Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

Waroh

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Do you have to be in a certain position or distance from Robin? I tried it in Training Mode a few times and just got hit.
Yeah, it has to be a certain position for sure. I've also eaten the explosive moves such as Din's Fire and PK Flash by chomping right on the edge of it's hitbox. Pacman's grounded hydrant seems to act pretty similar to those, as well.
 
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Spinosaurus

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Probably be better to shield than risk getting hit if it's that specific then. Not like you'll get anything out of eating it.

I've only ever managed to eat Pac's hydrant once whenever I tried going for it lol
 

ZeGlasses!

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I've been maining Wario since the 3DS days, and even today I have been trying to consistently play him at a high level, and have placed well with him in tournaments.

Even so, is it just me, or is Nair almost useless now? I generally only really use it defensively, as the hitbox is the length of an inchworm's ****. Am I just using it wrong?
 

Sari

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Even so, is it just me, or is Nair almost useless now? I generally only really use it defensively, as the hitbox is the length of an inchworm's ****. Am I just using it wrong?
There's a small hitbox at the end of the animation near Wario's belly. If you hit them with it, they'll go into the air and you can easily follow up with just about any other aerial attack (unless their percent is really high). At low percentages you can even land a waft if timed right.
 

Spinosaurus

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NAir is a pretty good OoS that leads to potential follow ups for great damage. Also the sourspot frames of the move is good for catching rolls, Abadango does that a lot.
 

ZeGlasses!

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I still find that there are better OoS options, and it's combo potential is very limited as it only works around the 20-40% range.

What matchups with the mid to high tiers do you think Wario has a favorable matchup in? Just want to see everywario's opinions.

I know that there is a matchup thread, but because there is an overall lack of Wario mains, not much discussion happens and it ends up taking forever.
 
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Spinosaurus

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I feel like with the recent nerfs we can definitely handle Sonic. I don't wanna say downright beat, but yeah.

Also what better OoS options does Wario have?
 
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Rakurai

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A half charged Waft or fully charged Quick Waft seem like the only other viable options.

It's kind of hilarious that the frame 3 super armor on the latter is quick enough to stuff most jab combos if you drop shield and use the moment the second hit of a three hit combo connects.
 

Sari

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So are there any real uses for Wario's up B customs? I've seen lots of talks over his other customs but not his up B ones.
 

Spinosaurus

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So are there any real uses for Wario's up B customs? I've seen lots of talks over his other customs but not his up B ones.
I guess you could use Corkscrew Leap if you want to go really deep with your edgeguards or a safety measure in case you lose your bike. Widescrew is weird. I keep going back and forth with it.

I think default is the best by far though. :x
 

Rakurai

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I don't feel like the extra range on leap warrants the loss of the hitbox on the standard Corkscrew that makes it surprisingly safe.
 
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Spinosaurus

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Is it possible to combo a bike hit into wheelie slam at reasonably high percents with regular bike? There's been occassions where I saw it and I did it yesterday but I'm not sure if it's a true combo per se.

I imagine if it is then it's pretty precise and strict to get but I'm wondering if we could make it an option that we could use in a match to close a stock. I DEFINITELY want wheelie kills to become a thing. :p

I'll show an example but I'm typing this in a hurry rn. I know Abadango did it in a video.
 

Waroh

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I would love to see that. Right now the only wheelie slams I ever land are offstage ones if the opponent recovers very predictably. :laugh:
 

Spinosaurus

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I would love to see that. Right now the only wheelie slams I ever land are offstage ones if the opponent recovers very predictably. :laugh:
Yeah I made a quick vid of it
https://youtu.be/mNOdX6vtasU

Its actually pretty easy to get (just make sure you can slam the wheelie down before dropping off the ledge, so the position of the initial hit is important) but it's escapable. Not sure if it's a practical and safe set up or not, but hey, it works on Sheik at 70% and kills her on the spot at that range for what it's worth.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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It's a true combo at specific percents on specific characters with specific DI (and not the kind that is intuitive). Basically not gonna happen in a real match. The wheelie slam doesn't hit on the way down, either, so you can't hit someone on a platform with it, unfortunately.

That said, post-wheelie slam, you're not terribly punishable. In fact, if you hit with the front of the Bike (as in, the hit is well-spaced), the pushback is significant enough where you can't get shieldgrabbed before you're able to do a Bike turnaround or another Wheelie to create more hitboxes. :p
 

TheReflexWonder

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When you're in a wheelie state, the only characters that can shieldgrab you are Bowser, Captain Falcon, Charizard, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Ike, Lucario, Lucina, Marth, Mewtwo, Palutena, Peach, Pit, Robin, Rosalina, and Wii Fit Trainer.

However, if you run into a shield at full speed with the Bike, hesitate for a few frames after the hitlag, then start a wheelie (as compared to getting those hitboxes as close as possible), you'll end up behind the opponent before they can shieldgrab you, and if they try to shieldgrab immediately, they'll just get hit by the wheelie.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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I guess not, though there's a decent bit of endlag so they can try to edgeguard you on a miss immediately afterward.

I would tell you to try to hit them before they get so close to the ledge or to use it for ledgeguarding instead (which Wario is exceptionally good at).
 

Labernash

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I just ledge crashed a bike and full charge wafted offstage for and edge guard. The bike gave me an extended hitbox so it hit pikachu through his up b.

Pretty interesting how easy it was to input all of that for how effective it was.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Some in-depth information on Down-Tilt:

D-Tilt doesn't have fixed knockback, so its frame advantage is affected by Rage and the victim's percents. Higher knockback pushes people away further (duh), but because its knockback is so small until you get to 150+%, it doesn't put people into tumble, which means it cannot be DI'd.

On shield, D-Tilt gives -11 frame advantage, but your hand is not a grabbable hurtbox, so we're working with something like Meta Knight/Pikachu D-Tilt in terms of general safety here, as it takes seven frames to drop a shield normally. You're vulnerable to some Up-Bs out of shield if not well-spaced, though, because your hand is still hittable.

Wario's D-Tilt has two hitboxes: One at the glove that sends opponents at a 46-degree angle and one at the finger that sends opponents at a 67-degree angle. Same power and knockback, but the glove hitbox has priority over the finger one. The following numbers all assume 0% Rage with a fresh D-Tilt with the close hitbox. and they're pretty dependent on weight and fall speed (fall speed can sometimes mean we don't get the couple frames of landing lag to exploit). Generally speaking, the lower those are, the better frame advantage we have.

At +5, D-Tilt -> D-Tilt, D-Tilt -> Dash Attack, and D-Tilt into Half Waft are true combos. The last one has to be right on top of the opponent or a run turnaround D-Tilt.

At +8, D-Tilt -> Jab, D-Tilt -> Dash Grab, and D-Tilt -> D-Smash are true combos. The last one has to be right on top of the opponent or a run turnaround D-Tilt.

Some characters who are hit by D-Tilt can buffer a command before they touch the ground. Because you can only buffer one command at a time, and buffer priority is Special > Shield > Attack > Jump, opponents attempting to Shield, Grab, or Roll will buffer an airdodge, giving you 20 more frames of vulnerability than normal (compared to the two extra from landing lag). Have you ever landed D-Tilt -> F-Smash before? It's likely because of this. Only a handful of characters have this property at any range, but many more have it from a D-Tilt that hits at the tip. Here's a list that shows what characters it works on:

Any range: Jigglypuff, Kirby, Olimar, Peach, Rosalina

Tip only: Bowser Jr. (100+%), Dark Pit, Donkey Kong (very specific distance; not recommended), Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Lucario, Lucina, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Mewtwo, Mii Gunner (small), Mr. Game and Watch, Ness, Pac-Man, Pit, Robin (65+%), Samus, Shulk (non-Jump), Sonic (75+%), Toon Link, Villager, Wario (95+%), Wii Fit Trainer (54+%), Yoshi, Zelda

Doesn't work: Bowser, Captain Falcon, Charizard, Diddy Kong, Falco, Fox, Ganondorf, Greninja, Ike, King Dedede, Link, Mega Man, Meta Knight, Mii Swordsman (small), Palutena, Pikachu, R.O.B., Sheik, Shulk (Jump), Zero Suit Samus
Yellow numbers denote 50% Rage, Orange numbers signify 100% Rage, and Red numbers represent 150% Rage.

Character +5 Frame Advantage +8 Frame Advantage Can buffer up close? Can buffer at tip?
Mario 48%, 44%, 33%, 23% 88% No Yes
Luigi 29%, 26%, 16%, 8% 65% No Yes
Peach 20% 53% Yes Yes
Bowser 60% 110% No No
Yoshi 39%, 35%, 24%, 15% 79% No Yes
Rosalina and Luma 9%, 6%, 0%, 0% 38% Yes Yes
Bowser Jr. 60% 101% No Yes at 100+%
Wario 59% 100% No Yes at 95+%
Donkey Kong 37% 82% No No
Diddy Kong 59%, 53%, 43%, 32% 93% No No
Mr. Game and Watch 33% 67% No Yes
Little Mac 35% 70% No Yes
Link 50% 94% No No
Zelda 22% 55% No Yes
Sheik 54%, 51%, 41%, 30% 88% No No
Ganondorf 65% 102% No No
Toon Link 36% 66% No Yes
Samus 32% 71% No Yes
Zero Suit Samus 55%, 50%, 39%, 30% 87% No No
Pit 26% 65% No Yes
Palutena 58% 92% No No
Marth 29% 64% No Yes
Ike 59% 100% No No
Robin 51% 92% No Yes at 65+%
Duck Hunt 31% 66% No Yes
Kirby 12% 41% Yes Yes
King Dedede 26% 71% No No
Meta Knight 54% 86% No No
Fox 54% 86% No No
Falco 55% 87% No No
Pikachu 54%, 49%, 39%, 29% 86% No No
Charizard 66% 104% No No
Lucario 44% 84% No Yes
Jigglypuff 0%, 0%, 0%, 0% 22% Yes Yes
Greninja 59% 93% No No
R.O.B. 56% 99% No No
Ness 33%, 29%, 19%, 10% 69% No Yes
Captain Falcon 62%, 57%, 45%, 34% 98% No No
Villager 35% 72% No Yes
Olimar/Alph 17% 49% Yes Yes
Wii Fit Trainer 53% 91% No Yes at 54+%
Shulk (non-Jump) 47% 87% No Yes
Shulk (Jump) 61% 97% No No
Dr. Mario 48% 88% No Yes
Dark Pit 26% 65% No Yes
Lucina 29% 64% No Yes
Pac-Man 25% 60% No Yes
Mega Man 61% 94% No No
Sonic 52%, 48%, 37%, 26% 93% No Yes at 75+%
Mewtwo 24% 58% No Yes
Mii Gunner (small) 36% 77% No Yes
Mii Swordsman (small) 48% 92% No No
Mii Brawler (small)
 
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TheReflexWonder

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That's just frame advantage. The chart shows the minimum percent (before the hit) to get at least that much frame advantage on hit.

Hitting with the finger gives you very slightly better frame advantage than hitting with your glove (45% vs. ~42%, perhaps), but since the glove hitbox has priority, the opponent should be moving around, and you generally won't have enough time to react to which hitbox you landed, all of my numbers are for the glove hitbox.

It's pretty negligible, and there's no percent where hitting with the finger will give you less frame advantage than hitting with the glove, so all that really means is that if you combo D-Tilt -> D-Tilt, the second hit will always be the finger hitbox, and even though it's a little stale (since you just did two D-Tilts in quick succession), you'll have the same frame advantage as the first hit had.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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Wario's jumpsquat is Frame 5, and F-Air is Frame 5, so I suppose it would combo from D-Tilt at very high percents, but I don't see why you'd want to do that when it combos into Dash Grab and Dash Attack at lower percents.

Jab is kind of terrible regardless, and I wouldn't recommend using it to follow up D-Tilt under any circumstance.
 

GanonDuck

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Ah, of course. I havnt really incorporated dtilt into my game yet, so far ive mostly used dtilt > grab or dtilt > ftilt, or dtilt > try to read their movement if they are very roll happy when they get hit by anything.

Dtilt > Ftilt works suprisingly well against most people, tho i guess in theory there are better options.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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D-Tilt -> F-Tilt will not combo at any reasonable percent, but if they choose to drop their shield at just the wrong (right?) time, F-Tilt will hit. Otherwise it generally gets powershielded.
 

Waroh

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Not very useful, but also hilarious at the same time... I've taken a few stocks by eating an explosive item. Like say when you grab Link's bomb, you can throw it in front of you and eat it while moving towards him. Or you can catch Bowser Jr if they're dangerously close their own Mecha Koopa running about.

The self-explosion is surprisingly powerful, has a few invincibility frames (from what I've tested). But honestly, only do it for the sake disrespect! :laugh:
 

TheReflexWonder

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In Brawl, the "eat explosive" animation is completely invincible from Frames 1-19, and it hits on Frame 19. (EDIT: Just tested; this appears to still be the case.)

In Brawl, I used to do it to gimp Toon Links who throw bombs up from the ledge to cover themselves, heh.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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Apparently, if you jump off the Bike on the ground after doing a Wheelie, it doesn't have the normal driving hitbox as you jump off or the 3% "rolling" hitbox after you dismount. Pretty negligible situation, as after you Wheelie you should be behind your opponent, but, something I noticed while messing around five minutes ago. If you turn the Bike around after a Wheelie, those hitboxes come back if you dismount afterward.

Also, if you press/hold Up as the front of your Bike overlaps ground (either via the edge of the stage or going through any platform, any jumping momentum you have will be canceled and you'll immediately go into a Wheelie, getting the second Wheelie hitbox as if you did a Wheelie normally. This can be used for platform pressure or to move safely/with trickery around something like the Smashville platform, as the Wheelie positioning

Also-also, being in the air with the Bike gives it a hitbox, no matter the speed. If you ride the Bike on the ground toward the edge at any speed and don't press Forward as you get to the edge, the Bike will slow to a crawl and tilt downward just before it goes over the edge. This seems to be a perfect position to cover the ledge with a disjointed hitbox to catch the ledge snap vulnerability. It only does 1-2% damage so it doesn't send them far, but that might be enough to disrupt and pressure them for a potential follow-up afterward...

Also-also-also, the game seems to do the "is this an aerial Bike?" check on the first frame of the Forward-B animation, so if you run to the edge, press Forward-B, and slide off the stage before the mounting animation is finished, though you still get the aerial hop and everything, you can pull another Bike out during that air time as if your first one were done entirely on the ground.
 
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