itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
you do realize that its the character with the one of the worst grab release lags going against the king of grab releases right?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Yet Another Bowser Matchup Thread|Week 3: Diddy/Falco
- Thread starter Mmac
- Start date
- Status
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
That's what I think, anyway =/
-
Bowser King
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
but if you do then you got him, even if he has his double jump u can regrab him with very strict timing and then he is screwed
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
Dedede. Is. Bad.
don't get grabbed. I'll put up some not getting grabbed tricks i learned from dk later
Game and Watch is not that bad, he's awkward, and i'm gonna test to see if upb oos beats the turtle mid attack, which could be big. few tips for gdubs, don't firebreath, its a free bucket for him (all 3 in about half a second), if he uair juggles you, you get to land a very awkward looking bowser bomb (its weird, try it out), other than that i don't know much about the matches, upb out of shield is always good, if you shield an approaching fair is a free dsmash. also, go for kills early, he's light, and don't be afraid to go way out there for gimps, since you won't gimp any other way.
also, 90% of game and watches will ledge hop nairs if you wait for them at the edge, just a heads up
don't get grabbed. I'll put up some not getting grabbed tricks i learned from dk later
Game and Watch is not that bad, he's awkward, and i'm gonna test to see if upb oos beats the turtle mid attack, which could be big. few tips for gdubs, don't firebreath, its a free bucket for him (all 3 in about half a second), if he uair juggles you, you get to land a very awkward looking bowser bomb (its weird, try it out), other than that i don't know much about the matches, upb out of shield is always good, if you shield an approaching fair is a free dsmash. also, go for kills early, he's light, and don't be afraid to go way out there for gimps, since you won't gimp any other way.
also, 90% of game and watches will ledge hop nairs if you wait for them at the edge, just a heads up
A few good techniques to use against grab happy characters:
1.) SH F-air into F-smash. Just space the f-air so that you land in grab range. The wind up from the f-smash will remove you from grab range and punish those silly DDD's.
2.) Once they get smart, SH f-air to overb.
3.) Empty SHFF into upb. Mix this with SHFF grabs. Bowser's SH is really short, and most people expect an attack to come out when he jumps.
I still think using Bowser against a good DDD is suicide, but have fun fighting the odds.
1.) SH F-air into F-smash. Just space the f-air so that you land in grab range. The wind up from the f-smash will remove you from grab range and punish those silly DDD's.
2.) Once they get smart, SH f-air to overb.
3.) Empty SHFF into upb. Mix this with SHFF grabs. Bowser's SH is really short, and most people expect an attack to come out when he jumps.
I still think using Bowser against a good DDD is suicide, but have fun fighting the odds.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Wario also has an Infinite on Bowser too... so that kinda cancels it out.
Let's just forget that list shall we? Let's just get working on this weeks matchups
MrEh
Smash Hero
Let me refer to the previous matchup thread.
Obviously, you have to keep your distance. Spacing yourself properly is what Bowser players should be doing on reflex, but sadly, Dedede has pretty big hitboxes on most of his attacks. (Ugh...Bair...><) Always remember that your fire beats everything, so use it in this matchup as much as possible.
Your Klaw is one of your best friends in this matchup. SH Klaws are awesome for mindgames and it utterly ruins shieldgrabbing. Plus, if they spot dodge, you can follow up with a tilt, Jab, another Klaw, or the Fortress. SH Fire is also pretty cool.
If anything, try your best to keep Dedede in the air as much as possible. Every second Dedede spends in the air is one less second you have to worry about his grab.
And for the love of god, try to smack him out of his recovery as much as possible. You can intercept it with an Uair if you're feeling crazy. Or you can just Fsmash the ledge, whichever floats your boat.
This is actually pretty accurate. Jokes aside though, if you really look into it, this entire match is decided on the grab. Winning this match pretty much boils down to whether or not you can avoid Dedede's freakishly long arms. And that is pretty **** hard.King Dedede >< YOU ARE SCREWED
Dedede can infinite grab Bowser to death. You are screwed.
Obviously, you have to keep your distance. Spacing yourself properly is what Bowser players should be doing on reflex, but sadly, Dedede has pretty big hitboxes on most of his attacks. (Ugh...Bair...><) Always remember that your fire beats everything, so use it in this matchup as much as possible.
Your Klaw is one of your best friends in this matchup. SH Klaws are awesome for mindgames and it utterly ruins shieldgrabbing. Plus, if they spot dodge, you can follow up with a tilt, Jab, another Klaw, or the Fortress. SH Fire is also pretty cool.
If anything, try your best to keep Dedede in the air as much as possible. Every second Dedede spends in the air is one less second you have to worry about his grab.
And for the love of god, try to smack him out of his recovery as much as possible. You can intercept it with an Uair if you're feeling crazy. Or you can just Fsmash the ledge, whichever floats your boat.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
jungle japes is a good dedede counterpick (maybe not for bowser though... ceilings too high, but the sides means bair becomes a great kill move)
pick stages that screw over vertical recoverys
other than that, don't hit his shield with any attack that isn't completely safe (basically ftilt him a lot). follow up with upb's to a safe distance (or behind him)
pick stages that screw over vertical recoverys
other than that, don't hit his shield with any attack that isn't completely safe (basically ftilt him a lot). follow up with upb's to a safe distance (or behind him)
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
taking a d3 ftilt is a lot better than eating a grab
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
DDD is the heaviest character vertically because he falls faster, So this only goes in his favor, and DDD can also chaingrab you into the trap that comes around every 10 seconds or so.
If standing infinites and small step chaingrabbing are banned, which they should, then the matchup is no more then 60:40 DDD favor. Bowser is sooooo much faster then DDD that it just looks plain ******** when you see Bowser hopping all over DDD. Klaw jump mind games work great here since you'll be using it ridiculously against DDD. Jabs can stop him from grabbing you and upb is still amazing D:.
ALSO when ledge guarding him, make sure u grab the ledge, when he goes for an upb, do a ledge jump and follow him into upair :D It's so amazing.
Just remember, BAN FD, and counterpick DDD to BF. BF is Bowser's best neutral and DDD's worst :D.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Yeah, seriously guys...why the hell are you saying D3 is a hopeless matchup when the infinite/small step CG are both banned?
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
they aren't banned here...
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
That's stupid. It really is.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
To bad he doesn't. Wario get's to a certain %, and frame data indicates he can escape with an Up B.Wario also has an Infinite on Bowser too... so that kinda cancels it out.
Let's just forget that list shall we? Let's just get working on this weeks matchups
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Yah bowser can get out of it with upb, I actually learned this recently D:
imo, even without the notion of the infinite, D3 is still pretty ****ing hard for Bowser. There's still the regular CG+probably the most powerful fthrow/bthrow in the game, which is very very hard for Bowser to avoid because he simply doesn't have the best spacing tools to go head to head with D3. D3 also has crazy long-ranged disjointed hitboxes on some attacks, and considerable speed and priority on others (bair). D3 has Bowser beat in range and priority on some moves. Also, the nature of D3's hitboxes make him perfect for combating other heavyweights, since his hitboxes are enormous.
To top it all off, D3 has a projectile. Bowser is forced to approach, and this fact alone tips in in D3's favor since D3 LOVES to have people approach him - it's where he thrives.
btw, DONTDONTDONTFORTHELOVEOFGOD SH into the ground near D3. Don't do an empty/SH airdodge into D3, don't do a SH-ANYTHING into D3, don't even LAND near D3 - it's dumb and just BEGGING to be grabbed.
Most likely 70:30 or 65:35 in D3's favor. With the infinite, it's like 85:15 lol
Btw, it's not actually an infinite. Just a really long Chaingrab.
To top it all off, D3 has a projectile. Bowser is forced to approach, and this fact alone tips in in D3's favor since D3 LOVES to have people approach him - it's where he thrives.
btw, DONTDONTDONTFORTHELOVEOFGOD SH into the ground near D3. Don't do an empty/SH airdodge into D3, don't do a SH-ANYTHING into D3, don't even LAND near D3 - it's dumb and just BEGGING to be grabbed.
Most likely 70:30 or 65:35 in D3's favor. With the infinite, it's like 85:15 lol
Btw, it's not actually an infinite. Just a really long Chaingrab.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
No, DDD can also do a standing infinite chaingrab too.
This is true
Sorry but no, you can consistently do shorthop klaw at him, because if he spot dodges, just jump out of klaw aka infinite jump. here come the mindgames, if he thinks that, he might do a move, instead do a shorthop airdodge then grab him and chaingrab DDD to the end of the stage into overb. Obviousily everything is dependent but saying doing stuff like this is dumb is just dumb to say(I'm not flaming you).
Vex, he meant that Dedede's infinite on Bowser is technically not an infinite since Dedede has to inch closer to regrab. In a match it's as good as one, of course.
Also JST completely forgot Bowser's advantage in terms of speed and the blind spot I mentioned in my matchup review. No way is it 70:30 without the infinite, not that it matters very much.
Also JST completely forgot Bowser's advantage in terms of speed and the blind spot I mentioned in my matchup review. No way is it 70:30 without the infinite, not that it matters very much.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Mmac
Smash Lord
I'm probably going to separate Dedede's ratio into two, due to the different regions having Anti-Infinite Rulesets.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
No, most East coast tournament ban DDD's infinite and small step chaingrabbing because its ******** broken.
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
Some places ban the amount you can use it.
The official SWF rules and a lot of rules in "tourney discussion board" ban it to a max of 5 times before you have to let go.
-Bowser King
The official SWF rules and a lot of rules in "tourney discussion board" ban it to a max of 5 times before you have to let go.
-
Bowser King
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
I don't think diddy needs disscusiong. We already did in the old one =/ IIRC
-Bowser King
-
Bowser Kinghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOTrYOAa-Ok
Watch the whole (The WHOLE) set, I think it gives a good idea how both characters fare against one another when the 'infinite' isn't put into play.
Looks like the klaw and jabbing are effective against D3, and Bowser can do a good job of edgeguarding D3.
However, Bowser's size allows D3 to actually pull off long strings of attacks (Which is something he can't really do). Also, D3's Utilt, his main killer, becomes 9000x more lethal because it can actually hit consistently at any point in the attack as long as Bowser is close enough (Maybe it can hit Bowser out of the klaw?).
D3's bair (And to a certain extent, fair, but not really) also seems to outdo nearly all of Bowser's aerial options except for when he's at an angle above Bowser, where D3 needs to turn around and dair if he doesn't want to get hit (Doing this is not feasible).
A more accurate thing to say would be that it is a good option and tool for Bowser to use against D3's shield-camping in general and can keep D3 on his toes.
Anyway, regarding that, it looks like a very good option. But few things to note - if D3 rolls back, what can you do to punish it? Nothing (Maybe fire?), and it just ends up resetting the situation; D3 is safe once again, and you must once more risk everything in approaching. And, D3's bair can consistently outdo Bowser's SH options - bair beats out the klaw upon coming out (Look at round 2 of the set around 0:17 - D3's nair, his worst aerial, beats the klaw upon start-up. Bair would be even worse, because D3 won't have to be that close) , and bair's hitbox lasts long enough to catch Bowser out of an airdodge unless it is timed perfectly, but at that point D3 could just bair again.
One other thing I'd like to point out is D3's ftilt - it outranges everything Bowser has on the ground (Except fire), and is safe on block - Bowser doesn't seem to have the sufficient speed to punish it unless he SHs BEFORE D3 does the ftilt.
Regarding the blindspot, that's only when D3 is facing AWAY from Bowser. Dair's hitbox is rendonkulous enough to catch Bowser out of whatever he was doing at that angle. Even then, D3 still has his multijumps to try and avoid danger.
I think the main thing that gives D3 the advantage (Barring the infinite) is the fact that he is much safer than Bowser, who puts himself at an enormous risk every time. There is also the notion of the inevitable infinite (CG if the infinite is banned), and there is also the fact that D3 outranges and outprioritizes Bowser in many instances. Don't underestimate D3's speed, either - Bowser is fast in most cases, but D3's speed in few categories allow him to shine - the enormous range and considerable speed on his SG and his pivot-grab OoS (Don't land behind D3. =P) and his lighting quick bair are quick and formidable enough to give Bowser a run for his money (Yes, just those two things. But his Dtilt and Ftilt are pretty **** fast too. =P).
I stand by 70:30 or 65:35.
Watch the whole (The WHOLE) set, I think it gives a good idea how both characters fare against one another when the 'infinite' isn't put into play.
Looks like the klaw and jabbing are effective against D3, and Bowser can do a good job of edgeguarding D3.
However, Bowser's size allows D3 to actually pull off long strings of attacks (Which is something he can't really do). Also, D3's Utilt, his main killer, becomes 9000x more lethal because it can actually hit consistently at any point in the attack as long as Bowser is close enough (Maybe it can hit Bowser out of the klaw?).
D3's bair (And to a certain extent, fair, but not really) also seems to outdo nearly all of Bowser's aerial options except for when he's at an angle above Bowser, where D3 needs to turn around and dair if he doesn't want to get hit (Doing this is not feasible).
One thing to note when debating match-ups: Mindgames are NEVER taken into account because those things are more at the hands of the player rather than than the characters themselves. If that was the case, I could just easily say 'D3 can mindgame his way to an infinite, mindgame Bowser into doing all his mindgames upon which he predicts and punishes and...' etc etc.
A more accurate thing to say would be that it is a good option and tool for Bowser to use against D3's shield-camping in general and can keep D3 on his toes.
Anyway, regarding that, it looks like a very good option. But few things to note - if D3 rolls back, what can you do to punish it? Nothing (Maybe fire?), and it just ends up resetting the situation; D3 is safe once again, and you must once more risk everything in approaching. And, D3's bair can consistently outdo Bowser's SH options - bair beats out the klaw upon coming out (Look at round 2 of the set around 0:17 - D3's nair, his worst aerial, beats the klaw upon start-up. Bair would be even worse, because D3 won't have to be that close) , and bair's hitbox lasts long enough to catch Bowser out of an airdodge unless it is timed perfectly, but at that point D3 could just bair again.
One other thing I'd like to point out is D3's ftilt - it outranges everything Bowser has on the ground (Except fire), and is safe on block - Bowser doesn't seem to have the sufficient speed to punish it unless he SHs BEFORE D3 does the ftilt.
Speed isn't that much of an issue. Donkey Kong, Wolf, and Captain Falcon all are much faster than D3 (And debatably faster than Bowser). Despite that, D3 still has a considerable advantage over them.
Regarding the blindspot, that's only when D3 is facing AWAY from Bowser. Dair's hitbox is rendonkulous enough to catch Bowser out of whatever he was doing at that angle. Even then, D3 still has his multijumps to try and avoid danger.
I think the main thing that gives D3 the advantage (Barring the infinite) is the fact that he is much safer than Bowser, who puts himself at an enormous risk every time. There is also the notion of the inevitable infinite (CG if the infinite is banned), and there is also the fact that D3 outranges and outprioritizes Bowser in many instances. Don't underestimate D3's speed, either - Bowser is fast in most cases, but D3's speed in few categories allow him to shine - the enormous range and considerable speed on his SG and his pivot-grab OoS (Don't land behind D3. =P) and his lighting quick bair are quick and formidable enough to give Bowser a run for his money (Yes, just those two things. But his Dtilt and Ftilt are pretty **** fast too. =P).
I stand by 70:30 or 65:35.
I was talking about the klaw blindspot. Bowser doesn't put himself at risk with the klaw, that's the point me and Vex have been trying to say. I'd go with 65:35 without the infinite, 80:20 with.
Also rolling = tech chase with fortress or as you mentoned, firebreath? It really doesn't reset the situation, seeing as klaw has no lag.
Also rolling = tech chase with fortress or as you mentoned, firebreath? It really doesn't reset the situation, seeing as klaw has no lag.
What if D3 turns around and bairs Bowser in the face? What if he just Utilts? What if he simply runs away? There are more situations to consider (Don't say mindgames).
I find it a bit ridiculous that you say that klaw is completely safe. Even MK's Tornado isn't always safe to use. =/ Other than lack of lag, what's your reasoning behind this?
I find it a bit ridiculous that you say that klaw is completely safe. Even MK's Tornado isn't always safe to use. =/ Other than lack of lag, what's your reasoning behind this?
Admiral Pit
Smash Hero
Dedede's B-airs, its hitbox is long-lasting and very spammable, like DK's. With D3's multiple jumps, this frustrates Bowser too.
Bowser really doesnt have much against the penguin, with or without D3's CG. Dedede does have some more range than Bowser, a better recovery, great capability to gimp Bowser.
Bowser's range is within F-tilts and F-airs, and even D3 can top that, B-airs, F-tilt.
Bowser's Firebreath on a Dedede trying to come back up the stage is one thing I do see, though if you're left open, you might as well expect a CG. I do recommend a stage with small platforms of some sort (Norfair or BF maybe?) to weaken the CG effectiveness.
Unfortunately, I put my thought that the D3 Bowser matchup is about 80-20 D3's favor, mostly because of that Stupid D-throw CG, and remember that the D-throw has a fixed knockback no matter how much damage you have, so... it's painful, I know.
You better hope you dont face a Dedede on Bridge of Eldin either.
As for the Pit matchup, I can help you guys out with it, since I've been on both sides of the matchup, mostly Pit's.
Bowser really doesnt have much against the penguin, with or without D3's CG. Dedede does have some more range than Bowser, a better recovery, great capability to gimp Bowser.
Bowser's range is within F-tilts and F-airs, and even D3 can top that, B-airs, F-tilt.
Bowser's Firebreath on a Dedede trying to come back up the stage is one thing I do see, though if you're left open, you might as well expect a CG. I do recommend a stage with small platforms of some sort (Norfair or BF maybe?) to weaken the CG effectiveness.
Unfortunately, I put my thought that the D3 Bowser matchup is about 80-20 D3's favor, mostly because of that Stupid D-throw CG, and remember that the D-throw has a fixed knockback no matter how much damage you have, so... it's painful, I know.
You better hope you dont face a Dedede on Bridge of Eldin either.
As for the Pit matchup, I can help you guys out with it, since I've been on both sides of the matchup, mostly Pit's.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
MrEh
Smash Hero
I'm going to throw in my two cents now. It's pretty clear this with the chaingrab, we're proper screwed. Without the chaingrab though, the match is pretty manageable. It's not easy, but there are far worse matchups.
It's clear that DDD has the range advantage with his Waddle Dees and his humongous foot. So being overly defensive probably isn't the best idea.
Using your Klaw is absolutely awesome though. It puts pressure on DDD and infinite jumping makes a pretty cool approach. Plus, with it, shielding becomes useless. If he tried to dodge, then you can use a tilt or something.
And of course, FIRE!
It's clear that DDD has the range advantage with his Waddle Dees and his humongous foot. So being overly defensive probably isn't the best idea.
Using your Klaw is absolutely awesome though. It puts pressure on DDD and infinite jumping makes a pretty cool approach. Plus, with it, shielding becomes useless. If he tried to dodge, then you can use a tilt or something.
And of course, FIRE!
- Status