Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[Spinosaurus]

How much is the bike affected by this?

I can't really test anything right now.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

I know a lot of you guys are excited about this, but I'm not sure how useful this really is in the end when just about every character in the game, including our worst match ups (Sheik, Diddy), benefits greatly from this. We need to luck at what REALLY helps Wario out here, not just minor stuff, game changing stuff. If we can't find any of those, well, this whole thing is a wash.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wafty said dair may poke now but he can't 100% confirm it currently.

So if anyone could check that'd be appreciated.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

N-Air is four frames safer on both sweetspot and sourspot. In particular, sweetspot N-Air as close to the ground as possible is -8 on shield now, meaning it's 0 on a shield drop.

On top of not really being hittable between N-Air hits outside of invincible Up-Bs, N-Air is noticeably better. Fullhop immediate N-Air -> buffer N-Air is at the perfect height, but I'd say you'd better start practicing your fullhop F-Air -> fastfall -> N-Air timings.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

but I'd say you'd better start practicing your fullhop F-Air -> fastfall -> N-Air timings.

^why wouldn't you just up-air?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

^why wouldn't you just up-air?

U-Air requires you to be directly above someone and is slower to come out ("it's less safe") and is physically impossible to hit some characters with due to being too short. If U-Air is powershielded you're right next to them, while a well-spaced N-Air keeps a bit of distance. It's not a bad option (and is great against tall characters without great defensive tools), but N-Air is safer and more reliable across the whole cast.

D-Tilt is four frames safer on non-powershield, going from -12 to -8, which, like N-Air, has frame advantage of 0 on a shield drop. That means it's real shield pressure if spaced reasonably well.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Ok makes sense, but while up-air is slower than nair to come out, you're always trying to hit them 1 frame before hitting the ground anyway? Am I correct?

The spacing part I can't argue.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's true, but you'll have a harder time making people wonder, "Is he gonna attack me or just retreat?" if you're directly above them. They'll be much more inclined to U-Smash or roll out of shield in that case.

I dunno. I'm a pretty conservative player, so my line of thinking has always been "not taking damage is better than potentially dealing a lot of damage in a riskier way." There's a time and place for everything, though. U-Air freezing them in place for longer makes it safe against shieldgrabs if you're not absolutely directly on top of them.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

True, plus nair autocancels up to the sweetspot whereas up-air doesn't.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Full hop dair then nair seems really solid. You can get the initial hitbox just right before you land if you master it which seems to be 100% safe on shield. It looks like a really good way to gain space and pressure your opponent.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fullhop D-Air ends two frames earlier than fullhop N-Air, so a buffered N-Air follow-up doesn't put you as close to the ground. Also, D-Air has 28 frames of endlag whereas N-Air has 11. You can fastfall that fullhop N-Air to give people a reason not to chase, which you can't do for D-Air.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Fullhop D-Air ends two frames earlier than fullhop N-Air, so a buffered N-Air follow-up doesn't put you as close to the ground. Also, D-Air has 28 frames of endlag whereas N-Air has 11. You can fastfall that fullhop N-Air to give people a reason not to chase, which you can't do for D-Air.

Dair has better hitboxes that make it scarier to challenge but I see your point. So you do full hop nair fast fall then nair? Or full hop> nair fast fall? Or is the fast falling part just a mix up?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fullhop N-Air -> N-Air, or just fullhop N-Air -> fastfall to get the end of the N-Air to threaten them early (you won't be able to throw out a second N-Air in that case). It's a mix-up.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

You also mentioned FH Nair had good synergy with chomp.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I feel like these changes overall improved wario relative to the cast, wario never gets punished for flat out whiffing aerials anyway unless you don't drift back and now his aerials are safer than ever on shield. Mobility has become more important and that's somewhere wario really shines.

What are your personal opinions on the patch and how it changed wario?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He got fewer benefits than the average character, I think. Aerials are still awkward and hard to land with. Few strong moves to space with. The patch will incentivize people to move away and shield less, both of which hurt Wario. You'll still be playing largely the same way, but I think most other characters will get more out of hitting shields.

If other characters become more of a threat as a result, it may indirectly help Wario, considering his worst matchups tend to be among the current top tiers.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I have officially fallen in love with Rose Waft. The range on it makes it an absolutely ridiculous edgeguarding tool.

 

[Routa]

I have officially fallen in love with Rose Waft. The range on it makes it an absolutely ridiculous edgeguarding tool.

Yeah, and even if you don't manage to kill your foe... Well watch the % rise. Rose is extremely good in the bike set up and it is great even when you don't use the set up (for example when you have Speedy Bike).

 

[Goodstyle_4]

I have officially fallen in love with Rose Waft. The range on it makes it an absolutely ridiculous edgeguarding tool.

It is by far the best variation of the Waft and possibly the best special in the game.

-It comes out fast.
-It has enormous range.
-It does a ton of damage.
-It has kill power.
-It charges quickly so there isn't a big risk in wiffing (even though it is hilariously easy to land).

The move is amazing, and if customs were ever to become standard in competitive play, Wario would shoot up in tiers.

 

[Andaya]

Does the Diddy grab glitch majorly affect Wario? I think that as long as you don't use the jab a lot, the glitch shouldn't trigger. The only problem is D-Air...

 

[Rakurai]

The fact that Diddy can't shield at all if he wants to preserve the glitch doesn't really make it that big of an issue for characters who aren't dependent on their grabs for combo setups.

 

[Andaya]

The fact that Diddy can't shield at all if he wants to preserve the glitch doesn't really make it that big of an issue for characters who aren't dependent on their grabs for combo setups.

Still, if the glitch does activate, we can't Chomp him and that's not good at all

 

[Rakurai]

You can't chomp him, but he also can't defend against moves like dair or nair effectively without his shield, as both of them deal with spotdodges and rolls rather easily.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Our D-Tilt and Dash Attack would be a good way to discourage him from abusing it, but, shoot.

 

[Tayman]

Hey is their anyplace I can see wario's hit and hurt boxes on his moves?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hey is their anyplace I can see wario's hit and hurt boxes on his moves?

Not really.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I'm also starting to be not as fond to Speed Bike as a lot of high level Warios are. It can absolutely destroy some characters, and the follow up potential is pretty good. But the lack of turning and very low health can really hurt at times. Once in a match I was facing a Toon Link, I was offstage edgeguarding him, and as I tried to get back his Up-B managed to destroy my bike and I ended up dying.

I also find that Regular Bike is super practical, and has way more mixup potential.

 

[Adrian Marin]

It's worth noting that thanks to the change in shield mechanics, Wario's aerials are now safer on shield, particularly Uair. I don't know if Uair was almost unpunishable on shield prior to the patch, but now it probably is. Furthermore, getting Fair strings should also be easier to pull off, since the shield nerf gives Wario mains incentive to throw it out a little more. Overall, however, I don't think Wario has changed much.

 

[Tayman]

hey guys instead of puting the bike on stage to edge guard i like to go offstage on my edge guards and uses my bike to come back to the stage, do you think this is smart or should i stay on the stage?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's all character-dependent. Some characters are basically impervious offstage while others are relatively easy to intercept.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

It's all character-dependent. Some characters are basically impervious offstage while others are relatively easy to intercept.

Throwing the bike seem to work well against pikachu because his hurtbox freaks out when he up Bs.

 

[Boost4u]

I am noticing top level warios not going for dthrow -> Bike -> wheelie. I know it's not a true combo but it gets most characters in most scenarios foe a nice 24%.
Why do they not go for it. The only drawbacks are if an aerial can come out in time with good DI, or if they getup attack fast enough, and pulling it off usually puts wario off stage. I can just double jump side b and return to neutral.

 

[Revax]

I believe all characters can jump before they land and that's what people should always do since Wario can't get much out of it then. It's more beneficial against higher level players to u-throw as you can catch a landing or juggle them on top of higher base damage.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Does anyone ever wonder why Wario's d-air isn't able to auto-cancel on short-hop in this game? I didn't play Brawl so I'm not sure how ridiculous it was in that game, but I know Wario's air speed was nerfed anyway, so I fail to see why it needed to be nerfed in this way specifically. Yes, Wario can land-cancel d-air, and I don't think that was a mechanic in brawl, so d-air still has a unique purpose+it's great for edge-guarding (but I assume that was in brawl too). At high percents it's a kill move and can combo from an aerial bike hit. But it makes me wonder if d-air has a purpose out of full hop. The only thing I can think of atm is doing a max fade away fh cross up-dair with the possibility of shield poking, and if the opponents character is slow they might not be able to catch you or maybe you could throw out a move or your second jump (:\) after fading away if they can catch up to you.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In Brawl, it did 16% and was safe on block if you autocanceled just right.

Thing is, a ton of characters wish they autocanceled like they used to. The issue isn't unique to Wario. It's likely that aerials were such a high-reward, low-commitment option in past games to the point where they often became premier spacing tools. I think they were trying to mitigate the game's focus on them in the neutral position.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

1. Does anyone have any clue what determines how the bike pieces explode, like how far the frame, engine, and wheels blast away. I've been messing around with it for like 20 minutes straight and it's driving me crazy. Random, but f-smash seems to break the bike in one hit, so it seems to be the quickest way to destroy the bike if you have enough time to.

2. Also, I tried labbing Mario a bit, well a lot. If Wario and Mario both buffer a f-air and b-air respectively, both hitboxes will be out on the same frame 11. Super Mario's will nearly always beat Wario's f-air or trade, even if well spaced.

F-air, in theory, seems to be best used as either a shield-stop (or no shield-stop) max retreating f-air (shield, L to short hop, hold away from Mario and C-stick towards Mario) or analog jump retreating F-air (both should ideally be buffered (you can wait a little bit to F-air if you want)). I tested it out and if Mario is frame perfect (same for Dark Pit), he can't drop shield, chase you, and grab if you space everything right. If the Mario you're fighting is bad, you can probably full-hop f-air, and go in. So I'll probably be trying sh-max retreating f-airs (if you go for the max retreat, you basically have to hope Mario runs into the move or tries to chase you afterwards in which case you can d-tilt before he gets you) in my own matches to see how this works. This is basically the Wario equivalent of Hungrybox preemptively Back-air-ing the space he expects his opponent to be and on shield it's completely safe (obv. not as good, and I haven't even tried it out in matches yet). Sweet-spot F-air basically puts Mario into tumble BASICALLY the same % sweet-spot nair does (I wonder if this is universal across the cast?). I actually just found this out, and never saw anywhere that said smoke trails actually indicate the opponent will be put into tumble, so I just thought I'd say that, because it could help you determine if you want to go for a land+d-tilt or just fade away. This means up to 46%, short hop f-air with the intent of approaching or following up is virtually useless, as Mario can shield or jab before you get any follow-up. I was testing this on ike, and it seems spamming d-tilt after knocking the opponent into tumble can actually cover both missed tech and tech in place (when buffering the second d-tilt, but I'll confirm this a later day) Mario's D-air will flat out beat Wario's back-air unless you space it to get the disjoint, it looks as jank as it sounds. Bike will not beat Mario's bair even if you rev it upwards as it will clank with the top of the bike and still hit Wario off! Wario's d-air at 0% rage can land-cancel, and you barely have enough a frame adv. to up-smash Mario (Mario is in landing lag as Wario's up-smash comes out and hits him, so you have to buffer it I assume), meaning in theory, you can full waft Mario out of d-air. I didn't test if Mario could fade away or nair after d-air. Also you can seemingly jump out of Mario's infamous combo after hit two of u-tilt, if you try to jump out earlier I think the first tilt-eats your jump lol.

3. I'm pretty sure I found the point of jab 1 and jab 2, and it's not going to sound amazing, but it would make complete sense as to why they tried to make jab 1 better link into jab 2. Jab 2 at any percent sends the opponent at a 75 degree angle and into tumble. At around 30-40 ish percent on battlefield, it'll send Mario up to the mid-level platform with no DI (30% for smashville platform; these numbers are not lower limits), if he doesn't tech it, that's what sourspot f-air jab reset was intended for in my opinion. No other move could set this platform missed tech better than jab 2 (other than f-air, which I've gotten a reset after once). Wario's sour-spot f-air even on a reset can knock the opponent off the platform and (my pretty smart friend told me this and it seems to be true from my testing, but I might be messing up in training mode) if the opponent falls off the platform after being reset (or hit in general off of a platform in a certain sliding way), he cannot tech, so you get a free waft usually near the edge of the stage (apparently it's in melee?). Yeah, I don't think that sounds too pretty, but why else make Wario's jab hit opponents so high lmao.

4. I was also labbing Ike a lot last night. I'll just say wait till super high percents to d-tilt combo or d-tilt grab or else you'll get jab/grabbed or both. Also short hop n-air hits ike so well. I just thought of this now but too tired to test. If you park the bike near the ledge and Ike chooses to up+b, you might be able to extend Ike's hitbox on the downwards slash of his aether attack (after the spinning nonsense), and that might be your primetime to d-air Ike (it would only be like 3 extra frames, but hey I'll take what I can get against edge-guarding Ike). Most likely this won't be anything special but it's worth looking into.

Let me know what you think, I really just want to make the Mario match-up better for others and especially myself.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fullhop immediate N-Air -> buffer N-Air is at the perfect height, but I'd say you'd better start practicing your fullhop F-Air -> fastfall -> N-Air timings.

To clarify, when you say N-air timings at the end of this sentence, you mean using the sweetspot or the sourspot of N-air?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sweetspot N-Air comes out riiiight before you land.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

You seemed really aggressive today, reflex.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

What are some reliable/guaranteed waft set ups?