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Why shouldn't MK be banned?

Irow

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
709
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Vallejo, California
Well Dojo's Metaknight got wrecked by M2K's, so don't bring him up when you're talking about pinnicle's of a character's greatness.

You can't say the metagame isn't going to advance unless you're assuming everyone stops playing this game. The game will always change with the people that play it, people getting better - people getting worse. You have no idea what the metagame is going to be like in the future, there are too many variables.

It doesn't take fancy techniques to evolve a metagame.
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
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Me thinks Mk should not be banned YET.
Gives other players something to aim for! Beat MK =D
The game resolves around defeating him

Though even if a character gets some kind counter stuff against MK, MK will still be in top tier...Then people will have to use this new Char that counters MK :D

Nvm... After a few more months, and Mk is still the Character of choice if you wanna win tournys...ban him. Brawl aint goin much further so it seems *cries*
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
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Sorry for double posting but i like this quote =D

Originally Posted by Nic64
nothing, there is no strategy that any opponent can use that puts MK at a disadvantage, that is why he is considered broken. MK's only weakness is being outplayed, that's it.

We got jack =(
 

The Halloween Captain

Smash Master
Joined
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The northeast
I'm a Metaknight main.

And I really, really want to run a touney without Meta being a legal character. Just to see the placings and whatnot.

Too bad I'd lose all my credibility if I did.
No, you really wouldn't. These tourneys are beginning to be held, partially because of the HOBO results, partially for the sake of seeing if no MK is better.
 

The Halloween Captain

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banning metaknight now would give other top/high tier mains (snake,rob,falco,lucario,wario) to much of an advantage.... and at the same time wouldnt be fair to metaknight mains that would have to learn a new character... the metagame hasnt devoloped enough to decide yet... there were times when shiek was almost at this point in melee and the metagame hadnt fully devolped yet. Metaknight is beatable therefore not broken therefore not banworthy....
Is this the best arguement for not banning MK?

Can anyone top it?
 

Dojo

Smash Champion
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Time Chamber, Texas
Jigglypuffs and Olimars are not figuring him out, I dare you to find a high-level discussion that says otherwise. And even Azen had to use MK to handle one of the MKs at HOBO.

If you don't want MK banned, find good, informed arguements and examples of the vurnerabilities of the HIGHEST level of MK.

Not at Mmac: People here still think MK has no kill moves? Is that a joke?
Idk about jiggs and oli's.
About the Azen thing, that was ONE mk. He said it himself, it was just a player matchup thing. Not the character. He did fine against all the other MK's with his lucario.

And yes people are being sarcastic about that.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Azen perhaps could've won with somebody else too. MK was just the easiest option
 

The Halloween Captain

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Idk about jiggs and oli's.
About the Azen thing, that was ONE mk. He said it himself, it was just a player matchup thing. Not the character. He did fine against all the other MK's with his lucario.

And yes people are being sarcastic about that.
I rely too much on the word of mouth of others. Sometimes I get bad info. Sorry.
 

Dojo

Smash Champion
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Time Chamber, Texas
Happens to all of us.
No biggie. But it is possible...
Best to know what's really happening before posting though.
You just really have to learn EVERY option in the matchup and utilize it very well. It's being done more and more very slowly.












This is my reasoning why he shouldn't be banned.

The metagame is revolving around him RIGHT NOW.

Any theories about the entire metagame revolving around MK dittos only in the future are obsolete. Not the other matchups.

Nobody knows for sure what's going to happen, so people need to stop throwing all that bull out there and stay patient.


The reason you see that mk's are at the top...
The TOP of the TOP players use them.

-M2K could still go D3 and **** any other MK around. I promise you. Why? He's ****ing M2K.

-Azen's Lucario outdoes any other MK around minus M2K. Why? Not because M2K is playing MK, but because he's the BEST around. Always has been.

-Now you still see a guy like Chudat competing very strongly with the TOP MK's. WITH KIRBY.

-DSF who plays Snake. Does very strong against all MK's minus M2K. Why? Because he's ****ing M2K. I promise you he can outdo 98% of all the MK's there are.


Now let's go to a little less professional level. Let's go to a strong competitive level.

You see players like Lee, Stiltz and myself using MK. We're top players at our level.
But we can still be beaten.

-RoyR a MARTH took me out at HOBO 11. DMG a WARIO takes me to some amazingly close sets.
-Stiltz has been beaten by players like Sethlon and Roy as well. Falcos and Marths.
- Lee Martin although I'm not quite to sure about who's beaten IS beatable at our level. I guarantee you RoyR would give him a run for his money.

People learn the matchup very well folks and they utilize it to the very best of their abilities.


At a lower level of competitive play.

The reason MK stays at the top of this is because these people don't know how to fight this matchup. MK IS in fact the best player in this game. He's not hard to pick up and can get you into this competitive scene. And that makes it hard for the other players at this level to compete. Thus MK's stay up top of this part of play.


It's understandable that MK is the best character in this game. But guys he can be beaten. It's been done already by plenty of people. It's been proven and it will continue to be proven time and time again. It's difficult as hell to win this matchup. But instead of whining and continuously trying to get him banned, better yourself as a player and improve your playing ability.

This game is a competitive game. The common goal should be to better yourself to overcome all obstacles. No matter how difficult they may be. I understand it's unfair to work much harder to do that. So for that I give MAD PROPS to those players who work their hardest and beat those of us that do main MK.
 

Master Raven

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Dojo, that's exactly what I'm trying to do at the moment. I'm learning the matchup with DK. I don't care if he currently has a possible 40/60 disadvantage against MK... 40/60 is nothing to me. Imagine what people with mid-lower tier mains have to go through and the win a lot of matchups that aren't' in their favor. I wanna see how far I can go with this matchup.
 

Wafflez

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Jul 3, 2008
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439
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Bellevue, Washington
I don't like Meta Knight. He's too fast, too much priority, too small a target...
He can be picked up by a large number of people and can easily come out on top, and overall, he's a very, very annoying opponent and almost always wins because he has too much of an advantage over other players.

But banning MK is far-fetched.

He's a character, just like... oh say, Captain Falcon. He can be KO'ed. He's not invincible. MK, contrary to popular belief, CAN be beat IF you're good enough. The only reason people want to ban him is because they get all worked up over getting killed by MK, but would rather ban an entire portion of the Brawl community, rather than finding a way to counter a MK and emerge victorious.

Keep MK in tournaments, don't ban him. Sure, you'll have to work harder to win if there's MKs there, but what's the fun in a game without any challenge? People should learn how to deal with MKs instead of complaining and talking of banning him.

I still hate him though.
And this is coming from a Link main.
 

HolyKnight

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I don't like Meta Knight. He's too fast, too much priority, too small a target...
He can be picked up by a large number of people and can easily come out on top, and overall, he's a very, very annoying opponent and almost always wins because he has too much of an advantage over other players.

But banning MK is far-fetched.

He's a character, just like... oh say, Captain Falcon. He can be KO'ed. He's not invincible. MK, contrary to popular belief, CAN be beat IF you're good enough. The only reason people want to ban him is because they get all worked up over getting killed by MK, but would rather ban an entire portion of the Brawl community, rather than finding a way to counter a MK and emerge victorious.

Keep MK in tournaments, don't ban him. Sure, you'll have to work harder to win if there's MKs there, but what's the fun in a game without any challenge? People should learn how to deal with MKs instead of complaining and talking of banning him.

I still hate him though.
And this is coming from a Link main.
Out of everything i read, this post makes some of the most sense.
Also what dojo said, give the game some time to develop, it's not even a year old and tears are flying out ward from a vast majority of players that could be respected, but by chanting "Ban this character because he is cheap" they are just proving themselves to be scrubs that hate to have to adapt.
While he really has NO bad matchups, this just means you need to find someone who is good with MK and practice with him using any character that you find to take advantage of his few openings. Snake can nade camp and give plenty of MK's a hard time approaching him, not to mention his uptilt kills around 100% and the range is twice that of marths upsmash.
Instead of coming in here and making threads about "mk should be banned because i lost this tourney to him." Watch videos, play MK's that live in your area, and stop whining, if you actually care this much about banning him, try caring as much about learning how to fight him.
 

choknater

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"Why shouldn't MK be banned?"

Because he can be beaten.

Dojo's got this. I came to this thread to argue, but then I saw Dojo post and I was like wow. He's got this.
 

popsofctown

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Dojo, you got knocked out by a Marth because he played better so much better than you that he overcame a bad matchup.

If that happened a whole lot, it would prove something, but at the low rate MKs get beaten right now, it would appear that everytime they lose is from a great discrepancy in skill.

I respect the belief that we should wait though, and i think every player should start learning a good MK counter before they complain.
 

Dojo

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I'm 1 and 1 against his Marth in the last 2 months. We're arguably the 2 best players in Texas right now. But it's just liable proof that it's possible to beat a good MK though.
 

•Col•

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,450
I respect the belief that we should wait though, and i think every player should start learning a good MK counter before they complain.
Lol, people are calling characters that have a close to even matchup against MK his counters now... xD

That's funny.... =]
 

1048576

Smash Master
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Messages
3,417
The metagame won't develop with Metaknight in it. People will play metaknight. Why wouldn't they?
 

TheWii

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I agree with Dojo that MK is beatable but MK is making other charachters worse. Alot of people leave their mains for MK making their charachters metagame stop.
 

Dojo

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It doesn't make other characters worse.

It stagnates their metagame a bit. But the people who stay true to their characters step up, and help develop it anyways. Although it may take a bit longer, it won't stop completely. New players have to step up though instead of complaining about it and trying to get him banned.

It hasn't happened yet, and I don't see it happening for a long while. That's just the way it is.
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
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8,189
I really hate that argument. Snake and his tilts make characters worse, D3's chaingrab makes characters worse, Mk makes characters worse, falco's chaingrab makes characters worse. It is such a stupid argument. The character stays the exact effing same.
 

brinboy789

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Suffolk, Long Island, NY
guys check out this brilliant post. its my fav post of the year

Dojo:

RIGHT NOW. It's revolving around him RIGHT NOW.

Any theories about the entire metagame revolving around MK dittos only in the future are obsolete. Not the other matchups.

Nobody knows for sure what's going to happen, so people need to stop throwing all that bull out there and stay patient.


The reason mk's are at the top...
The TOP of the TOP players use them.

-M2K could still go D3 and **** any other MK around. I promise you. Why? He's ****ing M2K.

-Azen's Lucario outdoes any other MK around minus M2K. Why? Not because M2K is playing MK, but because he's the BEST around. Always has been.

-Now you still see a guy like Chudat competing very strongly with the TOP MK's. WITH KIRBY.

-DSF who plays Snake. Does very strong against all MK's minus M2K. Why? Because he's ****ing M2K. I promise you he can outdo 98% of all the MK's there are.


Now let's go to a little less professional level. Let's go to a strong competitive level.

You see players like Lee, Stiltz and myself using MK. We're top players at our level.
But we can still be beaten.

-RoyR a MARTH took me out at HOBO 11. DMG a WARIO takes me to some amazingly close sets.
-Stiltz has been beaten by players like Sethlon and Roy as well. Falcos and Marths.
- Lee Martin although I'm not quite to sure about who's beaten IS beatable at our level. I guarantee you RoyR would give him a run for his money.

People learn the matchup very well folks and they utilize it to the very best of their abilities.


At a lower level of competitive play.

The reason MK stays at the top of this is because these people don't know how to fight this matchup. MK IS in fact the best player in this game. He's not hard to pick up and can get you into this competitive scene. And that makes it hard for the other players at this level to compete. Thus MK's stay up top of this part of play.


It's understandable that MK is the best character in this game. But guys he can be beaten. It's been done already by plenty of people. It's been proven and it will continue to be proven time and time again. It's difficult as hell to win this matchup. But instead of whining and continuously trying to get him banned, better yourself as a player and improve your playing ability.

This game is a competitive game. The common goal should be to better yourself to overcome all obstacles. No matter how difficult they may be.

i love this post. its amazing in epic proportions. everybody who goes LETS BAN MK ignores this when i post it on the "nubs who want to ban mk" thread. dojo forever yeayuhhz
 

Nidtendofreak

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*poke's head in*

It really depends on how much MK does effect other characters' metagames. If only a few other characters get some advancement (Probably Snake and DK, as they have the best bet against MK), and most others get almost nothing in advancement, it would be wise to ban MK, otherwise Brawl will turn into a 3 character game at 95% of the tournaments, with the occasional other character thrown out there who often get knocked out the first few rounds. If the other characters' metagames however, continue to evolve and catch up to MK, obviously there would be little grounds for banning him, unless some new AT comes out for MK that makes him truly broken. >_>

The real question is: How long do you give it? If you cut it too short, MK would get banned for no reason. If you leave it too long, it will take quite a while for the metagame to pick back up.

It would probably be best to ask this again at Brawl's 1 year mark, and then you could decide if MK should be banned, and if so, to what extent with fair assessments. Have it so MK can't be in any tournament, or only not in the big ones with more then X amount of people in it? Only if there is more then X amount of people can MK be played? No ban at all? Questions like that would be much easier to question around that time.
 

brightnocturn

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as an ssbb noob, this post will not have much credibility, but i think we're way too early into the game to be making decisions on whether or not characters should start getting banned.
 

Dojo

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Agreed.

It shouldn't happen. Yet.
It won't happen. Yet.
Bottom line.

But when it does, if it does, I'll be ready.
I'm gonna have to say my Diddy is becoming rather sexy. :)
 

M15t3R E

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Lol, people are calling characters that have a close to even matchup against MK his counters now... xD

That's funny.... =]
I've played great MK's before that didn't at all fit the usual stereotype- you know, d-smash and nado spamming.
I wish I could see more of those. I don't endorse the MK protest groups. No, I think MK forces everyone to play defensively, which is annoying. There are good strategies against MK's for every character such as shieldgrabbing. Anther rarely loses to MK's. I have been getting better against MK's myself. I think we do need to wait before we demand MK's be banned from tourneys- Italy be ****ed.
 

HolyKnight

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 29, 2008
Messages
251
Well, if they do ban MK i'm swapping to Marth or im going back to melee, won't be the end of the world. I still say that this is comparable to shiek in melee, and she was never banned...
 

TantalusIX

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
24
mk should definitly be banned for the sake of brawl's future imo.

In a few months from now probably half of the competitive brawl players will use mk, because they cannot figure out how to beat them. This will greatly take away the fun factor and versatility in the game (and can even result in the game's decrease in popularity.) No, I do not think mk is impossible to beat. Looking at things from a realistic perspective, of course mk is beatable. for example, nynjalink beat m2k at Esticle. But does that mean nynjalink will beat m2k in majority of the sets they play in? absolutely not. although m2k is truly better than nynjalink, I have seen great players fall victim to novice mks. This is part of the reason why I think mk should be banned. I mean lets face it, in melee, regardless of what character you used, if one player is better than the other ( the separation in skill level is evident), then, chances are, they are going to win. I know this because I've been to several melee tournies and the people that were expected to place high placed high regardless of their character. At the same time, I see a bunch of random mk players placing high at brawl tournies. Even though I do not think it is entirely neccessary to compare brawl and melee (given that thy're 2 different games), I do believe that all fighting games should have a fair balance. one would be ignorant to say that mk does not have a huge advantage over every character in the game, and is at a much higher level than all of the other characters. In brawl, sometimes the better players will lose to a lower level player simply bc of the fact that the lower player is using mk and is already coming into the match with a huge advantage. And I really don't consider that fair. Ultimately, MK is becoming ever more powerful (with new strategies, etc.) as well as popular, and this could lead to brawl's downfall. As I mentioned earlier, the game will lack versatility and fun factor if half of the people who played the game used the same character.

And one can ask....if mk is banned then won't everyone just start using snake? Although snake is a great character, as are the other top tiers, he and other top tiers have their evident counters ( so even though they may be some commonly used characters, it won't even be close to the amount of competitive players using mk.) It is very hard to say even months after the game's release that any character has an evident advantage over mk. The other characters aren't as user friendly as mk imo, and thus it is more often that the better player will stand out when matchup up with other top tiers (athough this is not true all of the time.) But, given that, I believe banning mk will still bring more balance in brawl, even if great characters like snake nd g and w were to still be playable.
 

Asdioh

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This is a tough one ^_^

Those opposed to banning MK will say stuff like:
He's beatable, learn to play
But if you think about it, they're admitting that their character is somehow so much better than all the others, that it requires special practice and attention by every other character, in order to be beaten. It's basically saying that although their character is clearly better than yours, it's still possible for them to lose (though seemingly unlikely) therefore there is nothing wrong with it.


That said, I do not think Meta Knight should be banned, at least not now, and not for a long while. I still believe that he's good, but overrated. The fact is that some of the best players from Melee believed Meta Knight to be extremely good at the beginning of Brawl, or before, if they had the game before the US release. They started maining him, and people followed like sheep, because that's what a lot of people do. This way, Meta Knight had tons of people playing him, and everything there was to know about him was quickly found out. That said, Meta Knight is still obviously too good, but not to the point where he needs to be banned.

Imagine if the pros had started maining Kirby (or insert character here) in the beginning/before Brawl, and they said he was "soooo good!" Do you think we would be seeing a lot more of that character, because people like to imitate the pros? It's something to think about.
 

fromundaman

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Imagine if the pros had started maining Kirby (or insert character here) in the beginning/before Brawl, and they said he was "soooo good!" Do you think we would be seeing a lot more of that character, because people like to imitate the pros? It's something to think about.
Well, I didn't really pay much attention to what the pros were maining when the game came out, but I do know a LOT of people flocked to Ike when the game came out, yet now he's neglected and forgotten, with only a few playing him at all.

Now personally, I would be against banning MK, at least for now, since I personally find him a bit overrated (though that really isn't a good arguement at all), and a lot of new strategies are being discovered for every character, and I figure soon enough people will have found ways to reliably counter him.
I would consider myself a decent MK player (I definitely wouldn't say I'm anywhere near the best, but I'm no slouch), and I know I am definitely beatable, and when I see people like Dojo play, it looks to me like he's so good a player he could **** most people with any character, not that he's winning only because he has a broken character.
 

ShaolinAce

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I just think MK is the new Fox and people just need to learn how to beat him. Lets just suffer for a few months.. and if it's really serious then I guess we all at the MK boards can take a bullet and allow the ban. I'm just as good with Falco in competative play so whatever.
 
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