Wobbling Compromise

[PB&J]

can we compromise fox shine infinite against a wall..no we wont. i think the icy player who gets the grabs will still win the set so why do all this stuff just because u suk vs icys..against falco we can just do the d throw chain grab and kill him..and reverse d throw chain grab to other characters

people are acting like there are 2-3 icys per tourny which in reality there is barely 1-2 icy users in each state and thats pushing it.

 

[D1]

Ban Wobbling 'Nuff Said ^_^.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I will say you have never had an IC to fear.

rofl typical ignorant swf american. yhea amsah and armada are the only good euro smashers, thats how they got that good mirite?
but hey these are the same people who said that armada wasnt even on the same level as american peaches and that he shouldnt even be considered in a discussion of who the best peach is. what do i expect rofl.

 

[Pr0jecT]

Every time MikeHaggar posts in a thread it eventually leads to him complaining about DEM AMERICANS NOT RESPECTIN DEM EUROPEAN PLAYARS. >:[

We get it, euro has good players, you don't need to bring it up everytime someone makes a snyde comment or waves off your opinion.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Every time MikeHaggar posts in a thread it eventually leads to him complaining about DEM AMERICANS NOT RESPECTIN DEM EUROPEAN PLAYARS. >:[

We get it, euro has good players, you don't need to bring it up everytime someone makes a snyde comment or waves off your opinion.

I approve of this

You can't compare anything that gives the player control to wobbling.

 

[Hax]

banning wobbling not only goes against character balance, it is dumb in general and numerous other techniques would have to be banned before it

as for character balance, you're taking the ~8th (morelike 10th) best character in the game and sh*tting on it. in a game with 7 good characters i see no reason to ban a technique that would potentially add an 8th character to the list of viable characters

to successfully wobble displays a closer skillgap between the two players than techniques such as being a good jigglypuff player in general, the latter which may not necessarily mean you're as good as your opponent, even if you're beating him. as it is, IC's have an extremely difficult time grabbing the opponent. they're slow, they're outspaced by just about every viable character, they received double shield knockback since there are 2 of them (making shieldgrabbing not an option vs anyone who knows what they're doing) and i can safely say that only bad players get grabbed often by IC's. on top of this wobbling is situational, as nana must be extremely close to popo for it to actually work.

regardless, even if wobbling was legal, which it should be, it would only force players to learn the ridiculously simple ability of avoiding getting grabbed by IC's.

i can name numerous other techniques that take less skill than wobbling, but you get the idea

honestly the reason you guys are pro-ban is because it makes winning a tournament easier for you. should you run into chu or wobbles in tourney, sure the match would be slightly easier for you to win. i don't really think wobbling's legality would matter that much because the only good IC's players nowadays know how to 0-to-death out of a grab anyway.

 

[mastermoo420]

but then you have to be prepared to dq somebody for doing 8 tilts.

That's dumb. I meant that it's like the stalling/% limit and kinda like a speed limit; you should stop when you reach a certain point, but you can go over a little. I mean, it's not like if they hit 201% then you're DQ'd when you use wobbling.

 

[john!]

i just read big d's comparison to the freeze glitch, which raises an interesting point... why is the freeze glitch banned? some would say stalling, but stalling is banned anyway. freeze glitch isn't easy to get, and if you pull it off then you deserve to take the opponent's stock (it only takes 10 seconds or so). if wobbling is unbanned then this should be too.

 

[PEEF!]

I really like what Hax said. Uncommonly articulate haha =D

i just read big d's comparison to the freeze glitch, which raises an interesting point... why is the freeze glitch banned? some would say stalling, but stalling is banned anyway. freeze glitch isn't easy to get, and if you pull it off then you deserve to take the opponent's stock (it only takes 10 seconds or so). if wobbling is unbanned then this should be too.

The freeze glitch is not difficult to hit, and it is very different.

1) I hit it 90% of the time. Handoff to nana near the edge, she fthrows, sideb as the fthrow hitbox hits, bam. Frozen.

2) If you accidentally (or your teammate accidentally) uses an iceblock/blizzard while they are frozen, the game ends. Nothing can remove them from the iceblock. You cannot grab or hit them out ever. This in my mind is the biggest problem because when I play around with the freeze glitch in friendlies, accidental iceblocks and blizzards happen, and the game is then over. Not legit. That possibility alone rules out its legality in my mind.

 

[RESET Vao]

To be fair; In Brawl, when an Ice Climber grabs you, they Chaingrab you to death. And it's not banned.

Why is wobbling banned? It's the same equation with minor differences.

/thread

 

[john!]

Okay then, Peef. I've only done the glitch once or twice so I'm not familiar with it.

Hax's post was really good. I hope the MBR unbans wobbling after the clear majority of anti-ban response from the community.

 

[Roneblaster]

Why have no anti-wobblers addressed this? You guys have no answer?

btw, I still disagree with the compromise because:
1. It is unnecessary. People have to stop being scrubs.
2. 5 tilts is such an arbitrary number. What happens if I lose sight of which of my A taps is corresponding to tilts and I do 6 by mistake? WHAT I GOT DQ'D BECAUSE I MADE A TECHNICAL ERROR?

Also, I don't think a specific percentage cap should be placed on Wobbling since it should be obvious when the player is attempting to stall out the timer. What if you get a grab in the pit on the rock part of Pokemon Stadium? Obviously you are gonna want to wait for the stage to transform, which may mean Wobbling until 500%. There should be nothing wrong with that.

i believe the anti-wobblers have addressed this, and it has been deemed "dumb" and not a legit compromise.

once again, sorry that all of your characters moves dont end in a death every time you land one. welcome to the rest of the melee universe.



and peef you didnt clarify anything.

the question remains. 5-tilts per grab or only 5 tilts in a row?

because if the "great wobbling compromise" is made the new standard, i will lead the way in the campaign to make wobbling legal.

 

[Taj278]

Anyone that tries to compare the Frezze Glitch to Wobbling fails at critical thinking. Not only is Wobbles guaranteed to become the best player in the world, but I'm dropping my main and picking up my ****ty ICs that can't Wobble so I can do the Freeze Glitch and laugh my way to money.

You can freeze glitch from ANY grab that Nana gets. You have WAY more margin for error with waiting for Nana to get in position to HAND OFF and freeze glitch than you do for Wobbling. Wobbling requires an active "combo" on your character that can be stopped indefinitely by the mistiming and complete lack of action by a player. Stalling with any technique of this nature (Rising Pound, Wallbombing, Wobbling, etc) can be done, but it is almost never in anyone's best interest because you're using it to recover or take a stock.

The other major problems with the freeze glitch is opponent DI. They can easily just DI up and away from being grabbed again and released from the freeze glitch, or if for whatever reason you're down in percentage, they can just accidentally press B and voila, nothing they can do. There are just way too many problems with that glitch that take away from actual gameplay for both players.

You can try to come up with 17 different rules to try and justify and dance around the freeze glitch, like saying, "if wobbling is unbanned then this should be, too," so just wobble them when you get a freeze glitch, right? I already explained to you that you're taking away the whole balance of Wobbling in the fact that you can mash out of grabs with plenty of time before Nana can begin wobbling you even if you deserved to get wobbled before 50% depending on how quick you are.

Ease of use is not an excuse for the sole excuse for a technique being broken. Is it hard to press down B on a ledge and shine spike every character? The only bad thing about Wobbling in comparison watching your character get shine spiked is that you feel humiliated sitting there watching your percentage going up knowing you're going to die.

A lot of good and smart players can actually agree with the player that if they get wobbled, they ask if they can let go and just SD. Saves time, pride, and helps you keep your morale. I'm sure most ICs can sympathize with that.

Freeze Glitch =/= Wobbling, though it is kinda fun to watch Wobbles Freeze glitch someone, wobble them, into freeze glitch, into hand offs, into freeze glitch, into wobbling. Another reason why the Freeze glitch is banned is because of that one match with Cort vs. PC Chris from a while back. Where PC knocks Popo away and he's forced to recover and Nana grabs PC from across the stage, but Cort does a forward B and freeze glitches PC. Not only was it done intentionally, but it opens up all kinds of gateways for people to feign innocence.

There shouldn't be a Wobbling compromise. How are you going to stop an IC from doing 5 seconds of Wobbling, down throw > down air > 5 seconds of Wobbling > down throw down air > Wobble'd > Up/Forward smash? It might spare your feelings a little bit, but it isn't doing anything for the game.

Honestly, I can still play my Mewtwo against a wobbler of Chu or Wobbles' caliber, it is difficult yes, but it can be done. Don't get grabbed.* Attempt to split the ICs so Nana is being controlled by the AI as much as possible so she is always out of position to **** your *** with her mighty hammer. I swear Nana's AI is better than any IC player. I'd be more for banning ICs for that reason alone than ****ing Wobbling.

Everyone is still missing the key argument here. If Wobbling is so broken, why don't you pick up ICS, teach yourself to Wobble in 10 seconds cuz it is LIEK SO EZ OH EM GEE, and laugh your way to $2000 cash? I would have if I could, but I just can't do it, and I've only met three-four people that have actually Wobbled me in such a way that it was legitimately inescapable when they pulled it off on me. Let me reiterate that the balance in Wobbling is the fact that you have to get punished with it in the same way that you can get punished for up throw > rest, up tilt > rest, shine spiked, and flat land shine infinited.

 

[TemPesT-]

ice climbers are so full of drama. screw wobbles the phoenix for ever making it in the first place. man up and play real characters you ****** *******

I didn't make it.

Sorry I play a fictional character.

tempest you are a brilliant troll

because you pissed me off hard with that post

i'm sorry, i was trolling, to be honest i don't really care if ice climbers can or can not wobble, but i will look down on the technique.

@Wobbles seriously? you didn't make it? then who did? also i don't hate you, i actually like watching you play

 

[Roneblaster]

people who say these 2 things need to leave this thread:

Wobbling = insta win, so why dont you do it?

and

dont get grabbed.

you arent contributing, you're merely feeding trolls and trying to sound cool.

 

[PEEF!]

"5-tilts per grab or only 5 tilts in a row?"

I don't really know what you are saying. You can only do a 5 tilt wobble per grab, after that the IC player has to throw you, and if they want to do 5 more tilts, you will have to go thru an escapable or non-infinite chaingrab.

If people really start saying the whole "then they can just dthrow dair into another 5 tilts boo hooey" well learn to escape dthrow dair. If you want tips, talk to Zhu. We spent an hr or so just him learning how to get out every time now he does it. Or talk to RockCrock, who also got out very regularly.

Non-IC players can't just sit there and complain about how wobbling is gay and you cant DI or anything, and ALSO sit there and complain about chaingrabs that are 100% escapeable or that are non-infinite. Learn how to get out and stop tailoring the game to your liking.

PS: Reneblade might actually be the only one making these baseless whinings, so I guess I'll stop listening to him.

 

[Taj278]

Ok, then what is the problem with a technique that is supposedly broken and ban-worthy that hasn't resulted in anyone in particular dominating the scene for 8 years since its discovery? I'd like to contribute, but honestly the only problems I'm seeing with Wobbling are the fear of people stalling (which hasn't happened), the ease of use, (which it isn't) and how unskillful it is, as I once again haven't seen any crazy upsets.

How can I further contribute to this discussion?

 

[pockyD]

people who say these 2 things need to leave this thread:

Wobbling = insta win, so why dont you do it?

and

dont get grabbed.

you arent contributing, you're merely feeding trolls and trying to sound cool.

what about people whose sole argument is 'WOBBLING IS DIFFERENT!!!'

 

[iamthemicrowave]

peef is ruining smashboards with his horrible posts. they are everywhere

 

[PEEF!]

peef is ruining smashboards, everytime you post i wanna punch something

...... mk

(get ur edit ninja'd)

 

[Ballistics]

Ok, then what is the problem with a technique that is supposedly broken and ban-worthy that hasn't resulted in anyone in particular dominating the scene for 8 years since its discovery? I'd like to contribute, but honestly the only problems I'm seeing with Wobbling are the fear of people stalling (which hasn't happened), the ease of use, (which it isn't) and how unskillful it is, as I once again haven't seen any crazy upsets.

How can I further contribute to this discussion?

Please propose a compromise for someone who disagrees with you and is anti wobbling.

 

[PEEF!]

Please propose a compromise for someone who disagrees with you and is anti wobbling.

Taj: Or voice your opinion on the "Great Compromise" at the bottom of the OP.

 

[pockyD]

From the perspective of someone who's pro-wobbling, why would you compromise with someone who's wrong?

Consider everyone that hates playing jigglypuff and assume you're one of the rational ones that knows that it's just a character, same as any other; do you think it makes any sense to propose some sort of compromise (say, jiggly can only be played on yoshi's story)? Of course not! why would you compromise with people who are being irrational?

Anything anti-wobbling people propose at all is indeed a "compromise" simply because wobbling is so ill-defined; the only real no-wobbling rule is no ftilting at all in grabs (or no grabbing, or anything even more ridiculous up to 'no ice climbers', which i'd be more likely to agree with than any sort of 'no wobbling'), which I don't think a single person has pitched (or would agree with)

tl;dr - Any compromise is inherently anti-wobbling

 

[Ballistics]

Yea true, i just think its cool to hear what people would say, preferably using PEEFs format cause that stuff is slick

 

[PEEF!]

From the perspective of someone who's pro-wobbling, why would you compromise with someone who's wrong?

Consider everyone that hates playing jigglypuff and assume you're one of the rational ones that knows that it's just a character, same as any other; do you think it makes any sense to propose some sort of compromise (say, jiggly can only be played on yoshi's story)? Of course not! why would you compromise with people who are being irrational?

Anything anti-wobbling people propose at all is indeed a "compromise" simply because wobbling is so ill-defined; the only real no-wobbling rule is no ftilting at all in grabs (or no grabbing, or anything even more ridiculous up to 'no ice climbers', which i'd be more likely to agree with than any sort of 'no wobbling'), which I don't think a single person has pitched (or would agree with)

tl;dr - Any compromise is inherently anti-wobbling

You are totally right, and most pro-wobblers have your same view, including myself. Anti-wobbling arguments are not objective and completely irrational, but as it stands now the majority is just owning the IC minority. The idealism of full wobble legality is great, but I don't think it is possible.

However, making lemonade out of lemons with a compromise is far better than simply putting up with the sour taste of a subjective and unfair reality.

 

[john!]

lol i'm pro wobbling, but i offered a compromise and got bashed by some other pro-wobblers. we just have to accept that anti-wobbling is the standard, and any change will probably come gradually instead of a sudden lifting of the ban.

the only big problem i see with the great compromise is that it's hard to enforce the 5-tilt rule.

i wonder if views on wobbling correlate to political views. i'd bet they do at least a little bit.

 

[Taj278]

i'm sorry, i was trolling, to be honest i don't really care if ice climbers can or can not wobble, but i will look down on the technique.

@Wobbles seriously? you didn't make it? then who did? also i don't hate you, i actually like watching you play

This is the first time I've ever seen it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s2ZdglLW28#t=01m20s I saw this video back in like 2004 though.

I'm not sure if ZackSoup learned about it before that video though. I'm pretty sure he's the one that taught Wobbles how to tilt infinite a long time ago.

I don't think the 5 tilt compromise is a good idea, you might as well ban it, because they can legally do that anyway. Without proper synchronization, they can still get 5 tilts and call it good. You're basically just saying that they can't Wobble, and don't counter-pick them. It's like HugS' stupid rule from Nice Shot Hugo for ICs.

I like the agree to release and SD rule for Wobbling more if we're going to make it tourney legal. I'm pretty sure you can also pull off the infinite with down tilts. Some IC main correct me if I'm wrong here, but I know I liked doing down tilts in grabs when I fooled around with the ICs.

From a spectator perspective, I actually don't mind watching someone get Wobbled, but of course I hate it when it happens to me. I find it more interesting than watching a Jiggs ditto, though.

 

[X1-12]

I'm Pro Wobbling, Anti-Stalling.

How can anyone not agree with this?

 

[PEEF!]

I don't think the 5 tilt compromise is a good idea, you might as well ban it, because they can legally do that anyway. Without proper synchronization, they can still get 5 tilts and call it good. You're basically just saying that they can't Wobble, and don't counter-pick them. It's like HugS' stupid rule from Nice Shot Hugo for ICs.

That is basically what I am saying. And yes, 5 tilts is legal almost everywhere. The only reason that is in the compromise is for clarification.

I like the agree to release and SD rule for Wobbling more if we're going to make it tourney legal. I'm pretty sure you can also pull off the infinite with down tilts. Some IC main correct me if I'm wrong here, but I know I liked doing down tilts in grabs when I fooled around with the ICs.

I think this is only a good idea for friendlies (release and SD). It only takes probably 5 seconds more to just do the whole thing than for the other guy to run off the edge then fall to their death, and there is something completely...dishonest...or...illegitimate about that.

Dtilt wobble actually has 1 frame per cycle that the person getting wobbled can imput something, making it technically not an infinite.

lol i'm pro wobbling, but i offered a compromise and got bashed by some other pro-wobblers. we just have to accept that anti-wobbling is the standard, and any change will probably come gradually instead of a sudden lifting of the ban.

the only big problem i see with the great compromise is that it's hard to enforce the 5-tilt rule.

i wonder if views on wobbling correlate to political views. i'd bet they do at least a little bit.

The 5 tilt rule is easily enforced. 1 warning, then if they do more than 5 tilts again/continue the first one deliberately they most forfeit a stock. The 5 tilt rule is as easy as counting every hit of the 5 tilt wobble out loud. That's how I do it. There is no confusion.

The "X amount of tilts" rule is tested and common, it will be in place at ROM3.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i'd rather freeze glitch was on above wobbling though, at least freeze glitch is funny and you can potentially smash DI up and automatically win the match if youre up a stock

freeze glitch is way easier for good IC players to set up than wobbling. execution is arguably harder, but once they learn the timing, all they need to do is for nana to get ANY grab and then time the forward b.

i promise you, wobbles will be top 5 in the world if they legalized freeze glitch

wobbling is significantly more situational than freeze glitch. popo and nana can be on opposite ends of hyrule and initiate a freeze glitch. wobbling requires the ice climbers to be together, and it can be mashed out at lower percents due to the nature of setting up the infinite.

at least after getting shined you actually HAVE options. after you get grabbed, there's no hope.

yes, i said it.

no hope

rotate control stick 360 degrees very quickly and brush ABXY with your right thumb

you can probably escape up to like, mid percents with this depending on how quickly you can do it.

freeze glitch isn't easy to get. if wobbling is unbanned then this should be too.

easier than wobbling given you know the timing
no, it shouldn't

@Wobbles seriously? you didn't make it? then who did? also i don't hate you, i actually like watching you play

ChuDatnvm idk

 

[Lovage]

peef take my name out of your sig plz

 

[Taj278]

I guess I have nothing else to say in this thread. I actually agree with PockyD 100% here, the only compromise I can think of for Wobbling still actually allow Wobbling. I see the problem with enforcement coming from a lack of spectators.

The 5 tilt rule is easily enforced during hyped matches or finals, but I feel like there is just as much potential for dishonesty with this compromise as there are with even my proposed compromise that I've witnessed. The worst scenarios are the person lying about SDing after getting Wobbled or the person just Wobbles them anyway.

Oooohhh! I just remembered my stupid idea for a compromise that can be enforced in a similar fashion to the tilt rule. The opponent gets one C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER pause each match in an attempt to interrupt the Wobble! I'd be all for that. :D The pause can't last for more than 5 seconds and it can only be executed during a Wobbling phase, otherwise the current rules on pausing during a match stand. (Emergency, agreement, controller malfunction, resets, etc.)

Otherwise... I guess, good luck in coming to some kind of consensus on your compromise.

 

[Oracle]

This thread is full of trolls, but I just want to say that anyone who says that the ice climbers' grab game is amazing without wobbling is ********. Sure, i can dthrow-dair-regrab on fast fallers, but it doesn't work against anyone even remotely floaty, most notably marth, puff, and doc (it doesn't even work on heavy characters like link). Against puff the IC's only good option is to grab and wobble; without it the ice climbers can do squat to puff.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Ban Wobbling in pools, and allow it in Bracket matches. That's really the only reasonable compromise. Everything else is just too hard to enforce and really doesn't leave anyone happy.

I dunno, obviously Wobbling isn't game-breaking as everyone here has discussed. And the only legit reason to ban it is it's lame. But wobbling in low/mid level play when the ICs player probably won't place well in the tournament anyway is a bit discouraging for the other player. However, in a match much further in the tournament, this can help make the ICs a bit more viable for top level play. Also, we'd see non-IC players get better at mashing out, spacing, and killing off the nana, while IC players would improve with setting up grabs, tech-chasing/reading, and doing better with only one IC left.

 

[SDC]

Wobbling should be legalized. There is no point to ban wobbling, and not ban rest, shine, or some other "cheap" move or technique, like for example sheik's chaingrabbing.

In order to keep wobbling from being used as a stalling tool, the % limit should be 200%. I'm quite sure that the entire cast dies from a charged Ice Climber smash anyway underneath 200%, so that should seem quite fair to the Ice Climber player as well.

Wobbling gives a nice counterpick to many top tier choices right now such as fox, falco, jiggz, and sheik. It should be legalized for the sake of balancing the game, at the very least.

 

[Nintendude]

I'm pretty sure Wobbling was discovered by a random Japanese guy sometime before 2003 or 2004. It's just called Wobbling because he was the first player to attempt to use it in a tournament.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Shine, rest, and any other moves nubs keep on bringing up to being comparable to wobbling are terrible arguments. Why do those keep on getting brought up and who honestly thinks it makes any sense?

I'm not even anti-wobbling, but my compromise sure beats anything anyone else proposed.

-.-

 

[PEEF!]

Krazy, yours just causes inaccurate pools vs bracket results. Its like telling Falcon he can't knee in pools, then unleashing the car battery in bracket. Inaccurate results.

 

[SDC]

Shine, rest, and any other moves nubs keep on bringing up to being comparable to wobbling are terrible arguments. Why do those keep on getting brought up and who honestly thinks it makes any sense?

I'm not even anti-wobbling, but my compromise sure beats anything anyone else proposed.

-.-

Rest is similar to Wobbling because they both usually guarantee a KO when utilized successfully.

However I do see your point. A more accurate comparison might be sheik's chaingrabbing, which imo is almost as "cheap" and combos into any one of her many KO moves.

EDIT: lol sheik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpbCBT1TGdg

 

[KrazyKnux]

But I don't think it would change the results that much from where they are now. Cause think about it, for the most part Wobbling is already banned. So obviously pool results don't change at all. And since Wobbling isn't game-breaking as we've all pointed, it can't do too much to the bracket either. But it could possibly affect the placing of top-level IC players some in later matches, which is really all they should be caring about.

Besides, if it did affect the results that much then it could arguably be game-breaking, and thus reasonably bannable.

I know it's not a perfect fix, I'm just trying to come up with a reasonable compromise since it'll be too hard to get every TO to agree on either banning it or no, which is obvious because this thread has blown up so much.