Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[Hyper]

The Wall of Bike meta is here.

 

[C4-]

just curious but has anyone messed around with combos off of the sourspot of uptilt ? also anyone know any situations where your likely to get the sourspot ? Ive foudn that if my oppenent typically does a standard get up off the ledge, uptilt does a good job of covering it since it stays out fairly long in comparison to downtilt and gives you the chance of hitting the sourspot of it being that your oppenent wont always get up off the ledge at the same speed. Sourspot uptilt can definitely be followed up by up air even at decently high percents but im not sure about anything else yet , ill need to test it more.

 

[Adrian Marin]

just curious but has anyone messed around with combos off of the sourspot of uptilt ? also anyone know any situations where your likely to get the sourspot ? Ive foudn that if my oppenent typically does a standard get up off the ledge, uptilt does a good job of covering it since it stays out fairly long in comparison to downtilt and gives you the chance of hitting the sourspot of it being that your oppenent wont always get up off the ledge at the same speed. Sourspot uptilt can definitely be followed up by up air even at decently high percents but im not sure about anything else yet , ill need to test it more.

When I land a sourspot Utilt, I often follow up with an Ftilt angled upwards. It's pretty consistent and safe. The Utilt is also decent while edgeguarding, particularly against the big and heavy characters such as Bowser. You can also do Fair spam strings, which is pretty nifty at later percents on the edge!

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I know there's a matchup thread, but could I get some tips in the Kirby matchup? I find I just take damage constantly and quickly because of how much combo potential Kirby has on Wario.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sorry, but I've never played a competent Kirby before, so I don't really feel qualified giving advice for the matchup.

On a hunch, I checked the data dump for move properties and found something that contradicts the 1.04 pastebin I've been using as a general reference for ages:

On D-Air, the air-only meteor hitbox has priority over the ground/air upward-hitting hitbox. Also, if the data dump isn't wrong in labeling, all hitboxes on the linking hits of D-Air are pretty small; D-Air just appears big because the lowest hitbox (the upward-hitting one) is reasonably disjointed. I tried to create an approximation of the hitbox using BrawlBox and the data dump (which uses similar data). The hitboxes are smaller than I would have thought:

This supports my experience of getting the meteor fairly consistently by fastfalling a D-Air through a recovering opponent. It's loads easier to land the meteor hitbox if you can still get it when both hitboxes overlap, and because Wario's fastfall speed is one of the highest in the game, people get hit downward without running into the move again. Also, because of how it hits every other frame (as well as Wario's fast fastfall speed), someone trading with a fastfalling Wario D-Air will often trade and then fly downward. This likely has a significant effect on our ability to edgeguard vertical recoveries, which is great! More research must be done.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The way that landing lag reduction via hitlag (I hate the name "frame canceling") works is that if you hit an opponent (and not the opponent's shield) on the same frame as you'd land on the ground, you start your landing lag while you're still in hitlag.

D-Air's linking hits cause five frames of hitlag freeze on each individual it. Since D-Air individual linking hitboxes hit on every other frame, doing a D-Air on a grounded opponent and landing before the final hit has a 50% chance of having +5 extra frame advantage. It would allow for better landing D-Air combos into stuff like Up-B, full Waft, maybe even U-Smash.

I don't know of any guaranteed setups for it, though. People should test buffered stuff and see if they get the extra frames, like "Fullhop buffered airdodge -> buffered D-Air," things like that.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

What are some good ways to condition my opponent as wario? What are some good wario baits?

 

[ElDood]

What are some good ways to condition my opponent as wario? What are some good wario baits?

A lot of people have trouble dealing with Wario's bite when coming back from the edge. Especially if you do a medium jump while biting, because it will catch jump recoveries, standing recoveries and attack recoveries. The only things it won't catch are some attacks when the opponent lets go of the edge (Samus's fire cannons can give you a lot of trouble with this) and, rolling recoveries.

Now here's the bait. If the opponent gets wise to the edgeguard bite, and starts to use the roll recovery (once or twice is what I usually consider "conditioned") you can tap B when they're on the edge. Most opponents will see you open your mouth as a sign that they should roll back on the stage. But, you you only tapped the button, you'll recover from the bite in time to Fsmash behind yourself, or fart. Catching people like this can very easily net you a kill, and scare your opponent so they won't know what to do while recovering, going so far as to hang on the ledge long enough that they lose their invincibility and you can knock them right off.

A couple things to remember while doing this. Don't stand at the very edge of the stage because your bite can miss, and some characters rolls go quite far so you need to give yourself a little extra distance to catch them with the FSmash. Figuring out when people are going to roll takes some experience and a little luck, but it's pretty reliable and it feels great when it works.

Anyway, that's my favorite bait. Would love to know what other Wario's do to control the minds of others.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

A lot of people have trouble dealing with Wario's bite when coming back from the edge. Especially if you do a medium jump while biting, because it will catch jump recoveries, standing recoveries and attack recoveries. The only things it won't catch are some attacks when the opponent lets go of the edge (Samus's fire cannons can give you a lot of trouble with this) and, rolling recoveries.

Now here's the bait. If the opponent gets wise to the edgeguard bite, and starts to use the roll recovery (once or twice is what I usually consider "conditioned") you can tap B when they're on the edge. Most opponents will see you open your mouth as a sign that they should roll back on the stage. But, you you only tapped the button, you'll recover from the bite in time to Fsmash behind yourself, or fart. Catching people like this can very easily net you a kill, and scare your opponent so they won't know what to do while recovering, going so far as to hang on the ledge long enough that they lose their invincibility and you can knock them right off.

A couple things to remember while doing this. Don't stand at the very edge of the stage because your bite can miss, and some characters rolls go quite far so you need to give yourself a little extra distance to catch them with the FSmash. Figuring out when people are going to roll takes some experience and a little luck, but it's pretty reliable and it feels great when it works.

Anyway, that's my favorite bait. Would love to know what other Wario's do to control the minds of others.

What's the best way to punish a roll get up? I personally prefer reverse up smash.

 

[Kaladin]

How does wario deal with big, meaty, disjoints? I just got my ass handed to me by a Lucina. It was a decent Lucina, but I didn't lose to the player so much as I lost to dancing blade and fair. How does wario deal with being totally spaced out?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario's Down-Air hits seven times, and the first six hits have two hitboxes that send opponents up and down between each other before the final hit.

If both hitboxes overlap at the same time, the downward-hitting one has priority. This often happens if you're falling while an opponent rises with an attack, and when your attack trades in such a manner, the opponent can effectively be meteored. As the linking hits have fixed knockback, the opponent's percent is irrelevant, and like all knockback-inducing attacks, the downward force is increased by Rage.

How does wario deal with big, meaty, disjoints? I just got my *** handed to me by a Lucina. It was a decent Lucina, but I didn't lose to the player so much as I lost to dancing blade and fair. How does wario deal with being totally spaced out?

Airdodge a bunch, move backward a lot. Wait for Waft and try to avoid scenarios where you could trade (which is a lot like avoiding combat whenever you can, hah).

 

[Sari]

Any tips on dealing with and ?

I have a tough time dealing with Captain Falcon in general, and using Wario doesn't seem to make it better. He's really fast and has one of the best grabs in the game (he'll even grab me if I'm using chomp). Everytime he gets close he'll either grab me or unleash a barrage of aerials.

Falco has some really great aerials and once he grabs me I'll go from 0% to 50% in a second. Landing a hit is hard since he can easily retreat and throw an attack that is hard to punish. I just got destroyed by some random Falco player on FG that knew how to use his combos while staying safe at the same time.

 

[ElDood]

Any tips on dealing with and ?

I have a tough time dealing with Captain Falcon in general, and using Wario doesn't seem to make it better. He's really fast and has one of the best grabs in the game (he'll even grab me if I'm using chomp). Everytime he gets close he'll either grab me or unleash a barrage of aerials.

Most of what I do against Falco is simply reaction and muscle memory, so I can't help much on that.

But Captain Falcon? Oh, there's a LOT Wario can do against Falcon. Falcon likes to run a lot, so simply standing still and opening your mouth will catch a lot of them and cause them to slow down out of fear. His dash attack can beat it, but if you get wise and start blocking it, you can punish with a dash attack.

Bite him by coming at him from an above angle, Falcon has some trouble punishing a bite when it's coming from the air. Make sure to fast fall when using Air Neutrals and Dairs because he'll have a hard time punishing those, even with his wheel kick.

But the single greatest advice I can give you is the edge guard. Most Falcon's like to recover from below the stage (or in many cases have to,) and Wario has a very safe and effective way of punishing those recoveries. If you dash at the edge of the stage while he's recovering, you can catch him with the sour spot of your dash and send him careening down. It also sends him slightly forward meaning even if he's expecting it (which most don't, or can't react to) he'll get caught by the lip of a stage, if it has one.

I have a video demonstrating what this looks like (Start at the 1:00 mark). The dash "spike" (for lack of a better term) works exceedingly well on Falcon, but you can use it against other characters too, particularly Ness and Lucas if they try to PK thunder back onto the edge of the stage.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I feel like I can't/don't get warios fart confirms consistently, in general I whiff my farts. What do?

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I feel like I can't/don't get warios fart confirms consistently, in general I whiff my farts. What do?

Be stone cold with your farts. Only ever try to use it if you know you can land it, or it's very likely you will land it. Such as punishing a laggy attack, the opponent is helpless, you can combo it out of nair, or your opponent is recovering.

 

[Steeler]

Finally did some research regarding landing with D-Air and what you get out of it. I learned that Rage does increase the knockback and hitstun on moves with fixed knockback (as D-Air's linking hits have), however slight. This is actually quite relevant on a landing D-Air against fastfallers; without Rage, you seem to get around +3 frame advantage on average (considering the single empty frames between linking hits). You can go for a grab attempt or read a defensive option with your own move (Speeding Bike, your own roll, etc.). Frame advantage is increased by 5 if you cancel the hitlag by hitting on the same frame a linking hitbox would come out; because it hits every other frame, this actually has a 50% chance of happening if you are hitting on multiple frames.

However, at around 100% Rage, landing D-Air seems to combo into D-Tilt and mostly-charged Waft every time, meaning the frame advantage goes up to at least +5. Given that you have at least 19 frames to confirm whether or not you hit the opponent (19 frames of landing lag from D-Air, and often more from hitlag, multihits, etc.), this seems to make D-Air a usable hit confirm to mostly-charged Waft, at least against fastfallers. It works on at least Diddy, Sheik, and Falcon. With the 50% chance of a hitlag cancel (I refuse to call it frame canceling), using D-Air into Full Waft is a gamble but doable, too.

Is there a list of which "fastfallers" this works on? I assume the only requirement is that they are low enough after dair for the follow up? I will try to research this tonight, if this info isn't out there.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't have a list. It likely works on nonfastfallers, too, but I have no idea of how much Rage is required. The problem with testing is that you get a 50% chance of getting +5 frame advantage, so you need to do something multiple times.

 

[Kaladin]

So, Tweek's aggro, non campy, approaching Wario just 3-0'd Salem (and all three of his characters). Thoughts? Could campy Wario be sub-optimal? I'm not sure what to make of this.

 

[Rakurai]

It depends on the match-up, IMO.

Trying to go aggro on characters who can space Wario out with projectiles and disjoints like Mega Man and Rosalina doesn't seem to work very well.

 

[LordFreezyPops42]

I agree with Rakurai. It's going to tough trying to go in on characters that can easily exploit our short range like that.

Plus, considering that Wario gets rewarded for basically hopping/standing around and doing nothing, it definitely would be a good idea to abuse that whenever you can.

 

[Rakurai]

Yeah...

Tweek got wrecked from trying to go aggro on Dabuz's Rosalina. When he did actually manage to get rid of Luma, he was able go in without many issues, though.

Dash attack, late nair, and back throw seem like the best anti-Luma options if you spot an opening.

 

[Spinosaurus]

So, Tweek's aggro, non campy, approaching Wario just 3-0'd Salem (and all three of his characters). Thoughts? Could campy Wario be sub-optimal? I'm not sure what to make of this.

Tweek's match against Dabuz suggests the complete opposite.

 

[Dabuz]

Tweek's style vs. me was fine, I just outplayed him because he doesn't know how to land against Rosalina.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's still loads better to camp the hell out of Rosalina, because neither character is good at approaching and Waft does a number on her.

EDIT: lol

http://gfycat.com/HonestSlipperyAnophelesmosquito

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Tweek also didn't use back air a lot. I find it's really good at taking out Luma and in general it's a meaty move that's great at spacing against Rosalina.

 

[Kaladin]

Tweek also didn't use back air a lot. I find it's really good at taking out Luma and in general it's a meaty move that's great at spacing against Rosalina.

It's an amazing move, period. Maybe my favorite ariel in the game, just because SH retreating bair is so safe and has a high reward on hit. Mix it up with some B reversed chomps, and you're in good shape.

 

[Rakurai]

EDIT: lol

http://gfycat.com/HonestSlipperyAnophelesmosquito

I can't help but wonder what would've happened if you had been able to waft him in that situation.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pretty sure he'd bounce around the walls and not go anywhere. I'll try to recreate it in the near future.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

So how does nair to fart actually work? You do it to your opponent around 35-40% and then what? You double jump at them? Jump once at them? Dash and then jump?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The closer you are to the ground when you hit with sourspot N-Air, the better your frame advantage will be. Otherwise, just jump.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

The closer you are to the ground when you hit with sourspot N-Air, the better your frame advantage will be. Otherwise, just jump.

Just jump once short hop or full jump? what's the best angle to hit my opponent with a landing nair?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fullhop makes you rise faster, I suppose. Just hit them as close to the ground as possible. They're moving somewhat outward, so moving forward couldn't hurt, I guess.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

How should I use perfect pivots or fox trot canceling/ extended fox trotting as wario?

Both his perfect pivot and fox trot go very short distances so i don't feel like they're super useful.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Don't. Run turnaround cancel instead.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Just looked up a bunch of frame data, and it appears that Wario actually has the fastest pivot grab in the entire game. That's pretty interesting honestly, although I don't know how useful that is really.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

All of his grabs have the same startup, too, so there's generally no reason not to Dash Grab or Pivot Grab over a regular grab.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

What do you guys think of Town & City for Wario? I find it's a good stage for Wario since the platforms are great for camping on and they can actually help set up juggles since they can get in the way for the opponent.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Getting kind of tired of everyone thinking their mains beat Wario. I don't think I've seen a single board that doesn't say Wario loses to them. Even Ganondorf mains think they beat us. Think about that for a second.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Thanks reflex. Just a note though, in your most recent video I found the lyrics in the music kind of distracting. I'd recommend keeping it to music without singing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It was louder than I intended it to be, but I didn't want to reupload it because my internet is awful. Either way, that's likely the plan for the future.