Why does the Smash community have a stigma against sword-wielders?

[Mogisthelioma]

I daresay, there's a difference between Meta Knight using Galaxia and Dimensional Cape, Shulk using the Monado arts and the "Lazer Sword," Link using the Master Sword and all of his doo-hickeys, etc., versus four Marths who all have basically the same moveset. The stigma is less against sword users simply because they wild a sword and more because we're all bored of it at this point and there hasn't been much creativity in it lately.

 

[R O F L]

I daresay, there's a difference between Meta Knight using Galaxia and Dimensional Cape, Shulk using the Monado arts and the "Lazer Sword," Link using the Master Sword and all of his doo-hickeys, etc., versus four Marths who all have basically the same moveset. The stigma is less against sword users simply because they wild a sword and more because we're all bored of it at this point and there hasn't been much creativity in it lately.

The only real repetitive sword users are Roy, Lucina, and Chrom. I'm pretty sure Roy, Lucina, and Chrom all took less development time than other characters. 3 Marth clones is a bit much, but i'm fine with the differences between Marth and Roy, Lucina.
Yea, I'm guessing the real issue is with Marth clones, and not "sword users".

 

[Mogisthelioma]

The only real repetitive sword users are Roy, Lucina, and Chrom. I'm pretty sure Roy, Lucina, and Chrom all took less development time than other characters. 3 Marth clones is a bit much, but i'm fine with the differences between Marth and Roy, Lucina.
Yea, I'm guessing the real issue is with Marth clones, and not "sword users".

It's not just the Marths, it's the monotony in swordies in general. 2 Link clones doesn't help, and most swordies tend to use strictly their sword in most of their moves. Ike uses his sword only, Robin doesn't use it in his specials but that's it, Shulk uses it in everything but his neutral B, etc.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sword fighters (anybody that uses a bladed swinging weapon in the majority of their normals) have a lot of similarities on top of the sword thing.

For instance they overwhelmingly have bad recoveries, except for the ones with wings. They almost always have problems being juggled as well, again unless they have wings. Most are faster characters, unless they have several long range moves in which case they’re slower characters. Most have some decent grab reward, and then a few have memey grab games. Most have a chargeable neutral special. Many have counters. Most fall into “good range, good power, not safe on whiff.” Most are distinctively humanoid characters. Many moves have very clear design similarities, like Dsmashes being a quick chop on both sides, Dtilts being quick pokes or swipes, jabs being simple 123s almost always ending in a broad swing, or dash attacks being lunging slashes. Other moves still feel similar, like Ike/Shulk Nair or Marth/Corrin Usmash. Roy and Mii Swordfighter literally stole moves from other characters. And to top it off there’s literally two Pits, three Links, four Marths, and a few other FE characters that generally don’t seem very special.

It feels like there’s a few set attributes that get randomly put together by some machine and it’ll spit swordfighters out every so often instead of being fully featured and new characters.

Though it kinda feels that way for heavies too, considering the large amount we got and how they all overwhelmingly feel like “just pick (insert best heavy here)” the character because of how similar they feel.

 

[R O F L]

It's not just the Marths, it's the monotony in swordies in general. 2 Link clones doesn't help, and most swordies tend to use strictly their sword in most of their moves. Ike uses his sword only, Robin doesn't use it in his specials but that's it, Shulk uses it in everything but his neutral B, etc.

Link clones are old and were probably made to simply add more characters to the roster. They wouldn't add them now because the quality of new characters has gone up and the game doesn't need it's roster fattened up.

Ike is different from Marth in a good way, he's slower and has more range, plus there's Sheik who is the opposite, has less range but it insanely fast. They're not meant to be Marth-like, but they are, I guess. Add this on to the fact that both of them have a unique set of specials.

Robin and Shulk have a unique set of specials that heavily change how they play.
Also, this kinda contradicts with what you said last post, Ness and Meta Knight play just like sword users despite their specials being unique.

I get that there might be too many people like Marth or people who simply have a lot of disjoints, but this is a fighting game with 70+ characters with pre-set designs that mostly use fists or other stick-like weapons, a fighting game that is 2D, and in a world where stick weapons can only do three things.
And not wanting sword characters is stupid if the people saying this want other people with stick-like weapons that would provide the same gameplay.

If people want disjoints to be nerfed or have simply less of them, then i'm fine. But if people say "No more sword characters", but don't mention people who don't directly have a sword, then I have a problem.

 

[R O F L]

Sword fighters (anybody that uses a bladed swinging weapon in the majority of their normals) have a lot of similarities on top of the sword thing.

For instance they overwhelmingly have bad recoveries, except for the ones with wings. They almost always have problems being juggled as well, again unless they have wings. Most are faster characters, unless they have several long range moves in which case they’re slower characters. Most have some decent grab reward, and then a few have memey grab games. Most have a chargeable neutral special. Many have counters. Most fall into “good range, good power, not safe on whiff.” Most are distinctively humanoid characters. Many moves have very clear design similarities, like Dsmashes being a quick chop on both sides, Dtilts being quick pokes or swipes, jabs being simple 123s almost always ending in a broad swing, or dash attacks being lunging slashes. Other moves still feel similar, like Ike/Shulk Nair or Marth/Corrin Usmash. Roy and Mii Swordfighter literally stole moves from other characters. And to top it off there’s literally two Pits, three Links, four Marths, and a few other FE characters that generally don’t seem very special.

It feels like there’s a few set attributes that get randomly put together by some machine and it’ll spit swordfighters out every so often instead of being fully featured and new characters.

Yet almost all of them play different despite having similar-looking moves. Sword characters are and should be 100% fine as long as they still play in a way no other character does.

 

[PsySmasher]

Personally, I don’t have a major problem with swordfighters, especially since the majority of them play somewhat differently from each other.

However, I can see where people are coming from if they have a problem with Marth/Roy/Lucina/Chrom and the Links.

The others... not so much.

 

[Sean²]

Boring samey moves and/or boring characters with no personality. Generally. Except Shulk, he seems kind of interesting.

If Nintendo repeatedly adding FE characters was supposed to help get people interested in FE games then I think they failed. At least on me.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yet almost all of them play different despite having similar-looking moves. Sword characters are and should be 100% fine as long as they still play in a way no other character does.

No, not really. You must of missed the entire part where I went over how many characteristics are shared.

 

[Opossum]

Boring samey moves and/or boring characters with no personality. Generally. Except Shulk, he seems kind of interesting.

If Nintendo repeatedly adding FE characters was supposed to help get people interested in FE games then I think they failed. At least on me.

Which ones do you feel have no personality? Well, besides Mii Swordfighter for obvious reasons.

 

[Sabertooth]

I personally think that all of the FE characters are pretty bland in personality. I've played Awakening and I still think that, so it's not just ignorance. The really interesting characters in the game are side characters like Donnel and Ricken and Muriel.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I personally think that all of the FE characters are pretty bland in personality. I've played Awakening and I still think that, so it's not just ignorance. The really interesting characters in the game are side characters like Donnel and Ricken and Muriel.

You can make the case for Marth and Roy, but I don't see how this applies to Ike and Lucina.

And since when personality is the deciding factor in a fighting game when people still like vanilla characters like Mario, Link and G&W?

 

[Idon]

I personally think that all of the FE characters are pretty bland in personality. I've played Awakening and I still think that, so it's not just ignorance. The really interesting characters in the game are side characters like Donnel and Ricken and Muriel.

You've played one game... where we have characters from multiple...

Thaaaaat's still pretty ignorant.

 

[VexTheHex]

Cause in a game where you can play a water ninja frog, a pink puffball black hole, a tiny man throwing plant creatures, a large turtle monster, a magical elf princess, a electric rat, a small underdog boxer, a egg laying and throwing dinosaur, a superhero race car driver, a psychic abomination, a pink puffball singing diva, a large crocodile, a dog and duck, a fitness trainer... etc.

We then have a arm full of swordsmen and women with little gimmicks tacked onto them. But at their core they are still a male or female running around slashing with a sword. There's noting wrong with having some of these folk for sure, but it gets a bit underwhelming compared to some of our other options out there like a fairy puzzle princess, a stretch armed boxer, or a rolling western armadillo playing sheriff. Though I actually did and still do root for Takamaru and Sable Prince to a degree myself for various reasons. I even see some appeal in Isaac's earth bender aspects but find his design really flat. So it's not like I'm turned off by sword users period, it's just I rather Fire Emblem and even LoZ supply us with something more interesting then more variants of their swordsmen.

 

[Sabertooth]

You've played one game... where we have characters from multiple...

Thaaaaat's still pretty ignorant.

I don't need to be a video game scholar to figure out that most FE protagonists fit under the same heroic archetype and they keep the zanier characters as optional side units. That's pretty standard in a lot of games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't need to be a video game scholar to figure out that most FE protagonists fit under the same heroic archetype and they keep the zanier characters as optional side units. That's pretty standard in a lot of games.

What if I told you...

That Chrom is socially awkward?

Or that Ike is blunt to the point of stupidity?

And that Roy is desperately trying to figure out what to do at all times?

Or that Robin can bond with a potential wife from them getting diarrhea from eating bad food and trying to get uber buff?

The FE leads can get pretty zany. You just need to look in the supports. Like, Chrom isn't good with people. That's the opposite of the heroic archetype. It's why he has so few supports compared to everyone else.

It's like calling K.Rool a generic bad carnivore that fights hero herbivores. Same old song and dance we've done before, nothing interesting here. Oh he's a king? That's even more generic. Bad king carnivore, where have I heard that before?

It's ignoring or forgetting aspects of the characters. Just because they aren't obvious doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I personally think that all of the FE characters are pretty bland in personality. I've played Awakening and I still think that, so it's not just ignorance. The really interesting characters in the game are side characters like Donnel and Ricken and Muriel.

They all have pretty bland personalities except for Robin, who has this smug "Pfft, I knew I'd win" attitude.

 

[Fell God]

The complaints will not change reality, there really is no reason to keep doing so. Especially when considering that this "Brave" will almost certainly be using a sword as well, get used to it already. It's not like any sword fighters are """""""stealing slots""""""" from anyone.

 

[Sudz]

I don't need to be a video game scholar to figure out that most FE protagonists fit under the same heroic archetype and they keep the zanier characters as optional side units. That's pretty standard in a lot of games.

It's not surprising that you don't need a video game scholar to figure that out, considering that it's really not true at all. Why are you commenting on the character archetypes of a game you've clearly spent little to no time playing?

 

[Crosser]

Because they are taking up a slot for Crono, Sora, Isaac, Zack, and literally anyone with a sword from Samurai Showdown

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

Hey Swamp Sensei, really like the tag you have on the bottom there... Is it chronological? If so, wouldn't Duck Hunt be first?

 

[Opossum]

You can make the case for Marth and Roy, but I don't see how this applies to Ike and Lucina.

And since when personality is the deciding factor in a fighting game when people still like vanilla characters like Mario, Link and G&W?

I wouldn't even say you can make a case for Marth. He's incredibly well-written in Shadow Dragon, goes through very personal struggles and tragedies, has some great dialogue, and has a storied legacy in-universe. That's more than you can say about a good portion of the roster, but because Marth doesn't look like a rejected college football mascot, people don't take the time to actually learn this.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I love every Fire Emblem Sword Lord, no lie.

 

[Gryphon827]

1: there are WAY too many in the game. There should be only 3-4, but we have 18 in total ().
2: Most of them are really similar in terms of how you'd play them. (I'm not saying that all of them are identical. , and definitely aren't clones, but the majority of their playstyles involve outranging the opponent with complex spacing.)
3: They tend to be VERY good. Marth in Melee and Brawl, Cloud in 4 and Chrom and Roy in Ultimate are all top 5/10 characters.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Smash 4 didn't have good sword characters for the biggest duration of the meta game. Untill Cloud and Corrin came and Marth / Lucina got buffed. They are better in this engine, and I actually think Chrom and Lucina are the most clever and best Echo additions in the game. They are perfect for people not wanting to deal with the specific sweetspot orientated Marth and Roy.

Also 18 sword fighters on a roster of 72 characters is NOT a lot honestly.

 

[Iridium]

Greninja being a swordfighter is a bit of a stretch. He uses kunai, which are daggers, and those aren't the exact same thing as swords.

Even then if we did remove the ones we have, who's to say people would not complain about any other fighter archetype? If anything, people blow the amount of swordfighters in the game out of proportion. You can argue brawlers are perhaps more represented, not that that has to be a problem.

We have fighters that have many unique traits. Magic users, swordfighters, brawlers, projectile users and even martial artists, but I think those who find swords boring just make an issue out of more getting in. Maybe that's just me, but I feel like most of the reasons against swords I see are just petty. It seems like this is just a case of some people being upset at not getting what they want, and that's it.

In other words, this bias is very much beyond annoying.

Hey Swamp Sensei, really like the tag you have on the bottom there... Is it chronological? If so, wouldn't Duck Hunt be first?

The signature? The others before them actually did have earlier releases, if that's what you're wondering.

 

[Opossum]

1: there are WAY too many in the game. There should be only 3-4, but we have 18 in total ().
2: Most of them are really similar in terms of how you'd play them. (I'm not saying that all of them are identical. , and definitely aren't clones, but the majority of their playstyles involve outranging the opponent with complex spacing.)
3: They tend to be VERY good. Marth in Melee and Brawl, Cloud in 4 and Chrom and Roy in Ultimate are all top 10 characters.

Why should swords be limited in the first place, never mind brought down to three or four?

 

[ｐｓ＿]

Air juggling, spacing and conditioning? Dude you are literally talking about competitive / high level gameplay. It has nothing to do with the characters it is just a playstyle that people use. The same applies to many other (non sword wielding) characters like just to name a few.

That's exactly why he's correct. Back in Melee, whoever designed Marth inadvertently cracked the code for a high-results, low-effort character.

Go back in time with any fighter's moveset and you'll find 90% of the time their newfound success was thanks to an aerial with high reach. Bowser? Total garbage until he was reworked. Now he's still low-tier, but his forward air gives him options to approach and bash characters offstage (or keep them there.) Mewtwo? Also deemed bottom-tier, even if a notable tourney participant liked using him, but was later given long-reaching aerials to become even better. Yoshi? Had a long-reaching aerial and was decent, now has even more long-reaching aerials and is even better.

Characters aren't designed with any other formula anymore. It satisfies drooling simpletons when they jump, tap A and do something impressive, and since that description applies to most Nintendo fanboys that's what every character the team wants to be good will be provided. You will never again see a character as complicated as Melee Fox/Falco, who required you to bash your hands with a hammer just to get the right inputs. The future is nothing but fair swordsmen.

 

[Opossum]

That's exactly why he's correct. Back in Melee, whoever designed Marth inadvertently cracked the code for a high-results, low-effort character.

Go back in time with any fighter's moveset and you'll find 90% of the time their newfound success was thanks to an aerial with high reach. Bowser? Total garbage until he was reworked. Now he's still low-tier, but his forward air gives him options to approach and bash characters offstage (or keep them there.) Mewtwo? Also deemed bottom-tier, even if a notable tourney participant liked using him, but was later given long-reaching aerials to become even better. Yoshi? Had a long-reaching aerial and was decent, now has even more long-reaching aerials and is even better.

Characters aren't designed with any other formula anymore. It satisfies drooling simpletons when they jump, tap A and do something impressive, and since that description applies to most Nintendo fanboys that's what every character the team wants to be good will be provided. You will never again see a character as complicated as Melee Fox/Falco, who required you to bash your hands with a hammer just to get the right inputs. The future is nothing but fair swordsmen.

There's something funny about a Ridley main ranting about disjointed aerials.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

There's something funny about a Ridley main ranting about disjointed aerials.

Are all twenty-six thousand of your posts dismissive, worthless garbage?

 

[Opossum]

Are all twenty-six thousand of your posts dismissive, worthless garbage?

Just pointing out the irony, dude. No need to get upset.

I just find it funny that Ridley himself has a lot of the same issues you're talking about, to the point where some people even say he "plays like a swordsman" due to his tail attacks.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

Just pointing out the irony, dude. No need to get upset.

I just find it funny that Ridley himself has a lot of the same issues you're talking about, to the point where some people even say he "plays like a swordsman" due to his tail attacks.

Wow, Ridley's best attacks are disjointed fair attacks? It's almost as if exactly what I said is correct, so a flippant reply was completely useless to everyone. But anything to get that post count up am I right?

 

[Opossum]

Wow, Ridley's best attacks are disjointed fair attacks? It's almost as if exactly what I said is correct, so a flippant reply was completely useless to everyone. But anything to get that post count up am I right?

Lol calm down, dude. Your post implied it was a problematic design, is all, so I just thought it was funny. Not really a problem if you, yourself, indulge in said problem, you know?

No need to get so flustered.

 

[kirby3021]

Personally, I think the main complaints come from the 4 FE characters all based off of a similar template (as has been stated by a few others in this thread). I think there still would have been complaints if Roy, Lucina, and Chrom all had unique movesets that didn't resemble Marth's, but I think there would have been fewer complaints.
Do I think that's the only reason people complain about sword users? Absolutely not, but it might have helped a bit.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

Lol calm down, dude. Your post implied it was a problematic design, is all, so I just thought it was funny. Not really a problem if you, yourself, indulge in said problem, you know?

No need to get so flustered.

So who do I play to avoid the problem? Virtually every character has some sort of disjointed fair because, as I said, this was the big design breakthrough back in Melee. It's no exaggeration to say Fire Emblem ruined the Smash series for this reason alone, the disparity in character movesets has never been smaller.

 

[Opossum]

So who do I play to avoid the problem? Virtually every character has some sort of disjointed fair because, as I said, this was the big design breakthrough back in Melee. It's no exaggeration to say Fire Emblem ruined the Smash series for this reason alone, the disparity in character movesets has never been smaller.

It's absolutely an exaggeration. Be rational, dude, because this is just trolling at this point.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

It's absolutely an exaggeration. Be rational, dude, because this is just trolling at this point.

Not even two posts ago you were complaining about fairs (or more accurately, me complaining about fairs.) I avoided pointing out your main because that's an argument only children use, but I think you realize I'm 100% right about anime swordsmen ruining Smash at a core design level. This entire game's history after Melee can be summarized as "the fastest guy with the most disjointed aerial is the best." Even Metaknight, the nub swordsman, was this and more.

 

[Opossum]

Not even two posts ago you were complaining about fairs (or more accurately, me complaining about fairs.) I avoided pointing out your main because that's an argument only children use, but I think you realize I'm 100% right about anime swordsmen ruining Smash at a core design level. This entire game's history after Melee can be summarized as "the fastest guy with the most disjointed aerial is the best." Even Metaknight, the nub swordsman, was this and more.

The point is that I never said characters having good aerials is a problem. I only pointed out that you did. Big difference there.

If you're part of the "problem," as you put it, shouldn't you seek to change that? And if the game was truly ruined by Melee, why continue to play it and waste your money? You're not making too much sense.

Regardless, this is starting to veer off topic, buckaroo.

 

[Quillion]

You know, a lot of people keep bringing up the brawlers when countering sword users.

But at least all the brawlers punch and kick in different ways. They have punches, elbow strikes, roundhouse kicks, flying kicks, spinning kicks, there's just so much variety.

The only two real sword attacks are slash and stab. And all sword users don't go beyond that.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

The point is that I never said characters having good aerials is a problem. I only pointed out that you did. Big difference there.

If you're part of the "problem," as you put it, shouldn't you seek to change that? And if the game was truly ruined by Melee, why continue to play it and waste your money? You're not making too much sense.

Regardless, this is starting to veer off topic, buckaroo.

No, it's not off-topic. This thread is about why people hate anime swordsmen, thus I'm explaining how FE character design has permanently tainted character design in this series, elaborating on a more thought-out reason for disliking the characters than "they look gay." You, being the triple-A super veteran orange text VIP poster that you are, called my replies off-topic because you play Chrom and it made you upset.

I don't want Smash Bros. to devolve into fast cretins jumping and tapping A at one another, but that's what it is right now. If there wasn't money involved none of the professional players would have left Melee. That game was great by accident, apparently.