Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[Waroh]

Just adding to a previous post of mine. You can also input side-B to remount the bike after tossing it in the same situations as before still causing no bounce damage to the bike.

While I was toying around with this, it once caused Wario to receive self-inflicted bike explosion damage. I have not been able to reproduce this, though I'm certain it's when doing it a little late.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Can someone give me advice on the pikachu match up? Up smash kills the wario.

 

[Roots]

So according to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1qk4Qo6ZU
ledge snap vulnerability is actually two frames and not one
Since Wario's dair apparently hits every other frame, if your positioning is right you theoretically would be able to always catch the person recovering

Not sure if its one of our best options for edgeguarding, as dash attack trip seems more reliable, and you can usually go far offstage as Wario and more aggressively edgeguard instead of waiting for them to almost recover.

Still an option

 

[Waroh]

So this happened today. Found it to be pretty hilarious:

I couldn't manage to do it again, sadly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I will investigate. Reminds me of what Brawl Wario affectionately called The Forbidden Technique in that a specific position causes the Bike to freak out and not know where to put you:

The Bike also does damage based on how quickly you're going relative to the normal speed, iirc (not sure if there's a damage cap in this game), so if that could be recreated, it could hurt more than normal.

EDIT: Got it on my second try. It appears to be hitting the edge while fully forward at a specific height. It's pretty hard, though, and it does seem to hurt more than normal (did 12% to a full-hopping Falcon; gonna try to make it hit as soon as it starts going up and see if we get more). Gonna see if it's stage-specific or what.

EDIT2: I've gotten it at somewhat varied timings, and sometimes it launches more forward than what happens in the video; the max damage I could get is 18%. I think the only thing that matters is being tilted at least somewhat downward while having the tire at a certain height at that edge. Seems to be specific to this stage.

 

[Waroh]

The Bike also does damage based on how quickly you're going relative to the normal speed, iirc (not sure if there's a damage cap in this game), so if that could be recreated, it could hurt more than normal.

EDIT: Got it on my second try. It appears to be hitting the edge while fully forward at a specific height. It's pretty hard, though, and it does seem to hurt more than normal (did 12% to a full-hopping Falcon; gonna try to make it hit as soon as it starts going up and see if we get more). Gonna see if it's stage-specific or what.

EDIT2: I've gotten it at somewhat varied timings, and sometimes it launches more forward than what happens in the video; the max damage I could get is 18%. I think the only thing that matters is being tilted at least somewhat downward while having the tire at a certain height at that edge. Seems to be specific to this stage.

Thanks for testing all of this. It's very interesting, I wasn't even considering the speed of the bike launch enabling it to do more damage. A tad disappointing if it really is specific to one stage, though.

Any chance you're able to perform a wheelie at the beginning of the launch? I really doubt it because I didn't see any sign of the bike 'landing' during this, but I'm curious now.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I believe what's happening is that something about that spot on the ground wants Wario to move upward, as if he's on a hill (hence the upward motion). By holding forward, you're accelerating when you get to the ground, and I think it's allowing you to accelerate repeatedly, getting you to a speed you can't normally get to.

Not sure if you can do a Wheelie while still flying upward, but I'm not sure why you'd want to. That'd do less damage and likely weaken your attack range.

 

[Waroh]

Not sure if you can do a Wheelie while still flying upward, but I'm not sure why you'd want to. That'd do less damage and likely weaken your attack range.

For no other reason than looking awesome! Surely it wouldn't be practical.

I'm tempted to make a custom stage based around this to see if I can gain even higher speeds. We can find out if there exists a damage cap if it's successful.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It seems that it runs on the same principle as Brawl, so I doubt there's a damage cap, and it's likely that the edge of Omega Gaur Plain is unique in its structure in a way that you couldn't replicate, but, feel free to try.

 

[Waroh]

Well, what I made was definitely not a replication of Omega Gaur Plains ledge, but it produced very similar results. Highest damage I've got was 26.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do you have a picture of the stage in question?

 

[Waroh]

Do you have a picture of the stage in question?

I've took a few screenshots of it now. The red indicates the landing areas of the stage I found it to occur.

While it looks like a freakish mess, I took into consideration about your theory and how it works. In this detailed shot of the right side, you'll see that they're very slightly slanted to the right. I added many of them only to make it easier to perform.

A screenshot of the Omega Gaur Plains does show that it also has a slope like that. And a Omega stages' shape does not seem to lie in most cases, (i.e. getting stage spiked on that little nook on Omega Windy Hill Zone/Omega Boxing Ring)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Good findings. I may look at other stages and see if such slants can be found.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Something I've been wondering about for while is how much shield damage can be done by the Bike turn around attack's 2 or 3 hitboxes? I think the damage done itself is pretty high and I would think it'd all stack onto a shield. I'm not sure if it scales with Bike Speed. Yesterday, I was playing against a Yoshi and I did the bike turn around because he was near the edge of the stage and I didn't want to go off stage. It brought yoshi's egg to pitch black and didn't, but almost, broke his shield.

I'll be getting the game and a Wii U hopefully next week, so I'll finally be able to post meaningful charts and data by then!

 

[Sari]

So I was fighting a Yoshi today and threw my bike at him after he hit the ground, which made him get up normally and led to me wafting on him.

Video:

Does this mean throwing the bike can be used as a jab lock? I'm not really familiar with jab locks though this looked like one.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

So I was fighting a Yoshi today and threw my bike at him after he hit the ground, which made him get up normally and led to me wafting on him.

Video:

Does this mean throwing the bike can be used as a jab lock? I'm not really familiar with jab locks though this looked like one.

Video is private breh.

 

[Sari]

Video is private breh.

Should be working now.

 

[Rakurai]

The bike has fixed knockback and never causes your opponent to lose their footing, so yes, it can jab reset at any percentage.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Poor Yoshi

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

So, I've been ranting on about the matchup on the boards for a while and discovered something that has made the peach match-up a lot better for Wario. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who felt peach is harder than falcon, but I haven't played any good falcons. Falcon can be combo'd hard while peach can't and her frame data mostly allows grounded punishment (not aerial) which I feel Wario properly lacks consistent tools for. Before I was just camping, throwing out the occasional sh bair or fade-away fair (more bair than fair, and even then I don't really attack much, maybe once every 7 sec. or so) and up+b OOS to counter her d-airs. I was literally playing "Waft or Bust: The Game." I didn't have too much trouble landing waft, but I had trouble tacking on damage and usually was always losing the percent battle. You can't play aggro against a good peach. Fair has ridiculous range and if peach fades back there's no way you can cover that much space and punish her (at least to my knowledge). I decided to try a new strategy today to tack on percent.

When the game began, I immediately parked the bike on the side of smashville. Peach floated around and was starting off with her usual dair attempting to get her free dair-to-fair combo. Shielded it, up-b'd, and landed near the bike. As the peach kept approaching, I down-threw the bike and it hit her doing somewhere near 30 damage (which we all know). I ask my friend "Um, can you air-dodge out of float?" He's like "...no." I said, "Ayy lmao" and proceeded to repeat this in part with my other refined strategy to combat his peach and it worked amazingly. I went from consistent high% 1 stock wins and losses to 2 stock and 1 stock low% wins.

Now, you might think this is gimmicky, because I'm literally endorsing a strategy that against any other character would seem high-risk high reward, because you're losing a recovery option and bike tosses are slow to execute. All I can say is this solution to the peach matchup feels exactly like Chomp vs. , extremely useful, but you can't abuse it as much as you'd like to. Without it the matchup would be terrible (I still think Wario loses outright, but this may change). The good thing about this technique is that it will force peach's to play offensively or suffer obscene amounts of damage. The guy I played didn't stop playing defensively and suffered.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, it's worth noting that Peach can cancel a float instantly and double-jump -> airdodge, but that doesn't really get her away from the situation, either, I guess. Also, if her D-Air hits the Bike and not you, she's frozen for an extra five frames per hit that you can punish her for, due to the hitlag freeze. Also-also, well-placed hitboxes stop a thrown Bike, too; so if she decides to N-Air it before it gets to her, it will not hit her (though that's potentially punishable, too).

I've been meaning to make a list of characters an on-stage Bike would help significantly against. Remember that being in range means you can't Jab, F-Tilt, or D-Tilt, and other attacks have increased hitlag (making their hitboxes last longer but making the move easier to react to and punish). I need to go out of my way to test which characters have a slower Bike pick-up/throw, too.

 

[Spinosaurus]

So there's a universal shield stun change. How much does this benefit Wario, exactly?

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Remember that being in range means you can't Jab, F-Tilt, or D-Tilt, and other attacks have increased hitlag (making their hitboxes last longer but making the move easier to react to and punish).

Could you please explain what you mean by "that being in range means you can't Jab, F-Tilt, or D-Tilt?" Are you talking about hitting the bike with those move as an offensive option?

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

So there's a universal shield stun change. How much does this benefit Wario, exactly?

Sounds like canceling dairs into the ground would get us a free grab HOHOHO

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So there's a universal shield stun change. How much does this benefit Wario, exactly?

At first glance, very little. I don't know if added shieldstun also comes with added pushback, but if not, it just means dropping your shield takes a little longer. Jumping out of shield or shieldgrabbing remains as fast as before. In fact, this is a nerf for Wario D-Air, since the hits are a true blockstring now and people can't stop shielding between hits.

Could you please explain what you mean by "that being in range means you can't Jab, F-Tilt, or D-Tilt?" Are you talking about hitting the bike with those move as an offensive option?

If the Bike is on the ground, an Attack input will pick it up. Well, some of them; if you press the input for a Jab, F-Tilt, or D-Tilt, it will make you pick up the Bike instead. Smashes, Dash Attack, Grabs and U-Tilt are unaffected. Some characters dislike losing those moves a lot more than others.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I don't believe frame cancelling works on shield, but I could be wrong. Unless this is an obscene about of shield stun we're talking about, I don't think that will work. lol

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

At first glance, very little. I don't know if added shieldstun also comes with added pushback, but if not, it just means dropping your shield takes a little longer. Jumping out of shield or shieldgrabbing remains as fast as before. In fact, this is a nerf for Wario D-Air, since the hits are a true blockstring now and people can't stop shielding between hits.



If the Bike is on the ground, an Attack input will pick it up. Well, some of them; if you press the input for a Jab, F-Tilt, or D-Tilt, it will make you pick up the Bike instead. Smashes, Dash Attack, Grabs and U-Tilt are unaffected. Some characters dislike losing those moves a lot more than others.

what about falling up airs?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

what about falling up airs?

It all depends on if increased shieldstun also means increased shield pushback in the new formula. If so, those should be safer on shield, yeah.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

It all depends on if increased shieldstun also means increased shield pushback in the new formula. If so, those should be safer on shield, yeah.

You think this is good for wario? Even if not directly, it encourages aggression. Bobbing and weaving like wario does best becomes that much better when shields are worse.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I think Wario's dair will suffer from this and his other aerials will be slightly better. I'm still going to play safe.

Wario imo, has pretty bad OOS options and now characters will be able to pressure him harder resulting in this being an overall nerf by every other character benefiting more. Peach's dair to buffered nair might now be physically impossible for Wario to punish in between hits. What's is Wario's shield pressure anyway? D-tilt spam? lol chomp?

Does anyone know what the 2.56 shieldstun divisor was changed to?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Approximate formula appears to be (Damage/1.8) + 3.

This actually makes stronger attacks noticeably safer on shield, so I expect heavies to become better. Wario B-Air and U-Air would be safer on shield if the option in question is drop shield normally -> punish, but it's worth noting that shieldgrabs, rolls, and jumps OoS can all be done at any time during shieldstun, just like before.

EDIT: I was wrong about this; everyone's everything is safer on shield.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Approximate formula appears to be (Damage/1.8) + 3.

This actually makes stronger attacks noticeably safer on shield, so I expect heavies to become better. Wario B-Air and U-Air would be safer on shield if the option in question is drop shield normally -> punish, but it's worth noting that shieldgrabs, rolls, and jumps OoS can all be done at any time during shieldstun, just like before.

You can't really shield grab bair and up air. But what kind of shield pressure does wario have anyways?

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

They're literally adding 3 frames???, so an attack that does 1 percent of damage like pit's nair will also link completely together? That's really insane.

but it's worth noting that shieldgrabs, rolls, and jumps OoS can all be done at any time during shieldstun, just like before.

I didn't know you could jump out of shieldstun, but I guess that makes because that's when shield pushback occurs which I knew you could jump out of. I'm bad.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was wrong about the latter and I edited my post. Got it mixed up with some testing I did for Mac where you could cancel shield pushback but not shieldstun itself. My bad, not trying to spread misinformation.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I was wrong about the latter and I edited my post. Got it mixed up with some testing I did for Mac where you could cancel shield pushback but not shieldstun itself. My bad, not trying to spread misinformation.

So can we start talking about the applications of this on wario?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Feel free to lead off anytime instead of expecting me to do the work for you. >_>

The increased shieldstun on sweet N-Air means that opponents have five frames where they could act before the second hit, rather than the previous nine frames.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Feel free to lead off anytime instead of expecting me to do the work for you. >_>

The increased shieldstun on sweet N-Air means that opponents have five frames where they could act before the second hit, rather than the previous nine frames.

I never asked you to do the work, I just wanted to talk to someone else that uses wario on possible applications of this. But it seems like you'd rather not so I'll go to training mode or something.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Don't worry Sneak Boy Nick. I was planning on labbing this frame data for the data page.

So Reflex, I just want to clear things up, as I've looked everywhere in the past to find this info but couldn't. Shield pushback occurs during shield stun frames. You can't jump oos during shield stun but can buffer the jump OOS during those frames?

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Don't worry Sneak Boy Nick. I was planning on labbing this frame data for the data page.

So Reflex, I just want to clear things up, as I've looked everywhere in the past to find this info but couldn't. Shield pushback occurs during shield stun frames. You can't jump oos during shield stun but can buffer the jump OOS during those frames?

You wanna talk? I actually wanted to talk about relfexes previous video on throwing the bike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qONSmZqgTLQ

Imagine what we could do now with this? I'm def gonna lab this.

Down tilting someone shield seems to be pretty solid as of now as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So Reflex, I just want to clear things up, as I've looked everywhere in the past to find this info but couldn't. Shield pushback occurs during shield stun frames. You can't jump oos during shield stun but can buffer the jump OOS during those frames?

I have corrected my previous statement earlier. You can't do anything during shieldstun but buffer the next action afterward and angle your shield.