Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Is using up air as a combo move against on the ground opponents worth it?

It's hitbox is really hard to get against smaller characters or opponents throwing out hitboxes.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is using up air as a combo move against on the ground opponents worth it?

It's hitbox is really hard to get against smaller characters or opponents throwing out hitboxes.

Yes; it does loads of damage (combos into itself until high percents) and is safe on shield if you're not moving toward the opponent when you use it.

 

[shoff]

Not sure if you guys use it, but after a bite, many times you are able to follow up with the bike and land on them after popping a wheelie. Kinda works in many situations when you know they will roll or try to tech.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If they hold Up, they can always jump before they hit the ground, and if they tech the ground, the Bike is pretty ineffective, in my experience.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I'm sure this has probably been discussed many times, but just b/c I'm not quite sure it has, I'll mention it.

I've noticed myself and Abandango getting a second hit with the bike after the initial hit by lifting the bike up/strating a wheelie either immediately before,during or after (I think after) the first hit connects. It might only be with poor DI.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No, this is something you should be doing almost every time you hit someone with the Bike. Tacking on an extra 8% and giving them another hitbox to deal with at will is great.

You can pretty much do this on reaction until it kills the opponent.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Yes; it does loads of damage (combos into itself until high percents) and is safe on shield if you're not moving toward the opponent when you use it.

I just feel like they can throw out a hitbox to beat it out because it has very poor range. Would you happen to have a picture detailing the hitboxes.

What would be the ideal situation to go for a landing up air? Do I short hop it?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's the hands, which grow and don't have a hurtbox; I don't think it has a poor hitbox at all. Wario has loads of moves that lose if someone else happens to have a hitbox out already.

If you want to hit a grounded opponent with it, you have to be falling to the ground except for very specific cases. Otherwise, use it in juggles, mixed in with N-Air (which hits people who don't airdodge with the sweetspot and people who airdodge with the sourspot) and general airdodge reads (Waft, any aerial).

I made this a while back.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I found that running off platforms on a stage like battlefield (Miiverse) and fast fall up-airing is really nice. Usually you fall too quickly for someone to up-smash you on reaction.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

What throw should I be using when I am still trying to build up damage? Dthrow or Uthrow?

I generally prefer using dthrow, but I see high level Warios such as Reflex use uthrow a lot.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

U-Throw gives you greater opportunities to do significant damage, and it does more damage than D-Throw by itself, but the reasoning is largely dependent on how difficult your opponent can get out of that disadvantaged state. Sheik or ZSS can just Down-B to get back to neutral, after all.

 

[Sari]

Which comes out quicker, d-smash or f-tilt? I've been using d-smash a lot though I'm not sure if f-tilt would be better.

 

[Rakurai]

Down smash is quite a bit faster, but significantly weaker.

 

[Adrian Marin]

I normally find myself using Ftilt for spacing, so you should try that out against rushdown chars and others.



This won't work consistently, but you can throw opponents into bouncing bikes to deal a very large amount of damage.

Furthermore, you'll find that Wario's bike is excellent for edgeguarding. There are many ways to limit the opponent's options considerably. Followups can deal a lot of damage. I know one combo that does over 60%; however, I'm not sure if it's a true combo or not, but my opponents all seem to be unable to escape it. To set it up, you first need to throw your bike upwards near the ledge as the opposition is holding the ledge. Afterwards, you'll need to roll backwards and bait the ledge roll recovery. Once the opponent recovers with a roll, use your D tilt repeatedly (about 4 times,) then end it with a waft, Usmash or Fsmash. I believe this little trick is worth sharing, because I've destroyed stocks at very low percents with this combo. Since I lack a capture card, I'd like some help in getting this on Youtube. All you'll need to do is add me in the Wii U, I'll share the replay that showcases the combo with anyone that wishes to record it

Finally got a GIF from one of my tournament matches showcasing little trick:

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I'm having issues with my spacing short hop aerials and then people running straight under them and upsmashing me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Shorthop airdodge more, and do more empty shorthops. Maybe Neutral-B from time to time.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Shorthop airdodge more, and do more empty shorthops. Maybe Neutral-B from time to time.

I feel like my spacing is perfect and he just runs straight under me because his character is so god damn short.


What advantages does short hop air dodging do in neutral ?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You must be spacing with the wrong option if your attack doesn't even threaten to hit them.

Shorthop airdodge prevents people from attacking you when they predict an aerial. It conditions them not to press their own buttons.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

You must be spacing with the wrong option if your attack doesn't even threaten to hit them.

Shorthop airdodge prevents people from attacking you when they predict an aerial. It conditions them not to press their own buttons.

Greninja runs so low to the ground he can just run under my aerials. Bair mostly but forward air as well for spacing.

So because my opponent doesn't see me throw out an aerial they won't go in? Is it that my spacing is predictable?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Greninja runs so low to the ground he can just run under my aerials. Bair mostly but forward air as well for spacing.

So because my opponent doesn't see me throw out an aerial they won't go in? Is it that my spacing is predictable?

Spacing is more than just keeping an attack out at a certain range. It's being flexible and unpredictable. If you're doing a rising aerial every time, he knows that you will be vulnerable as you come down every single time you jump.

Sometimes a late aerial or Neutral-B is just as useful, or an empty jump -> D-Tilt or Dash Attack.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Spacing is more than just keeping an attack out at a certain range. It's being flexible and unpredictable. If you're doing a rising aerial every time, he knows that you will be vulnerable as you come down every single time you jump.

Sometimes a late aerial or Neutral-B is just as useful, or an empty jump -> D-Tilt or Dash Attack.

Up at all hours of the night giving me advice. God damn batman is what you are.

I have many more questions.

What's the most optimal way to punish a jump get up?

Is wario the type of character that I can play with an aggressive playstyle?

Dealing with projectiles seems difficult sometimes. Even bad ones like falcos lasers I feel forced to approach.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What's the most optimal way to punish a jump get up?

Is wario the type of character that I can play with an aggressive playstyle?

Dealing with projectiles seems difficult sometimes. Even bad ones like falcos lasers I feel forced to approach.

I assume you mean a Ledge Jump. "Optimal" can mean multiple things, but I would say "most reliably in a significant way" is the best direction to take. I often do a shorthop D-Air and pull in one direction a lot if you see that you missed. The lingering hitbox helps you catch different timings, it can deal good damage, has good KO potential, and it's easy to get back to neutral if you miss for whatever reason.

I suppose you can play whatever character you want aggressively, but I don't think he moves quickly enough or has big/safe enough hitboxes for it to be a reliable strategy against a lot of the best characters. You're also actively mitigating one of Wario's unique strengths in Waft (even if nothing is happening, you are benefitting from that moment) if you play aggressively; unless Waft is full, you have no reason to move toward your opponent in a significant way. You do you, but I'd call it suboptimal, and would suggest you play a different character if that's what you want when you play.

In most cases, you have foolproof ways of dealing with it. Many projectiles get eaten by the Bike if you use it on the ground, and ditching the Bike immediately puts you in the air until it rolls off. Shorthop airdodges, good spotdodge timing, and your great horizontal aerial mobility do a lot to allow you to avoid projectile better than most characters, and if they're not doing much damage to you in that case, you're charging Waft. Most characters are kind of forced to come to you in that respect.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Finally did some research regarding landing with D-Air and what you get out of it. I learned that Rage does increase the knockback and hitstun on moves with fixed knockback (as D-Air's linking hits have), however slight. This is actually quite relevant on a landing D-Air against fastfallers; without Rage, you seem to get around +3 frame advantage on average (considering the single empty frames between linking hits). You can go for a grab attempt or read a defensive option with your own move (Speeding Bike, your own roll, etc.). Frame advantage is increased by 5 if you cancel the hitlag by hitting on the same frame a linking hitbox would come out; because it hits every other frame, this actually has a 50% chance of happening if you are hitting on multiple frames.

However, at around 100% Rage, landing D-Air seems to combo into D-Tilt and mostly-charged Waft every time, meaning the frame advantage goes up to at least +5. Given that you have at least 19 frames to confirm whether or not you hit the opponent (19 frames of landing lag from D-Air, and often more from hitlag, multihits, etc.), this seems to make D-Air a usable hit confirm to mostly-charged Waft, at least against fastfallers. It works on at least Diddy, Sheik, and Falcon. With the 50% chance of a hitlag cancel (I refuse to call it frame canceling), using D-Air into Full Waft is a gamble but doable, too.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I assume you mean a Ledge Jump. "Optimal" can mean multiple things, but I would say "most reliably in a significant way" is the best direction to take. I often do a shorthop D-Air and pull in one direction a lot if you see that you missed. The lingering hitbox helps you catch different timings, it can deal good damage, has good KO potential, and it's easy to get back to neutral if you miss for whatever reason.

I suppose you can play whatever character you want aggressively, but I don't think he moves quickly enough or has big/safe enough hitboxes for it to be a reliable strategy against a lot of the best characters. You're also actively mitigating one of Wario's unique strengths in Waft (even if nothing is happening, you are benefitting from that moment) if you play aggressively; unless Waft is full, you have no reason to move toward your opponent in a significant way. You do you, but I'd call it suboptimal, and would suggest you play a different character if that's what you want when you play.

In most cases, you have foolproof ways of dealing with it. Many projectiles get eaten by the Bike if you use it on the ground, and ditching the Bike immediately puts you in the air until it rolls off. Shorthop airdodges, good spotdodge timing, and your great horizontal aerial mobility do a lot to allow you to avoid projectile better than most characters, and if they're not doing much damage to you in that case, you're charging Waft. Most characters are kind of forced to come to you in that respect.

I just have to be more patient. Sometimes I get flustered or frustrated because I wanna go in. I eat a string and start losing hope. I miss a punish or fall for the same trick twice and get mad at myself, etcetera etcetera. My mental game sucks, which I feel is extremely important for using any character. But even more important for using wario as you have to be extremely patient.

I'm not sure if this question is really a good question to be asking here, but how do I up my mental game? I feel my dominantly negative outlook is a major issue as well.

 

[XOSugar]

DISCLAIMER: This report assumes the player knows very little about Wario, so there are some techs in here that are common knowledge. I do, however, believe I've found some new things.

BIKE TRICKS
-Jump, special attacks, and melee attacks cause Wario to jump off his bike. This includes all direction B-moves, and all direction aerials including the c-stick. For instance, you can side-b, then hit the c-stick right twice to jump off and f-air. The same effect can be achieved by hitting B twice, hitting B then Up-B, two up-airs, (by this I mean leaping off the bike by hitting the c-stick up, then up-air. It's just a lazy way to do it) literally anything. This allows Wario to cover the horizontal game with his bike, and the vertical game with his aerials.

-One thing you can do is leap off the bike, and hold B. Wario will fall in a straight vertical line, and you can catch opponents recovering to the stage if you time it correctly. If not, it's extremely forgiving. (Note: I find that the easiest way to catch an opponent off stage with the neutral B it to be slightly lower than them, and jumping into it. It catches them almost instantly, and can be a suicide kill if your opponent has bad recovery or if you're both far enough off stage. In some cases, you'll even manage to get back on stage with the bike and the extra jump for extra lulz.)

-Offstage, jumping off Wario's bike gives him an extra jump, meaning you can double jump off stage, bike back to stage, and receive a third jump. One possibility this creates (of several) is the ability to jump off stage, f-air, jump, n-air, bike back to stage, and recover. He can linger off stage for a stupid period of time due to his recovery. F-air and n-air in the combo listed above can both be substituted with any aerial, an air dodge, a special move, ANYTHING. Be creative. And if you're extra ******** and somehow screw up your recovery, any decently charged fart will save your stock as a last ditch effort.

-You can chase kills far off stage by driving off and hitting your opponent with it. If you jump off at the last second and use your two jumps, you can bike back and jump back to stage. As long as your bike leaves the boundary of the stage, you will get a second one.

-You can go under the stage to the other side with the bike. In this case, you don't get the bike back until you get back onstage, meaning you can't just keep biking from side to side.

 

[ElDood]

What's the most optimal way to punish a jump get up?

Personally, I view the bite as the be all- end all edge guard move, and if you jump and fall with the bite, you can catch ledge jumping opponents pretty easy. The reason I like it more than Dair, as mentioned above, is if they try and just stand on the ledge, or do an attack recovery, you WILL catch them too. So with the exception of rolling or releasing the ledge to attack (which the jump bite can still catch some moves) it's free damage.

If you're smart and willing to read them, take note on if they start to roll to get past your jump bite. When you see them doing this more consistently (once or twice is enough) it's really easy to bait characters by doing a jump bite that you release immediately. When you open your mouth, the opponent will usually start to roll, but if you quickly release B, you'll beat them to the ground with enough time to hit them with an Fsmash. Just make sure you're not *too* close to the edge, because your range may be too short to hit wide rolling characters. But not only does this scare your opponent, Wario's Fsmash is so powerful, you're almost guaranteed a kill.

A fart can replace an f-smash, of course, if you want.

 

[Boost4u]

Personally, I view the bite as the be all- end all edge guard move, and if you jump and fall with the bite, you can catch ledge jumping opponents pretty easy. The reason I like it more than Dair, as mentioned above, is if they try and just stand on the ledge, or do an attack recovery, you WILL catch them too. So with the exception of rolling or releasing the ledge to attack (which the jump bite can still catch some moves) it's free damage.

If you're smart and willing to read them, take note on if they start to roll to get past your jump bite. When you see them doing this more consistently (once or twice is enough) it's really easy to bait characters by doing a jump bite that you release immediately. When you open your mouth, the opponent will usually start to roll, but if you quickly release B, you'll beat them to the ground with enough time to hit them with an Fsmash. Just make sure you're not *too* close to the edge, because your range may be too short to hit wide rolling characters. But not only does this scare your opponent, Wario's Fsmash is so powerful, you're almost guaranteed a kill.

A fart can replace an f-smash, of course, if you want.

I agree with this. Racking up damage like this is kinda funny. Another thing to add is while I do perform forward smashes when I read their roll, you can still go for a ftilt if you held on to your chomp too long. Another thing you could try is to pop up that shield when you anticipate a ledge hop aerial. You can then punish accordingly with a chomp, dash attack, or if they go back to the ledge, dsmash.

 

[Hyper]

Can we have the OP or a new thread dedicated to Reflex's charts? I feel like they'll be lost eventually in more-coming pages.

Also does the Nair chart apply to sour-spot Nair to Waft as well Reflex?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll likely compile the lists somewhere soon.

My N-Air notes really only focus on sweetspot N-Air. The general rule of thumb for comboing with sourspot N-Air is "the lower the opponent's percent, the better your chances of following up."

 

[Sari]

Ike has been giving me a lot of trouble with Wario recently. His f-air (which just about every Ike uses constantly) is tough to punish since it's fairly quick, has great range, and he can easily retreat. Ike's jab and d-tilt makes it even more difficult to approach since they're also pretty quick and the latter can KO surprisingly early. If his jab fails Ike can quickly follow up with a grab which can lead to numerous aerial attacks.

 

[Adrian Marin]

In my experience, Wario is forced to shield A LOT against high range characters such as Ike and Shulk. Timed perfect shields can also lead to good punishes. Wario should definitely camp against these sword chars and the like. The MU becomes considerably better with defensive play.

I also recently discovered an advanced technique that allows Wario to turn in midair without lag; however, it's only possible to do it after aerials (including air dodge), provided that Wario can't summon the bike yet. To use this AT, use an aerial and then quickly buffer side B towards the opposite direction. You'll notice Wario suddenly turning to the opposite direction in midair after you use the aerial! I've been using it seldomly for bike mindgames and for getting past foes that attempt to air dodge a Fair by following up with another fair through this turn around tech (the landing lag makes this trick very useful.)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I also recently discovered an advanced technique that allows Wario to turn in midair without lag; however, it's only possible to do it after aerials (including air dodge), provided that Wario can't summon the bike yet. To use the AT, use an aerial and then quickly use side B to the opposite side right after. You'll notice Wario suddenly turning to the opposite side in midair after you use the aerial! I've been using it seldomly for bike mindgames and for getting past foes that attempt to air dodge a Fair by following up with another fair through this turn around tech (the landing lag makes this trick very useful.)

I made this video about it a little while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjh2GOKdB40

 

[Adrian Marin]

I made this video about it a little while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjh2GOKdB40

I actually accidentally found out this tech after watching that vid! It's different because the looking around animation basically isn't even visible and has 0 lag after an aerial. Your vids are great, I don't even know how you discover all this stuff!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do you buffer the Forward-B? Can you do it at any height/fall speed?

 

[Adrian Marin]

Do you buffer the Forward-B? Can you do it at any height/fall speed?

Yes, you actually have to buffer the forward B and you can do it at any height/fall speed.

 

[Katzwinkel]

I'm sure this has been discussed in this thread already, but what are some good ways of setting up the kill with Wario? I feel like that's the one thing I struggle with the most when I use him. Going for hard reads with F-Smash or F-Tilt are by no means guaranteed. Any tips would be appreciated. I know Wario can kill decently early, but his kill moves are tricky.

EDIT: In hindsight, I should have asked this in the Q&A thread. Sorry about that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

According to the frame data on the Kurogane Hammer website, Corkscrew's linking hits have no gap between them where no hitbox is available. Also, the linking hits have fixed knockback with significant weight-dependent knockback.

In my experience, it seems that when we have significant Rage values (talking 100+%, I don't have exact numbers), if we hit people on the way up to the ledge so that the final hit doesn't come out, they're stunned for a significant amount of time, to the point where if we grab the ledge and ledge hop as soon as possible, we still have frame advantage. Whether or not we can true combo remains to be seen, but I know I've done Up-B -> ledge snap -> ledge hop aerials before. This may be useful for catching the ledge snap vulnerability frame reliably.

As an aside, if you Neutral-B someone off the ledge on Dream Land, if they mash out reasonably quickly, they'll get stage spiked by the bottom of the "pineapple."

 

[Waroh]

Nothing really great here, but thought I'd share anyway; Every way that Wario can toss and regrab the bike before it lands. Preventing the bike from taking any damage from bounces.

The direction that Wario is aiming when he tosses matters. I've never been able to regrab a right-aiming neutral toss without it going slightly over the ledge first.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I never really thought about catching a soft forward throw before it lands. That's smart and likely useful!

Come to think of it, no luck with a hard downward throw?

 

[Waroh]

I never really thought about catching a soft forward throw before it lands. That's smart and likely useful!

Come to think of it, no luck with a hard downward throw?

A few times, I've seen Wario enter the lifting animation after attempting to grab a strong down throw when aiming right. Never got him to actually pick it up, though. You can feel free to try!

You can, however, grab a right-aiming strong down throw after the second bounce, but it doesn't take anymore bounce damage at that point anyway. Still might be useful. I didn't showcase it because I was using speeding bike in that video, haha.

Edit: If it goes slightly over the ledge you can definitely regrab it after the initial bounce.