Why does the Smash community have a stigma against sword-wielders?

[Gotmilk0112]

It's more that there's just like 10 Fire Emblem characters in the game now and just about all of them are sword fighters

 

[Opossum]

Unfortunately marth doesnt speak for all sword characters. Even if he is something special hes a part of an oversaturated playstyle. Almost every smash match ive had in this game there are always sword users and id be lucky to get a match with less than 2. They , like mii fighters, just kill my vibe for this game.

Out of curiosity, what are your feelings on characters that have a similar playstyle to a Swordfighter, but don't use swords? For example, many Ridley players utilize his disjointed aerials the same way they would a sword user, and good spacing is a key component to playing Ridley (and the entire point of Skewer, too).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You should be spacing with every character, not just swordies.

 

[RepStar]

Out of curiosity, what are your feelings on characters that have a similar playstyle to a Swordfighter, but don't use swords? For example, many Ridley players utilize his disjointed aerials the same way they would a sword user, and good spacing is a key component to playing Ridley (and the entire point of Skewer, too).

I never thought of a swordfighter when i fight ridley..

 

[The Slayer]

Out of curiosity, what are your feelings on characters that have a similar playstyle to a Swordfighter, but don't use swords? For example, many Ridley players utilize his disjointed aerials the same way they would a sword user, and good spacing is a key component to playing Ridley (and the entire point of Skewer, too).

That varies from non-sword users since most tend to have something holding them back. Ridley is still combo food, so I don't find that much of an issue with him. And aesthetically it works with him since his tail was usually his go-to, mid-range attack from his Metroid appearances.

 

[Opossum]

You should be spacing with every character, not just swordies.

Oh I know. I'm just saying that generally it benefits them more than most other characters due to their disjoints.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh I know. I'm just saying that generally it benefits them more than most other characters due to their disjoints.

I mean.... every character has disjoints and every character should do it.

It's just more obvious with sword characters but its always there.

The net benefit is largely the same. You hit the opponent while staying safe.

 

[Admiral Pit]

It feels like there's too many arguments and joking around here that may be happening, so perhaps I can help again?

So basically you have these:

-From the Zelda series you have 3 different Links... and Ganon having sword attacks as smash attacks. Despite the Links having similarities, what makes them different is that they make use of different weapons and items along with their sword, from bows to bombs and shields.
-All of the Fire Emblem members... though Robin prioritizes magic, and Corrin shapeshifts. 2 of the FE characters are also echoes.
-Meta Knight is the small and fairly fast sword user in a way.
-Pit and Dark Pit are partial sword users, but I definitely see them getting a pass as they're kinda like a versatile type of fighter, and the former has introduced dual blades to Smash. They also have a few different weapons they use in combat.
-Shulk introduces an energy blade of sorts that also introduce stat-changing powers through the use of Monado Arts.
-Cloud... I don't wanna talk about him.
-I have no knowledge on Mii Swordfighter.

There are other characters that use a sword in at least one of their attacks, such as Kirby, Megaman, and Ganon, but I rather not speak about them as they're not primary sword users. The brings me to the other characters.

, , and are sword users that each make use of many different items and weapons with them, such as arrows, bombs, boomerangs, and carry a shield with them. They're surprisingly not echoes to each other, and have their own capabilities.
- being one of the first natural swords besides Link. He's more focused on using a sword compared to Link, and his tipper mechanic which requires spacing to be more effective.
- is one of the FE echoes in question with a sword. Basically Marth minus the tipper, making her more balanced and easier to work with. It'd only approve of her staying because of this reason.
- is the heavyweight swordsman (even though he's surprisingly quick on a lot of his moves... *mumble mumble*). Honestly the only primary heavy swordsman (Ganon doesn't count as he is not a primary sword user).
- in contrast to Marth/Lucina prefers to be up close in battle, the latter is an echo to the former.
- is a unique cake that despite having quite a bit of moves featuring a sword, his/her primary feature is magic, which is definitely unique.
- is one who I don't have much knowledge about. I do see a sword on him/her, but turns out much of his/her moveset features shapeshifting.
- is pretty much the short, but speedy swordsman, with a variety of attacks and a decent recovery. He seems like an airborne aggressive type, I think.
- and are versatile ones that bring the power of of a multipurpose bow that can become two short blades all in one. Very unique, they also make use of different weapons in a few of their moves. It's also to note that besides the Links and Robins, the Pits are one of the few sword users that can camp a bit, but are the only ones that have a reflector.
- uses the energy sword known as the Monado. It may not sound as exciting until you start making use of the Monado arts to alter your stats in different ways. This mechanic alone opens up the door to having different strategies in a way.
- um... I don't really wanna say much about him for multiple reasons. All I can say is that he feels kinda bland on his own, though his saving grace for decent uniqueness is his Limit mechanic.
-I have no knowledge about Mii Swordfighter... I'm sorry.

So as I said in my previous post I think, I said my main problem with the sword users mostly come from the Fire Emblem reps. All of them have swords, two are echoes, and we have 7 characters from that franchise, and makes up almost half the primary sword users. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the "Everyone is here" thing, we wouldn't have that many characters (this goes for the Links too actually).

As for other arguments, while it's true that some swords definitely are on the higher up on tiers, but they're never the greatest threat, with the exception of Brawl Meta Knight, though Melee Marth was close, and Brawl Marth was up there a bit too, and no comments needed about s4 Cloud... *mumble mumble* As for Ultimate, there isn't too much to say yet for sword users IMO as the game is still young. When the meta develops and when the game grows older, we'll see if a few swords are among the ranks of the higher ups and which ones for what reasons.

In the end, most of the stigma against sword users honestly likely comes from Fire Emblem itself, where all playable characters have swords (two are echoes), their first assist trophy uses a sword (or is a Katana, Lyn?), and their new item is a sword... despite the franchise having characters that have different weapons, and let's not forget some of the characters got in to promote a Fire Emblem game in the past too. I do admit having 3 Links is also questionable... and it's all because of "Everyone is here" is the thing in this game (I could see Young Link getting the cut if that wasn't the case).
I just hope we can settle the conflict, and part of me thinks the thread is pretty much done in general. However, if I've forgotten a major sword character or have some information wrong, I apologize, and hope I can correct myself.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Some sword fighters like and have something about them that makes fairly unique from the other sword fighters, but it's not a lot in the grand scheme of things. Let me quickly recap who the sword users are.


What's unique about them from each other? As I said, besides a small few, nearly nothing is unique about them. , , and are way too similar for obvious reasons. While and can turn their swords into a bow, their standard moves behave too similar to the rest. , , and their echo fighters are nearly identical to each other, and shares a lot of attributes with . Literally the only sword fighters that are even remotely unique from the rest are , , , , and . It's pretty easy to see why the community hates them.

 

[Raftina]

What's unique about them from each other? As I said, besides a small few, nearly nothing is unique about them. , , and are way too similar for obvious reasons. While and can turn their swords into a bow, their standard moves behave too similar to the rest. , , and their echo fighters are nearly identical to each other, and shares a lot of attributes with . Literally the only sword fighters that are even remotely unique from the rest are , , , , and . It's pretty easy to see why the community hates them.

This is not a good way to count the number of unique experiences.

What you are saying is essentially, "If there exists character B who is similar to character A, then neither A nor B is unique from the rest." While this is semantically defensible, it is not a good way to describe how we count unique experiences. We can see the problem with the following statement.

, , and are way too similar for obvious reasons. Therefore, none of them is unique from the rest of the Smash roster. We can defend this semantically: Take , and the rest of the roster includes and , from whom is not distinct. Therefore, is not unique from the rest of the roster. But of course, this is not how we think of unique experiences: We group them into the space animals or the Fox clones. In other words, we count the number of unique groups rather than the number of unique individuals. The same should apply to swordsmen.

In your post, you identified 7 unique groups:








This is 7 groups, or 7 unique experiences, not 5.

 

[Opossum]

Some sword fighters like and have something about them that makes fairly unique from the other sword fighters, but it's not a lot in the grand scheme of things. Let me quickly recap who the sword users are.


What's unique about them from each other? As I said, besides a small few, nearly nothing is unique about them. , , and are way too similar for obvious reasons. While and can turn their swords into a bow, their standard moves behave too similar to the rest. , , and their echo fighters are nearly identical to each other, and shares a lot of attributes with . Literally the only sword fighters that are even remotely unique from the rest are , , , , and . It's pretty easy to see why the community hates them.

Ike shares literally one move with Chrom, and even then Soaring Slash isn't a one-to-one copy of Aether. Only other shared things are down smash and Counter, which are shared among much of the cast, never mind sword users.

That and Roy is absolutely not "nearly identical" to Marth anymore. About half of his moves are very different, with the bulk of the similarities being his non-Dair aerials.

 

[shyguywiki]

I've never understood why this community has such a dis-taste for characters that wield-swords. It just seems ridiculous to me. Why all the hate? What's wrong with characters the have swords as a weapon?

I can't speak for the entire community, but i personally hate the FE sword wielders because every one of them seems to have similar moves or the same moves. I have no problem with link or cloud, because they have relatively unique movesets. even Mii Swordfighter. It just doesnt seem unique.

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

Because they're broken as ****. Have you seen tier lists? Most sword characters are in the top tiers. They've got ridiculous range, ridiculous power and are easy to play. Might as well call this game sword ultimate.

This. This exactly. Other than the OG game, swords are always top tier. In Melee, Marth. In Brawl Meta Knight. In 4, Clod. This one is shaping up to still be either Clod or Ike (but it's early)

On top of this, when there's a huge number of them, the potential for one of them to be top tier increases exponentially. I also get annoyed when people praise the pros like Leffen, Zero and M2K and say they have the most "skill" and are the best at this game, but play arguably the most noob-friendly characters. Go look at Zero's youtube. All furries and sword characters. No wonder the online is flooded with Wolf, Ganons and Clods. So depressing with such a huge roster.

HEY ATTENTION PROS: You wanna impress me? Win Evo or Genesis with Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Duck-Hunt or Wii Fit Trainer. Or Bowser Jr.

EDIT: I respect Gluttony the most for this reason, Wario is a pretty multi-layered character and not easy to pick up, but kills fairly early and I suspect if it wasn't for his kill potential, probably would never top a tourney. But, it would be unfair to handicap the entire community and say they can't choose early kill characters.

Pros get really good at the really easy characters. That's the key to success. And why I'll never be a pro. Cuz I like fun characters. Not tough frowny boys with swords and catch phrases.

 

[Deleted member]

This. This exactly. Other than the OG game, swords are always top tier. In Melee, Marth. In Brawl Meta Knight. In 4, Clod. This one is shaping up to still be either Clod or Ike (but it's early)

On top of this, when there's a huge number of them, the potential for one of them to be top tier increases exponentially. I also get annoyed when people praise the pros like Leffen, Zero and M2K and say they have the most "skill" and are the best at this game, but play arguably the most noob-friendly characters. Go look at Zero's youtube. All furries and sword characters. No wonder the online is flooded with Wolf, Ganons and Clods. So depressing with such a huge roster.

HEY ATTENTION PROS: You wanna impress me? Win Evo or Genesis with Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Duck-Hunt or Wii Fit Trainer. Or Bowser Jr.

EDIT: I respect Gluttony the most for this reason, Wario is a pretty multi-layered character and not easy to pick up, but kills fairly early and I suspect if it wasn't for his kill potential, probably would never top a tourney. But, it would be unfair to handicap the entire community and say they can't choose early kill characters.

Pros get really good at the really easy characters. That's the key to success. And why I'll never be a pro. Cuz I like fun characters. Not tough frowny boys with swords and catch phrases.

lmao this really does read like something ltg would say

 

[Mogisthelioma]

This. This exactly. Other than the OG game, swords are always top tier. In Melee, Marth. In Brawl Meta Knight. In 4, Clod. This one is shaping up to still be either Clod or Ike (but it's early)

On top of this, when there's a huge number of them, the potential for one of them to be top tier increases exponentially. I also get annoyed when people praise the pros like Leffen, Zero and M2K and say they have the most "skill" and are the best at this game, but play arguably the most noob-friendly characters. Go look at Zero's youtube. All furries and sword characters. No wonder the online is flooded with Wolf, Ganons and Clods. So depressing with such a huge roster.

HEY ATTENTION PROS: You wanna impress me? Win Evo or Genesis with Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Duck-Hunt or Wii Fit Trainer. Or Bowser Jr.

EDIT: I respect Gluttony the most for this reason, Wario is a pretty multi-layered character and not easy to pick up, but kills fairly early and I suspect if it wasn't for his kill potential, probably would never top a tourney. But, it would be unfair to handicap the entire community and say they can't choose early kill characters.

Pros get really good at the really easy characters. That's the key to success. And why I'll never be a pro. Cuz I like fun characters. Not tough frowny boys with swords and catch phrases.

Sorry, that's not how it works. Obviously the roster is far from balanced, and swordies will forever and always be at a stupid advantage over everyone else, but that's not why some people hate them. If you truly look at pros, they're elite with every or almost every fighter, meaning they play excellent as fighters such as Little Mac or R.O.B.. ZeRo's channel features a variety of characters on it, not just swordies. And your criticism of "furries" makes no sense, because they're not what were talking about and thus can't be attributed toward your claim.

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

Sorry, that's not how it works. Obviously the roster is far from balanced, and swordies will forever and always be at a stupid advantage over everyone else, but that's not why some people hate them. If you truly look at pros, they're elite with every or almost every fighter, meaning they play excellent as fighters such as Little Mac or R.O.B.. ZeRo's channel features a variety of characters on it, not just swordies. And your criticism of "furries" makes no sense, because they're not what were talking about and thus can't be attributed toward your claim.

Dude, normally I won't argue for the sake of arguing, but you're just wrong on this one. Look at Zero's channel since the launch of Ultimate. Here's the characters he's covered:

1. Pichu
2. Link
3. Ganondorf (You can argue the sword point, but I say he has one and is easy meaning kills in four smashes)
4. Young Link
5. Roy
6. Chrom
7. King K. Rool
8. Sonic
9. Diddy
10. Cloud
11. Ike
12. Marth
13. Lucina
14. Wolf

There is one video on Captain Falcon. ONE. All the rest are as I said, so sorry, I forgot Cap Falcon. And NONE are mid-low tier.

P.S. I love furries, so no judgment. But I still think if pros are so elite with low tiers, they should just stomp all over us with them. Right?

 

[Idon]

Dude, normally I won't argue for the sake of arguing, but you're just wrong on this one. Look at Zero's channel since the launch of Ultimate. Here's the characters he's covered:

1. Pichu
2. Link
3. Ganondorf (You can argue the sword point, but I say he has one and is easy meaning kills in four smashes)
4. Young Link
5. Roy
6. Chrom
7. King K. Rool
8. Sonic
9. Diddy
10. Cloud
11. Ike
12. Marth
13. Lucina
14. Wolf

There is one video on Captain Falcon. ONE. All the rest are as I said, so sorry, I forgot Cap Falcon. And NONE are mid-low tier.

P.S. I love furries, so no judgment.

That's not a competitive tier list.
They're beginner guides or highlights from his stream.

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

That's not a competitive tier list.
They're beginner guides or highlights from his stream.

I wasn't saying it was.

 

[Idon]

I wasn't saying it was.

But then there's no value to that list then.
It doesn't say anything about their competitive standing which was your entire point.

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

Not it wasn't. Let me reiterate. The topic is: Why is there a stigma against sword users in Smash?
My personal opinion on this is above, Im not going to retype it. but let me reiterate that I don't think any character is better objectively, I think pros set the trends.

Example:
1. Zero/Leffen/etc makes video playing as "x" character crushing the competition.
2. Next day, online is swarmed with "x" character, just like a celebrity starts wearing a no-name brand on the red carpet, everyone sees it and then that company inflates the price of said brand due to the demand.
3. Does this make this character broken or better? No, actually I personally think it weakens those who don't play as them. See K.Rool. He's so predictable and one of my most anticipated matchups now. Also see Chrom. Inklings hype however, solid when played competently.
4. Sword characters simply are easy and Zero's youtube channel is littered with them and as the self-proclaimed "Best player in the world" (whether he is or isn't, really doesn't matter) wouldn't it be interesting to play as say... MARIO???? (Cue the shock and awe)

TL;DR: I don't even think tiers are real, I think it's a fashion trend set by high level players, I just think pros should explore lower-tiers and show how skilled they are with even the so-called worst characters.

P.S. I notice you like swords.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I mean.... every character has disjoints and every character should do it.

It's just more obvious with sword characters but its always there.

The net benefit is largely the same. You hit the opponent while staying safe.

It's annoying how they try to balance sword users by lacking projectiles but the way they balance things is the reason why Robin is almost unplayable. They can kind of hit you being king of safe....but......please help them. I miss Robin being somewhat decent.

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

It's annoying how they try to balance sword users by lacking projectiles but the way they balance things is the reason why Robin is almost unplayable. They can kind of hit you being king of safe....but......please help them. I miss Robin being somewhat decent.

I think of all the FEs I am most interested in Robin. He/she? (Don't know the franchise) probably has a really high skill ceiling and lacks a user friendly interface but can be lethal in skilled hands.

 

[Roberk]

Interesting topic, I feel like most of the stuff I'd say has been addressed, but I still have some comments.

I don't feel like swordfighters being "anime" (side note: "anime" in Smash is tame AF compared to the actual thing) and "similarly designed" (medieval) should be a bad thing, rather, it should be a good thing. The themes of realism and in LoZ/FE's case, medieval settings and designs balance against the cartoonish, sci-fi, or downright abstract aesthetics of other Smash fighters/franchises. It gives the game variety in aesthetic and allows it to appeal to as many people with different interests as possible.

Also, if you dig past the surface level, most swordfighters can be pretty worthwhile as characters. For example with FE, I think it's pretty cool a bunch of teenagers can amass armies of individuals from differing nationalities and races than themselves, and bear the burden of leading an entire country in a war.

It all boils down to personal preferences, just let people like what they like and you can like what you like. I don't see why it causes that much of a problem when the game has over 73 characters, dozens of franchises with their own styles, and tons of movesets to play with.

 

[XxDiCaprioxX]

Unfortunately marth doesnt speak for all sword characters. Even if he is something special hes a part of an oversaturated playstyle. Almost every smash match ive had in this game there are always sword users and id be lucky to get a match with less than 2. They , like mii fighters, just kill my vibe for this game.

Yo what about Corrin. He not only relies on Sword, like his Side B is a Down-Forward Lance that can also pin the Ground and have a Follow up Kick. His Smash sidewards is a Lance with a Sweet Spot at the Tip. Also while charging his Sword has a Hitbox. He has a Projectile with a Fang Bite after it is shot, which is pretty unique among the Roster. Also his Up B is an ascension but not with Sword, it is as a Dragon with a constant Hitbox instead of one small for 1 Second. The Problem is, you can always say all the others are not that creative, because if more Characters have the same Abilities, it wont be unique anymore.

 

[RepStar]

Yo what about Corrin. He not only relies on Sword, like his Side B is a Down-Forward Lance that can also pin the Ground and have a Follow up Kick. His Smash sidewards is a Lance with a Sweet Spot at the Tip. Also while charging his Sword has a Hitbox. He has a Projectile with a Fang Bite after it is shot, which is pretty unique among the Roster. Also his Up B is an ascension but not with Sword, it is as a Dragon with a constant Hitbox instead of one small for 1 Second. The Problem is, you can always say all the others are not that creative, because if more Characters have the same Abilities, it wont be unique anymore.

I thought that character was a girl. Yea sure, that characters unique. Still too many swords though and id rather fight characters from the 64-brawl era anyday. Imo brawl had the best type of roster. It wasnt too many of anything, not even clones. Ultimate has an infestation of projectiles and swords.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

A lot of sword characters are just ways of Nintendo promoting the latest Fire Emblem games so they feel very "samey".

Also, I'm not sure if someone is trolling by saying sword characters are always top tier. That doesn't really make sense...and in Melee the best character by far was Fox followed by Falco. Marth is the only real sword character that was tournament viable (unless we include Ice Climbers, who are only viable because of a grabbing exploit not because of their disjointed hitbox) - meanwhile Roy and Link are awful in that game.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Anyone who calls IC's and Dedede "sword wielders" clearly care more about hitboxes and frame data than the actual aesthetic and character design. They're hammers. Hammers always have weak hitboxes on the hilt and strong ones on the head. They're almost always a bit slower but have meatier hitboxes. That alone separates them from most swords in the game. But other than that....how can you honestly lump a giant hammer made of jet parts with a metal blade on an ornate hilt. Those are two completely different things.

 

[Roberk]

Anyone who calls IC's and Dedede "sword wielders" clearly care more about hitboxes and frame data than the actual aesthetic and character design. They're hammers. Hammers always have weak hitboxes on the hilt and strong ones on the head. They're almost always a bit slower but have meatier hitboxes. That alone separates them from most swords in the game. But other than that....how can you honestly lump a giant hammer made of jet parts with a metal blade on an ornate hilt. Those are two completely different things.

Wouldn't the minute mechanical differences between mallets and swords being enough to separate them mean that the minute mechanical differences between sword characters are enough to separate the clones as well? Guess there's not a problem with a ton of swordies then. /s

Bottom line is that they have disjointed hitboxes almost primarily made up of swinging motions. I see a lot of similarities between Dedede's and Ice Climbers' Smash attacks with Ike's Smash attacks, standard Marth fair for Dedede and Ice Climbers, dairs that resemble Ike's dair, etc. If people are going to complain about disjointed hitboxes and samey moves and group characters off of that, then I'd say that Dedede and Ice Climbers qualify for that group just as much as "sword users".

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Anyone who calls IC's and Dedede "sword wielders" clearly care more about hitboxes and frame data than the actual aesthetic and character design. They're hammers. Hammers always have weak hitboxes on the hilt and strong ones on the head. They're almost always a bit slower but have meatier hitboxes. That alone separates them from most swords in the game. But other than that....how can you honestly lump a giant hammer made of jet parts with a metal blade on an ornate hilt. Those are two completely different things.

Because that's just an aesthetic...

Sword wielders is just a name for characters with long disjointed hit boxes - if we are talking about sword wielders in a gaming sense then their aesthetics don't matter.

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

A lot of sword characters are just ways of Nintendo promoting the latest Fire Emblem games so they feel very "samey".

Also, I'm not sure if someone is trolling by saying sword characters are always top tier. That doesn't really make sense...and in Melee the best character by far was Fox followed by Falco. Marth is the only real sword character that was tournament viable (unless we include Ice Climbers, who are only viable because of a grabbing exploit not because of their disjointed hitbox) - meanwhile Roy and Link are awful in that game.

So you agree with the exception of 64... a sword user or multiple sword users has been top tier? How is this trolling then?
64: Fox (point for you)
Melee: Marth was a top tier
Brawl: Meta Knight
4: Cloud
Ultimate: Still early...but Fire Emblem has got a hell of a chance with the comp scene and link and yink aren't too shabby either and Cloud too.... and....yea....

Because that's just an aesthetic...

Sword wielders is just a name for characters with long disjointed hit boxes - if we are talking about sword wielders in a gaming sense then their aesthetics don't matter.

Yup. This. Marth could literally be holding a can of beans and it wouldn't matter. Id still say he uses a sword and has an advantage.

 

[Roberk]

So you agree with the exception of 64... a sword user or multiple sword users has been top tier? How is this trolling then?
64: Fox (point for you)
Melee: Marth was a top tier
Brawl: Meta Knight
4: Cloud
Ultimate: Still early...but Fire Emblem has got a hell of a chance with the comp scene and link and yink aren't too shabby either and Cloud too.... and....yea....

Just wondering about this argument, why is it a problem that sword users can be top-tier? In the past, it's been at most just one sword character along with other characters/movesets that are top-tier. I can see where gameplay and aesthetic issues with swordies come from but complaining about one character/archetype being top-tier amongst many other top-tiers just seems like degrading sword-users for the sake of degrading sword-users. They don't bloat or oppress high-level play and even if they did it only affects the top 0.1% of players.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

So you agree with the exception of 64... a sword user or multiple sword users has been top tier? How is this trolling then?
64: Fox (point for you)
Melee: Marth was a top tier
Brawl: Meta Knight
4: Cloud
Ultimate: Still early...but Fire Emblem has got a hell of a chance with the comp scene and link and yink aren't too shabby either and Cloud too.... and....yea....


Yup. This. Marth could literally be holding a can of beans and it wouldn't matter. Id still say he uses a sword and has an advantage.

Well, first - Fox wasn't widely seen as the best character in Smash 64 that would be Pikachu. To my knowledge, Fox was never in serious discussion for best character in Smash 64.

Marth isn't top tier in Melee. There is only one top tier, that is Fox. Yes, Marth is in the next tier - he is at the bottom of it.

So if we're using an argument that Sword users are inherently broken ti is a pretty awful argument because Marth is the worst character in the 2nd tier, and the next best sword user is Young Link who is not a real tournament viable main.

Even if we were to chalk Fox being the lone top tier to semantics (it's not, he's on that tier for a reason, and if Falco was in his tier then it would further bolster the point) - it is obvious that having a long disjointed hitbox in itself is not broken, Marth is a great character in Melee because he has many good attributes. Meanwhile, Roy, who is Marth's echo is one of the worst characters in the game - if what people were arguing were true, than Roy at the very least would be tournament viable.



As for Smash Ultimate - if it were a relatively balanced game then it should have a sword character in the top tier. There are over 10 Sword characters on the roster.

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

Well, first - Fox wasn't widely seen as the best character in Smash 64 that would be Pikachu. To my knowledge, Fox was never in serious discussion for best character in Smash 64.

Marth isn't top tier in Melee. There is only one top tier, that is Fox. Yes, Marth is in the next tier - he is at the bottom of it.

So if we're using an argument that Sword users are inherently broken ti is a pretty awful argument because Marth is the worst character in the 2nd tier, and the next best sword user is Young Link who is not a real tournament viable main.

Even if we were to chalk Fox being the lone top tier to semantics (it's not, he's on that tier for a reason, and if Falco was in his tier then it would further bolster the point) - it is obvious that having a long disjointed hitbox in itself is not broken, Marth is a great character in Melee because he has many good attributes. Meanwhile, Roy, who is Marth's echo is one of the worst characters in the game - if what people were arguing were true, than Roy at the very least would be tournament viable.



As for Smash Ultimate - if it were a relatively balanced game then it should have a sword character in the top tier. There are over 10 Sword characters on the roster.

OK, 64 aside, both because I never competitively played it and we both agree Link was the only sword user and he was garbage... Marth in melee not being "top tier" is you're reference to the final widely accepted tier structure of the game, right? Which is based off of tournament results and who is played most.

Now, not to derail the conversation here, but this brings up my main issue with tiers to begin with (I don't actually think characters are objectively better, easier to play at launch yes, but I think player skill determines who wins. So tiers are really just trending reports of who's playing the best, not who IS undeniably the best. How else could Sinji's Pac-Man or Raito's Duck Hunt exist?) Long story short, Marth was a slightly easier skill-wise than Fox and Falco to pick up because of their inherent way of how they worked with the game engine, wave dashing and L-canceling, etc. But the players found tech in Fox and Falco and rose Fox and Falco above Marth.

Either way, I think ever since the widespreaded-ness of swords in SSB, it has been made very clear that there is a starting advantage to having one as a character, but not impossible for labbing and research to be done to out-tech them in the case with Zero and Diddy and players like Leffen who was a beast with Fox and put in hours of work to beat people like M2K with Marth.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I'm not sure what you mean - Fox isn't better than Marth becaues of 20 years of Melee tournament results, Fox is better than Marth because his stats are literally better - the only advantage Marth has is that he has better range, and better range isn't enough to make a character better than another (this is evident and ultimately the point I am challenging because if people think sword characters have an inherit advantage than they are objectively wrong as wrong as saying a heavy character or fast character or projectile character has inherit advantage, they have a particular advantage).

Not sure how long you have been playing Smash Bros for, but even before people knew about wavedashing and stuff Fox was pretty clearly better than Marth, as were several other characters.


I went back and looked at the older tier list and it's even worse than I thought.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(NTSC)


Your argument is more along the lines of who is better to pick up and play at the early stages of the game - it's still fox. Unsurprisingly, Sheik was the best character by the time the first tier list came out, because she is also very easy to pick up and play.

The second tier list puts Peach above Marth (who is a great character without any tech skill).

If anything the advent of tech like the Ken Combo is what made Marth become top tier for a brief amount of time. It didn't take decades of labing and tournament results for Fox and Falco to surpass Marth, they were almost always better - there was a time in 2003 when Marth was ranked higher and one has to take into account that in the mid 2000s the best player in the world during this stretch was a Marth main that skewed results.

I mean you're talking about Leffen here - Leffen came WAY later. Fox was better than Marth before Leffen even knew what Melee was.





There is no starting advantage, again, having a sword in itself means nothing. This is even true in Smash 4 - the original top tier in Smash 4 had no sword users. In fact the highest ranked sword user in Smash 4 was Metaknight at 10th place - Cloud was not top tier until after Bayonetta patch which was the final patch. (the first tier list was released the same time Bayonetta was).


Brawl is the only game where a guy with a sword (Metaknight) totally dominated the competition, and Brawl is also the least competitive and broken game - and quite frankly, Metaknight was straight up broken in many ways.





If anything it seems more like fast, pixie characters are "top tier" in every Smash bros game.


If we exclude Smash Ultimate because it's too early to tell then


Link - has been bad in every Smash bros game, and he has been in 4 of them

Young Link and Toon Link - both bad in every Smash bros game

Roy - Bad in every Smash Bros game

Ike - Has been bad in every Smash Bros game

Pit - Mediocre at best

That's 13 different chances a sword user could have been top tier - and not only were none of these guys top tier, they were all bad characters more or less.



Marth and Metaknight are consistently good or at the very least viable.

Between Marth and Metaknight - they were good in 5 chances, pretty much every game they were in (Metaknight was not top tier or high tier in Smash 4, but since he was broken in Brawl I suppose you can even it out). Albeit, only Brawl Meta Knight was ever seriously the best character - Marth was tournament viable in Brawl and Smash 4, and is obviously a very good character in Melee as well.

So how can one draw a conclusion that sword characters are inherently amazing? Literally, the majority of sword characters have been bad in every Smash game - and only two characters have been good in several games.



Within the context of Smash 4 only characters - Cloud was dominant through out Smash 4s meta - but Robin was awful through out his entire meta. Lucina and Corrin were solid characters, albeit Lucina was originally crappy. So among the four new sword users in Smash 4 - one was top tier, one was in a bad tier, two were tournament viable (but realistically the gap between S tier and B tier in Smash 4 was gigantic).



Anyway, I think it is pointless to debate who is a "good character" at this point. There are 70 characters and at a minimum 5 patches with 6 new characters coming in. Even without the new characters and patches, as you alluded to, it's impossible to tell who is really going to be dominant a year from now - much less 3.

 

[Great Potato]

For me it wasn't the swords I had a problem with but the overall FE representation. Every series here has their own fanbases and for someone who is a big Metroid and Donkey Kong Country fan it stung at the time to see those franchises that have been core parts of the series since the beginning stuck at two characters while Fire Emblem kept getting catered two and received their 6th, Corrin was the straw that broke the camels back and left a real sour taste in my mouth for me.

Come Smash Ultimate and we get Ridley as one of the first reveals, Chrom shows up in the next direct but he followed Simon and Richter who I thought was a great reveal, Dark Samus comes in immediately afterwards, and the presentation ends with K Rool. That's sort of the point where I felt my animosity towards FE fade away, so I guess a lot of it was fueled by a feeling of neglect towards what I wanted and FE soaking up the limelight it was easy to pin blame on them or if one looked at it in a broader sense it might be easy to pin blame on "anime swordsmen" as a whole. There might be Advanced Wars fans who feel they've been displaced by FE or Kirby fans who have been holding their breath the past two games for post-Sakurai era content only to see the sword characters get the lion's share of the love and I could see why that's upsetting because I've been there.

I also know there's fan from within those franchises who wish for more varied representation, a lot of Zelda franchises aren't entirely pleased that one of Nintendo's top franchises gets represented by a bunch of Links and a Captain Falcon derivative which isn't so much of a sword complaint, whereas FE fans might wish other weapons that appear in the franchise got some playtime. Combined with the above I think that builds towards a lot of what comes across as toxic feelings towards sword characters.

As far as gameplay goes I haven't had issue with them, possibly because Ridley has similar disjoints that make him hard to space out, the pure sword characters usually provide pretty fun fights. It's actually when they start deviating from swordsmanship like Robin or Link that the matches can risk getting a bit campy and less fun. I imagine there are characters or playstyles less equipped to deal with their spacing which could also create negative opinions towards them since they're pretty prevalent in the community.

Out of curiosity, what are your feelings on characters that have a similar playstyle to a Swordfighter, but don't use swords? For example, many Ridley players utilize his disjointed aerials the same way they would a sword user, and good spacing is a key component to playing Ridley (and the entire point of Skewer, too).

I feel like Ridley is given a pass on this for two primary reasons.

The first is his character is sort of a fusion between a sword and a heavyweight, but the latter is much more visibly apparent with him. He's a heavyweight, he's the biggest character in the game, he's got the command grab, and he has devastating heavy hits that can kill at very early percentages. When you play as Ridley you incorporate a lot of elements of the sword fighter using your disjoint advantage to poke from a safe distance but for someone who doesn't have a grasp on the character and is facing against him in the match it's probably much easier to lump him straight in the heavyweight category with Bowser because that's what he appears as.

The second reason is Ridley for a good while has had lot write him off as a trash character from early on and that perception still lingers on him for a lot of people, it feels like he's only recently started to garner more respect with his results, so people are less likely to view Ridley as much of a problem. When some of the traditional swordfighters are regarded as top tier it's easier to blame those character for being busted when one gives you trouble, whereas you probably won't get far trying to pretend Incineroar is the problem if you were to take a loss to him.

 

[Gryphon827]

Are all twenty-six thousand of your posts dismissive, worthless garbage?

Pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Because there are a lot of them, their playstyles are very similar to eachother, and many of their moves are either spammable, abusable, or hard to punish.

Slow and/or close-up fighters have a relatively large disadvantage to them.

Sometimes it doesn't even seem like you had a chance or you unfairly lost a stock.

And of course, everybody plays them. So you end up seeing the same 3 or 4 fighters over and over again

That being said, they are overcome-able. (does that count as a word?) It just takes a lot of spacing and foresight. Attack patterns, while somewhat easy to pull off, are also very predictable and getting the punish can be made easy by waiting for your chance. Sometimes playing the punish game isn't very fun, however; and for some characters, it seems like its their only shot. That's probably why they're so... disliked. I'm still learning Ultimate so take what i think with a grain of salt.

In other words... Similar to eachother, not fun to play against, very common to be matched with, and d i s j o i n t s

 

[NintendoParty]

IMO, there are two reasons:

1) There are too many swordies that are similar to one another. This is mainly a FE problem, but seriously, what is the big difference between marth, lucina, roy, chrom, etc. Yeah, they have some minor differences or tipper or not. But they are essentially all the same: character with sword and similar or identical attacks.

2) All their attacks are disjointed, so if it's spaced properly, they're safe on shield and they have priority over other attacks.

 

[osby]

IMO, there are two reasons:

1) There are too many swordies that are similar to one another. This is mainly a FE problem, but seriously, what is the big difference between marth, lucina, roy, chrom, etc. Yeah, they have some minor differences or tipper or not. But they are essentially all the same: character with sword and similar or identical attacks.

2) All their attacks are disjointed, so if it's spaced properly, they're safe on shield and they have priority over other attacks.

1. This applies to all all clones
2. ??? So Ivysaur is a swordie