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Why "splitting" in tournaments should not be allowed

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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not that anyone in this thread has ever made it to grand finals LOL

except for me
I played against you in Grand Finals. Ah, my honeymoon was a strange trip indeed that happened to take me through New York on the day of a Nintendo World tournament.

On topic, we didn't split.

Guys, you are all honestly missing the bigger picture. Sports grew into big business because of the fans. Fans paid money to see players play hard, and then to buy the merchandise of teams and players that they respected. People were willing to spend money on a polished product.

Say what you will about how hard it is to make money on this game, and that's fine. But don't expect any outside money to flow into the game when the finals matches of major tournaments are garbage and when players are publicly declaring that they have already split. It won't happen.

I'll continue to say that you have every right to do what you want with your money. It doesn't mean that it is in your best interests to publicly declare your right to do so. I'll shy away from saying it is stupid, but that is at least shooting yourself in the foot.

There's really no relevant issue here, and I don't understand why Jesiah is being attacked. If you don't care to discuss the issue then stay out of this thread.
 

teh_spamerer

Smash Master
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Good luck Mario

*I have respect for people that stayed late to watch my matches for entertainment.
*I have respect for people that stayed late to try and learn from my matches.
I have more respect for the 1-2 people people who placed high along with myself then the random people I don't know who got last place.

*I want whoever actually deserves the money to get it, not the person who would have been second place.
Let's say every match comes down to last stock last hit and it goes to the last possible match of grand finals and in one of the matches someone tripped into a move that killed them. One person deserves to get way more money because of a random number?

Also, you have stated many times that
Is the money really all people care about nowadays?
So stop bringing up nonsense that you care about the money.

*I realize that this is a competition, not a lil get together with a pot and friends to manipulate it.
See above.

*Some of my morals stem from the values that are competition, improvement, fairness. These are all more than enough incentive for me to play out every match, including Grand Finals.
Good for you, not everyone has your exact beliefs and morals.

Listen people, that's not how it's supposed to be. When you get to the Grand Finals, you should be the most nervous out of the whole tournament. You should be tense, scared, you should be saying to yourself "Now is when it counts the most. I made it this far, if I can just pull off this win I'll be the champion." You shouldn't be breathing your sigh of relief. That's just stupid and really takes away from competitive gameplay.
You're just romanticizing competitive smash. A tournament consists of nothing more then people playing each other according to rules. Since 90+% of smashers go to tournaments to have FUN competing, I see no reason why the people who get dead last doing Ganon dittos should be allowed to have more fun then the winners doing Ganon dittos.

Another stupid thing I hear is "Well people are tired at the end of tournaments because they've been playing all day." DUH! Tournaments require stamina and endurance. If you don't have it, then you don't deserve to win and don't deserve the money that the is reserved for the winner. Simple as that.
You aren't going to get interesting, epic matches if people are falling asleep while playing
 

Ryan-K

Smash Master
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Nov 23, 2003
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Staten Island, NY
When did Teg score again? :p

I feel the need to post some stuff in here cause I don't feel like it's really been addressed enough.

1. STOP WITH THE SPORTS ANALOGIES
Guess what? All the players on both teams in the super bowl already are making 6 figures whether or not they win or not. It's a career and they're gonna get theirs one way or another. In smash, you don't make money regardless. You make money by winning. So when you get to the finals and 1st place is getting $140 and 2nd place is getting $40, a split of $90 each ensures that both of them go home with a sense of not wasting the day for a paltry $40 and encourages them to stay on top of their game to be able to do it again (rather than the slightly weaker of the two slowly start to question why the hell he plays this game). If you want the "pros" to owe something to the rest of the community, you need to compensate them regardless and have them play for something that's not their livelyhood, because people don't gamble with their livelyhood.

Basically, there's no way to stop splitting, if people want to do it, they will. But if it's really that big a deal, you need to stop with the winner-take-all mentality and/or attach rewards that can't be split (and no, checks are stupid, people will still split, it will just be more of a pain. I'm talking about pride, trophies, points in a circuit, etc.).
Sports can't be applied to smash because in smash you aren't playing for anything besides money except in certain tournaments. Assloads of people are splitting because a majority of the people who win in brawl find the game boring and really don't like playing it.

Kish, no smash player is going to buy merchandise with say mew2king's face on a coffee mug or pc's face on a shirt, so how does that analogy apply? Lol the only loyalty people have is regional pride and quite frankly the higher tiers of skill/placings in brawl, a majority of the people in that category don't care about the game. If you wanna change it then tell people who care to stop sucking and win.
 

Hax

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KISH PRIME!!!! what's good man, when am i seeing you next. sorry i couldn't make it to that fc from like.. 2 years ago lol. there was no oos traveling for me back then. but umm, how'd that date end up going? haha
 

PB&J

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splitting sux ..and i wish no one did it anymore..its hard to enforce..no its impossible,but please don't do it..i understand where alot of people are coming from..if billy dash dancer comes from detriot to go to cali to see mango play m2k and they split the money in grand finals ..it won't be as epic for him and others to watch if they don't split.. most people play the game because they have fun ,but don't get mad at them because they want to see a real grand finals coming from detriot or even 2 miles away , when the only reason alot of people go to tournies is for them to see john play mike or chris play josh...splitting is gay..impossible to put a rule on it end of story
 

QNZ_RAFA

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QUEENS, NY
I totally agree w/ the guy that started this thread. Although I dont completely agree w/ you, I do agree to your main point. Splitting is BULL$H1T, HOWEVER its not something you can force upon ppl. If your a contender in a tournament and you made it all the way to the finals and your able to convince the person your facing in the finals to split..its really out of your hands as a spectator or host. But the event loses so much. No great final match, you can never say...wow that wuz the greatest end to a tournament ever. its like these guys just shake hands and take the money and go.

I disagree w/ you where money shouldnt be the most important. to be completely honest, Money is the reason why I even attend smasH events, when im even able to find the time to go, but the way I feel about it is different. I want ALL THE MONEY not just sum of it. If i cant have all of it , then I'll settle for my money back which is practically what 2nd place gets most of the time, but depending on the tournament.

I dont only wanna be #1 I want the money to prove it. Unless your playing your BEST FRIEND or a CREW MEMBER, not sum kid that you've met in tournament a bunch of times and you know his screen name, that's just major cop out. M2K. I dont mean to single you out.....WAIT A MINUTE. YEA I DO. You split all the d@mn time now. Its like become part of your smash profile. "If you face M2K in finals, prepare to split."

Not to mention, its like giving a complete stranger money. Yea im sure you knew the guys GAMERTAG, but does that mean you "know" the guy. Its the same as seeing that person at the local supermarket, and then being like... HEY DUDE! here's $50. and they're like..."For What?" ooo.. just becuz im scared. "Oh okay." and please... i know your not that close of friends to Azen than you make yourself out to be. I can proudly say I will split in a heart beat w/ any1 in my crew, not just cuz they're in my crew, but I've known them for 5 years +..all of them. Think about that the next time your in the finals....should I give this complete stranger money just becuz im a PU$$Y?? man up
 

Lord Yawgmoth

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You do realize I didn't respond to your post not because you made a point but because of the lack thereof, right?

I didn't give anyone anything. I said the only thing players are entitled to is competing for a pot. Splitting is a way to compete for the pot. I wasn't aware I had to break that down for you. Also, rights aren't given. They are understood and then accepted by the player.

Oh, I did "win" the thread like I thought I did. My statements have been solid, accurate, and logical while also being the least refutable hence the lack of direct replies after it was made. After all, nearly everything I've said has been fact.

And before you decide to scan through my posts and look for every statement I have made that has been an opinion, pay attention to the keyword "nearly".
I won't deny that your mindset is the most prevailent in the comunity of top players..
And if you say that splitting the pot is part of competing, then Thats fine.

Some people don't think it is.

And all I've been trying to say, (not even because of your post, to tell you the truth, I didn't think it was worth responding to either, but I didn't feel like I could post in a thread that you 'won' without responding to that first and denying that your opinion should be regarded as fact) was that TOs can have at least some effect on this, contrary to popular belief.


I am not interested in the slightest if it is the right thing to do.
If I was in the top 2 (lollololollol) and I was against someone good, I would split.
If I was in the crowd about to watch the grand finals, and they left, I would be slightly annoyed, but nothing much.


Sorry for being so annoying, I guess.


EDIT: I would just like to point out that Hax is the most amusing person ^-^
 

chaddd

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1,485
Hax is the sh*t.

That dude with the purple name that says I'm terrible at arguing my points and to please do it with logic is just upset that I don't consider anyone's feelings in my choice of words. I made my points in a well organized fashion, mixed with an insulting nature that compliments my intent to make you feel like an idiot, as you should, for posting this topic.

I know that some people just need to stray away from the point altogether to distract people from the fact that they're spewing an endless fountain of bullsh*t and trying to pass it off as the gospel.

I don't believe I'm always right, but I do know for a fact I'm right about this. Case and point? This is a dumb thread about someone unable to win tournaments and not split it himself, so he's attempting to force people to not be able to split it so he can watch matches he thinks will help him improve.

Either way, it's absolutely impossible to enforce, stupid to suggest, and downright idiotic to think that anyone with any amount of ability is actually going to agree with you on the subject. Want to post back and argue with me? Then just f*cking explain how exactly you'd enforce such a rule. And explain how you'd get anything more than a tournament of scrubs for declaring such a rule. The fact of the matter is you can't so at this point you're clearly talking out of your ***.

As for PB&J: Evan, you've never won any money from Smash so concluding that splitting is dumb is an outside opinion with absolutely no bearing in this discussion. Just because you and all these other people don't like it doesn't change the financial desires of those who are actual capable of making the choice of whether or not to split.

Basically my entire point is if you all don't like it so much, quit typing these god d*mn monologues about how much you hate it and actually develop your ability to take away the chance for anyone else to split. Until then you're all just scrubs b*tching about pros beating the trash out of you and then not agreeing to play for your amusement.

Also, I remember, Evan, that you did actually win some money. From that teams tournament in North Carolina, where I clearly was going to wreck you, like I did, but it was your idea to split because you knew you were going to lose, like you did, and we split anyway, because we're friends and I didn't want to screw over a friend like that. So, yeah, uh, way to not look like a hypocrite.

I for one will always split with my friends, and will always play out the set regardless of a split, unless it's late and I'm tired, or the venue is telling us to get the f*ck out. My reason for this is I don't like the involvement of money in any of my friendships because it makes people turn into d*ckbags. At that point your only argument is that I won't be playing my hardest because I won't care about winning more money. To that I simply say: go f*ck yourself. There is no difference between me playing hard and me screwing around unless it's incredibly obvious. In tournament I always play to win, regardless of what's on the line, be it a pools record or a brackets placing. There's not some switch I turn on when money is involved that somehow makes my games more intense or insane. It just doesn't work like that, but I'm sure that if any of you complaining actually had the ability to beat anyone noteworthy you would know that already and this thread wouldn't exist.

But please, like I said, if you're going to respond to this with disagreement, then just please explain to me how you would make me play out a set with someone who is my friend outside of Smash when we've both already been guaranteed second. If you do respond without explaining that, then you're not only making yourself look dumber by the word, but you're just proving that idiots don't need any ground to argue because they can simply continue talking about nothing, regardless of what points they are or are not making.
 

Ryan-K

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Basically my entire point is if you all don't like it so much, quit typing these god d*mn monologues about how much you hate it and actually develop your ability to take away the chance for anyone else to split. Until then you're all just scrubs b*tching about pros beating the trash out of you and then not agreeing to play for your amusement.
THANK YOU CHADDD YOU MAGNIFICENT ******* YOU

This is what I've been saying, if you don't like splitting then win for yourself :embarrass
 

Lord Yawgmoth

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^ at chadd

I agree, I would always split with my friends too[Even if not allowed, I'd do it afterwards]. (Although I would never have this chance, as I cannot forsee myself getting this good)

And it is rather noble of you to still play out the set, and it seems that most people do, and will continue to. So it seems there wouldn't be a problem from the MLG if they ever do decide to pick up this game (doubtful).

*unsubscribes*
 

Hax

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i know half of you aren't actually reading chaddd's essay but i must say there is some pretty amazing **** in there that sums up this thread quite well

chaddd are you coming to spoc? i'm reallllllly rusty and don't wanna go but me and scar are teaming apparently so i can't pass up double falcon haha =)
 

KishPrime

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Yo Hax, good to see you are still around. That wasn't a date, that was literally my honeymoon. We stopped in NYC for one day. You're probably older now...I think you were half my age when we played.

No, the merchandise that would sell wouldn't have M2K's face on it, you are thinking way too narrowly. To the people who say that we'd never sell merchandise, have you even seen MLG's swag collection? They aren't selling that stuff because people split in the finals.

To those of you who say it is impossible to enforce, it's not that hard when it's either 1) obvious, or 2) proclaimed loudly on this website. MLG threatened to ban Ken and Chu forever if they ever pulled anything like that again, and you'd better bet that they'd follow through on that. If it is being publicly discussed, a TO has every right to forbid a player from coming. If you keep it secret, then it's not a big deal.

Chaddd, I don't think there's any moral reason why you shouldn't split. However, if you have any hope, like I do, that competitive video gaming will ever be taken seriously, you'd better bet that the smart thing to do is to either not do it, or keep it secret. Yes, the chances may be small for Brawl to be a pro game, but I'm looking at the big picture.
 

PB&J

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i did split that time and ur right.....but i was really leaning on the national tournies when 30% of th people go just because they want to see someone play someone..ill split with some georgians but knot with the whole smash boards..and i agree with u chaddd i was just pointing that out because thats prob the reason people were mad//im not making threads about splitting..but i agree on certain things he said u said,hax$( see u friday punk) and a couple of others..thats all...peace
 

Scar

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That dude with the purple name that says I'm terrible at arguing my points and to please do it with logic is just upset that I don't consider anyone's feelings in my choice of words. I made my points in a well organized fashion, mixed with an insulting nature that compliments my intent to make you feel like an idiot, as you should, for posting this topic.
This is why I was pissed @ Wobbles for dismissing Mow. It's not that Mow is stupid, his points are still valid, he just calls you a moron while he makes them.

Good read chaddd, and true @ that. I will split with people that will most likely beat me and my friends, and there is no way to ever possibly be able to force someone to not throw a set to someone else in exchange for them receiving half of the prize money.
 

Hax

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kish, congrats man; i'd forgotten! thats awesome though

scar... i cant wait man =') why is jman gonna get quad knee'd on camera
 

B_AWAL

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Hax is the sh*t.

That dude with the purple name that says I'm terrible at arguing my points and to please do it with logic is just upset that I don't consider anyone's feelings in my choice of words. I made my points in a well organized fashion, mixed with an insulting nature that compliments my intent to make you feel like an idiot, as you should, for posting this topic.

I know that some people just need to stray away from the point altogether to distract people from the fact that they're spewing an endless fountain of bullsh*t and trying to pass it off as the gospel.

I don't believe I'm always right, but I do know for a fact I'm right about this. Case and point? This is a dumb thread about someone unable to win tournaments and not split it himself, so he's attempting to force people to not be able to split it so he can watch matches he thinks will help him improve.

Either way, it's absolutely impossible to enforce, stupid to suggest, and downright idiotic to think that anyone with any amount of ability is actually going to agree with you on the subject. Want to post back and argue with me? Then just f*cking explain how exactly you'd enforce such a rule. And explain how you'd get anything more than a tournament of scrubs for declaring such a rule. The fact of the matter is you can't so at this point you're clearly talking out of your ***.

As for PB&J: Evan, you've never won any money from Smash so concluding that splitting is dumb is an outside opinion with absolutely no bearing in this discussion. Just because you and all these other people don't like it doesn't change the financial desires of those who are actual capable of making the choice of whether or not to split.

Basically my entire point is if you all don't like it so much, quit typing these god d*mn monologues about how much you hate it and actually develop your ability to take away the chance for anyone else to split. Until then you're all just scrubs b*tching about pros beating the trash out of you and then not agreeing to play for your amusement.

Also, I remember, Evan, that you did actually win some money. From that teams tournament in North Carolina, where I clearly was going to wreck you, like I did, but it was your idea to split because you knew you were going to lose, like you did, and we split anyway, because we're friends and I didn't want to screw over a friend like that. So, yeah, uh, way to not look like a hypocrite.

I for one will always split with my friends, and will always play out the set regardless of a split, unless it's late and I'm tired, or the venue is telling us to get the f*ck out. My reason for this is I don't like the involvement of money in any of my friendships because it makes people turn into d*ckbags. At that point your only argument is that I won't be playing my hardest because I won't care about winning more money. To that I simply say: go f*ck yourself. There is no difference between me playing hard and me screwing around unless it's incredibly obvious. In tournament I always play to win, regardless of what's on the line, be it a pools record or a brackets placing. There's not some switch I turn on when money is involved that somehow makes my games more intense or insane. It just doesn't work like that, but I'm sure that if any of you complaining actually had the ability to beat anyone noteworthy you would know that already and this thread wouldn't exist.

But please, like I said, if you're going to respond to this with disagreement, then just please explain to me how you would make me play out a set with someone who is my friend outside of Smash when we've both already been guaranteed second. If you do respond without explaining that, then you're not only making yourself look dumber by the word, but you're just proving that idiots don't need any ground to argue because they can simply continue talking about nothing, regardless of what points they are or are not making.
QFT... Now can we close this thread already???
 

Tom

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This thread was a pretty good read, Kevin.

I fall into the "only ever got to Finals in a tournament if it was Brawl" category, but I definitely don't care if people split. At a huge named tournament series like MLG finals or something I'm sure if they asked you to still play finals like you mean it, even if you split beforehand, I'm sure everyone would. So thats what Tournament Organizers should do.

@chaddd: you asked what TO's could do to make you play finals instead of splitting: they could make you sign a paper saying you will play finals no matter what (when you sign up for tournament entry) or they dont pay you your winnings. Honestly, that would be ********, but you just asked what they could do, and they could do that.
 

Endless Nightmares

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I don't care if people split, but I want to see some entertaining matches for top 3

Not that I don't watch other sets before then...it's just that the winners/losers/grand finals matches are the best vs the best. I think everyone would like to see matches that reflect that, not just "the nobodies who got last place" as some have stated . I used the word "entertaining" above but in addition the other players get to learn from the best by watching them play to the best of their ability. And every once in a while you get to see one of those matches that's just so amazing it sends shivers down your spine, the kind of match that you and everyone else talks about for months and maybe years later. Or just some amazing ridiculous moment that you just had to be there to see. That's why I go to tournaments.
 

Scar

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After reading the OP though, Jesse does make some valid points. Of course winning money is the most important thing because it's all you physically take with you, but a separate and nearly equal reward should be pride, which should be much greater if you are the best as opposed to second best.

This isn't a debate over whether splitting should be allowed, though. It's asking the best players in the game if they play the game for the money, or to be the best.
 

chic

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hmm, well i believe that players should be able to can do as they please since it's their money... but being a huge sports guy this just seems like its killing the spirit of competition :( like whats the point??
 

pockyD

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Whether the top players feel the drive of competition is entirely up to them. It's simply not possible to just tell them that winning is more important than the money if that's not their pre-existing priority
 

chaddd

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@chaddd: you asked what TO's could do to make you play finals instead of splitting: they could make you sign a paper saying you will play finals no matter what (when you sign up for tournament entry) or they dont pay you your winnings. Honestly, that would be ********, but you just asked what they could do, and they could do that.
I either wouldn't enter and go home for having a total scrub for a TO, or I'd play it out, get the money, and then split (whether I planned to or not) with the person in 2nd after the fact. All just to spite the TO. Depends on my mood.

Defiance is a b*tch for people with pointless rules.

@Hax - I hadn't made any plans to go OOS for any tourneys, except for like 2 in SoCal, but that's because I'll be out there anyway. You should check out Tipped Off 4, like Jman is doing, and see if you can come to that. It's going to be sick big.
 

Jam Stunna

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You're right that no one can make you do anything with your money.

But what about competitive spirit? What about the best man carrying the day? What about giving the people what they paid for? I admit that these may be quaint ideas nowadays, but I thought that most of what makes competitions worth having is the spectacle of it: individuals performing at their peak to test themselves against others, for the enjoyment of those who can aspire to reach that level of competence someday.

Like I said, that may be dated thinking on my part, but I still think that's what competing is about.
 

Narukari

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You're right that no one can make you do anything with your money.

But what about competitive spirit? What about the best man carrying the day? What about giving the people what they paid for? I admit that these may be quaint ideas nowadays, but I thought that most of what makes competitions worth having is the spectacle of it: individuals performing at their peak to test themselves against others, for the enjoyment of those who can aspire to reach that level of competence someday.

Like I said, that may be dated thinking on my part, but I still think that's what competing is about.

You can have tournaments like that, just host one that has no money involved. I guarentee nobody will come outside a 15 mile radius, but everyone that does show up will not care about winning money at the end.

People are not paying to watch the tournament, they are paying to have a chance at the pot. If the competetion and strive to be the best was the only thing people played for, then tournaments would never have a money reward for winning. Even if there was no monetary reward for playing brawl, people would still play it competitively, but nobody would ever travel outside their city for a tournament.
 

Jam Stunna

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Winning money and being competitive are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to be suggesting.
 

Narukari

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Winning money and being competitive are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to be suggesting.
Not quite what I'm suggesting. It's more of a "If money is causing the problem in your tournaments, eliminate the problem"

There is definitly competition, that is how the two people that are splitting got into the finals. They beat every other person at the tournament. If they are deciding to split the pot, it doesn't make any more sence to deny them the prize money than for your employer to deny you your wages because your giving half of them to someone who doesn't work for him.

Bad analogy I know >.<

edit: Most of the time, the people splitting are friends/family and they already know which one of them is better, and already knew they were going to beat everyone at the tournament. Then they weren't attending for competitive spirit or pride. They knew they would win, they were just going to collect some money.

I'm kinda just saying what others are saying, people aren't giving $10 to the pot to perform for others.

At OSU, we have sponsored gaming events that happen once a term, we will have a smash tournament with no pot and 16-20 entries. Nothing big, but its exactly what it seems people want in their tournaments, competitive spirit in the air all the way up to the finals where everybody is watching and cheering on the two finalists.

If putting money into the equation makes the tournament not go the way the TO wants, then the TO might want to consider hosting more friendly tournaments rather than a tournament with an alterier agenda. Takeing the $80 for sure is almost always better than going for the $120 with a chance of only winning $40 if you lose.
 
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