Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[Tayman]

Source spot nair into waft or half fair into waft ,sourspot fair into waft,footstools into waft

 

[Boost4u]

My favorite is to ledge cancel the bike as soon as I knock my opponent off stage. Unleash the fart on the bike by the ledge to hit them during that 1 frame of vulnerability when they grab the ledge.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Boost4u As of lately the community has been saying it's actually 2 frames of vulnerability. Yay, one extra frame!

At the same time the found this they also found at if you grab ledge from above stage, you are completely invincible with no frames of vulnerability.

 

[Andaya]

So because you go in freeze frame when you hit the bike with the waft, the hitbox stays out longer and you can use it near the ledge? Is this what that's about? I've never actually learnt this tech.

 

[Spinosaurus]

So because you go in freeze frame when you hit the bike with the waft, the hitbox stays out longer and you can use it near the ledge? Is this what that's about? I've never actually learnt this tech.

Yep. It's 20 extra frames. Pretty significant amount.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Do we know why 20 and not 27? Spinosaurus

 

[Yams Everywhere]

Source spot nair into waft or half fair into waft ,sourspot fair into waft,footstools into waft

What about the first few hits of dair into waft and falling up air into waft? And are all of the combos you listed true at all percents, or only low-mid percents?

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Yams Everywhere , D-air into waft is never guaranteed afaik. It all depends on frame advantage. If you fast fall Wario's d-air, you have a 50% chance of the move having a reduction in landing lag based on whether or not the move hit the opponent the same frame it was trying to land. Then depending on the opponents weight and falling speed, they will be put into a set amount of hitstun. Depending on whether or not your move frame cancelled will decide whether or not you have enough frames to get your waft out as part of a true combo. This means this strategy is best used with half-waft (it's quicker) and from my experience tends to work on floaty characters like olimar, jigglypuff, and Mr. Game and watch. That being said, it's not guaranteed and typically requires a 50/50 risk to begin with, so don't do it unless you are super desperate or are super ahead. One might argue not to do it when super desperate because of the amount of lag d-air has (19 frames of landing lag). I tend to never do it and have found way more success just trying to bait airdodges into waft.

Up-air to waft works at very low percents and may stop being guaranteed around the point u-air sends opponents into tumble, but if you want a list of percents that it works across the whole cast, I encourage you make one or try to gain some good intuition of what percents it might work by practicing it in training mode.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Can anyone confirm if double jumping increases your speed when going for, say, a waft after landing the sour spotted n-air? When you think about it, jump speed decreases at a parabolic rate because of gravity, so wouldn't the base speed from Wario's second jump being used halfway or earlier during ascension increase the chance of waft connecting because of the frames saved?

 

[Yams Everywhere]

I just did this thing with the bike on battle field where I did a fast bike at the edge and did the turnaround animation in midair and then hit the ledge and my bike fell off (like when you normally hit bike on the side of the stage.) Can anyone explain how to do this?

 

[Andaya]

I just did this thing with the bike on battle field where I did a fast bike at the edge and did the turnaround animation in midair and then hit the ledge and my bike fell off (like when you normally hit bike on the side of the stage.) Can anyone explain how to do this?

I think it happens when you're in the air with the bike and you touch a surface on a specific frame, but I'm not really sure

 

[LordFreezyPops42]

I got 25th at Smash The Record with Wario. I felt like I could have got a higher placing, but making top 32 with Wario is nice. Hopefully, I can help bring Wario some good results as well in the future.

 

[LordFreezyPops42]

Meant to post this in the social thread, my bad.

 

[gamewinner]

I looked in this whole thread for any discussion on this but didn't find anything, so it's either not very well known stuff or Wario mains inherently know about it already.

The first thing I do whenever I edgeguard as Wario is try to read their second jump and bite it. This seems like a pretty mundane tactic, but a lot of people don't realize that unlike regular grabs, you don't get your second jump back once you're hit by it. This leaves certain characters in a situation where they either SD because they think they still have their second jump or (if their Up-B is good enough) do a delayed recovery because it takes them a while to realize that their second jump is missing. In the latter situation, I tend to drop off the stage and F-Air them just to make sure that their recovery is just out of range, or I just waft them if I have even a partial charge for an easy KO. Hell, sometimes I bite>fair>waft at a certain % before they even have the time to tech on stage.

This of course relies on the opponent's ignorance of the move's properties, but I'm honestly surprised at how often people actually fall for this. I figure that if you're in the position to consciously f-air someone as they're returning to the stage, you could have a shot at this setup. And if you condition them to expect it, you can probably go deeper into the mind games. This also works almost exclussively on characters with very predictable recoveries, but I've even caught jiggs on their last jumps. Also I can't tell you how great it feels to get an early KO on Yoshi without having to worry about the 2nd jump armor.

I guess the reason I bring this up is bc the few times I see any warios, I never see this bite setup intentionally used and I'd really like to see people who play better than I do try to come up with some really creative setups.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

My past testing could be wrong, but if you grab an aerial opponent after they've expelled their second jump with a regular grab, they still don't get their jump back.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Is forward air out of shield better than nair on shorter characters?

 

[C4-]

Is forward air out of shield better than nair on shorter characters?

even with fair it wont always connect, shorthop dair OoS however will connect on any character in the game even if they are crouching. Only drawback to dair OoS is that its about 4 frames slower to start up which can actually make a differnce in certain situations.

 

[gamewinner]

It just so happens that I ran into a perfect example of the bite setup today

If I had a bigger charge of the waft and ZSS hadn't air dodged, I probably would've KO'd off to the side rather than gimped. I wish more people knew about this so they could stop falling for it, then I can actually try to come up with better follow ups.

 

[Zionaze]

I love chomping yoshis and watching them slowly fall to their deaths

 

[Angbad]

Is there any video or post about confirms into waft? Not sure why that isn't one of the major stickied posts... lol

 

[Tayman]

Does anyone use wario's dash dance because I find it to be really good moving across the stage in a tricky fashion since wario dash dance is so much differant then the otheir characters

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Tayman , I personally feel his run turnaround cancel is very useful in some match-ups, but I find the dash dance which requires you to quickly mash back and forth on the A-stick to be completely useless due to it's negligible distance covered. That and Wario's options out of that ground-wise are limited.

 

[Tayman]

Tayman , I personally feel his run turnaround cancel is very useful in some match-ups, but I find the dash dance which requires you to quickly mash back and forth on the A-stick to be completely useless due to it's negligible distance covered. That and Wario's options out of that ground wise is very limited.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Tayman why did you quote me and say nothing lol?

 

[Tayman]

Tayman why did you quote me and say nothing lol?

Yeah sorry the message box did not show up and I found a way to convert up till into waft /upsmash but you have to hit them with the the last few frames of uptill so not very pratical in a real match

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Yeah sorry the message box did not show up and I found a way to convert up till into waft /upsmash but you have to hit them with the the last few frames of uptill so not very pratical in a real match

If you are talking about sour-spot up-tilt combos, they are extremely practical.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Hi guys, I found some cool info for patch 1.1.2 vs. Mario. I added it to my match-up info post on the Mad Scienstein concept thread. You should check it out if you haven't.

If Mario grabs Wario when Wario is at 0% and down-throws. Wario can Max Waft Mario and super armor his first u-tilt (or half-waft)! You have to buffer the waft as this seemingly only works by the exact first frame of superarmor on waft or first active frame of half-waft (so it trades). If this was say, the beginning of a match, and you both were at 0% and you have no waft, Wario can't n-air Mario until AFTER his second u-tilt. If the Mario you play a lot already knows you can do this, there is a beautiful mix-up. Wario can jump out of Mario's u-tilt string after the second one instead of using n-air, but it's very important you don't attempt to jump after the first u-tilt or it will eat your jump, and you'll then have to commit to n-air, but if you're not able to wait until the second u-tilt is passed to jump, you probably won't be in the right mindset to switch into n-air mode and you'll most likely panic and still try to jump unless you've practiced this or perfectly digested this concept mentally. If you know the Mario will try to shield your n-air or waft, you can use chomp and point it towards Mario's direction (even if you don't need to reverse it, there will be so little time you might not know where you are facing).

Moving on, if you n-air Mario after the second u-tilt, you can true combo sweetspot dash attack or get a barely not guaranteed dash grab (the difference being 4-7 damage). If you get the sweetspot dash attack, Mario's right above you and can jump out, but it may look like to the Mario that you can jump and u-air, which you can't, so the most realistic thing to do is u-tilt as Mario is very close to Wario after the initially dash attack and might air-dodge. At higher percents where sweetspot n-air sends Mario into tumble (47%+), Wario can go for a sour-spot dash attack reset. or Bike tech chase.

1 thing I'm not sure about is the actual frame advantage you are at. Yes half waft trades with Mario's u-tilt, but this might be because of hitbox spacing reason, for example, Mario might be running his hand into Wario's half-waft. I would really like to know how @TheReflexWonder can calculate frame advantage so well.

IF YOU ARE A GOD YOU CAN JUMP AND AIR-DODGE BEFORE THE FIRST U-TILT. Because shield has a higher buffer priority than jump, you shouldn't buffer the shield, but must jump and visually react to the jump and then air-dodge.

 

[Tayman]

at 0 percent you can just shield Mario's second up tilt

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Tayman So you are saying that if Mario buffers everything correctly, Wario can land after getting hit by the first u-tilt and then powershield (I assume) the second u-tilt. I'll definitely test that later today!

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Tayman I tried what you said and it did not work. Mario's subsequent u-tilts always send you higher, so if you can't shield the first you're not going to shield the others. Could you be a little more specific as to what you meant?

 

[Tayman]

Tayman I tried what you said and it did not work. Mario's subsequent u-tilts always send you higher, so if you can't shield the first you're not going to shield the others. Could you be a little more specific as to what you meant?

mb i guess i got it confused

for some reason i feel like i love with dair i mean i use it to cover ledge options, approaching tool, even just to pressure the opponent i might be thinking it's a better move then i thank. Does anyone else agree or disagree of dair being a great move?

 

[Zionaze]

I mix up my approach with sh/fh fair, sh bair, sh/fh nair and full hop dairs

 

[Tayman]

Yeah that's proably would I should be doing, a good player can porably catch on if I keep using the same move

 

[Sari]

Any tips for dealing with , specifically ones that use lemons a lot? I just lost a tournament to one that kept spamming lemons and running away. Bike didn't help much since lemons shot me off, and I couldn't really run from him since he'd use projectiles to space me.

The match in question:
http://www.twitch.tv/smashhaven/v/24524258?t=01h18m00s (Warning: contains some of the worst Wario play you'll ever see).

Also, I never said anything about Mega Man having the advantage during this match. I just said that he's doing so good mainly due to me sucking/not knowing the MU good enough. Apparently this turned into "WARIO BEATS MEGA MAN" argument with pretty much everyone saying that I'm a terrible Wario (the commentator kept bashing me for not eating the lemons, even though the other ones obviously would have still hit me).

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Sari I'm glad you were humble to share this with the boards. Losing to a match-up you don't know as Wario is nothing to be ashamed of. Wario isn't considered really good because he destroys characters ranked below himm in neutral or even outside of it in some cases, because he doesn't. Wario seemingly loses neutral to even many low tiers in the game at times. He is considered good, because if optimized he can stand up to the strongest characters of the game, because even though top tier characters might have few flaws, the humans behind them will not be perfect and Wario's punish games takes full advantage of these flaws. I've noticed from playing smash 4 Wario and melee Yoshi starting from a bottom level of play working to an arguably intermediate level of competition that until you start getting really, really good with Wario/Yoshi and I'd even include smash 4 Jigglypuff, people don't have to and won't respect your character and hardly have to think as much as you're forced to.

Watching your match, and I'm sure you agree with this, you full hop air-dodged quite a bit. I think you did it more often than not. I wouldn't say it's a bad approach unless you make it obvious you're going to do it. Megaman is a fast faller and I'm not sure how much he can even throw off a single full hop, and Wario's F-air probably beats all his projectiles in the air, so I could be wrong but I don't think the need to FH airdodge is too great. I also see you going for fast-fall d-air at Wario's percents where I'm pretty sure it wouldn't combo into anything on a character like Megaman, being a heavy fast-faller. Again I could be wrong, but I feel like you're going for it because it's instict for Wario's to do this, because it's really fast when you plummet down spinning like a drill. The problem is you got punished for it having 19 frames of landing lag. If you are going to do a fall-fall d-air when it wouldn't combo into anything, you want to fast fall, let go of the fast fall input and then hit down on the c-stick when the stick is set to attack. This will make it so that when the aerial comes out you are fast falling no more. By not fast falling the d-air, you can better control the move's horizontal momentum, so that you can cross your opponent's shield up (go behind him) and drift farther away, rather than just crashing in front of him. If people were more competent on Wario, they could probably jump-cancel u-smash Wario due to d-air having low shieldstun and high lag. Short hop autocancel f-air and mid-close range might be good against lemon spam, but you'll want to lab that yourself. I typically always go for cross up falling n-air or fast fall chomp over d-air at low percents though. If it works you could do the sh-fair, fast fall autocancel it, and then d-tilt or whatever you want. Against dark pit's arrows, Wario sh-fair will either clank with the arrow or put his hurtbox above the arrows. It's amazing and non-intuititve, but it works. Kuroganehammer.com's frame data on Megaman says his lemons are quite the commitment for megaman to make with the hitbox coming out on frame 7 and being cancel-able only until frame 36. So if you can get close to megaman and still get hit by a lemon(s) (and take very little damage lol), you might be able to shield after getting hit by the lemons, roll behind him and buffer a d-tilt or even sh-nair. In fact, at 1:18:37 you roll behind Megaman after getting lemmoned, but you tried to shield grab which is too slow. You also fish for fast fall b-air after full hop air-dodges at percents where it wouldn't kill and it doesn't autocancel. It's Wario's laggiest aerial, so it's probably only good to fast fall it if it's well-spaced, and you buffer a roll away if they shield it rather than spot-dodge. Edge-guarding Megaman can be done by a well timed dash attack or fast fall d-air, on the right stages. If you fast fall the d-air and it hits, fade towards the stage, so the attack spits Megaman away from the stage, because Megaman won't get back if he's used his jump. I *think* Megaman is extremely capable of edge-guarding Wario, so if you bike, don't stay on too long against megaman, peach, sheik, pit, etc. because they'll snipe you off. I feel like you didn't really have a percent flow chart for Megaman considering your moves didn't change too much throughout the match, and seemed to focus more on just getting in. I'd personally suggest never taking Megaman to FD or any Omega ever again.

Good luck.

Also, to people curious about little mac's KO punch, I was told he's guaranteed 6 seconds of having the punch, so if you grab him early into his getting KO punch, you probably need to pummel once or twice and then B-throw Mac since it's Wario's longest throw in terms of animation time.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Ssbm_Jag I'm pretty tolerant to double posts and I let yours slide since your posts are very helpful and insightful, but rules are sill rules so I'll have to ask you to avoid them as much as you can from here on. Editing your posts should suffice, unless both posts are long, analytical posts.

 

[Micaelis]

First off, WAH! I'm Michael, a Georgia Smasher who was Top 5 in GA with Wario in Brawl. I initially dropped Wario in Smash 4 but recently have seen the error of my ways and am fully back to supporting the lovably stinky fat man.

With that out of the way, I was pouring through Wario's frame data and labbing a bit and was sad to see he has no aerial options out of a SHAD. But then I realized, he does! He has Double Jump.

I realized today though that this information was already discovered but somewhat hidden among Reflex's Footstool entry in the Mad Scienstein: Combos, Concepts and Creativity thread. I just wanted to write it out a bit more obviously.

Here we go. Wario has a potentially useful SHAD option in SHAD > DJ which can be used to perform:

SHAD > DJ > Rising Aerial
SHAD > Footstool > Dair/Waft

There is also the very useful option, pointed out by Zionaze below, of:

SHAD > Bite

The Rising Dair option is easiest to perform on taller characters but VERY difficult to impossible to perform on medium to small characters. It does NOT require a footstool. The rising Fair/Nair options are mostly to punish characters who FH/SH'd during your SHAD and when using Nair, can end in a FF Nair > Combo.

Reflex has a comprehensive list of characters which can and cannot be Footstool > Dair/Waft which is found in the aforementioned thread.

This tech is pretty nifty and I encourage more Wah-rio's to sporadically and intelligently utilize it in their matches to punish people who think they can get away with repetitive or telegraphed spacing options.

 

[Zionaze]

I love to do SHAD > Chomp.

 

[C4-]

First off, WAH! I'm Michael, a Georgia Smasher who was Top 5 in GA with Wario in Brawl. I initially dropped Wario in Smash 4 but recently have seen the error of my ways and am fully back to supporting the lovably stinky fat man.

With that out of the way, I was pouring through Wario's frame data and labbing a bit and was sad to see he has no aerial options out of a SHAD. But then I realized, he does! He has Double Jump.

I realized today though that this information was already discovered but somewhat hidden among Reflex's Footstool entry in the Mad Scienstein: Combos, Concepts and Creativity thread. I just wanted to write it out a bit more obviously.

Here we go. Wario has a potentially useful SHAD option in SHAD > DJ which can be used to perform:

SHAD > DJ > Rising Aerial
SHAD > Footstool > Dair/Waft

There is also the very useful option, pointed out by Zionaze below, of:

SHAD > Bite

The Rising Dair option is easiest to perform on taller characters but VERY difficult to impossible to perform on medium to small characters. It does NOT require a footstool. The rising Fair/Nair options are mostly to punish characters who FH/SH'd during your SHAD and when using Nair, can end in a FF Nair > Combo.

Reflex has a comprehensive list of characters which can and cannot be Footstool > Dair/Waft which is found in the aforementioned thread.

This tech is pretty nifty and I encourage more Wah-rio's to sporadically and intelligently utilize it in their matches to punish people who think they can get away with repetitive or telegraphed spacing options.

Are there any situations where SH Airdodge->DJ->aerial/special is more beneficial than FH airdodging other than trying to footstool ?I feel like full hop airdodge allows you to disengage from you opponent if an opening doesn't present itself better than SH. i just overall FH airdodge approach more than short hop so I'm wondering if I'm missing out on utilizing short hop AD.

 

[Sari]

If Wario techs Ganondorf's side-B, will he have enough time to waft before Ganondorf can react?