Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[TheReflexWonder]

If Wario techs Ganondorf's side-B, will he have enough time to waft before Ganondorf can react?

If Ganondorf guesses correctly, he will punish you for any action you take after his Forward-B lands.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Hey Uh. What do I do against characters that can punish my jumps in neutral? Like a rob firing lasers or a megaman firing pellets? Diddys banana also falls into this category as he's just gonna toss it at me when I land. I seem to lose to anti air options like those all too often and it hurts.

I also have enough question, what kind of movements should I be doing when I'm feeling my opponent out in neutral?

Any fellow warios have a word of advice?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hey Uh. What do I do against characters that can punish my jumps in neutral? Like a rob firing lasers or a megaman firing pellets? Diddys banana also falls into this category as he's just gonna toss it at me when I land. I seem to lose to anti air options like those all too often and it hurts.

Change it up between normal fall and fastfall. Use your Bike in advance so that you start moving forward a little after you land. B-Reversing your Neutral-B helps by making a space where it's not safe to be and by throwing off what happens, making it harder for them to react adequately.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Change it up between normal fall and fastfall. Use your Bike in advance so that you start moving forward a little after you land. B-Reversing your Neutral-B helps by making a space where it's not safe to be and by throwing off what happens, making it harder for them to react adequately.

A follow up question if you were to be so kind. What would I be doing in neutral? When I say this I mean should I outright run away and stay far away from my opponent, or should I camp but stay close enough to them to threaten space? What about against characters with strong camp games like like or villager, do I approach?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There is no catch-all answer. The important part is to be unpredictable. Wario's mobility and options are good enough to make it so people have to guess when they come in on you, which is actually pretty daunting for many characters/opponents. Run turnaround cancel, jump backward, just try to make it so they're not prepared to defend when you move forward.

Against characters who cannot threaten you significantly when you run away (Rosalina, Villager), I'd recommend camping and running away more than normal in order to charge the Waft.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

There is no catch-all answer. The important part is to be unpredictable. Wario's mobility and options are good enough to make it so people have to guess when they come in on you, which is actually pretty daunting for many characters/opponents. Run turnaround cancel, jump backward, just try to make it so they're not prepared to defend when you move forward.

Against characters who cannot threaten you significantly when you run away (Rosalina, Villager), I'd recommend camping and running away more than normal in order to charge the Waft.

So I shouldn't be approaching, but I should be pushing my space forward and gaining more space while not particularly looking to rack up damage? It's a stage control thing?

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

So let me know what you guys think of sh autocancel B-air being used in neutral. This is currently how I see it, but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.

I never really liked to use it at low percents because I thought of it to be a kill move that I didn't want to stale out, but I'm starting to think it might also be "somewhat good" for low %s. I still don't really use it that much unless off stage or reading a ledge-jump. The move sends opponents into tumble a little earlier than sweetspot nair and fair (at least from what I calculated :\), meaning, at low percents, you could possible get a tech chase situation. I could see it being an alternative option to n-air when n-air is harder to land (you should still use n-air, no doubt), like against short characters. It might also be good against short characters because usually short characters are floaty and so if they miss the tech and you d-tilt, they'll probably be in enough hitstun for you to get a grab+u-throw, but again I'm not really sure.

If you b-air someone's shield and don't fast fall it, the total lag Wario incurs is 28 frames (26 frames of air lag and 2 of soft landing lag), assuming you hit the opponent on the attack's 1st frame. It has 8 frames of shieldstun, so the frame advantage ends up being -20 on shield. If the opponent grabs with a 30 frame grab, you end up being +10 frames to your opponent as long as you spaced the b-air. +10 frames basically guarantees you a d-tilt or even f-tilt if you're seeing the opponent didn't buffer the grab immediately out of shieldstun. Yes, the opponent can jump oos and try to hit you after b-air, but I don't think they could be able to catch you unless they have a fast aerial with good range, since Wario's air speed is pretty good and you could fade away after the hit or just space to begin with. Idk about you guys, but I always accidentally buffer a grab oos during shieldstun instead of sh-nair because of the buffer input priority, so maybe the opponent will too, in which case you turn-around d-tilt, f-tilt or dash attack.

Anyway, if they try to drop shield and punish, b-air becomes -13 on shield. It's not really that bad considering how much space and time (in frames) Wario can cover by fading back after the attack. Whatever the case, whether it's supposed to be a frame trap move or not, the move has 27 frames of lag so fast falling it probably wasn't the intent for the move. Usually fast fall b-air shouldn't ever be done unless you see the opponent is in some kind of lag.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Was messing around with this; looks like something we should be using more, especially in matchups where it's difficult to throw buttons out. Well-spaced retreating shorthop B-Air on shield is only really punishable by extreme burst range. This means the dumbest Dash Attacks and ~the Top 10 run speeds are what can punish it. Pikachu, Diddy Kong and Mario are notably too slow to punish it on shield if they're not already carrying forward momentum.

On top of that, this has good synergy with B-Reverse Neutral-B, as people looking to shield and punish will often get caught by it, and since it's still a shorthop immediate Neutral-B, you have five fewer endlag frames if you miss.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Exactly, I used to say Wario couldn't throw things out for free in neutral, but it seems b-air seems almost as good as f-air, at least on paper (in terms of safeness), so maybe it can be thrown out for free? Analog short hop back retreating f-air is also still really good. F-air can be fast-falled on short hop and it will still autocancel, so it's still a little better. You would lose lots of stage control if you spammed b-air or f-air tho, so I feel retreating b-air could only really be free is if you had stage control/had space to retreat.. I think Wario's f-air and b-air work great with d-tilt right afterwards, and I think d-tilt is wario's most underrated move. Sh-fair+fast fall+d-tilt and retreating b-air+turnaround d-tilt make Wario amazing on the ground <3. It's almost like when Yoshi lands and throws out a jab, but it's a little slower with a tad bit more range (Yoshi's jab range is incredible). Wario's d-tilt iirc is 1 frame safer than diddy's and like 3 or 4 more than little mac's. Last thing, empty hop+d-tilt is such a free approach on so many characters.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I like to use it at ealier percentages because fair sometimes has too little knock back to push people out neutral.

It's also worth noting that full hop fair fast fall auto cancels. It's great.

 

[Micaelis]

I use SH AC Bair liberally in most MUs. Using that mixed with RTC, and Jump Back makes your Dash Grabs, SH/FH Fairs, and RTC Dtilts all the more harder to react to. It's just annoying how perfect you have to be to get the auto cancel; it's almost a tech in itself. It's really nice to see numbers supporting the use of it officially though.

I must admit though that I use it more frequently against taller characters, ones with larger disjointed hit boxes due to the added range over Fair, or fast aerial shorter ranged characters like Mario, Pika, and Peach.

The biggest downside to it is the characters who cannot be hit by it when running at you. Someone should compile a list of characters that can't be hit by SH AC Bair when standing/running towards Wario (Greninja may be the only character standing who avoids it if he even does at all). I'm bad at things like that or I would.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

After labbing it, you can SH fair fast fall and it will auto cancel. Timing is tricky, you have to delay the fast fall by a little bit but once you get down the timing it seems like it would be god like.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Dumb, quick questions. As Wario in general, when should I be using utilt?

 

[PokeMarioRevolution]

Dumb, quick questions. As Wario in general, when should I be using utilt?

Throw it out when you can, it's pretty viable. I've been using Wario since Day 1 3DS and currently I think Up Air or Nair would follow up well.

 

[Sari]

I use u-tilt whenever someone is approaching from above since it sends them at a fair distance and it's much quicker than u-smash (plus I think the hitbox is active for a bit longer). Looking at it now, it's probably better to just use up-air.

I've actually used up-tilt to hit through Sonic's homing attacks and ZSS's down-b without receiving damage a few times (though the timing is really strict).

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

use u-tilt whenever someone is approaching from above since it sends them at a fair distance and it's much quicker than u-smash

It's actually a frame slower than U-smash. Some uses include punishing air-dodges when opponents air-dodge after u-air (or when they air-dodge while landing in general) or as a move that flat out beats some aerials the opponent might try to land with, like fox's d-air. I'd like to think that during the sweetspot of the move, the hitbox hits higher than u-smash.

 

[PokeMarioRevolution]

I've started practicing with Up Tilt and it's very handy when they're trying to get up from the ledge because it can lead in to some aerial combos, a bite, or an edgeguard

 

[Snorley]

Dumb, quick questions. As Wario in general, when should I be using utilt?

I use uptilt primarily over upsmash at low percent to catch any characters trying to land into your shield with auto canceling aerial due to the fact that it lasts longer than upsmash (active frames). And just like upsmash, wario uptilt is invincible as wario has no hurtbox on his hands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJIoS7p_c7s
reflex in this video used the bumper to show the big disjoint on it
common moves that Up tilt can easily beat are:
Fox down air (they will dair your shield and land behind you so they can uptilt you as a mixup)
mario falling nair or fallling down air (mario players are usually thoughtless and will throw it out from above in haste of hitting you)
(there is more but those were the obvious one who came to mind)

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

mario players are usually thoughtless

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Up Tilt can give Wario mostely a smile though. The late hit is also great but it's hard to pull it out.

If it does however.......

 

[Snorley]

essentially.. at mlg ally did 7 upsmashes against reflex on battlefield and it was disgusting how unpunishable it was lol

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

essentially.. at mlg ally did 7 upsmashes against reflex on battlefield and it was disgusting how unpunishable it was lol

You have to learn to respect a characters options or you don't get better. It's kind of BS that mario gets away with throwing out his kill moves left and right but when you can't beat a certain move just don't challenge it.

What are the percentages for nair to waft to connect? I mean the strong hit not the head butt. What are the best ways to connect up airs?

Sorry for asking multiple question I just really feel like I barely connect wafts in my matches.

 

[Spinosaurus]

What are the percentages for nair to waft to connect? I mean the strong hit not the head butt. What are the best ways to connect up airs?

Sorry for asking multiple question I just really feel like I barely connect wafts in my matches.

It's pretty character dependent. Percentage can vary from 20% to around 40. Not sure what you mean with your UAir question. There aren't any tricks with landing UAir.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Sneaky boy Nick When it comes to landing U-airs, practice is your best tool to gaining consistency.

I like practicing fast-falling U-airs from Lylat platforms. If I short hop, I personally input the u-air right before reaching the apex of my hop and then fast falling after reaching the apex. I don't really go for it too much on short characters unless they're fast fallers like fox. I've seen aMSa practice Full Hop Fast Fall fairs with greninja on kirby, probably because kirby is so short and it's a model to achieve perfection. Full hop air dodge + fast fall u-air is a good approach as well. It's a hard move to land, but I think it requires the right amount of skill when you consider the reward.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

It's pretty character dependent. Percentage can vary from 20% to around 40. Not sure what you mean with your UAir question. There aren't any tricks with landing UAir.

For the nair sometimes I feel like I hit people at the right percent around 20-40 and they end up too far away. For the up air what I'm saying is I want to land fast fall up airs without me getting clobbered for landing right on top of them.

Sneaky boy Nick When it comes to landing U-airs, practice is your best tool to gaining consistency.

I like practicing fast-falling U-airs from Lylat platforms. If I short hop, I personally input the u-air right before reaching the apex of my hop and then fast falling after reaching the apex. I don't really go for it too much on short characters unless they're fast fallers like fox. I've seen aMSa practice Full Hop Fast Fall fairs with greninja on kirby, probably because kirby is so short and it's a model to achieve perfection. Full hop air dodge + fast fall u-air is a good approach as well. It's a hard move to land, but I think it requires the right amount of skill when you consider the reward.

So I should run off the platform and do it? I just don't want to be obvious with my attempt as you pretty much have to land on them to hit them with it.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Sneaky boy Nick

It's one way to approach with falling U-air. Whether it's obvious or not is up to you. Fast falling off a platform with it happens in around 16 frames or less which isn't bad and not incredibly reactable to. If you want my opinion I'd say it's pretty good as long as you don't make it obvious to your opponent that you want it by whiffing the move when you really need it. Sometimes being patient and getting the necessary positioning for you to get a falling u-air is what it takes. Yeah, you have to land right on top of them, but be glad Wario isn't the most technically demanding character in smash.

 

[Snorley]

You have to learn to respect a characters options or you don't get better. It's kind of BS that mario gets away with throwing out his kill moves left and right but when you can't beat a certain move just don't challenge it.

What are the percentages for nair to waft to connect? I mean the strong hit not the head butt. What are the best ways to connect up airs?

Sorry for asking multiple question I just really feel like I barely connect wafts in my matches.

well yea i respect it... im just saying its dumb.... also at the top of this thread there is a table with all the percentage for nair to waft.. its always the 2nd hit of nair that combos into it never the first hit

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario's Forward-B is one of a few recovery moves that normally don't "regenerate" until your feet touch the ground, along with things like Yoshi Up-B, R.O.B. Up-B, and Villager Up-B. Grabbing the ledge will not give you your Bike if you've already used it while in the air.

HOWEVER (and I don't know if this is just news to me), if you do a Ledge Jump, Wario will be able to use his Bike again without having to land on the ground. This appears to be unique to Wario and might be the start of next-level run-away strategies.

Combined with the ability to accelerate the Bike in mid-air on a platform/on the edge of the stage ( https://youtu.be/Oe_9S06yKMk?t=15s ), this could potentially be extremely obnoxious. If you're rising when you pull out your Bike and there is ground underneath your tires (immediately after a jump, most likely), you get the maximum speed immediately, and this is safe on shield against most characters (and very, very difficult to punish for the rest).

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

What are warios best options to punish defensive rolls? a lot of the time when my opponent to retreating rolls to get out of bad situations I try to hit them but never seem to quite get them most of the time. Dash grab seems too slow.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dash Attack is his best (and only) option in most cases. Rolls are stupid in this game.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Dash Attack is his best (and only) option in most cases. Rolls are stupid in this game.

Thanks. I'm usually one to admit my faults but I genuinely felt like wario couldn't punish it unless he hard committed to a read or something.

I guess the best thing to do just take the space they are giving you huh?

A few times I caught people but I had to preemptively run past were they currently were and if they chose to do anything else I'd get punished. Bike is too slow. warios aerials don't seem to get that far fast enough either. A lot of the time I end up right infront of my opponent while trying to nair their retreat so I'd eat an f-smash or something for punishing their bad habits.

When I sit down and analyze the game it really feels like burst range rules the game. things like metaknight dash attack most of all.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

N-air can punish rolls, but you'd probably have to act preemptively .

 

[TheReflexWonder]

N-Air punishes rolls about at the same distance as any other aerial, which isn't so great. Moving forward preemptively is asking to get murdered on shield. The rolls in this game are outrageous.

 

[Snorley]

Thanks. I'm usually one to admit my faults but I genuinely felt like wario couldn't punish it unless he hard committed to a read or something.

I guess the best thing to do just take the space they are giving you huh?

A few times I caught people but I had to preemptively run past were they currently were and if they chose to do anything else I'd get punished. Bike is too slow. warios aerials don't seem to get that far fast enough either. A lot of the time I end up right infront of my opponent while trying to nair their retreat so I'd eat an f-smash or something for punishing their bad habits.

When I sit down and analyze the game it really feels like burst range rules the game. things like metaknight dash attack most of all.

remember you don't always have to attempt to punish every roll... you can look at them shadow boxing and patiently charge waft.. as you wait for another opportunity to poke or deal damage

 

[DoubleD]

Pretty Generic Question here - I've heard Wario described as a Bait and Punish character, so assuming that's true, what are some Baits? How do you even describe a bait in this game? Looking punishable while in fact having an option that covers "vulnerability?"

 

[ElDood]

Pretty Generic Question here - I've heard Wario described as a Bait and Punish character, so assuming that's true, what are some Baits? How do you even describe a bait in this game? Looking punishable while in fact having an option that covers "vulnerability?"

I'm sure there are more than this, but my favorite bait and punish comes from Wario's edge guards.

The jump bite or Short hop bite catches almost all edge recoveries (jump, stand, attack) save for roll. When my opponents discover that the ledge roll is safe against the bite, I always know that's what they'll rely on when they see Wario open his mouth. However, if you KNOW they're gonna roll, you can open your mouth and immediately close it, then turn around and FSmash before they're safe (depending on the length of the roll.) I have caught so... many... people with Wario's brutal FSmash this way, and it makes them scared when it works.

Of course, the ultimate Wario bait and punish is scaring people with the fart. When you're glowing, just wait for the roll or airdodge and let 'er rip. It's also fun to catch recoveries with the fart since you know where the opponent needs to be to survive.

 

[Tayman]

What do yall think of down tilt down till roll behind grab I find this very effective against people who like to jab out of it maybe you even can down till after you roll behind then grab

 

[Snorley]

What do yall think of down tilt down till roll behind grab I find this very effective against people who like to jab out of it maybe you even can down till after you roll behind then grab

yea he doesnt get nearly as much frame adavantage as diddy does with his... its mad inconsistent

 

[Tayman]

Yeah that why I only go for it for If i notice the person tries to jab out of things

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I can almost always get a grab off of down tilt for whatever reason, even at low percents when it shouldn't be guaranteed