Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[ZeGlasses!]

Getting kind of tired of everyone thinking their mains beat Wario. I don't think I've seen a single board that doesn't say Wario loses to them. Even Ganondorf mains think they beat us. Think about that for a second.

Wario is not a common character to fight against in Smash 4, so they will often just theorize about the matchup. Problem is, they often theorize that Wario will face them head on. It's a problem with theorizing matchups as a whole, people don't realize that these matchups are against high level players that will try mindgames, that will adapt, respecting moves, etc.

This is why the Ganon boards assume they win the matchup. Ganon does actually beat Wario in direct combat since his moves have better priority and coverage. But Wario can camp him the hell out and just play bait and punish the whole time, and Ganon gets rekt because he just can't keep up.

 

[Revax]

What do you guys think of Town & City for Wario? I find it's a good stage for Wario since the platforms are great for camping on and they can actually help set up juggles since they can get in the way for the opponent.

At the last tournament I went to, I picked T&C when my opponent didn't have a n-air/u-air that could cover that platform or I figured smashville's extending platform favored their strings too much (Sheik, Sonic, Pikachu). It worked out well for me as I could shark the platforms with chomp if my opponent tried to use them and float around on them for half-waft if i didn't have it.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

It was louder than I intended it to be, but I didn't want to reupload it because my internet is awful. Either way, that's likely the plan for the future.

You mind if we discuss the applications for RTC (run turnaround cancel) on wario specifically? What would be a good approach? I was thinking about RTC down tilt

 

[Rakurai]

Getting kind of tired of everyone thinking their mains beat Wario. I don't think I've seen a single board that doesn't say Wario loses to them. Even Ganondorf mains think they beat us. Think about that for a second.

I'm just going they haven't actually fought a decent Wario player before.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Getting kind of tired of everyone thinking their mains beat Wario. I don't think I've seen a single board that doesn't say Wario loses to them. Even Ganondorf mains think they beat us. Think about that for a second.

Early MU discussions can easily boil down to "who outranges who". Goes wihout saying that a lot of people think they beat us considering we arguably have the worst reach heh

 

[ZeGlasses!]

This is why I like when people from other character boards come to the character boards of matchups they are currently discussing. It allows input from both ends and stops it from being one-sided and biased *cough*Falconboards*cough*

 

[PK Gaming]

Getting kind of tired of everyone thinking their mains beat Wario. I don't think I've seen a single board that doesn't say Wario loses to them. Even Ganondorf mains think they beat us. Think about that for a second.

Yeah it's pretty obnoxious, especially when you consider that Wario is one of the few tournament viable characters in the game. I'd attribute this to the fact that he just isn't common outside of high level play, but there's also the fact that most players just don't want to admit to losing to Wario. A fat, ugly and silly dude who farts on you to steal games. The fact that he has short range is a convenient springboard for them.

I personally die a little every time I see post "Wario struggles against Sword users, they can just perpetually keep him out" when it really doesn't work out that way in practice.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Yeah, they just outright don't know that Wario isn't just going to run head-first towards you constantly through out the match. He's gonna play patient as hell and run away, waiting for punishes. They basically assume that Wario is going to approach THEM.

Range does help beating Wario, definitely. But you have to be able to constantly keep pressuring, too. Hitting Wario out of the air a couple times might seem good, but if you can't chase him and keep pressuring him, he's just gonna reset the situation and wait for an opportunity. You can't just try to space him out either, he's just gonna sit there and get free waft charge until you approach.

 

[ElDood]

Personally, I relish it when people say that Wario is a terrible character with no chance of overcoming their mains. They're basically telling you "I have no matchup experience with your character, have not researched any vids featuring him, and will underestimate you when we play." It's basically a free win for you since you know they're not going to play smart because they think they don't have to.

Then, when you wreck them a few times, you can either feel better knowing you've enlightened another fighter to the glory of Wario, or you can sit back and mine the free salt.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I'm actually curious. If you were given the choice to buff Wario in the next patch, how would you buff him? Keep it believable, no outright move changes like reverting his fsmash(sorry).

 

[Goodstyle_4]

I'm actually curious. If you were given the choice to buff Wario in the next patch, how would you buff him? Keep it believable, no outright move changes like reverting his fsmash(sorry).

Jab attack is a 4 frame attack. That is all. Wario now has a ground game.

 

[Kaladin]

I'm actually curious. If you were given the choice to buff Wario in the next patch, how would you buff him? Keep it believable, no outright move changes like reverting his fsmash(sorry).

Make jab link properly and make it frame 3. Also, make dtilt SH half waft easier to pull off.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I'm actually curious. If you were given the choice to buff Wario in the next patch, how would you buff him? Keep it believable, no outright move changes like reverting his fsmash(sorry).

Dair auto cancel or up air having the body hitbox it had in brawl

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Add a couple of active frames to his sweetspot N-Air hitbox; the need for that much precision is unique and very frustrating, while literally every other N-Air in the game has at least two active frames on the initial hitbox.

Clean up Up-B hitboxes so that they link correctly. If you steer it far left/right or if the opponent has decent damage, the final hit never works. They likely need to reduce the knockback on the linking hits.

 

[Kaladin]

Actually, make dair hit every frame. Dair to fart (and anything else) for DAYS.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Add a couple of active frames to his sweetspot N-Air hitbox; the need for that much precision is unique and very frustrating, while literally every other N-Air in the game has at least two active frames on the initial hitbox.

Yes, PLSSS.

I'm gonna try and be more original, since you guys have said a lot of what I want.

I would adjust dthrow so that it sends at an angle that forces a tech(Kinda like Sonic's or Pacman's). It would work until 0-50%. This could help Wario set up tech-chases, which he is really damn good at.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If D-Air hit every single frame, it would be absolutely incredible for catching the ledge snap vulnerability, but it would likely also be impossible to get the D-Air meteor on a recovering opponent.

 

[Kaladin]

If D-Air hit every single frame, it would be absolutely incredible for catching the ledge snap vulnerability, but it would likely also be impossible to get the D-Air meteor on a recovering opponent.

That would be worth it imo.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Is short hop auto canceled dair not reasonable as a buff? Would that make wario too strong?

 

[Kaladin]

Is short hop auto canceled dair not reasonable as a buff? Would that make wario too strong?

It'd function a lot like Pika's, but multihit. It'd be fine.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

It'd function a lot like Pika's, but multihit. It'd be fine.

It would give wario back so many options he had in brawl. His edge game is insane already and it would make him a lot safer as a character. Sakurai please man.

 

[Roots]

Less usmash endlag

 

[ElDood]

Give him a smash, any smash, that isn't a functional death sentence if he misses or gets blocked. Seriously, I watch Mario throw out 37 smashes a minute knowing full well there's precisely diddly **** I can do about it if I block it.

 

[Kaladin]

Give him a smash, any smash, that isn't a functional death sentence if he misses or gets blocked. Seriously, I watch Mario throw out 37 smashes a minute knowing full well there's precisely diddly **** I can do about it if I block it.

Seeing as dsmash already comes out on the same frame as our "jab" (lets be honest it's a bad ftilt), why not give it the same endlag? That should make it safe-ish.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Less usmash endlag

this. Up smash is very good and our safest smash attack I wish I could just throw it out like ****ing mario.

 

[LordFreezyPops42]

If it had less end lag, maybe jump cancelled pivot upsmashes would be more of a thing for Wario.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is short hop auto canceled dair not reasonable as a buff? Would that make wario too strong?

Yes, it would be too strong. It would invalidate a lot of Wario's current moves in neutral and make him significantly less thoughtful.

Give him a smash, any smash, that isn't a functional death sentence if he misses or gets blocked. Seriously, I watch Mario throw out 37 smashes a minute knowing full well there's precisely diddly **** I can do about it if I block it.

Wario doesn't need safer Smashes, everyone else needs MORE endlag on their Smashes. Goodness forbid someone get punished for whiffing a Smash attack at close range.

 

[Darlos9D]

Wario doesn't need safer Smashes, everyone else needs MORE endlag on their Smashes. Goodness forbid someone get punished for whiffing a Smash attack at close range.

This. I was gettin REAL mad against a Yoshi for this exact reason. Can hardly even block and punish his aerials as he falls...

Fighting games need a sense of commitment on certain things.

 

[Roots]

Wario doesn't need safer Smashes, everyone else needs MORE endlag on their Smashes. Goodness forbid someone get punished for whiffing a Smash attack at close range.

Definitely
Mario's usmash is a shining example of a move you can just fish for kills with by throwing it out repeatedly, which is dumb

But the chances of them deciding every character with safe smashes should be nerfed is far more unlikely than Wario getting a single buff.
As long as Wario's smashes are near the same level as the rest of the crew, I'll be fine

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Wario is fine as a character. Nothing needs to be changed.

Random thought, but I, as of right now, believe up+B has some use offensively. I mostly use it for handling people using regular get-up (This is if the person knows how good neutral b is at covering ledge getups, and I didn't have enough time to setup a ledged bike) or if I receive pressure from behind where I am facing. I believe a fox cross-up daired me and then I waited for the up-tilt on the back of my shield and then up-b'd. I think that's its only utility. However, and I think it was a fluke, but it might stuff ike's jab combo.

 

[WwwWario]

Wario is fine as a character. Nothing needs to be changed.

Random thought, but I, as of right now, believe up+B has some use offensively. I mostly use it for handling people using regular get-up (This is if the person knows how good neutral b is at covering ledge getups, and I didn't have enough time to setup a ledged bike) or if I receive pressure from behind where I am facing. I believe a fox cross-up daired me and then I waited for the up-tilt on the back of my shield and then up-b'd. I think that's its only utility. However, and I think it was a fluke, but it might stuff ike's jab combo.

I love Wario's Up B. You know when you use Down Air, and you kind of drag them down and hit the ground before the final knockback hit lands? Well, I almost always use Up B after this and it has always landed.

 

[WwwWario]

Would be awesome if Wario had a meteor, by the way. What if he could do like Ryu with his Dair; pressing it lightly will actiavte a Ground Pound that works like PM (very strong, very risky, meteor) or hold it to perform his current Dair?

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

If you have enough a frame advantage to up-b after dair, you might as well grab->pummel->up/down-throw, also frame-cancelled dair up-b might not work on some heavy fast-fallers (not quite sure which factor influences the hitstun in this case). The reason I use up-b to handle shield pressure instead of grab in a few cases is b/c I like the animation, it's a tad bit faster and I always like to use the fastest option especially if I don't know how safe on shield something is, if I miss i grab ledge when falling and I consider myself smart at the ledge, and finally up-b sends them at a mildly bad position and up-B should virtually "cancel" on the top platforms at delfino and battlefield afaik.

 

[Kaladin]

I really suck at Wario. Or just this game in general. How does wario play neutral against characters like Marcina? I beat this marcina player at one of my locals with my day 1 greninja handily... But I can't get a stock off with wario. Seriously, what the hell are you supposed to do?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Get them off their feet with Dash Attack. Punish swings with F-Air/B-Air. Don't approach if you can help it. Airdodge, roll around, and wait. Go in when they're above the ground.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Marth and Lucina are matchups I used to struggle against, too. Disjoints in general are a hurdle a lot of aspiring Wario mains have to overcome. But once you do overcome it, it feels good to absolutely crap on Marcina.

As Reflex said, play safe. Don't approach. Get them into the air if you can and wait for them to use an aerial, then punish them. Once you get a good lead, camp the jerk out and force him to approach and commit to something. If he decides to just keep distance, it's free waft for you.

 

[Kaladin]

How do you punish spaced autocancel fair/nair on anything other than shield?

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Not only do I camp, but I actually go as far as to tell them that I'm getting a free waft, because I feel the best advantage you can have is an opponent approaching you compared to no one doing anything. Run turn around F-tilt works ok in the matchup and it clanks with their swords. In melee Marth weakness is landing since he has few landing options and since warios upair and uptilt are disjointed they can work well as antiair. Playing wario on ground and Marth in air is very situational obv and so neutral should be played like reflex said. If you didnt know, the inner hitboxes of Marths sword take priority over the tipper hitboxes, so dash attack and MAYBE d-tilt (I don't quite understand the hurtboxes on wario for that animation or how'd they'd interact with Marths hitboxes) are your somewhat safe approaches because the cover so much horizontal space so quickly.

 

[Spinosaurus]

How do you punish spaced autocancel fair/nair on anything other than shield?

Why are you trying to punish that to begin with? Only do it if you find the opportunity. You're building waft anyway.

You want to be as passive as possible with Wario.

 

[Dynomite]

Keep in mind you cant punish everything. If they are retreating with an airial, respect it. One option is to just slightly move forward to where if they keep doing it, they will run out of stage as they consistantly pull back. Eventually they will lose stage control and likely do something risky or punishable. Just dont get hit.