Why does the Smash community have a stigma against sword-wielders?

[Putuk]

You guys, stop arguing about semantics and just agree that swords are aethetically boring.
Like "wow, the chosen hero wields the holy sword", how cliché.

Now whips, those are pretty neat.

 

[Deleted member]

You guys, stop arguing about semantics and just agree that swords are aethetically boring.
Like "wow, the chosen hero wields the holy sword", how cliché.

Now whips, those are pretty neat.

Eh, I wouldn't agree that the sword asthetic is boring. Or really that any weapon aesthetic boring. So long as the wielder can fight with their weapon in an interesting manner, I'm game.

Also, get out of here your whips, axes are clearly the best.

 

[Penroze]

Oh yeah baby, axes.

 

[Sabertooth]

Wow. Putuk has made me realize that Simon Belmont is absolutely not the first character to wield a whip. Ivysaur's got one as a part of her body!

 

[Blackwolf666]

I think it has to do with a combination of Marth and his clones , most people with counters being sword fighters , Link asexually reproducing , the hatred that some players have towards for being strong characters and the hatred towards because of several reasons.

 

[osby]

Wow. Putuk has made me realize that Simon Belmont is absolutely not the first character to wield a whip. Ivysaur's got one as a part of her body!

Don't forget

 

[Penroze]

Don't forget

Does Melee/Brawl count?

 

[YoshiandToad]

When you realise we have too many whip users...



Hammer users...


Archers:


Gunners:


Axe and Lance users really have gotten screwed.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

When you realise we have too many whip users...



Hammer users...


Archers:


Gunners:


Axe and Lance users really have gotten screwed.

The problem is all of those weapons are way more interesting than swords.
Only the Belmonts use their whips as the majority of their moveset, the same applies for Dedede and IC's for hammers. Archers are kind of annoying but they're ranged weapons so they fall under different uses entirely. Gunners are where I think they try something a little different, but then again, they're ranged weapons, and far more interesting than swords.
Also ZSS would also count as a gunner, right?

 

[Grevmak]

It's not just the swords, it's the whole aesthetic of Anime guy with Sword that bugs me a tad, that's all. This goes for other fighting games as well, I like creativity. There's tons of FE characters to choose from and we got, what, 4 ways to play Marth come Ultimate? Depends on how different Chrom will ultimately be.

Street Fighter is similarly troubled by this. There's tons of shotos with very similar stances and fighting styles, both aesthetically and mechanically, but there are magic scarf wielders, evil tyrants who use telekinesis, big burly wrestlers, masked claw fighters and so many more weird things.

I just like unique stuff in my whacky party games

 

[YoshiandToad]

The problem is all of those weapons are way more interesting than swords.
Only the Belmonts use their whips as the majority of their moveset, the same applies for Dedede and IC's for hammers. Archers are kind of annoying but they're ranged weapons so they fall under different uses entirely. Gunners are where I think they try something a little different, but then again, they're ranged weapons, and far more interesting than swords.
Also ZSS would also count as a gunner, right?

ZSS would...would Jr count as a gunner too?

Also tbh I'm not really a fan of swords in general. Putuk puts it well:

You guys, stop arguing about semantics and just agree that swords are aethetically boring.
Like "wow, the chosen hero wields the holy sword", how cliché.

I'm not sure if Putuk was being tongue in cheek but I genuinely am bored by swords getting all the weapon love. Swords are the boring goto hero weapon.

Yes, I'm aware Impa is in my wish list but the elemental magic and her nagiata are far more exciting to me than even her gigantic ass blade.

Yes, Isaac too but he's my least wanted on that list of wants and I want him for the psynergy skills. He could not touch his blade at all if he got into Smash and I'd be pretty pleased.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

The problem is all of those weapons are way more interesting than swords.
Only the Belmonts use their whips as the majority of their moveset, the same applies for Dedede and IC's for hammers. Archers are kind of annoying but they're ranged weapons so they fall under different uses entirely. Gunners are where I think they try something a little different, but then again, they're ranged weapons, and far more interesting than swords.
Also ZSS would also count as a gunner, right?

While I don’t exactly find swords uninteresting, you definitely raise a good point. Simon/Richter are the only ones with whips as their main weapons (maybe Ivysaur to an extent), same goes for hammers, and the gunners all vary greatly. When we have as all swords, and with all playing very similarly if not the same, and as far as we know play the same, I can see how swords would get boring and repetitive.

 

[Sabertooth]

There's also Shulk and Cloud, who despite their gimmicks at the end of the day have very generic sword-swingy movesets. I feel that people give these two a free pass because of Monado Arts and Limit Break, but no gimmick can make a boring moveset fun.

 

[Luigifan18]

There's also Shulk and Cloud, who despite their gimmicks at the end of the day have very generic sword-swingy movesets. I feel that people give these two a free pass because of Monado Arts and Limit Break, but no gimmick can make a boring moveset fun.

On the contrary — in a roster as huge as Smash's, it takes a lot of work for a moveset to completely stand out as its own distinct thing. The right gimmick can easily help a moveset stand out without having to be composed of wacky, unorthodox... doodads or oddities (like Mr. Game & Watch, Wii Fit Trainer, and Villager).

 

[scoobymcsnack]

On the contrary — in a roster as huge as Smash's, it takes a lot of work for a moveset to completely stand out as its own distinct thing. The right gimmick can easily help a moveset stand out without having to be composed of wacky, unorthodox... doodads or oddities (like Mr. Game & Watch, Wii Fit Trainer, and Villager).

I agree, not every character can be Duck Hunt or Olimar, some characters' tilt and other attacks are gonna feel similar.

 

[pap64]

Simple answer is simple (and possibly dumb); I always saw it as making the roster feel less varied, especially in the very early days of Smash. But with Ultimate, we have so many characters to choose from that are not sword fighters that still holding onto that mentality is silly. I also feel is because many sword fighters have cheap combo advantage over the other characters and in the wrong hands it can be annoying to deal with.

 

[Sabertooth]

On the contrary, I'd say back in the early days of Melee it was quite the novelty to get a character whose entire moveset revolved around swordplay. That's partly why Marth was so popular. Nowadays of course it's quite common, but we also have more sword fighters who fight in other ways like Meta Knight and Robin and hopefully Isaac.

 

[Yosher]

I just wish they'd do Fire Emblem more justice with weapon representation. Using a variety of weapons is rewarded within Fire Emblem. If you'd just use swords only in any given Fire Emblem game, you're bound to run into trouble and become stuck before long (unless you're just that good at the games). To me it really feels as if Pokémon was represented by Pikachu, Pichu, Raichu, Plusle, Minun, Pachirisu and Emolga; all same-y electric type rodents who could have largely different fighting styles, but 4 of them play really similar, and one has a gimmick that makes it not a pure electric type.

Outside of Fire Emblem I really don't think the sword representation is that big of an issue, but all the Fire Emblem characters currently in Smash really don't do the series justice whatsoever. Much as I love Ike (I play him quite a lot), I really feel like they should have put Hector in over him back in Brawl. Ike never would have gotten into Smash at all then most likely, but it would have felt a lot better already that way. The sword 'issue' wasn't that big back then yet though, but still.

 

[osby]

I just wish they'd do Fire Emblem more justice with weapon representation. Using a variety of weapons is rewarded within Fire Emblem. If you'd just use swords only in any given Fire Emblem game, you're bound to run into trouble and become stuck before long (unless you're just that good at the games). To me it really feels as if Pokémon was represented by Pikachu, Pichu, Raichu, Plusle, Minun, Pachirisu and Emolga; all same-y electric type rodents who could have largely different fighting styles, but 4 of them play really similar, and one has a gimmick that makes it not a pure electric type.

Outside of Fire Emblem I really don't think the sword representation is that big of an issue, but all the Fire Emblem characters currently in Smash really don't do the series justice whatsoever. Much as I love Ike (I play him quite a lot), I really feel like they should have put Hector in over him back in Brawl. Ike never would have gotten into Smash at all then most likely, but it would have felt a lot better already that way. The sword 'issue' wasn't that big back then yet though, but still.

Pikachu, Pichu, Raichu, Plusle, Minun, Pachirisu and Emolga aren't the main characters of their games.

 

[Luxent]

I think aside of Link, Shulk, and Robin, all sword characters play the same. (I know its been said 100x already in this thread).

But everytime I think of a sword fighter's moveset, its always just "Swipe my sword up. Swipe my sword down. Thrust with sword. Spin with sword."

Its also kinda upsetting to see like F-tilt and F-smash LOOK the same (A swipe with sword), although given different properties with knockback.

iunno, it just makes them boring for me.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think aside of Link, Shulk, and Robin, all sword characters play the same. (I know its been said 100x already in this thread).

But everytime I think of a sword fighter's moveset, its always just "Swipe my sword up. Swipe my sword down. Thrust with sword. Spin with sword."

Its also kinda upsetting to see like F-tilt and F-smash LOOK the same (A swipe with sword), although given different properties with knockback.

iunno, it just makes them boring for me.

You see this a lot with brawlers too, and not just among clones. Count the number of bicycle kick uairs, jump kick nairs or drill kick dairs, just to name a few.

I just wish they'd do Fire Emblem more justice with weapon representation. Using a variety of weapons is rewarded within Fire Emblem. If you'd just use swords only in any given Fire Emblem game, you're bound to run into trouble and become stuck before long (unless you're just that good at the games). To me it really feels as if Pokémon was represented by Pikachu, Pichu, Raichu, Plusle, Minun, Pachirisu and Emolga; all same-y electric type rodents who could have largely different fighting styles, but 4 of them play really similar, and one has a gimmick that makes it not a pure electric type.

Outside of Fire Emblem I really don't think the sword representation is that big of an issue, but all the Fire Emblem characters currently in Smash really don't do the series justice whatsoever. Much as I love Ike (I play him quite a lot), I really feel like they should have put Hector in over him back in Brawl. Ike never would have gotten into Smash at all then most likely, but it would have felt a lot better already that way. The sword 'issue' wasn't that big back then yet though, but still.

If Pokemon's type matchups can't make the cut, what chance does the weapon triangle have?

 

[Yosher]

Pikachu, Pichu, Raichu, Plusle, Minun, Pachirisu and Emolga aren't the main characters of their games.

I'm aware of that. I know very well that none of these Pokémon are the main characters (aside from arguably Pikachu in at least Pokémon Yellow, and the upcoming Let's Go Pikachu game), but that wasn't the point. I wasn't talking about their status/importance as a character in their games, but rather their physical appearance, as well as their weapon/element of choice. And I'm also aware that the only reason the Fire Emblem characters that were chosen was because they are either the first Lord, or the most recent one, or just a popular choice. That doesn't change my stance.

If Pokemon's type matchups can't make the cut, what chance does the weapon triangle have?

I didn't say actually implementing type matchups or the weapon triangle. Just representation.

Is it really that hard to understand that I like having variety? Fire Emblem is so much more than swords, yet swords are almost all we have in Smash, and I personally just feel like that doesn't do the series justice. That's all I'm trying to say here.

 

[osby]

I'm aware of that. I know very well that none of these Pokémon are the main characters (aside from arguably Pikachu in at least Pokémon Yellow, and the upcoming Let's Go Pikachu game), but that wasn't the point. I wasn't talking about their status/importance as a character in their games, but rather their physical appearance, as well as their weapon/element of choice. And I'm also aware that the only reason the Fire Emblem characters that were chosen was because they are either the first Lord, or the most recent one, or just a popular choice. That doesn't change my stance.


I didn't say actually implementing type matchups or the weapon triangle. Just representation.

Is it really that hard to understand that I like having variety? Fire Emblem is so much more than swords, yet swords are almost all we have in Smash, and I personally just feel like that doesn't do the series justice. That's all I'm trying to say here.

Fire Emblem don't have much variety when it comes to protagonists, pretty much all of them wield swords at least as their base weapon.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Another reason sword fighters aren't wanted in such excess is that swords are so generic. Smash/nintendo are all about quirky iconic characters. Swords are fine too, but we don't need more than a handful. At this point we want genos, incinaroars, skull kids, banjo kazzoies, Shovel knights, shantaes and waluigis. Unique characters with completely unrelated playstyles.

 

[Yosher]

Fire Emblem don't have much variety when it comes to protagonists, pretty much all of them wield swords at least as their base weapon.

There's no rule saying that the characters getting in have to be the main Lords of the games. Hence why I mentioned Hector. Micaiah also would have been an excellent choice. Also Ephraim doesn't wield a sword either, instead using a lance. And why focus on just protagonists? How about an antagonist? Point is, there are enough ways they could have Fire Emblem be represented with more than just sword wielders. And while I understand perfectly well why all these sword wielders have been chosen up to this point, I just really, really wish we would have had some more variety, and do the series proper justice with different weapon types than just swords, swords, and more swords.

And really, you don't have to agree, it's just my personal opinion on the matter. And I won't stop hoping that, if we do get a new Fire Emblem character, it will be one without a sword. Lyn is my favourite Fire Emblem character by far, but I would happily take a non-sword wielder over her for this reason alone. You can agree, you can disagree, that's up to you, but that's how I feel about it. The topic asks why people have a stigma against sword wielders, I gave my reason, that's all there is to it.

 

[Luxent]

You see this a lot with brawlers too, and not just among clones. Count the number of bicycle kick uairs, jump kick nairs or drill kick dairs, just to name a few.

But what makes brawler's more dynamic is that they come in a variety of shapes n sizes....
Swordfighters: Male Humanoids, collectively average-fast speed, relatively poor recovery as a whole.
Brawlers: Kirby, Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Fox, Mario, Luigi, Wario, Yoshi, DK, Diddy kong are all characters who predominantly attack with the 4 limbs they have, but also have a variety of speeds/body types/play styles/recoveries, etc....

ANOTHER THING TOO: With some exceptions in Corrin, Link(s), and Robin, most swordfighters "Special" moves also involve just swiping a sword any which way, with added effects. At least with brawlers, their special moves involve trinkets, projectiles, magic, so on, and so forth.

 

[meleebrawler]

But what makes brawler's more dynamic is that they come in a variety of shapes n sizes....
Swordfighters: Male Humanoids, collectively average-fast speed, relatively poor recovery as a whole.
Brawlers: Kirby, Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Fox, Mario, Luigi, Wario, Yoshi, DK, Diddy kong are all characters who predominantly attack with the 4 limbs they have, but also have a variety of speeds/body types/play styles/recoveries, etc....

ANOTHER THING TOO: With some exceptions in Corrin, Link(s), and Robin, most swordfighters "Special" moves also involve just swiping a sword any which way, with added effects. At least with brawlers, their special moves involve trinkets, projectiles, magic, so on, and so forth.

Again someone who ignores Meta Knight, a borb who relies less on spacing with moves and has a great recovery.

No fighter should be denied or permitted just on the basis of what they are or do. Imagine if the next lord was another prince with a sword, but like Corrin had something special to go with it, and got a huge fan following. How do you think they'd react if they were told he was denied solely because he used a sword and we have too many of those now? It'd be just as bad the "too big" excuse for Ridley.

Concerns about "balancing representation" should always be secondary to how important a character is overall, whether it be in the form of gender, weapon type or Pokemon type. However the truth is the brand new, non-echo Fire Emblem characters introduced make a marked effort to provide something distinct from the previous ones. It's not like Sakurai isn't aware he shouldn't just pick Lords without thinking of moveset potential first.

 

[FlintIke]

I just wish they'd do Fire Emblem more justice with weapon representation. Using a variety of weapons is rewarded within Fire Emblem. If you'd just use swords only in any given Fire Emblem game, you're bound to run into trouble and become stuck before long (unless you're just that good at the games). To me it really feels as if Pokémon was represented by Pikachu, Pichu, Raichu, Plusle, Minun, Pachirisu and Emolga; all same-y electric type rodents who could have largely different fighting styles, but 4 of them play really similar, and one has a gimmick that makes it not a pure electric type.

Outside of Fire Emblem I really don't think the sword representation is that big of an issue, but all the Fire Emblem characters currently in Smash really don't do the series justice whatsoever. Much as I love Ike (I play him quite a lot), I really feel like they should have put Hector in over him back in Brawl. Ike never would have gotten into Smash at all then most likely, but it would have felt a lot better already that way. The sword 'issue' wasn't that big back then yet though, but still.

100% agreed, I am a huge FE Fan myself and I personally don't like the overall roster for it. I mean I am totally fine with Marth,Ike,Robin and maybe even Lucina, but I am missing characters like Ephraim,Hector,Lyn,... who would at least bring a new weapon type or fight style along. I think that's one major problem with FE overall. I mean it's fine as it is for fans of Chrom and Roy but I personally couldn't care less about them.
But here is still hoping that at least my most wanted newcomer Isaac makes it in so people can enjoy someone that has a sword but could fight without using it a single time lol.

 

[Sabertooth]

I'd prefer it is Isaac got in and then didn't use his sword at all.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'd prefer it is Isaac got in and then didn't use his sword at all.

Tough luck, some of the swords you get in Golden Sun are better than any offensive Psynergy.

 

[Iridium]

Hmmm, I see some people just don't like it, but I for one like swords. Then again, I do main a swordfighter myself...

 

[Sabertooth]

We should just get Honedge and call it a day.

 

[HypnoMaster372]

Tough luck, some of the swords you get in Golden Sun are better than any offensive Psynergy.

Now I haven't played any Golden Sun games or have the knowledge of but if what you say is true, then I definitely know that that would be wasting unique moveset potential just because swords were just better than any Psynergy Issac utilises. Like, if you have the potential to be unique due to prominent abilities one possess, then you use such instead of having to be completely statistically true to the origin games, because where the fun & creativity in that.

 

[meleebrawler]

Now I haven't played any Golden Sun games or have the knowledge of but if what you say is true, then I definitely know that that would be wasting unique moveset potential just because swords were just better than any Psynergy Issac utilises. Like, if you have the potential to be unique due to prominent abilities one possess, then you use such instead of having to be completely statistically true to the origin games, because where the fun & creativity in that.

Obviously. But the idea that Isaac should never touch his sword like some kind of inverted pre-Ultimate Ganondorf is ludicrous.

 

[SuperDoom1]

All in favor of renaming this thread "reasons why Fire Emblem should have less representatives", post something.

 

[Luigifan18]

All in favor of renaming this thread "reasons why Fire Emblem should have less representatives", post something.

We already have that thread.

 

[Luxent]

Again someone who ignores Meta Knight, a borb who relies less on spacing with moves and has a great recovery.

... well that's just the thing, when people think of "Swordfighters", I dont think Metaknight comes to mind.... because he IS different.
I think there would be a HUGE uproar if another humanoid male swordfighter was in the game, versus another metaknight-esque swordfighter.

Metaknight is a welcome addition to the cast, while having Marth, Lucina, Roy, Chrom, Ike is just...a bit much.

 

[Oddball]

No fighter should be denied or permitted just on the basis of what they are or do. Imagine if the next lord was another prince with a sword, but like Corrin had something special to go with it, and got a huge fan following. How do you think they'd react if they were told he was denied solely because he used a sword and we have too many of those now? It'd be just as bad the "too big" excuse for Ridley.

I'm going to disagree to an extent, but not completely. Characters should absolutely be denied or permitted on the basis of who they are and what they do.

However it shouldn't be the only factor that's looked at.

The series is never going to have every single fighter that everyone wants. When it comes time to adding new characters, what they are and what they do should play a factor in it. As well as character popularity and design. Maybe he's popular, but does that mean he needs a spot over a slightly less popular character with a far more unique design or playing style?

Does new Lord Prince Sword Guy really add anything to Smash? Is his popularity more important than the move and play potential of unicycle riding Robot clown with a helicopter hat (this is theoretical example)?

 

[SuperDoom1]

We already have that thread.

Link plz.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Swordfighters are simply boring now. Change my mind.