Why "splitting" in tournaments should not be allowed

[JFox]

There is a way to keep people from splitting the pot- Make the prize money in checks. If you make it out to a specific person its inconvenient enough that no ones gonna go through the trouble of working the money out between each other unless they are friends, in which case they are still forced to do so after the tourney.

IMO its up to the person running the tourney to enforce this, not the players. People are people, they are gonna go for the money and splitting is a safe way to do it. So as the person running the tourney, inform people that all prizes will be made out in check form. Its safer than walkin around with hundreds in your pocket anyways.

 

[JesiahTEG]

JFox, good points and all. Technically, people CAN still split after the tournament via Paypal and such, but that is a very good solution that makes it inconvenient, and will probably make the Grand Finals what they should be.

At the least, it's better to at least do something than nothing at all.

 

[Omni]

Fact is though, what is ACTUALLY, by the books, technically correct doesn't mean it has to happen. Sure, we don't pay to see finals, and we pay just for a chance to compete at the pot. And you're right, it ends there. But does that really mean just because you have the right to split means you should do it?

Also, not to mention our community is becoming even more and more of a joke. Tournaments are anti climactic with splits, no videos anymore. I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done if we EVER want a chance at MLG again.

Understood. I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Your main objective is to create a community worthy of MLG status (whatever that is). That's alright, and I think that's nice. Fa'seriously.

Like you said, people have the right to split. Thus trying to stop, prevent, and discourage splitting is the same as trying to take away somebody's rights. You may think it is for the greater good, but I'm sure you've heard of many events in history where this leads down the path of injustice and separation.

Instead, I think you should focus more on something else that will allow you to reach your objective more efficiently. If splitting was the only act preventing this achievement, then I would be more inclined to support your desire to dispose of splitting.

I propose that you list your main objective, Jesiah, and create a list outlining the factors that prevent you from reaching your goal. From there, create a plan that will eliminate these factors thus making what you're aiming for more tangible.

 

[JesiahTEG]

That's a good idea, I'll give it some thought and time.

 

[JFox]

Omni, with all due respect, I have to disagree. There are a few things that hold back the community and this has always been one of them. I'm not sure how many people can recall at this point, but do you remember the uproar caused by Ken and Chu when the split at MLG? MLG flipped a ****, which in turn caused M3D to flip out on the community.

If you were to make a list of things that needed to be accomplished in the smash community in order to make headway towards more serious competition and perhaps sponsorship from corporations like MLG, this would certainly be on the list. Bottom line is that players may not have the RIGHT to watch matches, but to MLG a big part of the business is entertainment. If you ever want smash to become a game, you have to go about the route that any other sport goes- entertainment.

Now of course splitting is only one problem, and solving it isn't going to make smash join the MLG lineup. You would have to do something about ledgestalling for sure. Another thing thats been an issue lately is theft. Anyway, I'm not really a brawler, so i dont know the answers, but I do know smash and I know MLG. Splitting was def a big deal than, and it still would be now.
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Oh and Jesiah- I think with the checks people aren't trusting enough to take people on their word unless they are good friends. I mean, imagine m2k splitting with Ally and working things out through Paypal.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Hey guys, wouldn't that have been awesome if Ally, M2K and Spam split top 3 @ COT4 and didn't play it out?

Not gonna lie, it would have been nicer than losing to Sakurai.

I would have played it out regardless though. Someone asked me if I was going to forfeit to M2K if I made it to grand finals and I said no.

 

[Mogwai]

Not that I watched or cared at all about COT4 because it was barwl and hence super boring, but didn't Spam + whoever he was teaming with split 2nd and 3rd with Inui and Atomsk? And wasn't that like, an epic set or something with Spam doing ridiculous 2 on 1 comebacks? Again, I could've just been misreading stuff in the COT4 thread, but that's what I've pieced together, so it seems kinda stupid for you to point at COT4 as an example of why splitting would've ruined everything.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Mogwai, if you've kept up to date with this thread you'd understand my feelings/intentions. I don't necessarily think splitting the money is the problem, it's when finals aren't played out, or they're played out with no motivation or goofy characters. It's not a problem when people split the money but still play their hardest. Unfortunately, when people split the money they have a tendency of not playing out their sets. In this case, it's not a problem.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Mogwai, if you've kept up to date with this thread you'd understand my feelings/intentions. I don't necessarily think splitting the money is the problem, it's when finals aren't played out, or they're played out with no motivation or goofy characters. It's not a problem when people split the money but still play their hardest. Unfortunately, when people split the money they have a tendency of not playing out their sets. In this case, it's not a problem.

So basically you want to ban splitting(can't be done for reasons already explained) because there is a chance that people aren't going to play their sets out when there is an exceptionally high chance that they probably aren't playing at their best at 6 AM in the morning so that you can watch them play bad and steal the strategy known as messing up? Seems like a pretty terrible idea.

 

[Hidden MachineS]

Hey guys, wouldn't that have been awesome if Ally, M2K and Spam split top 3 @ COT4 and didn't play it out?

Wouldn't have mattered seeing as how we didn't get to see it anyway.

But yeah, I like to watch finals, I hate it when people split and just **** around. Then again, it's their decision. I don't really know how I feel about it.

 

[pockyD]

No one disagrees that we all want to see epic sets

On the other hand, if you concede that preventing splitting is impossible, then there is no way to guarantee the stakes of the finals match as being anything relevant and important to both players

Sure, you always want to play well, but do you really care as much about a glorified friendly as you would about a $500 money match ?

 

[JFox]

pocky, you're right. However, just because you can't guarantee that splitting doesn't happen doesn't mean that you can't do something to help prevent it. If winnings were made out to cash, and a big brawl tourney ended at midnight on a sunday, are people really gonna split a check? If its a tourney of a decent size, the money is gonna be too much to split by using the cash in your wallets. The banks are already closed until the next day, so thats pretty inconvenient. And paypal is an option, but it would require that you trust the person that took the check, because there's no guarantee they are gonna give you whats due to u.

So there's no guarantee, but don't u see how big a deterrent that would be?

 

[pockyD]

I'm fine with making it "difficult" for them; just with the understanding that you aren't necessarily truly banning it.

I've never been for the T.O. sanctioning the split when time constraints didn't call for it (it shouldn't be the TO's responsibility to divide up the money if the split is between the players), so if they TO elects to pay out with cashier's checks or gift cards, more power to them.

 

[JFox]

Yes, I agree with that completely. Personally, I would run tourneys like this- "barring there are no time constraints, splitting placement is not allowed. All prizes are payed by check" But I wouldn't ever say "you aren't allowed to split your prize money" because what people do with their money is their own business.

 

[CommanderCody08]

1. Competition- While splitting may seem anti-climatic, it serves several competitive functions. First, it unifies the basis of the competitive community. This allows regions to have more friendly interaction that progresses the game further. By removing money from the highest level of competitive play, we are able to bypass its implications and advance the game further.

Let's use M2K (Jason) and DSF (Alex) as examples here. Both are regional top players from their respective areas, and both have helped to improve each other at the game. While splitting did take away from the finals set, it encouraged overall competition in every other set played by both players, as 1.) their communication functions to make each player better for themselves, and 2.) both players are essentially helping each other too, as the shared skill increase helps both players and is not solely autonomous.

For an application, is it realistic to say that DSF would have placed so high in the recent tournament if M2K hadn't taught him vast quantities of information about Metaknight? By teaching DSF to play MK better, M2K can not only improve DSF's tournament placements, but as DSF improves at the character, he can return the favor. This is probably why MK's game play is so advanced at this point, and this is probably a good portion of the success of H2YL in both Melee and Brawl. Would you be as willing to teach others if you knew they would knock you out and take your money? Probably not.

Even if you disregard the skill increase that comes with this, there's also the cost to the community. Rivalries are fun, but they keep the community split and relatively small. A large integrated community encourages national level play (and growth with it) faster than the alternative does.

In both Quality and Quantity, splitting enhances competitive play by increasing the talent of the player in a given community at a faster rate.

I really don't agree with what you're saying man. I don't believe that splitting increases the skill level nearly as much as competition.

"While splitting did take away from the finals set, it encouraged overall competition in every other set played by both players"
-What? The purpose of the other sets is to make it to the finals, that doesn't change wheter you're splitting or not.

"By teaching DSF to play MK better, M2K can not only improve DSF's tournament placements, but as DSF improves at the character, he can return the favor."
- I seriously doubt that M2K taught DSF stuff, just with the intention of splitting with him on a future date. M2k probably taught him stuff cuz thats what you do, or maybe because they teamed (they have, haven't they).

"Even if you disregard the skill increase that comes with this, there's also the cost to the community. Rivalries are fun, but they keep the community split and relatively small. A large integrated community encourages national level play (and growth with it) faster than the alternative does."
If I learned anything in econimics its that rivalries encourage competition and oligopolies (if thats what they're called, OPEC, is one) discourage competition. OK, maybe I shouldn't be comparing smash to that but really, there so much more motivation to improve if you know that you're actually going to have to win to get paid. If M2K never split then that'd be absolutely forcing people to get better than him (why does he agree do split anyways, he said he lost tons of $ to it)? Plus I want to point out that M2K is going to be teaching by example people whether he splits or not, unless he really sandbags I guess. Everyone learned a ton from Ken end it was not from him splitting.
A Community of splitters is not neccesarily a large integrated community.

No no no!

Anyways, yeah as you might guess I'm against splitting. I realize you can't enforce it though.

I just want to ask people who are actually good to split behind the scenes and put on a ahow during the finals.

Edit: What a great 100th post - Now that i've disagreed with a mod I'm a smash journreyman

 

[MrPorn]

If you're up against me in the finals you BETTER split, else it'll be your funeral

 

[Melomaniacal]

If you're up against me in the finals you BETTER split, else it'll be your funeral

Look out guys, this guy means business.
Srsly.

 

[HugS™]

People want to relieve themselves of the stress of dealing with a finals match and having the weight of your entire region resting on your shoulders.

It's understandable that some top players would want to avoid this kind of pressure. Seeing as how they've been through it way too many times. It's not always the most enjoyable feeling. Also, some players just don't want to duke it out with a friend they play with all the time. So splitting isn't always about the money either.

However, I have a rule. I never split evenly. You get together the pool of money and agree to give a higher percentage of the earnings to the higher placer. It relieves the players of some of the stress, the loser still makes more money than he would without a split, it gives friends a reason to play it out, it legitimizes the placings, and you are compensated for actually trying your hardest to win.

It's win, win, win, win for everyone.

 

[Sliq]

People want to relieve themselves of the stress of dealing with a finals match and having the weight of your entire region resting on your shoulders.

Or in my case, NOT resting on a SHEIK'S shoulders.









































Awww, I made myself sad. =(

 

[TK Wolf]

However, I have a rule. I never split evenly. You get together the pool of money and agree to give a higher percentage of the earnings to the higher placer. It relieves the players of some of the stress, the loser still makes more money than he would without a split, it gives friends a reason to play it out, it legitimizes the placings, and you are compensated for actually trying your hardest to win.

I like what you do, but this is almost exactly the point I made a while back. If the winnings weren't so top-heavy, there wouldn't be a need to split in the first place.

 

[Doctor X]

Or in my case, NOT resting on a SHEIK'S shoulders.

Yeah, everyone in the MW still hates your guts for that. Just so you know.

<3 <3 <3

 

[yummynbeefy]

well im pretty neutral
as long as it at least looked like a good match and they split their money outside im fine with it

 

[ftl]

So I'm not that good of a player, but I've had experience in a different tournament scene (low-level competitive tennis, of all things) so perhaps I can put in a bit of a different perspective; I've actually thought about this a lot, because when I first joined the smash scene I was pretty horrified at things like that, which would be considered bad sportsmanship almost as bad as cheating in my other competitive community.

The thing is, Smash tournaments are run as kind of a pro-am competition. You get people with vastly differing motives coming to the same tournament - the pros who are there to pick up money, the people who aren't so good who are there to play some brawl and get beaten by the pros, the people who want to move up from one to the other...

In "real" sports, such as tennis, the distinction is usually a lot more clear-cut. Amateur competitive circuits are pretty clearly designed for the people involved to have fun playing each other, with the prizes there to encourage a play-to-win mentality and competitive spirit. (You don't get this splitting issue there, because why on earth would someone enter one of those if they meant to not play as soon as it got to the really good part? Nobody's really making a profit off of the local 4.0 league.) Pro circuits are designed to entertain the viewers and attract tv stations and sponsors, so they pretty explicitly do everything they can to prevent collusion like that - it's against the rules, and, among other things, you can't split ranking points, which are more important than the prize winnings from any individual tournament because of sponsorships and the like.

But Smash is sort of in a middle ground... you have a tournament with people who are there just because they like playing the game, with no expectation of making a profit, essentially paying the top players to come there to be the pro competition for them to fight against. It's not organized as a spectator sport; tournaments are organized for the sake of the players competing in them. I was very disappointed that Smash culture was pretty indifferent to splitting until I thought through all of that.

So yes, as long as this

When you give the director your $10, you're paying to compete for a percentage of a pot. That's it.

is true, then splitting will continue to happen. But, as long as it's true, I don't think it's that big of a deal. The tournaments aren't currently designed for the spectators.

Perhaps it would be better for the community if they were; perhaps it wouldn't matter. But whether they should be or not is a more general debate than "is splitting okay".

 

[GanonPWN!]

I can just imagine it now, USA vs Europe in WoW 3v3 arena finals 75,000 dollars on the line, the conclusion to years of hard work doing all you could to be the best, travelled across the ****ing ocean, televised to 1 million people and they roll out six ret palladins. I always hated it when players ness dittoed or **** in the grand finals, imagine if ken and bombsoldier had decided to split and opted to roy ditto instead. Think of how different the smash community would be, ****ing horrid.

If its really about the money, you should really consider a lifestyle change. go get a job that pays like 10 bucks an hour and you'll gain more money than you do at those random smash tournaments in one shift, unless you are M2K or whoever wins the BIGBIG tournies. I have nothing against actually splitting the pot its that splitting the pot causes players not to try their hardest

 

[AvaricePanda]

Like Hylian said very early on in this thread, the TO shouldn't be able to control what the people do with their money after the tournament. Handing out prizes, they can say splitting is allowed, but nothing's stopping the people from splitting afterwards, and that's perfectly fine.

People should still play in the grand finals and play well for the spectators, but if they split afterwards...why not? It's their money.

 

[Mattsy]

I haven't read anything past the first page, btw. :3

BUT.

It baffles me that people would throw the Grand Finals. I mean, okay, split the money after if you want to--that's your business, but why would you throw in the towel? Don't you want to be seen as the winner of the tournament? Don't you want that intense final with every screaming your name? Don't you want to be able to leave the venue knowing you played your best, first second third or last, regardless of how much money you take home?

It's... saddening, almost. ._.

 

[Traviz]

man wtf,

you mean people actually win money and then give it away?

i would prolly buy somebody a burger, but thats about as far as that extends...

 

[Rain(ame)]

I've come to a realization that you can't avoid splits when it comes to a "sport" that cam allow it. In reality...people make agreements to split if they reach the finals anyway. If it's you and your crewmate...you're gonna split the money anyway. You know this...he/she knows this...so play matches and get it over with. You did it in school, "Hey...if we meet each other in the end...let's just have fun and share, okay?" I know that happened with whatever "game" it was we played in school. Splitting is something that's widely common, and will happen when you've got friends/allies on opposing sides.

Having fun matches in grand finals is something that can be epic at the same time. When you get two people that truly know each other...a match that would normally seem...lame would probably end up cool. If my friend and I ever came into grand finals, I'd probably do some ******** match up like Y. Link vs. Marth on him. We'd be having fun, but in reality....still trying. We do that matchup a lot, and it's exciting and close.

Splitting and not playing a set...well unless it's in the interest of time...that should probably be what you're complaining the most about. I don't care if they're splitting...I wanna see SOME kind of matchup. i don't care if it's Eggm vs. M2K in reverse characters...I wanna see something.

Splitting and just playing one set to determine order or just to play the set. I see no problem with this...despite a split..you're still playing to finish...no matter who wins. I've seen it with Eggm/Reik and I've seen it with Treble/Eggm. (I've seen other examples, too) They split...but (insert name here) won the set. Just so you know what happens. That means they played through despite splitting. Some people could play the set anyway and not even say they're splitting. I've also seen that, xD. However...they ARE splitting and they just aren't saying. The match may LOOK intense, but it could really be them messing around, anyway. The audience wouldn't know the wiser unless someone SAID it was split.

All in all...it's like that old mental test with Beer. Students were given what they were told was beer, and they got drunk off it. In reality, it was nothing more than a harmless water or something like that. You tell a person it's a split...and suddenly people feel they got screwed over for their money. However, if you don't tell them and just do it, they're none the wiser. In other words...keep the split between the TO and the players that split. That way...the crowd still gets drunk off a "real" grand finals as opposed to the "fake" one they're really getting.

*shrugs* To be quite honest, that's how I really see the situation. It...tends to be the point.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I've never been in a position to split a pot, but if I were, I would always ask to still play the set out.

 

[Inui]

However, I have a rule. I never split evenly. You get together the pool of money and agree to give a higher percentage of the earnings to the higher placer. It relieves the players of some of the stress, the loser still makes more money than he would without a split, it gives friends a reason to play it out, it legitimizes the placings, and you are compensated for actually trying your hardest to win.

It's win, win, win, win for everyone.

If a teams split is 60/30/10, I've done 50/40 a lot between 1st and 2nd when I'm facing crewmates and friends. I agree that it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Llumys]

If you know you're going to lose, splitting is playing to win. also, how are you going to enforce no splitting? they leave with their respective money and split it outside.

I think this about sums it up.

 

[Dekar173]

Splitting will never be banned, as it's really not something that can be enforced against.

BUT:

We all see where you're coming from Jesiah, so how about if people do plan upon splitting, they are forced to play out their sets before the splitting can occur?

You can say "they aren't playing their hearts out, because the money isn't on the line"

but haven't people like M2K, DSF, Azen, and countless others demonstrated time and time again (through showing up, and the sheer amount of time that they have dedicated to Smash and its community) that they DO in fact care about it, and WILL play hard, even if it's only for the fans?

I'd take a split, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let someone else win when it comes down to Grand Finals. I don't know, hopefully others feel the same way.