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Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)
- Thread starter ADHD
- Start date
- Status
I was just trying to be nice and offer advice. I'm sorry you actually think like that. I'm not even being a smartass or anything..
Why not find a different approach? You could be the next person to further the metagame, but I assume with your current mentality you would consider that out of reach.
Metaknight is renown as the best character or whatever, and you claim you can not be as good as these pro players. So why not go into training mode and find a special way to beat MK on your own? Use the tools you have, if you lack "inherent ability" then use intelligence and possibly develop something new, something that's your own. In other words, there's more than one way to succeed at anything and just as many ways to fail.
This is also exactly why MK shouldn't be banned. If banned, we'd be placing additional restrictions on ourselves. Other characters have the potential to learn from metaknight, why should we limit ourselves by removing him?
Orion*
Smash Researcher
theres an old saying called, hard work beats out talent every time.
okay. maybe you arent talented. maybe you have to work twice as hard as everyone else, but the fact is you can do it if you try. wyatt is talented yes, but he has SO many weaknesses, and hes far from unbeatable. i know because ive played him... a lot.
do you honestly think youve put in the same amount of time, effort, travelling, energy, money, ladder matches, practicing tech skill, anything revolving getting better in this game as he has?
the fact is, is that even though yes in comparison to m2k he is new at competitive smash. but he has put in his time, and work to become a top player. ive seen him practice his *** off.
everyone who honestly hasnt put in the same amount of work as him and is whining is wasting my time, and youre not worth responding to.
wyatt, good ****. keep up the ****.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
*sigh* And ADHD also has an abundance of time that other people don't. He can practice amounts that others can't and can play against the best, just like pro sports players have access to the best facilities, equipment, and players with which to train.
You guys are missing the point. "Learn2Play" or "just do better" is not a viable strategy for everyone, and besides, no one is arguing that anyone should not put effort in. Pros should wipe the floor with non-pros. That's why they are better. But, they should realize that the lower levels of play sustain and pay for their higher levels of play; if both scenes aren't healthy, the entire scene will fail, just like in Tekken 4; the highest levels of play died because the lower levels of play failed. People don't realize that lower levels of play literally do not depend on higher levels of play for sustenance, but higher levels of play are entirely at the mercy of the viability of low levels of play, because without the low-level players... the pots come out to like 200$, and no one can travel OoS for a 200$ pot.
MK kills low-level play. He even jacks up mid-level play. The tournament attendance we have now is mirroring Tekken 4 to a degree that is scary, and we're totally ok with that, which is a problem. I'm sorry, but the pros need to realize that they don't make the community by themselves, and TO's need to realize that without us standing up to change things, the pros are going to walk all over everyone. ADHD may be good, but the very fact that he even thinks one #1 place at a major tournament gives him the clout to shut down everyone else's arguments without bringing anything new to the table speaks volumes.
So, I want to propose a challenge to all the pro players. I want to prove to you that you need to think about the viability of the metagame as a whole, instead of just the top. I want you to host Pound 5, but only people who have placed Top 10 in a 200+ entrant tournament may enter. See how that works out for all of you. If it works, you can sustain an entire metagame without the low- and mid-levels of play. If not (and it won't; you won't have enough money), then stop being selfish idiots and start considering the metagame as a whole.
No johns. Do it. *Removes gauntlet and slaps ADHD in the face*
You guys are missing the point. "Learn2Play" or "just do better" is not a viable strategy for everyone, and besides, no one is arguing that anyone should not put effort in. Pros should wipe the floor with non-pros. That's why they are better. But, they should realize that the lower levels of play sustain and pay for their higher levels of play; if both scenes aren't healthy, the entire scene will fail, just like in Tekken 4; the highest levels of play died because the lower levels of play failed. People don't realize that lower levels of play literally do not depend on higher levels of play for sustenance, but higher levels of play are entirely at the mercy of the viability of low levels of play, because without the low-level players... the pots come out to like 200$, and no one can travel OoS for a 200$ pot.
MK kills low-level play. He even jacks up mid-level play. The tournament attendance we have now is mirroring Tekken 4 to a degree that is scary, and we're totally ok with that, which is a problem. I'm sorry, but the pros need to realize that they don't make the community by themselves, and TO's need to realize that without us standing up to change things, the pros are going to walk all over everyone. ADHD may be good, but the very fact that he even thinks one #1 place at a major tournament gives him the clout to shut down everyone else's arguments without bringing anything new to the table speaks volumes.
So, I want to propose a challenge to all the pro players. I want to prove to you that you need to think about the viability of the metagame as a whole, instead of just the top. I want you to host Pound 5, but only people who have placed Top 10 in a 200+ entrant tournament may enter. See how that works out for all of you. If it works, you can sustain an entire metagame without the low- and mid-levels of play. If not (and it won't; you won't have enough money), then stop being selfish idiots and start considering the metagame as a whole.
No johns. Do it. *Removes gauntlet and slaps ADHD in the face*
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Sucks for you that you don't have the skill to play at a high level.
Why should we **** up the high level play among people who are ACTUALLY GOOD, just so the worse players can stand a chance? That makes no sense.
xMPDx
Smash Cadet
Why waste anything of what you said if i could just pick MK & plank the hell out of you
wanna try? it should be fun o wait... planking rules? ok then... hmm I know ill just smartly nado you until i can get you to rage quit or Down smash you. you sir are nothing but a meat rider.
*Now i wait for your reply*
ADHD
Smash Hero
Jack Keiser, I've placed 1st twice at two major tournaments now, and top 5 in every other one.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
^Haha yeah.
Actually I'd bet ICs screw over low level players worse than MK does if you suck at not getting grabbed.
Actually I'd bet ICs screw over low level players worse than MK does if you suck at not getting grabbed.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
your a troll.Why waste anything of what you said if i could just pick MK & plank the hell out of you
you sir are nothing but a meat rider.
*Now i wait for your reply*
planking isnt even banned fool, just the amount of times you can grab the ledge.
if your in my region ill mm your mk with falco or ICs for 10-20 bucks depending on the amount of cash i have.
asdioh, LOL ROCK LEE.
and ics make the game uninteractive and boring as hell for players that dont have the skill to avoid grabs, or the patience to camp them. at least mk just ***** rofl
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Well, here's your internet cookie. *awards meaningless and worthless trophy* You place top at Smash tournaments, show contempt for the people paying you money, and have no idea how the real world works. Man, I want to be just like you.
Yaeh, because not having Metaknight f**ks up high level play. Really? Even when the top spots would be more diverse without him? Even when it's been proven that the other top players aren't nearly as divisive and centralizing as Meta? Even when all the other top characters are very good in their own right? Yeah, no Meta absolutely kills top level play. And, no one is trying to make low-level players stand more of a chance against high-level players; we're simply trying to not force them to leave because of BS in their own metagames, because, you know... that would effectively kill Brawl.
Not really, since low-level players can't use IC chain grabs. Just because a pro wrecks face against a low-level player, that doesn't mean he's damaging low-level play. Inter-metagame conflict isn't the issue here; it's intra-metagame conflict, conflicts within metagames.
Kinzer
Mammy
Son, where you @? I hardly see you at any of the Gameworld tourneys I've been attending as of late.
Get that schoolwork done, and teach me how to play against Lucario.
xMPDx
Smash Cadet
why say what we already know? By planking rules i only meant the amount of time MK can do it before he pass the ledge grab count.
hey why dont you waste some of your money and travel here and see how far youll get, since your so sure of yourself and your "Skill's"
Instead of making statement that dont make sense. Why dont you try and help the smash community to be better. No! right? cause whenever people comes up with the truth the only thing you can think of to defend yourself is "were are you from? lets do a money match"
thats lots of BS your talking
I was saying someone who can use IC decently wrecks low level players.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
IC's - Chain Grabs/Infintes = Trash, even in the hands of a skilled player. The IC's aren't being played right if you can't use their grab antics, so I don't really consider IC's a low-level character. Even if a low-level player plays them well without their grabs, he's going to get wrecked because of all of the inherent disadvantages (Nana's stupidity, terrible melee range, horrendous grab range). Sure, they have **** power, but that's useless if you can't hit. Not to mention, they're pretty easy to gimp at lower levels.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
The existence of ADHD and Pound 4 disproves that statement.
No one is forcing the low level players to do anything. I haven't seen many people leave the scene over MK, and I'm sure more people would leave if MK got banned.
Jiggs is more dominant than MK is, and the Melee scene isn't dying because of her.
Btw, lower level players CAN CG.
It's not THAT hard. I can (or atleast I used to be able to about 3-4 months ago when I mained ICs) consistently 0-death most of the cast.
vato_break
Smash Master
sup? ;] anyway lol don't ban mk!! he's not even that good wtf
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Um... what? Let me help that reading comprehension. I was being facetious; obviously, a lack of Meta Knight will not kill Brawl's top metagame. Even if I was being serious, though, you're basically saying that ADHD proved that Metaknight can leave the game entirely, and top Brawl will be just fine. So... yeah. Thanks ADHD for proving my point? (BTW, all ADHD's Pound 4 victory proved was that one dude can beat Metaknights consistantly. One dude cannot sustain the metagame. Sometimes in science, experiments have results that can't be replicated. You know what happens then? The results are thrown out.)
That's because you aren't paying attention. Take it from a TO that's worked multiple 200+ tournaments and a few 50-100+ tournament and actually talked to people that aren't "uber-leet" pros: I can't even count how many people entered one of our tournaments, played noob Meta's that still one due to gay stuff, and decided to quit, forever losing the tournament's money. You don't see it because you don't pay attention like a TO does.
And, what? With the kind of money on the line as Brawl tournaments can pull, pros won't be leaving; they'll just play someone else. And low- and mid-level players want MK gone (for the most part), so they won't be leaving; they'll just play the people they've wanted to play all along.
Good for you. A ) are you low-level? B ) does the majority of low-level players do what you can? So you have a singular anecdotal story as evidence... hooray. Debate doesn't work like that, chief. Until we start seeing lots of low-level players consistently CG'ing with the IC's, it's not a low-level move.
EDIT: Dammit... I wanted to be cute.
J4pu
Smash Champion
I remember when Ally said approximately the same thing after he beat M2K at genesis (people who want to ban MK are noobs, I can beat him just fine, he's not that good. -or something along those lines)
I believe he has since changed his mind.
I believe he has since changed his mind.
^^^ XD
And about ICs ruining lower levels of play...if a "low-level" player loses to ICs, and they genuinely want to improve, they'll start thinking about ways to not get grabbed and the like.
Lain's ICs were the first pro ICs I've played offline, and I moneymatched him and got 3-stocked. That's probably the only time I ever have, or ever will, get 3-stocked (at least offline, wifail doesn't count)
I assure you that if I play him again, I may not win, but I sure as hell won't be running into grabs all three stocks without taking him with me.
I lose, I strive to get better.
I lose to MK, I strive to get better, I still lose to MK, I say "wtf man" and change my main to MK and the world dies a little.
Or I could just quit and play Melee. Which I suck at ;_;
Or I could just quit and play 64, because that game is clearly vastly superior to the other two smash games. Need more 64 tourneys
Kuraudo
4Aerith
Jack Kieser has convinced me, and reminded me of why Texas is awesome.
I don't care if he can be beaten or not. We're on a path of self destruction, and frankly, while I don't wanna sink my life into this game, it's a competitive hobby I intend to keep up for QUITE some time.
Ban that ****er, MK. His posts along with Flan from PR have had the strongest impact on the Ban MK movement. And I'm on board too.
Until then though... I'll keep fighting against them.
I don't care if he can be beaten or not. We're on a path of self destruction, and frankly, while I don't wanna sink my life into this game, it's a competitive hobby I intend to keep up for QUITE some time.
Ban that ****er, MK. His posts along with Flan from PR have had the strongest impact on the Ban MK movement. And I'm on board too.
Until then though... I'll keep fighting against them.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Yes, because desiring metaknight to be competitively viable is showing contempt for the people below me, or "paying me."
Low level players can simply get better if they want to beat out the metaknights that consistently knock them out, unless they main a low-tier'd character--then they've doomed themselves from the start.
Aren't you the guy that wanted items to be competitively viable? ROFL, and I don't know how the "real world" works..
xMPDx
Smash Cadet
True enough.
and reason enough for MK to be Ban is that he does not provide a healthy enviroment for competitive play.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Can someone provide valid evidence on how metaknight is killing the game, or ruining it?
Just saying brah not true
xMPDx
Smash Cadet
yet you pointed out something.Yes, because desiring metaknight to be competitively viable is showing contempt for the people below me, or "paying me."
Low level players can simply get better if they want to beat out the metaknights that consistently knock them out, unless they main a low-tier'd character--then they've doomed themselves from the start.
Aren't you the guy that wanted items to be competitively viable? ROFL
Why should they be doomed from the start? Right... MK...
im not saying that without him Snake, DD kong or DDD will stop getting top placings, but im sure people will feel more confident with there characters that they like, with out the fear that a blue bat will come to hunt them and gimp them with ease.
MK gone = more variety of characters in tournaments
of course lots of you see it as "who cares about more characters i want my money"
try and think in what would benefit the smash community more.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Items are kinda why your character is godly. >_<Aren't you the guy that wanted items to be competitively viable? ROFL, and I don't know how the "real world" works..
Other characters can also do amazing things with certain items, they just aren't fortunate enough to be able to spawn them at will, like you can.
thats not true haha thats just your opinion if you want more viable characters play brawl+
inb4 Overswarm/fiction/chibo etc
xMPDx
Smash Cadet
na thanks. ill just play melee its more fun
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
All right, you asked for it.Yes, because desiring metaknight to be competitively viable is showing contempt for the people below me, or "paying me."
Low level players can simply get better if they want to beat out the metaknights that consistently knock them out, unless they main a low-tier'd character--then they've doomed themselves from the start.
Aren't you the guy that wanted items to be competitively viable? ROFL, and I don't know how the "real world" works..
"Desiring Metaknight to be competitively viable" is not showing contempt, but making a post that says "I don't care about the particulars or differences between myself and any other player; I won a top tournament and thus have the right to take away another player's right to complain or dissent from established Brawl dogma simply because they aren't capable of replicating my far-above-average results, even if they lack the time, inherent skill, or opportunity that I have, all of which is obviously above average (thus giving me an inherent advantage)." is showing contempt.
You show through your posting that you not only don't fully understand why you are able to do so well, but you don't understand why others may not be able to replicate your results with a 100% rate of success (because if it was as easy or simple as you say, people would be doing it right and left). Furthermore, you show contempt for people lesser than you by obviously not caring about their own separate metagames, which are obviously, arguable, and provably affected by Metaknight in much more extreme ways than your own, separate metagames that pay for your OoS trips and prize winnings, metagames that allow your precious high-level play to exist by feeding top players with money and a constant influx of players.
You exhibit a total lack of understanding as to why and how your own competitive environment works from a real-world, cause and effect perspective and feel like boiling down everything to "simply try harder" is a legitimate way of viewing the world, when events within and without Smash/gaming prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is not the case.
And, yes, I am the guy who wanted items to become a legitimate competitive venue, even though I don't play with them and honestly don't enjoy it. I did so because I, unlike yourself, am not so shortsighted as to honestly believe that metagames that I don't belong to are any less important than my own. And guess what? Within 6 months, 6 months of extensive testing, research, hard work, and a little bit of my own skill in statistical analysis, I made a competitive items format, a format that worked beautifully in a 150+ man tournament and has received almost nothing but praise since, even if it still has flaws (flaws we are constantly trying to fix, unlike your own metagame), a format that was never intended from the start to ever replace standard SBR Smash.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
I think Jack Kieser is a pretty knowledgable person.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
I'd be 100% confident in firing my lawyer and hiring jack to represent me in court anytime.
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