but i'm working him in as a secondary every once in a while, also, i'm training two bowser mains, expect to see them soon

but yeah, i've been playing some of the undeveloped characters like bowser and luigi a lot. still a dk main though

Well, I'm kinda inclined Putting MetaKnight 45:55, Though I'm looking at 40:60 too. But why all this talk that Bowser will only do good on Final Destination? Wont he do just as good as any other equally flat stages with Platforms that barley interfere? (Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 1, Pictochat). What about stages like Castle Siege, which 2/3's completely play in your favour, or Corneria which has tiny blast zones and is practically flat?

Also I would like to see more discussion on Snake. How well can he deal with Grenade Spam? Does he have counters for Mortar Sliding? Can Bowser beat out his Tilts?


Edit: Also where's that Vex guy? Isn't he like TEH Bowser Main around here?

put metaknight down as slight advantage (55-45 mk), and list castle siege, fd, smashville, ps1 and corneria as counterpicks

for snake, gimme a bit, i'll get a snake main over here and play a few rounds. seems like a slight snake advantage though.

for grenade camp, infinite jump goes through it

for tilts, shield-upb

not sure on mortar slide, ftilt might do it, firebreath if you can set it up

 

[Hobobloke]

yeh i was wondering where vex has been and now i think about it Dias was a great bowser and hasnt posted here in a while not to mention warriorknight and Earny jeez everyone is abandoning us. As for MK and snake i dont have any real experience versing too many but 55-45 for MK and 60-40 for snake sound about right

 

[Flayl]

The knock back Bowser's Ftilt should only knock you out of grabbing range if you're near the tip of the attack, and even then, Meta Knight is fast enough to do a running grab out of shield and catch Bowser after an Ftilt. This is not taking into the consideration of simply spot dodging and then running the grab on Bowser. Once that's done, Meta Knight puts Bowser in the air for a Mach Tornado using his Fthrow, Uthrow, or Bthrow.

Fist of all, you're seriously overstimating MK's grab range. Only knocked out of range by the tip?

Second, if after the shielded (or when it's at low %s) FTilt the opponent dashes in, Bowser's not going to FTilt, it won't be fast enough. You're supposed to Jab, SideB or Shieldgrab them.

 

[Flayl]

Then again, you're a lot better than everyone on the Bowser Boards, so I guess that I've been underplaying Bowser.

I seriously doubt he's better than Vex, specially considering he just picked him up.

 

[Hixxy]

The "Edit" button is your friend, Flayl. By tip, I meant the fist area, and when I said: "catch Bowser after an Ftilt", I was talking about the lag after Ftilt, not the lag before. MK still has time to get the grab when Bowser jabs. I apologize for mistyping, but I was referring to a power shield. My mistake.

 

[MrEh]

How well can he deal with Grenade Spam

He can't, unless you like Klawing.

Does he have counters for Mortar Sliding?

Shield--->Fortress--->Profit

 

[Bowser King]

He can't, unless you like Klawing.


Shield--->Fortress--->Profit

Infinte jump can come in handy. I love klawing :D

...and you did it wrong, it's...

1)shield
2)fortress
3)???
4)profit



-Bowser King

 

[MrEh]

XD


On a more serious note, Snake vs Bowser is a bit harder then the MK matchup in my opinion. First of all, Snake has his BS tilts that extend 50,000 feet from his body. Compared to that, Bowser's range seems fairly small.

Bowser does have some fun things to use in this matchup though. Grab releases work fairly well, and Bowser can breathe fire everywhere to rack up damage. Snake, being fairly big, hates fire. Like Always, Fortress OoS is useful as well.

And of course, we have the infamous Klaw gimp.

 

[Mmac]

Well I think we're done this week. I'm going to put 45:55 MetaKnight, and 40:60 Snake (I foresee an Angry MetaKnight mob though... strange.) Anyone want to get started on the final thesis for both characters so I can submit to the front page?

This week we're going to do Dedede (I know, I know), Game & Watch, and Diddy (Because they're discusing us now). I also want to see an actual discussion on Dedede. No "ZOMG Infinite! 100:0! End! Sad Yoshi

". I'm sure there's some things that won't make it so bad....


Edit: Oh, Also I noticed that some characters have already discussed us. If the majority of the Bowsers here agree with the matchup, then I'll just put them up and someone can just do a Thesis of the matchup. I don't know if they're right though, and even myself question some of them

C. Falcon: 60:40 Bowser
Ganondorf: 55:45 Bowser
Ice Climbers: 20:80 IC's (Thread is Old though)
Kirby: 30:70 Kirby
Lucas: 40:60 Lucas
Marth: 40:60 Marth
ROB: 40:60 ROB
Samus: 30:70 Samus (I think this was already discussed multiple times)
Wario: 30:70 Wario
Wolf: 40:60 Wolf (Gheb is here, so this is probably right)
ZSS: 30:70 ZSS

What you agree and disagree with? Remember, these are from the other matchup threads

 

[Flayl]

Your main source of hope in most other matchups, FTilt, is outclassed by Dedede. Bowser's other best tools need him to be extremely close to the opponent, which is very risky considering the infinite, or even just the chaingrab. This means Bowser's only choice is to take to the air, and I find that suprisingly, he does okay.

There are two things you must learn in this matchup, avoid being grabbed and reading his BAirs. You want to see if his BAir is punishable by shield fortressing, or if you can retreat and jump for a quick FAir while he's in lag. Dedede has a blind spot at 45 degree angles, which is perfect for klaw jumping. You can't juggle him per se, but since he has low horizontal velocity in the air you can estimate where you need to be to avoid his DAir+BAir to hit him with your FAir. This is the exact opposite of the MK matchup in the sense that you want to be agressive and stay in the air.

That aside, you're forced to approach because of waddles, he can gimp you when you're off stage, gimp you by swallowing and spitting you beneath the stage, you name it. Even without the infinite it's a bad matchup, Bowser's saving grace is the klaw.

80:20?

edit: Bowser definitely has more than just 55:45 on Ganon, but they won't see it until they play a decent bowser.

I've never played an Ice Climbers

Kirby definitely gives Bowser a hard time, dunno about 70:30 though

Marth has more than just 60:40, IMO, SHDFAirs + Dancing blade-> eating hat

Samus isn't 70:30, nobody bothered to dispute against Xyro about missile spam. Jab > Missile. She does have the advantage though because of ZAir.

Highly doubt that score for ZSS, they probably went "Oh it's Bowser, we win"

I can agree on pretty much everything else, maybe 65-35 for R.O.B.

Lol, here's the ZSS evaluation:

Originally Posted by FoolyCoolyGamer
Bowser is heavy, but also powerful. His F-smash has a bit of lethal range on it, plus his bowsercide technique can leave you high and dry. However, his attacks in the air aren't that hot, so use that to your advanctage. If he tries to Down B, just wait for it, dodge, and charge up your D smash and repeat it again to set him up for a combo. Also, use his lack of speed against him by using mind games and traps. using paralyzer shots short, then rushing him with a dash attack combo can fix his little game quick.

Originally Posted by DeliciousCake
Stun combos should work fairly well as he's a large target. Your range on him should give you a significant advantage as well.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Well I think we're done this week. I'm going to put 45:55 MetaKnight, and 40:60 Snake (I foresee an Angry MetaKnight mob though... strange.) Anyone want to get started on the final thesis for both characters so I can submit to the front page?

This week we're going to do Dedede (I know, I know), Game & Watch, and Diddy (Because they're discusing us now). I also want to see an actual discussion on Dedede. No "ZOMG Infinite! 100:0! End! Sad Yoshi

". I'm sure there's some things that won't make it so bad....


Edit: Oh, Also I noticed that some characters have already discussed us. If the majority of the Bowsers here agree with the matchup, then I'll just put them up and someone can just do a Thesis of the matchup. I don't know if they're right though, and even myself question some of them

C. Falcon: 60:40 Bowser
Ganondorf: 55:45 Bowser
Ice Climbers: 20:80 IC's (Thread is Old though)
Kirby: 30:70 Kirby
Lucas: 40:60 Lucas
Marth: 40:60 Marth
ROB: 40:60 ROB
Samus: 30:70 Samus (I think this was already discussed multiple times)
Wario: 30:70 Wario
Wolf: 40:60 Wolf (Gheb is here, so this is probably right)
ZSS: 30:70 ZSS

What you agree and disagree with? Remember, these are from the other matchup threads

hold off on that many matchups for a bit

and lucas thread doesn't know the matchups, they thought dk was at a disadvantage, then dks showed up and proved that it was very bad for lucas (grab release cgs into smashes ftw)

basically, everyone is gonna say "lol bowser we win", so just let them post their dumb crap, and do our matchups on our own. also, for the second week i recommend just dedede and gdubs, otherwise discussion will get too split

 

[Blackbelt]

hold off on that many matchups for a bit

and lucas thread doesn't know the matchups, they thought dk was at a disadvantage, then dks showed up and proved that it was very bad for lucas (grab release cgs into smashes ftw)

basically, everyone is gonna say "lol bowser we win", so just let them post their dumb crap, and do our matchups on our own. also, for the second week i recommend just dedede and gdubs, otherwise discussion will get too split

Oh, lighten up on the Lucas'. the DK matchup was the only such matchup that had such a lack of information. We've been good beyond that.


That, and it was only my personal opinion that DK and Lucas were neutral. I blame lack of experience for that, and I apologize.

And also, we actually rediscussed Bowser and got that score.