X or Y? - PT Social

[Steeler]

yeah what miles is describing is basically the reason why i use tap jump off always. so i don't accidentally use my jump and then die because of it.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

PT board combo vid?

 

[Shaya]

Ivysaur is good against marth. Oos Bair *****. Bulletseed ***** Dancing Blade. Razorleaf makes it so you don't have to approach. With tap jump off you can edgegaurd/gimp marth well.

Ivy wrecks ganon. Ganon is only bad because his recovery.

Look, I'm a bit sorry for doing this, like really sorry, please read this out loud in an apologetic tone so you can fully appreciate how sorry I am.

Marth > Ivysaur.

Beyond the fact that Marth's fthrow on Ivy like ALWAYS sets up for ****, where her options are NIL (lucky airdodge anyone?)... Ivysaur has a 15 frame forward air, nothing else she has will cover her for for that frontal ****. Her HORRIBLE aerial mobility will not allow her to avoid any follow up if she air dodges. The extra time required to then start up and attack (or the even LONGER time for a fast fall, special or jump) means... well... IVY HAS NOTHING.
Bulletseed will only get through DB at low percents... like 0-20% tops unless the Marth... sucks.
Razorleaf ain't no short hop double laser... and Ivy has no side b escape either... You aren't going to be getting a shieldgrab to bthrow to reset your positioning when Marth's fair/dtilt outrange it...
Ivy getting Marth off stage in position for a gimp is rare... Only times it's feasible is when said Marth feels a little greedy and decides to try and gimp you whilst you're already on the ledge... Ivy's only gimping aerial is... dair... and nair? High level play doesn't include Marth DIng down so he's below the stage...

And finally...

Ivysaur has a 6 frame jump, and her backair is 4 frames. Marth's fast fall fair on shield is -4 disadvantage, and your bair will hit me on frame 9. Giving Marth a 5 frame advantage. Guess what Marth has that only requires a neutral (i.e. 0 frame advantage or more) standpoint to avoid any sort of out of shield punishment? Starts with 5 frames of invincibility and ends with Slash.
Plus if you aren't already facing backwards you'd need to rar it, giving you an extra 7+ frame disadvantage as you'll have to shield drop first... I hope you like forward smashes... actually hell, I could just JUMP AGAIN and fair you before you could do that...

SQUIRTLE does better against Marth than Ivysaur. Squirtle kills, gimps, zones, and punishes Marth better than Ivysaur.

tcranter approved!

 

[shinyspoon42]

Look, I'm a bit sorry for doing this, like really sorry, please read this out loud in an apologetic tone so you can fully appreciate how sorry I am.

Wow he sure is sor- wait a minute, do I detect a faint undertone of sarcasm?!

Marth > Ivysaur.

I agree, but not for the reasons listed here. I'm a nublet, but I will try to share my opinion about your opinion.

Beyond the fact that Marth's fthrow on Ivy like ALWAYS sets up for ****, where her options are NIL (lucky airdodge anyone?)... Ivysaur has a 15 frame forward air, nothing else she has will cover her for for that frontal ****. Her HORRIBLE aerial mobility will not allow her to avoid any follow up if she air dodges. The extra time required to then start up and attack (or the even LONGER time for a fast fall, special or jump) means... well... IVY HAS NOTHING.

Stopping you here, as you are describing a character at a weak point. This however, is relatively unimportant. A marth vs. Ivy match should be about spacing spacing spacing. Ivy will want marth to stay away, and will keep him at bay with bair, ftilt, jab, dtilt, and fsmash. She'll pepper marth with Razor leafs and force him to approach, then try to wall him. Marth will be forced to aggressively approach, and it will become a match about marth trying to space and slash, and ivy trying to keep him out. As you have pointed out, a grab is disadvantageous for ivy, but is unlikely to happen.

Bulletseed will only get through DB at low percents... like 0-20% tops unless the Marth... sucks.

I don't know about this one, what are the speeds of DB? I think BS starts on frame 4.

Razorleaf ain't no short hop double laser...

Don't knock it, razor leaf is one of the better projectiles in the game. Good projectile>No projectile

and Ivy has no side b escape either...

The relevancy for this is little. Guess what, Ivy isn't Falco. A lot of your comments seem to be comparing Ivy to Falco, and its kinda pointless. Alot of the characters don't have a side b escape, there was no need to bring this up.

You aren't going to be getting a shieldgrab to bthrow to reset your positioning when Marth's fair/dtilt outrange it...

You aren't going to be getting a fair/dtilt when razor leaf outranges it.

Ivy getting Marth off stage in position for a gimp is rare...Only times it's feasible is when said Marth feels a little greedy and decides to try and gimp you whilst you're already on the ledge...

Actually, it isn't. fsmash, dtilt, bair, ftilt, or throws will all get you off.

Ivy's only gimping aerial is... dair... and nair? High level play doesn't include Marth DIng down so he's below the stage...

This is just downright hilarious. Gee, I wonder what bair is for? dair and nair are ivys spikes, doesn't mean she gimps with them. Dair actually sucks for gimping, nair is good, and bair is amazing. Ivy is up there as one of the best gimpers in the game, the problem is she gets ledgehogged easily, but when shes forcing you away it isn't really a problem. Also, tetherhogs work well too, especially instant tether from the ledge, as Ivy is hanging above the ledge for a second, where she can hog safely and fast.

And finally...

whew, finally wrapping it up.

Ivysaur has a 6 frame jump, and her backair is 4 frames. Marth's fast fall fair on shield is -4 disadvantage, and your bair will hit me on frame 9. Giving Marth a 5 frame advantage. Guess what Marth has that only requires a neutral (i.e. 0 frame advantage or more) standpoint to avoid any sort of out of shield punishment? Starts with 5 frames of invincibility and ends with Slash.
Plus if you aren't already facing backwards you'd need to rar it, giving you an extra 7+ frame disadvantage as you'll have to shield drop first... I hope you like forward smashes... actually hell, I could just JUMP AGAIN and fair you before you could do that...

I have no frame knowledge, so I don't have any good points of contention. The claim of forward smash and another fair seem implausible however.

SQUIRTLE does better against Marth than Ivysaur. Squirtle kills, gimps, zones, and punishes Marth better than Ivysaur.

Its good to know your opinion!

tcranter approved!

Which makes everything he says credible!

 

[Shaya]

oh dear...

Ivysaur cannot keep Marth out with bair, or any other move.
I don't know how much convincing the PT boards need to realise how NOT amazing bair is.

If I'm hitting you with db, the hitstun is sufficient enough to not allow you to bs out of it; unless its at low percents or I do the downwards final variation.

Razor Leaf may be a good projectile, but not in this match up.
Marth is one of the best characters in the game in getting past projectiles. Why? because his fair, jab and other aerials outprioritise them. Falco does 'better' with projectiles due to magical transcended priority and being able to reposition himself easily... two MAJOR things Ivy doesn't have.

Razor Leaf outranges fair and dtilt... how facetious when my moves cancel them out.

Since when did Bair have enough knockback to get Marth off stage?
Since when was fsmash actually a viable move in general? I stopped getting baited by those months ago...
Ftilt and dtilt have generally weak knockback; they're not going to be putting me off stage in a humongously disadvantageous position like MK's dair...

downright hilarious is the idea that Ivysaur is one of the best gimpers in the game... She does -okay- but I think just about every character in top tier except Snake, and most of high tier are better at gimping than her. Insta tethers do work... if Ivy were to hit me with a move that sent me off stage far enough, and had the off-stage harrassment abilities to force me to recover low to use it...

Thanks for liking my opinion. Aerial Mobility is ****.

tcranter is pretty [in]credible .

Typh says Marth:Ivy is like 90:10 And everyone loves Typh.

 

[T-block]

Ivysaur cannot keep Marth out with bair, or any other move.
I don't know how much convincing the PT boards need to realise how NOT amazing bair is.

Not a whole lot.... shinyspoon is just an Ivysaur fanboy It's more of a disruption move than anything, but if you use it as such and not as a damage dealer, it's still a pretty useful move.

If I'm hitting you with db, the hitstun is sufficient enough to not allow you to bs out of it; unless its at low percents or I do the downwards final variation.

I knew you could BS out of the stabby stabby one, but I've never been able to BS out of the other hits lol. Maybe I should try harder >_>

Interesting debate we've got going =o Someone should open a Marth matchup discussion thread so we can take it there.

 

[Miles.]

oh dear...WORDS WORDS WORDS.

Shaya you make tons of sense.

Lets play at EVO.

=)

I will show you my pokemonz.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

We could do either Marth or Diddy.

The Diddy vs Squirtle MU may cause some serious discussion between us and them ;D.

 

[Miles.]

I think the Nameless Wanderer is Onyx.



OH AND @ SHAYA

get ***** by DDD more lolz.

 

[Steeler]

I think the Nameless Wanderer is Onyx.

this makes an insane amount of sense

 

[typh]

shaya started his post with "oh dear" therefore everything in it is correct

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I think the Nameless Wanderer is Onyx.



OH AND @ SHAYA

get ***** by DDD more lolz.

Whos Onyx?

 

[shinyspoon42]

oh dear...

FANBOY RAWR I HAS NO LOGICS. D:<

Ivysaur cannot keep Marth out with bair, or any other move.
I don't know how much convincing the PT boards need to realise how NOT amazing bair is.

its pretty darn good in my opinion, but whatevs. Care to explain why?

If I'm hitting you with db, the hitstun is sufficient enough to not allow you to bs out of it; unless its at low percents or I do the downwards final variation

Bummer, db is a pretty good move, you're right.

Razor Leaf may be a good projectile, but not in this match up.
Marth is one of the best characters in the game in getting past projectiles. Why? because his fair, jab and other aerials outprioritise them.

Attacking my projectile means you are gonna be having attack lag if I rush you.

Falco does 'better' with projectiles due to magical transcended priority and being able to reposition himself easily... two MAJOR things Ivy doesn't have.

Jinkies, Falco sure is a great character! Thanks for reminding me, it has a lot to do with the PT vs. Marth matchup!

Razor Leaf outranges fair and dtilt... how facetious when my moves cancel them out.

No, They still get outranged. range=/=priority.

Since when did Bair have enough knockback to get Marth off stage?

When you get hit with it?

Since when was fsmash actually a viable move in general? I stopped getting baited by those months ago...

Since brawl was released. F-smash F-smash F-smash.

Ftilt and dtilt have generally weak knockback; they're not going to be putting me off stage in a humongously disadvantageous position like MK's dair...

Expect to be chased off even by a weak hit.

downright hilarious is the idea that Ivysaur is one of the best gimpers in the game... She does -okay- but I think just about every character in top tier except Snake, and most of high tier are better at gimping than her.

regardless of the other characters abilities, she is an excellent gimper.

Insta tethers do work... if Ivy were to hit me with a move that sent me off stage far enough, and had the off-stage harrassment abilities to force me to recover low to use it...

*F-smash bair bair bair bair bair tetherhog* Sorry, did you say something?

Thanks for liking my opinion. Aerial Mobility is ****.

No problem, I agree.

tcranter is pretty [in]credible .

**** straight!

Typh says Marth:Ivy is like 90:10 And everyone loves Typh.

Well, I do love Typh. I just don't agree 90:10 AT ALL.


/fanboyism

 

[T-block]

x.x

shiny you can't really expect to say something like...

*F-smash bair bair bair bair bair tetherhog* Sorry, did you say something?

...and expect to be taken seriously in an argument.

 

[shinyspoon42]

Don't take me seriously please. :D

 

[T-block]

Then at least make it funny so we can tell.

kthx

 

[Tien2500]

Speaking of funny why was S.K.I.D's post locked? That was freaking hilarious

 

[DemonFart]

I love nublets. I had a good laugh from that story.

 

[Steeler]

cus i reported it like a good boy

i really wanted to respond with something humorous but i knew retro would give me another infraction for replying to spam or something

 

[Zigsta]

I am seriously considering sigging that whole post.

 

[Saltix]

I wanna pick up PT because he is my favorite character in the game, and I would actually enjoy playing him.
Right now though I main Mk and Lucario, and I DO want to win lol.

What do you guys think? :/

 

[Bomber7]

I wanna pick up PT because he is my favorite character in the game, and I would actually enjoy playing him.
Right now though I main Mk and Lucario, and I DO want to win lol.

What do you guys think? :/

A not needed statement associating Lucario and MetaKnight with "Win". If you get good with Pokemon Trainer, you will "win" too.

=/

 

[Saltix]

A not needed statement associating Lucario and MetaKnight with "Win". If you get good with Pokemon Trainer, you will "win" too.

=/

Well thats the thing, I don't "win" currently. And I know those characters are capable of doing it.

I mean, it is my favorite character though...

 

[Shaya]

I didn't realise there was something important to 'oh dear' :\
Seems I'm missing out on something funny...

Why is bair 'bad'?
Ivysaur's aerial mobility and move speed does not allow her to manouver away from an opponent during her 'wall' to stop approaches. Yes there is a guessing game inbetween the bair, and some reasonably viable setups/options to go from the bair... Bair is a 45 frame aerial with 10 frames of landing lag... It's not going to stop the rushdown of fast characters.

I brought up Falco because Marth does actually -struggle- against Falco. And for several reasons why, it mostly comes down to the projectile and manouverbility... Are you saying Ivysaur's projectile is as good as annoying the **** out of Marth as Falco's lasers are?

Ivysaur rushdown:
Please explain.

Marth fair and jab... lag?

But of course range =/= priority. But if one character's options come close to invalidating anothers... well... ... .... okay so range =/= priority... let's just leave it there.. MKAY.

*sigh* at dedede. I don't think you were at evo

 

[SilverSpark]

hi peoples :]

I picked up PT awhile ago and I'm trying to improve with him ! ^_^ Though Pika's my main, I'm going to make PT my new secondary~

I like Ivysaur out of all 3 of them btw :3

 

[Miles.]

Welcome Silverspark. Pt and Pika gives you really nice match coverage.

 

[Toby.]

lol wow i only just read the ****storm on page 6.

my australian compatriots sure do bring the lols.

and the sads.

 

[Shaya]

I won't lie to you guys, since I love the PT boards.

tcranter begged me to remind you guys that Ivy is not a good character.

 

[Vermy]

Ivy sucks. Makes me sad, but I've been minimizing Ivy of late. Switch to zard at 60ish% to avoid ivy being gimped and to avoid Zard being juggled, and that seems to be her greatest use.

 

[dre_89_]

I know Zard gets juggled/comboed at low percents, but isn't it a bad idea to have Ivy in at low percents too because he can get edgeguarded so early on?

With all the countless switching strategies floating around now it's hard for lesser PTs like me to know what the best way to start/switch is.

 

[Bomber7]

I like Ivy. She's my battery with Squirtle. They do quite well as a team when I choose not to stock tank with Squirtle.

 

[T-block]

When to switch comes naturally once you get comfortable with your own playstyle... people can tell you should be switching and stuff, but ultimately it's gotta come down to how you feel about your pokemon.

 

[Miles.]

When to switch comes naturally once you get comfortable with your own playstyle... people can tell you should be switching and stuff, but ultimately it's gotta come down to how you feel about your pokemon.

Truth.

Here are some facts.
Squirtle is **** you want him in at low percents so you can have as much Squirtle as possible. Also squirtle is really really good at "not getting hit" so Squirtle is good when you are at really high percents.

Some like Ivy in at low percents because you won't get hit to far from the level. Others prefer that you put Ivysaur in at high percents so that you can just DI up and you will go to high to get gimped easily.

So ( I think just me) love Zard and want him in at low percents to get as much zard as possible. Most avoid having zard in at low percents as he is really easy to juggle. Zard is so heavy he is the ideal stock tank so switching him in at high percents is wonderful. Also it should be noted that switching to Zard at around 60to70% is really ideal because zard can live to 120 with easy and once you are over 50% its a lot easier to not get comboed.

 

[Bomber7]

Truth.

Here are some facts.
Squirtle is **** you want him in at low percents so you can have as much Squirtle as possible. Also squirtle is really really good at "not getting hit" so Squirtle is good when you are at really high percents.

Some like Ivy in at low percents because you won't get hit to far from the level. Others prefer that you put Ivysaur in at high percents so that you can just DI up and you will go to high to get gimped easily.

So ( I think just me) love Zard and want him in at low percents to get as much zard as possible. Most avoid having zard in at low percents as he is really easy to juggle. Zard is so heavy he is the ideal stock tank so switching him in at high percents is wonderful. Also it should be noted that switching to Zard at around 60to70% is really ideal because zard can live to 120 with easy and once you are over 50% its a lot easier to not get comboed.

Also noted for truth. It's all how you feel.

Me:

Squirtle to do damage
Ivy to finish off
Charz to stock tank
Charz eventually gets KO's
repeat

and this is all for one of my stocks. That is my ideal strategy for playing PT. To me that would work out nicely, however I have to be really good to pull it off on a tournament level against really good people. So far I just stock tank with each Pokemon which isn't good at all regardless if I win.

I'll eventually work my way back up to that strategy, I just have to be really mobile with all three to make safe switches, be able to make all my movements fluidly and leave no gaps in my game play to where I could be left vulnerable or left open for a counter attack.

Though that is just me and a strategy I thought of the first week I picked up PT

 

[Blitzmidfielder]

I see an overlying usage of Squirtle to death, Ivy until about 60-70%, switch to Char until death, finish with Squirtle going on.

Which is kind of sad, because Ivy is such a beastly little munchkin. I love her so much, but she does die too easily. Need to learn to DI.

 

[Toby.]

I won't lie to you guys, since I love the PT boards.

tcranter begged me to remind you guys that Ivy is not a good character.

I was telling the truth when I said that I hadn't read what you wrote

The fact that I agreed with you whilst you were writing up that massive post doesn't change the fact that I only just read the argument that followed.

Plus everyone knows that I think that marthT is 100:0 anyway :3

oh shaya...

 

[typh]

Some like Ivy in at low percents because you won't get hit to far from the level. Others prefer that you put Ivysaur in at high percents so that you can just DI up and you will go to high to get gimped easily.

i've always said that to be good at pokemon trainer, you do the exact opposite of what the people on the pokemon trainer boards say

the reasonable thing to think in this situation is that neither of those are true and ivy is just terrible all around at every percent

 

[Zigsta]

Typh, what happened to "ivy starter for life yo"?

 

[SilverSpark]

Typh, what happened to "ivy starter for life yo"?

combo breaker :]

 

[typh]

Typh, what happened to "ivy starter for life yo"?

like i said

do everything opposite of what the PT boards say

including me