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X or Y? - PT Social
- Thread starter T-block
- Start date
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Thanks.
Vermy saw, and it was good.
Vermy saw, and it was good.
I just had cookies and milk with my dad. I'm happy.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Now, in that case, Jesus loves milk. That's why God said that the Promised land would be flowing with milk and honey. So the Isrealites could have the two best possible things to go with their cookies (cookies, manna, same thing).
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Let's take a poll shall we?
Who needs sleep when you got:
A) Confidence
B) Alcohol
C) Who needs blood when you got alcohol
D) no more ideas
F) a curiosity as to why E was skipped.
Z) to choose this answer because Z is obviously superior to all the other letters in the alphabet.
This is perfectly legit. It has so much to do with Pokemon Trainer (now it's legit cuz I have his name in it) Just give your answer with any pokemon of your choice's sprite next to it.
also: Bears Rock. (so do Teddiursas)
Who needs sleep when you got:
A) Confidence
B) Alcohol
C) Who needs blood when you got alcohol
D) no more ideas
F) a curiosity as to why E was skipped.
Z) to choose this answer because Z is obviously superior to all the other letters in the alphabet.
This is perfectly legit. It has so much to do with Pokemon Trainer (now it's legit cuz I have his name in it) Just give your answer with any pokemon of your choice's sprite next to it.
also: Bears Rock. (so do Teddiursas)
Phiddlesticks
Smash Lord
So what is everyone's favourite Pokemon shipping couple ^^
My favourites are these 2:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Shipping:MolestShipping
:3
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Shipping:EnergyShipping
I like how this one goes into so much detail despite the fact that those 2 have never met or mentioned each other ever
My favourites are these 2:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Shipping:MolestShipping
:3
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Shipping:EnergyShipping
I like how this one goes into so much detail despite the fact that those 2 have never met or mentioned each other ever
T-block
B2B TST
that croagunk is maaaad sexy
vermy's title is indeed win
vermy's title is indeed win
So this shipping crap was holy crap scary.
but PalletShipping is win.
<3 Ash.
but PalletShipping is win.
<3 Ash.
Not so sure this Vermy guy is. I hear he's a noob with PT.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Best shippy is Misty and Tracey.
T-block
B2B TST
Bullet Seed, Flamethrower
Just don't run into stuff. You'll be okay.
Toby.
Smash Master
The former is overrated, the latter underrated.
If DK is spacing properly the odds of landing a bullet seed are very slim. If we attempt to go for the seed its far more likely that we'll be punished, often with a smash or africa punch.
And reflex the same can be said for any character. Especially pokemon trainer.
I think DK has a decent advantage, since his spacing tools are much better than anything we have, and his down b can limit our ground game if done in short bursts.
The matchup isn't as simple as that unless the DK is a joke. A smart dk will keep ivy out. Her air speed is just terrible and make her movements all the more readable. By the time you've gotten inside, you'll have taken a fair bit of damage. Then 1 or 2 bairs will get you off stage and gimped. DKs anti air is pretty good too, and has better tools than most characters to wall out squirtle. Limiting the discussion to ivy and zards neutral Bs is a really silly way to start. =/
DK's best tools are pretty straightforward. Horizontal line strike. D-Tilt/F-Tilt/Forward-B/Down-B/B-Air all hit in the same "way" more or less.
Granted, he can be fairly fast, and his attacks DO hurt, but he's still easy to predict as a character.
Toby.
Smash Master
Yes, and Pokemon Trainer has similarly predictable attack options. No matter how predictable the horizontal strike of down b is, it still stops us from using the ground to vary our own movements. So we have to come in from the air, which for pokemon trainer is just as predictable as donkey kong. If we choose to mix it up with something other than a spaced bair or fair, donkey kong has enough time to simply up tilt, which beats out all of Squirtle's aerials and finishes quickly enough to thwart air dodges.
The clear advantage he has is that he's the one who is allowed to shield, smash and tilt. We can either commit to an attack or retreat. Our ability to bait is severely restricted. His bair also beat squirtle's aerials out, and he can effectively wall squirtle with reversed up tilt.
The fact that his massive tilt range covers so much of the traditional short hop angle means that we often have to jump earlier, which further limits our options.Of course his use of tilts restricts his own down b, and vice versa...but simply by spacing correctly he can limit our options far better than we can limit his.
I quickly reread this and understand that it oversimplifies both play itself and many elements of the matchup. I put it down to tiredness
My point is: linearity isn't a big deal when he cuts our own options down drastically with his own spacing tools.
Edit: gawd upon reading a third time i really am too tired. No, Dk's up tilt doesn't beat every single one our aerials. lawl.
The clear advantage he has is that he's the one who is allowed to shield, smash and tilt. We can either commit to an attack or retreat. Our ability to bait is severely restricted. His bair also beat squirtle's aerials out, and he can effectively wall squirtle with reversed up tilt.
The fact that his massive tilt range covers so much of the traditional short hop angle means that we often have to jump earlier, which further limits our options.Of course his use of tilts restricts his own down b, and vice versa...but simply by spacing correctly he can limit our options far better than we can limit his.
I quickly reread this and understand that it oversimplifies both play itself and many elements of the matchup. I put it down to tiredness
My point is: linearity isn't a big deal when he cuts our own options down drastically with his own spacing tools.Edit: gawd upon reading a third time i really am too tired. No, Dk's up tilt doesn't beat every single one our aerials. lawl.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
DK really isn't that tough. You just need to be used to fighting him. He's a lot faster and has a lot more range then people give him credit for. He doesn't have many options in general, which is a huge reason why he's only mid-tier to begin with. Playing a ranked DK versus an unranked one means you'll be fighting someone who just plays smarter, but the basics of fighting a DK, for the most part, are the same. A ranked DK will likely use a crazy trick or to that an unranked DK will not, of course.
I will admit, though, that I don't like the Squirtle-DK matchup. I much prefer Charizard or Ivysaur in this case, as DK excels at outlasting Squirtle.
I will admit, though, that I don't like the Squirtle-DK matchup. I much prefer Charizard or Ivysaur in this case, as DK excels at outlasting Squirtle.
Toby.
Smash Master
Well, for what it's worth I've played a DK main almost every day for the past 6 months, excluding the time I was in America. I think I'm fairly used to the matchup. He's also the best Australian DK, and probably has the second best anti PT knowledge in Australia after Shaya. This is because I've been painstakingly teaching him all of PT's known weaknesses, and how to get around our spacing and move pool. I figured it would help my development if I played against people who didn't fall for the silly tricks that PT often gets away with
So yeah, we both know the matchup quite well, after 6 months.
It frustrates me when people say that a matchup isn't so bad because the opponent doesn't have very many options. Or rather, I should say that it frustrates me when PT mains say that. Pokemon trainer doesn't have many options either, especially at the range that DK likes to stay at. Charizard only has one move that outranges DK's ftilt, and at that range it does like 5% max.
And the main reason DK is mid tier is because of Dedede. If it weren't for D3, his generally excellent matchup ratios would easily have him in A tier.
So yeah, we both know the matchup quite well, after 6 months.
It frustrates me when people say that a matchup isn't so bad because the opponent doesn't have very many options. Or rather, I should say that it frustrates me when PT mains say that. Pokemon trainer doesn't have many options either, especially at the range that DK likes to stay at. Charizard only has one move that outranges DK's ftilt, and at that range it does like 5% max.
And the main reason DK is mid tier is because of Dedede. If it weren't for D3, his generally excellent matchup ratios would easily have him in A tier.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I apologize if my opinion frustrates you, Toby. The last thing I'm trying to do is tick someone off. My roomie last year mained DK, and we played a lot last year. After playing him, I played two ranked DKs over the summer and did well against them. Am I saying it's easy to fight a DK? Hell no. Both Will_ and Cyphus beat me by a stock when I played them. They're both better players than me and make smarter decisions.
DK does have a lot of range with his tilts. That's one of the reasons I like playing with him for fun, haha. But it's all a matter of shielding and mindgaming DK into using a tilt at the wrong time so that you can then punish. Again, I'm sorry if this sounds simple, noobish, whatever, but that's the tactic that I've been using against DK mains. At first my roomie and I were pretty even, but after I started incorporating that tactic and getting used to DK's playstyle in general, I began to win more often to the point that I almost always won. When I applied the same tactic to the two ranked DKs (one in-tourney and one friendly), DK's range wasn't really a problem for me.
DK does have a lot of range with his tilts. That's one of the reasons I like playing with him for fun, haha. But it's all a matter of shielding and mindgaming DK into using a tilt at the wrong time so that you can then punish. Again, I'm sorry if this sounds simple, noobish, whatever, but that's the tactic that I've been using against DK mains. At first my roomie and I were pretty even, but after I started incorporating that tactic and getting used to DK's playstyle in general, I began to win more often to the point that I almost always won. When I applied the same tactic to the two ranked DKs (one in-tourney and one friendly), DK's range wasn't really a problem for me.
Toby.
Smash Master
Oh Zigsta no no no.
I honestly wasn't actually annoyed at you. It was more a general frustration of a trend I see where character mains don't acknowledge their own limitations and instead focus on those of the opponent. I'm too tired to actually be annoyed at anyone Sorry for wording it in such a bad way.
It was more the opposite experience for me - I went from almost always 2-3 stocking every DK to going even with the one I play regularly, simply because he learned how to space in a way that limited my own options dramatically.
Whilst its true that we can bait tilts and punish, thats true of every character. The issue is that by being out of range of his tilts, we are in danger of ground pound which forces us to either back off or be in a very poor position. If we move inside his tilt range things get easier, but its hardly an even matchup because he still have greater kill power and survivability.
I honestly wasn't actually annoyed at you. It was more a general frustration of a trend I see where character mains don't acknowledge their own limitations and instead focus on those of the opponent. I'm too tired to actually be annoyed at anyone
Sorry for wording it in such a bad way.It was more the opposite experience for me - I went from almost always 2-3 stocking every DK to going even with the one I play regularly, simply because he learned how to space in a way that limited my own options dramatically.
Whilst its true that we can bait tilts and punish, thats true of every character. The issue is that by being out of range of his tilts, we are in danger of ground pound which forces us to either back off or be in a very poor position. If we move inside his tilt range things get easier, but its hardly an even matchup because he still have greater kill power and survivability.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
best ****ing time of your life right?
also sushi is amazing, when we were in vegas we went to this one little sushi restauraunt and I swear to god it was better then anything you could imagine!
theres a ramen store in sydney called naruto (has nothing to do with the anime)
also milk and oreos goes down a treat
also who's this elipsis kid, played toby all the time and 3 stocks him and use's snake and pt amongst others? the only person who could fit this discription could be liam.
anyways there was a very distinct lack of discussion, does pt really have the advantage on snake?
does anyone have tobys back?
should I even go to genesis? (joke question, dont respond telling me that it already had passed)
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Toby, your playstyle is very minimal.
You dont take risks or try flashy things.
It is easy to land bulletseed on DK. (And catch him when he is DIing wrong so he takes a lot of damage)
Idk You should play your friend on no time limit infinte stock so you just experiment and dont worry about winning matches and I bet you would try a lot more things you normally dont do.
OoS VS its all about OoS.
Just run up as Ivy, let him touch your shield and BS OoS or VineWhip. Idk...
<333333
You dont take risks or try flashy things.
It is easy to land bulletseed on DK. (And catch him when he is DIing wrong so he takes a lot of damage)
Idk You should play your friend on no time limit infinte stock so you just experiment and dont worry about winning matches and I bet you would try a lot more things you normally dont do.
OoS VS its all about OoS.
Just run up as Ivy, let him touch your shield and BS OoS or VineWhip. Idk...
<333333
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
OK, that's good, haha.
Ground Pound lingers for a while, though. At lower percents, we should be able to punish that lag. At higher percents, I've never faced a DK that used Ground Pound, however. The knockback on this would be much higher at high percents of course, so I thiiiink that would make it much more difficult to punish the move's lag. Do you have any videos of your DK friend?
With Ivysaur, if I see a DK's tilting a lot, I get back and Razor Leaf him to force him to approach. With Squirtle, I usually shellshift and try to fake him so he tilts, then I can go in for a punish (although that's what I do against most characters as Squirtle, ahaha). With Charizard, I shieldgrab or do a jumping flamethrower.
I'll emphasize again though Squirtle's limitations in this matchup. Without shellshifting, Squirtle's too predictable against DK. Squirtle's fair in particular is way too easy for DK to shieldgrab. Overusing shellshifting or misproperly using shellshifting leads to getting tilted, fsmash, or dsmashed, and Squirtle's ridiculously easy for DK to KO. Additionally, after a while of my roomie and I playing, he got to the point where it was very, very easy for him to spike Squirtle mid-Waterfall. And when offstage, DK's bair outranges us even easier. So Squirtle-DK, I find DK to have an advantage.
Ivysaur-DK is better. We can Razor Leaf spam his tilts. I've found bair to be effective here at spacing DK, but I'm not sure if that's because I've timed it well or it actually outranges DK's ftilt. I'm more inclined to think the former. Bullet Seed is handy here since DK's a heavy, but if he SDIs it quickly, Ivysaur WILL get punished. That said, I've found the risk to be worth it, as one good BS can get a nice 20-40% on DK, and every bit helps. Just make sure to end the move early so you don't get punished. I also can't remember if we can meteor cancel DK's spike, meaning going straight into Ivysaur's Vine Whip to quickly grab the edge as soon as we get dair'd. I think I'm using the right term here, but I may be mistaken, haha. I've used that quick recovery against many dairs, but I can't remember if DK is one of them at the moment. Toby, your point still stands, though: DK still has greater kill power and survivability against Ivysaur. I'd give the advantage to DK, but not as great as against Squirtle.
Charizard's a different story, at least in my experience. As I stated earlier, a jumping Flamethrower works nicely if you can predict a Ground Pound. Heck, just Rock Smash that. DK's tilts outrange ours, which is usually a strongpoint of Charizard's. Shielding his tilts and then grabbing is still easy, though. We don't have grab release options against DK, though, due to his frame 3 jab that will come out as soon as he's released from our grab. Now as far as going offstage, Charizard's fair destroys DK, and DK's relatively easy to spike with our dair. Most of my kils as Charizard against DK come from offstage KOs. Either that or the generic Rock Smash or upsmash KOs. I've always found Charizard to be the best of our three Pokemon. Usually Charizard's been good for 1-2 stocks when I play DKs. I'd say Charizard has the advantage here: Charizard can KO DK, has more range than our other two Pokemon, and can limit DK's horizontal recovery with his fair.
One thing I'm not sure of is if DK has a dthrow chaingrab on any of us. If he does, I haven't had it used against me.
If I'm saying anything that's blatantly obvious, I apologize. Normally I don't comment much on character matchups because I feel I don't have enough matchup experience--or not as much as other PTs here on these boards--with the character in question, but DK is one of the characters I feel I have enough experience with to discuss.
And in DK's defense, I think it's so sad that D3 has that standing infinite on him.
Ground Pound lingers for a while, though. At lower percents, we should be able to punish that lag. At higher percents, I've never faced a DK that used Ground Pound, however. The knockback on this would be much higher at high percents of course, so I thiiiink that would make it much more difficult to punish the move's lag. Do you have any videos of your DK friend?
With Ivysaur, if I see a DK's tilting a lot, I get back and Razor Leaf him to force him to approach. With Squirtle, I usually shellshift and try to fake him so he tilts, then I can go in for a punish (although that's what I do against most characters as Squirtle, ahaha). With Charizard, I shieldgrab or do a jumping flamethrower.
I'll emphasize again though Squirtle's limitations in this matchup. Without shellshifting, Squirtle's too predictable against DK. Squirtle's fair in particular is way too easy for DK to shieldgrab. Overusing shellshifting or misproperly using shellshifting leads to getting tilted, fsmash, or dsmashed, and Squirtle's ridiculously easy for DK to KO. Additionally, after a while of my roomie and I playing, he got to the point where it was very, very easy for him to spike Squirtle mid-Waterfall. And when offstage, DK's bair outranges us even easier. So Squirtle-DK, I find DK to have an advantage.
Ivysaur-DK is better. We can Razor Leaf spam his tilts. I've found bair to be effective here at spacing DK, but I'm not sure if that's because I've timed it well or it actually outranges DK's ftilt. I'm more inclined to think the former. Bullet Seed is handy here since DK's a heavy, but if he SDIs it quickly, Ivysaur WILL get punished. That said, I've found the risk to be worth it, as one good BS can get a nice 20-40% on DK, and every bit helps. Just make sure to end the move early so you don't get punished. I also can't remember if we can meteor cancel DK's spike, meaning going straight into Ivysaur's Vine Whip to quickly grab the edge as soon as we get dair'd. I think I'm using the right term here, but I may be mistaken, haha. I've used that quick recovery against many dairs, but I can't remember if DK is one of them at the moment. Toby, your point still stands, though: DK still has greater kill power and survivability against Ivysaur. I'd give the advantage to DK, but not as great as against Squirtle.
Charizard's a different story, at least in my experience. As I stated earlier, a jumping Flamethrower works nicely if you can predict a Ground Pound. Heck, just Rock Smash that. DK's tilts outrange ours, which is usually a strongpoint of Charizard's. Shielding his tilts and then grabbing is still easy, though. We don't have grab release options against DK, though, due to his frame 3 jab that will come out as soon as he's released from our grab. Now as far as going offstage, Charizard's fair destroys DK, and DK's relatively easy to spike with our dair. Most of my kils as Charizard against DK come from offstage KOs. Either that or the generic Rock Smash or upsmash KOs. I've always found Charizard to be the best of our three Pokemon. Usually Charizard's been good for 1-2 stocks when I play DKs. I'd say Charizard has the advantage here: Charizard can KO DK, has more range than our other two Pokemon, and can limit DK's horizontal recovery with his fair.
One thing I'm not sure of is if DK has a dthrow chaingrab on any of us. If he does, I haven't had it used against me.
If I'm saying anything that's blatantly obvious, I apologize. Normally I don't comment much on character matchups because I feel I don't have enough matchup experience--or not as much as other PTs here on these boards--with the character in question, but DK is one of the characters I feel I have enough experience with to discuss.
And in DK's defense, I think it's so sad that D3 has that standing infinite on him.
Magik0722
Smash Champion
DKs scare me
ah well at least i have the d3 infinite perfectly down
ah well at least i have the d3 infinite perfectly down
DK can do scary things but i don't think it's all that difficult to avoid the most devastating of it...i'm going to money match ripple at no koast 2 so we'll see how that goes
he can air release chain grab squirtle, the only attack follow up is dash attack
he might be able to uair/usmash ivysaur out of air release, the frame data allows for it
he can air release chain grab squirtle, the only attack follow up is dash attack
he might be able to uair/usmash ivysaur out of air release, the frame data allows for it
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Standing infinites and infinites in general are the biggest Sakurai goof in Brawl.
Let's get back to social stuff. I don't like great apes. Except flame-broiled with a razor leaf garnish.
Let's get back to social stuff. I don't like great apes. Except flame-broiled with a razor leaf garnish.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Steeler, be sure to get some vids!
pray to God you don't go to Battlefield. That is a steel(er) cage match you will not win.
T-block
B2B TST
I find that between Flamethrower, shieldgrab (and jabs to a certain extent) you can make it very hard for DK to approach Charizard, especially if you're on a platform stage like Yoshi's Island or Lylat Cruise
CoonTail
Smash Lord
-The shield grab on DK's tilts from a hydroplanning squirtle is too good. I have played Will one of NY's best DK's next to Bum when he actually chooses to play and shield grabbing the tilts because he thinks Im hydroplanning jabs is the way to go. Always keep a charged watergun because when he does down-b you can push him straight off the stage similar to zelda v. squirtle. Also its hard to do but the U-tilt combos squirtle has on DK are wrong. If one U-tilt hits you can basically plan on continuing until hes out of range the follow up with the U-airs. More or less my biggest worry if the u-air on squirtle it basically means death period. Overall shell-shifting hydroplaning and reverse shifting throw DK's spacing off real Will had a real hard time trying to figure out if I was fading back waiting for him to approach...if I was gonna slide into approach...or if I was jus semi shell shift camping. If you confused them with squirtle they tend to move forward and attempt to respace or jus start throwing tilts. It leaves them as way to obvious and gives you an easy option for a shield grab. The forward hydroplane when Dk starts to respace you scares them so the game becomes messing with DK's ability to predict and cancel our approach.
Zard's grab and rock smasg counter stop the tilts real hard. I find the scary part against DK is his raw power is basically greater and better ranged than all of our poke's so we really need to pay heavy attention to the DK's reaction to us and more or less begin to know how he will react otherwise his upper hand gets way to high if he corners you.
Lastly how come there have been zero Godzilla v. King Kong references, is it because America had to have King Kong win even though we all know godzilla would have loved a freshly grilled ape?
Godzilla > KingKong ****ing apes!!!!
Zard's grab and rock smasg counter stop the tilts real hard. I find the scary part against DK is his raw power is basically greater and better ranged than all of our poke's so we really need to pay heavy attention to the DK's reaction to us and more or less begin to know how he will react otherwise his upper hand gets way to high if he corners you.
Lastly how come there have been zero Godzilla v. King Kong references, is it because America had to have King Kong win even though we all know godzilla would have loved a freshly grilled ape?
Godzilla > KingKong ****ing apes!!!!
T-block
B2B TST
godzilla is more bowser i thought, and charizard isn't bowser (lol)
dk is less affected than other characters when it comes to spacing against a shellshifting squirtle. the larger hitboxes and stupid range mean he can cover more area so he doesn't have to predict you perfectly.
dk is less affected than other characters when it comes to spacing against a shellshifting squirtle. the larger hitboxes and stupid range mean he can cover more area so he doesn't have to predict you perfectly.
This. 10this-es.
And GROUND POUND. Guh. Shellshifting and hydros will not be effective. Its range is MASSIVE. It extends just further than his ftilt. Smartest option is to limit your shellshifting, and when you NEED it, rip out a fwd hp for the kill/switch or hydrograb him to the edge and dthrow. Also, dthrow>dtilt/ftilt>down B is a chain from a fresh stock and does over 30% unless you can tech roll when he dthrows.
T-block
B2B TST
yeah i dunno why i didn't mention ground pound... you can still shellshift in and out of his range, but his range is so big that if you do that you'll be too far away from him still to do much.
if you have to play squirtle vs dk, use full-hop d-air <3 works so nicely against him
if you have to play squirtle vs dk, use full-hop d-air <3 works so nicely against him
Toby.
Smash Master
Id you land up tilt combos on DK it usually means he isn't spacing properly. He has excellent tools to keeping us out. Shellshifting fails in this matchup.
Basically just reinforcing what vermy and t-block said.
Edit: hadn't read the previous page before posting this. In response - properly spaced ground pound stops us from just running in. So does massive tilt range. The DK player knows not to attack my shield, and is way too smart just just run into bullet seed.
If he knows I'm going for a bullet seed he either backs off and keeps outspacing me, or headbutts by shield. Bullet seed is only the answer against DK's who don't have experience with the matchup imo. Rememeber, all it takes is for him to shield the bullet seed and we take a reeaaaal powerful smash.
The only moves that can punish a proper ground pound are razor leaf and flamethrower. Rock smash can also work, but I believe it can be shielded in time.
And yes charizard camps DK well.
Basically just reinforcing what vermy and t-block said.
Edit: hadn't read the previous page before posting this. In response - properly spaced ground pound stops us from just running in. So does massive tilt range. The DK player knows not to attack my shield, and is way too smart just just run into bullet seed.
If he knows I'm going for a bullet seed he either backs off and keeps outspacing me, or headbutts by shield. Bullet seed is only the answer against DK's who don't have experience with the matchup imo. Rememeber, all it takes is for him to shield the bullet seed and we take a reeaaaal powerful smash.
The only moves that can punish a proper ground pound are razor leaf and flamethrower. Rock smash can also work, but I believe it can be shielded in time.
And yes charizard camps DK well.