Why does the Smash community have a stigma against sword-wielders?

[Opossum]

No, it's not off-topic. This thread is about why people hate anime swordsmen, thus I'm explaining how FE character design has permanently tainted character design in this series, elaborating on a more thought-out reason for disliking the characters than "they look gay." You, being the triple-A super veteran orange text VIP poster that you are, called my replies off-topic because you play Chrom and it made you upset.

I don't want Smash Bros. to devolve into fast cretins jumping and tapping A at one another, but that's what it is right now. If there wasn't money involved none of the professional players would have left Melee. That game was great by accident, apparently.

If you're not going to argue in good faith then I think we're done here.

 

[Sudz]

The future is nothing but fair swordsmen.

Can I make this my sig?

 

[ｐｓ＿]

Can I make this my sig?

Save it my friend, it's yours.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

If you're not going to argue in good faith then I think we're done here.

You tried to be witty, got owned and now you're running away. Epic dude, 500 IQ poster.

 

[Sean²]

Well I drafted this before the thread devolved. Stepped away for an hour and here we are. But here it is anyway.

Which ones do you feel have no personality? Well, besides Mii Swordfighter for obvious reasons.

Note: This is from an outsider who has never played some of these games. I can only judge them based on their Smash appearances and bits of knowledge I've picked up here and there. And maybe I exaggerated a bit when I said "no personality", I guess better terminology to use would have been "no personality in Smash"? Maybe just leaving it at "boring".

Marth, Lucina, Corrin, Roy seem boring to me. I guess Ike and Chrom can be a bit more interesting. Robin is okay with his slight arrogance in his victory animations. I figured some of them are due to them being the protagonist, and having to fit into a speaking protagonist role generally sticks you with some generalized heroic traits. I've also never played an FE game so there's that.

Cloud is fairly boring, but not sure how much better it would be if he spoke a language I understood. He was a fun character in FF7. I haven't played any of his more recent portrayals so I don't know what happened there. Meta Knight is a fairly interesting character, but he doesn't really play like a traditional swordfighter. So I tend to forget he has a sword.

I don't consider any of the Links as primarily sword characters due to their other tools being prevalent. However, I have played 3D Zelda games so their portrayal makes sense to me. Link is a silent protagonist who speaks through his expressions and actions. If I've never played or heard of a Zelda game, I'd probably think he's just a guy with deep pockets who screams a lot. So with this, I think already knowing the background of a character really helps how you view them. More on that later.

I'm just a big fan of characters that wear their heart on their sleeve, I guess. I know there are less emotive characters that DON'T use swords. Wii Fit Trainer, Samus, Miis...could maybe make an argument for a couple of the Pokemon, too, I guess, but they are more expressive in Smash than they are in any of the Pokemon games. It's just the "uninteresting" blanket seems to cover most swordfighters.

If there's a character in the game from a series I haven't touched, rather than a vibe of "Oh, you have to play their game to understand their character," I'd like a vibe of "I WANT to go play their series to get MORE of that character." I'm sure the FE guys are not at all one-dimensional in their home games. I can appreciate deep character development along the course of a game with the best of them. I just don't think their portrayal in Smash makes them seem very interesting. They just seem like "generic hero stereotypes with cool hair and armor". Combine that with how many of their attacks are very much the same kinds of sword swings, and you have the foundation of an uninteresting character. There's just too many cooks.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Virtually every character has some sort of disjointed fair because, as I said, this was the big design breakthrough back in Melee. I

That fact that you are blaming Melee for an element that fighting games have had since they were beat em ups is a bit concerning.

It's why Haggar has a pipe. Disjointed attacks work well.

 

[lucasla]

I usually dont play with them too much, but I think they are all too similar in their look and even in their moveset.

 

[Quillion]

You will never again see a character as complicated as Melee Fox/Falco, who required you to bash your hands with a hammer just to get the right inputs. The future is nothing but fair swordsmen.

Bro, after playing Ultimate Fox, I never want to play Melee Fox again. His moveset is still speedy and feels more functional without requiring all that jank.

I'm speaking purely from an enjoyment standpoint, not competitive standpoint.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

Bro, after playing Ultimate Fox, I never want to play Melee Fox again. His moveset is still speedy and feels more functional without requiring all that jank.

I'm speaking purely from an enjoyment standpoint, not competitive standpoint.

You've played Melee Fox like that orange text guy had a girlfriend: didn't happen.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You've played Melee Fox like that orange text guy had a girlfriend: didn't happen.

Sir, at this point you're just making yourself look like a jerk.

I suggest just leaving the thread. You aren't adding anything anymore.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

Sir, at this point you're just making yourself look like a jerk.

I suggest just leaving the thread. You aren't adding anything anymore.

If the mod is going to penalize me for providing actual input, at the beck and call of some forum veteran whose only intimacy in life is shared with a tube sock, then I honestly don't care. I'll use racial epithets if I want to. If I get banned I'll be back in five minutes with a new account. Who cares? This forum is worthless.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'll use racial epithets if I want to

...

Sir, your juvenile insults aside, that is something you probably should never do.

Like, using racial slurs has no benefit other then hurting people. What's the point of it?

 

[ｐｓ＿]

...

Sir, your juvenile insults aside, that is something you probably should never do.

Like, using racial slurs has no benefit other then hurting people. What's the point of it?

"Sir", you can

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Me watching this convo go down

"Wow, looks like this person's just flaming. Wondering What Opossum has to say"

buckaroo.

Dies laughing

why people hate anime swordsmen

Can you point to me where in the opening stipulation of this thread it was mentioned that it was about "anime swordsmen" and not just swordsmen in general?

Also what the hell is up with the image you posted above.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The guy took the bait and I tried to give him an out.

Oof



Let's just move on.

Roy should be considered a unique (at least Wolf or Isabelle tier) character due to all his normals. Change my mind.

 

[Opossum]

The guy took the bait and I tried to give him an out.

Oof



Let's just move on.

Roy should be considered a unique (at least Wolf or Isabelle tier) character due to all his normals. Change my mind.

I'd say Wolf is a bit higher on the uniqueness scale, personally, but in general I agree.

Me watching this convo go down

"Wow, looks like this person's just flaming. Wondering What Opossum has to say"

Dies laughing

Can you point to me where in the opening stipulation of this thread it was mentioned that it was about "anime swordsmen" and not just swordsmen in general?

Also what the hell is up with the image you posted above.

It's not really worth your time. If he's just gonna post gore then just report him, I say,
But thanks lol.

 

[MetaWeegee]

Who cares? This forum is worthless.

...So why are you posting on it, then?

 

[Sean²]

Roy should be considered a unique (at least Wolf or Isabelle tier) character due to all his normals. Change my mind.

Roy's normals are still more derivative of Marth's than Wolf of Fox and Isabelle of Villager, AND his specials have not changed drastically since Melee, where he was an actual clone. Side B is the key. Wolf Flash and Isabelle's fishing rod make them more distinct. Roy still has his version of Dancing Blade.

 

[Opossum]

Roy's normals are still more derivative of Marth's than Wolf of Fox and Isabelle of Villager, AND his specials have not changed drastically since Melee, where he was an actual clone. Side B is the key. Wolf Flash and Isabelle's fishing rod make them more distinct. Roy still has his version of Dancing Blade.

But even then, Blazer and Flare Blade are incredibly different from Dolphin Slash and Shield Breaker in pretty much every sense.

 

[MetaWeegee]

Roy's normals are still more derivative of Marth's than Wolf of Fox and Isabelle of Villager, AND his specials have not changed drastically since Melee, where he was an actual clone. Side B is the key. Wolf Flash and Isabelle's fishing rod make them more distinct. Roy still has his version of Dancing Blade.

Agreed, Roy's pretty unique, but differences wise, he's more like Falco or Ganondorf than Wolf (who I'd say isn't even a semi)

 

[Dee Dude]

Look, I just think Smash handles them poorly.
Out of all the 16 wielders (not counting who only uses it in smashes)

-3 of them are Links.
-7 of them are FE characters with 3 of them being rehashed off Marth aesthetic wise
-3 of them are Echoes
-13 of them are “anime styled” with 3 being cartoony
-6 of them were newcomers in Smash 4 which solidfied the infamous argument and is mostly the blame for it.

Needless to say, the variety and diversity in Swordfighters is pretty abysmal to the point where only so few of them actually stand out without being a Link variant/echo/FE character.

So yeah, it’s not valid argument and there’s no reason to worry about them in a roster of 70+ fighters but I can’t deny that Smash has given swords a bad reputation otherwise.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

-6 of them were newcomers in Smash 4 which solidfied the infamous argument and is mostly the blame for it.

It should be noted that Roy was also brought back from Melee through DLC which only added to the chaos.

 

[Sean²]

But even then, Blazer and Flare Blade are incredibly different from Dolphin Slash and Shield Breaker in pretty much every sense.

You’re absolutely correct. They were different in Melee, too. Since then they’ve changed shield breaker to a stab motion, Roy kept the old behind-the-back charge animation. His up B is still a general upward sword slash though. He's actually closer to his Melee iteration than even Marth is any more. But you can't deny that his tilts and smashes, and 2.5 of his B moves are still pretty similar to Marth. I was only saying that the other characters mentioned are a bit less derivative than Roy.

 

[T-Donor66]

Because people are completely oblivious to the different ideas and playstyles they bring to the table, and can’t think any further than “anime sword man take up precious character slot”

 

[Opossum]

You’re absolutely correct. They were different in Melee, too. Since then they’ve changed shield breaker to a stab motion, Roy kept the old behind-the-back charge animation. His up B is still a general upward sword slash though. He's actually closer to his Melee iteration than even Marth is any more. But you can't deny that his tilts and smashes, and 2.5 of his B moves are still pretty similar to Marth. I was only saying that the other characters mentioned are a bit less derivative than Roy.

I would argue their up tilt and side tilt are really different, too. With Marth, his up tilt is a reliable anti-air that can hit behind him as well, while Roy's takes not only a much different animation, but is less useful as an anti-air and more useful as a combo starter (well, it is for Chrom, at least, but I'm lumping him in here because of the echo fighter thing). Likewise, the side tilts hit in completely different ways. To use Chrom over Roy as an example again since I main him and secondary Marth, Chrom/Roy's is a chopping motion that can even hit below platforms while Marth's is much more of a horizontal slash that comes upwards slightly.

Their jabs are also incredibly different, with Chrom and Roy's being a single hit strike coming up from the side, while Marth's and Lucina's is a two strike move.
The fact that Roy and Chrom have a multihit up smash is also significantly different from Marth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's pretty much the same difference as between Fox and Wolf's up specials (Fox has fire and a single hit, Wolf has no fire and is multihit) as well as Ness and Lucas's PK Fire and PK Thunder. If those differences count, I feel as though the differences with the up smashes should count as well. In addition, the execution of the forward smash is much different. Marth and Lucina do an overhead forward strike landing firmly on the ground in front of them, stance far apart. Meanwhile, Roy and Chrom take a more wild approach and swing their swords into their foe in a more horizontal fashion without making impact with the ground, making them fundamentally different moves.

Their down airs are also very different. Marth and Lucina do a parabolic arc beneath their feet while Roy and Chrom slam their swords straight downward.

The fundamentally different moves are:
Neutral Special (Flare Blade vs Shield Breaker)
Up Special (Blazer for Roy and Soaring Slash for Chrom vs Dolphin Slash)
Jab
Forward Tilt
Up Tilt
Up Smash
Forward Smash
Down Aerial

The fundamentally similar moves are:
Side Special (Double-Edged Dance vs Dancing Blade)
Down Special (lol Counter)
Down Tilt
Down Smash
Neutral Aerial
Forward Aerial (though the stance they take is slightly different)
Back Aerial
Up Aerial

Somewhere in the middle:
Dash Attack (the difference here is really subtle but Marth slashes outward while Roy slashes inward, impacting the hitbox a tad)
Final Smash (both are Critical Hit, but are executed much differently, as Roy's is based off his Binding Blade one where he doesn't dash forward and has a hitbox on the wind-up. Of note, Chrom has a completely different Final Smash with Awakening Aether, while Lucina just has Marth's Critical Hit).

It's about an even split between moves kept from Marth (and Lucina) and moves unique to Roy (and Chrom), IMO. The similarities are most notable in their aerials.

 

[R O F L]

Ok, I just read the whole thread..... What are we even discussing? This thread seems like a big mess.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Ok, I just read the whole thread..... What are we even discussing? This thread seems like a big mess.

It's turned from people discussing the aesthetic of sword wielders to a debate if whether or not Roy is a clone of Marth anymore. Because Fire Emblem can never stay out of a thread.

 

[Oddball]

Roy is just Marth except on fire... wait no. That makes him sound too interesting.

It's turned from people discussing the aesthetic of sword wielders to a debate if whether or not Roy is a clone of Marth anymore. Because Fire Emblem can never stay out of a thread.

The whole topic is about Fire Emblem. This was made with the statement that people are aginast sword users in Smash. They aren't. The complaints you hear about Cloud, the Links, Metaknight, and Mii Swordsman rarely boil down to "they're just another sword guy".

People don't have a problem with "just another sowrd guy" they have problems with "generic looking anime knight guy that uses a sword the same way all the other generic anime knight guys use a sword."

People will argue that there are some slight differences between characters. This one hurts you more with the tip of the sword. This one hurts you more with the base of the sword. This one's up attack is slightly slower and this one's up attack has more of an arc... they're still similiar enough to lump them altogether.

Just because a character isn't TECHINCALLY as clone or an Echo doesn't mean they don't feel much the same as others do.

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

Why should swords be limited in the first place, never mind brought down to three or four?

Because FE is relatively new when compared to characters that never seen the light of day since the 80s on the Nintendo roster. Where are THESE characters:
1. Toad
2. Wart
3. DK Jr.
4. Candy Kong
5. Kranky Kong
6. Funky Kong
7. What's his name from Metroid Prime 3, Other M and Fed Force
8. More Zelda Characters to even list
9. Guys from Contra (Do they have names???)
10. Arthur from Ghost/Ghouls and Goblins
11. The Battletoads
12. And waaaaay more

None of these guys use swords except Arthur. So do him last and I'd be fine. Why did we get 90s and 2000s games' characters before all these classics? Seriously, anyone know?

 

[Opossum]

Because FE is relatively new when compared to characters that never seen the light of day since the 80s on the Nintendo roster. Where are THESE characters:
1. Toad
2. Wart
3. DK Jr.
4. Candy Kong
5. Kranky Kong
6. Funky Kong
7. What's his name from Metroid Prime 3, Other M and Fed Force
8. More Zelda Characters to even list
9. Guys from Contra (Do they have names???)
10. Arthur from Ghost/Ghouls and Goblins
11. The Battletoads
12. And waaaaay more

None of these guys use swords except Arthur. So do him last and I'd be fine. Why did we get 90s and 2000s games' characters before all these classics? Seriously, anyone know?

You do realize a good chunk of the characters you named came out well after Fire Emblem debuted, right? This post is pretty baffling.

 

[Sabertooth]

OK, I was wrong about the sword lord thing. I was thinking of something else.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Because FE is relatively new when compared to characters that never seen the light of day since the 80s on the Nintendo roster. Where are THESE characters:
1. Toad
2. Wart
3. DK Jr.
4. Candy Kong
5. Kranky Kong
6. Funky Kong
7. What's his name from Metroid Prime 3, Other M and Fed Force
8. More Zelda Characters to even list
9. Guys from Contra (Do they have names???)
10. Arthur from Ghost/Ghouls and Goblins
11. The Battletoads
12. And waaaaay more
None of these guys use swords except Arthur. So do him last and I'd be fine. Why did we get 90s and 2000s games' characters before all these classics? Seriously, anyone know?

Lmfao

7. Doesn't exist. You are supporting a character that doesn't exist.

 

[BloodyThumbsDown]

As someone who mostly mains sword characters, I'll keep it short and simple: People don't like fighting against them because of disjointed hitboxes in the swords. This is especially true for those who play characters that need to get right up in your face to do anything.

 

[The Slayer]

Well, it varies. Some don't mind sword wielders as long it brings in some variety to the table. Lately though, we have been getting newcomers with similar to near exact playstyle and barely change it up outside of swing speed/style variation. Doesn't help they have background of being able to utilized different weapons as well, especially from FE.

 

[Deleted member]

As someone who mostly mains sword characters, I'll keep it short and simple: People don't like fighting against them because of disjointed hitboxes in the swords. This is especially true for those who play characters that need to get right up in your face to do anything.

I've noticed (and keep in mind I am using this term with EXTREME liberty here) a VERY VERY VERY LOOSE kind of "weapon triangle"-esque system in play for a good portion of the cast

Brawlers like Mario or Pichu usually lose to swordies like Lucina or Cloud due to the disjointed hitboxes and them not being to challenge them easily

Swordies usually lose to projectile users like (Dark) Samus or a Belmont due to their approach options being rather lackluster since they mainly want to play spacing their opponents but projectile users like Richter ride or die on the "keep-away" style of play

Projectile users usually lose to brawlers dues to them not having good close-combat options so they can't do to much when say, a Pichu gets in their face

Now keep in mind this is SUPER LOOSE, and doesn't mean much. Plenty of characters like Peach, Inkling, Ridley, any heavy, etc don't even fall into this, and this doesn't even fit all the archetypes. No Little mac is beating a mildly competent Samus for example. But just based on the fundamental differences on how different archetypes of characters play, then you can kinda glean the general gist of how they would match up to each other. of course, this isn't perfect.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I've noticed (and keep in mind I am using this term with EXTREME liberty here) a VERY VERY VERY LOOSE kind of "weapon triangle"-esque system in play for a good portion of the cast

Brawlers like Mario or Roy usually lose to swordies like Lucina or Cloud due to the disjointed hitboxes and them not being

Swordies usually lose to projectile users like (Dark) Samus or a Belmont due to their approach options being rather lackluster since they mainly want to play spacing their opponents but projectile users like Richter ride or die on the "keep-away" style of play

Projectile users usually lose to brawlers dues to them not having good close-combat options so they can't do to much when say, a Pichu gets in their face

Now keep in mind this is SUPER LOOSE, and doesn't mean much. Plenty of characters like Peach, Inkling, Ridley, any heavy, etc don't even fall into this, and this doesn't even fit all the archetypes. No Little mac is beating a mildly competent Samus for example. But just based on the fundamental differences on how different archetypes of characters play, then you can kinda glean the general gist of how they would match up to each other. of course, this isn't perfect.

This makes a lot of sense. It's too bad you can't counterpick online.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

You know, a lot of people keep bringing up the brawlers when countering sword users.

But at least all the brawlers punch and kick in different ways. They have punches, elbow strikes, roundhouse kicks, flying kicks, spinning kicks, there's just so much variety.

The only two real sword attacks are slash and stab. And all sword users don't go beyond that.

Even brawlers share similarities between them with their normal attacks that people are never willing to acknowledge but are more than happy to do so for sword wielders.

A lot of jabs are a one－two punch followed by a kick, with some altered variations. Examples: Mario, Luigi, Ness, Lucas, Diddy Kong, Wolf, Lucario, Sonic, Ryu, Pacman, King K. Rool, Wii Fit Trainer, Snake, etc.

A lot of Uairs are overhead kicks or headbutts. Examples: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Falcon, Ganondorf, Kirby, Pacman have bicycles kicks; while DK, Bowser, Lucas and Charizard have headbutts. Ness used to have one as well.

A lot of Dsmashes are sweeping kicks where they first attack forward and then backwards. Variations of this exist where a character uses their claws, tail or weapon. Examples: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Samus, Dark Samus, Snake, all do a sweeping kick.
Bowser and Wolf are similar but they use their claws instead. Little Mac is the same but he punches. Yoshi uses his tail. And sword users also have a similar move such as the Links, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Chrom, Ike, the Pits, Meta Knight but they use their weapon, obviously.

Some Dsmashes are also split kicks. Examples: Fox, Falco, Sonic and Jigglypuff.

Some Dsmashes are ground stomps of some kind. Examples: Charizard, K. Rool, Incineroar and Ridley.

A lot of Bairs are aerial reverse kicks. Some are one footed or two footed, but their function is similar. Examples: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, DK, Bowser, Diddy Kong. Wolf, Samus, Dark Samus, ZSS, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Ness, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Sonic, Bayonetta.

Several Dairs are an aerial stomp. Examples: Dr. Mario, Falcon, Ganondorf, DK, K. Rool, Charizard, Mewtwo, Ness and Wii Fit Trainer. Some variations that differ in execution a bit are Ridley and Greninja.

When you have that many fighters in a game, creating unique animations for each one of their normals becomes a daunting task. It is inevitable that some parallels are going to be drawn between them. The execution matters more. Marth's Fair may be a downwards slash like Ike's, but you don't them in the same way.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Even brawlers share similarities between them with their normal attacks that people are never willing to acknowledge but are more than happy to do so for sword wielders.

A lot of jabs are a one－two punch followed by a kick, with some altered variations. Examples: Mario, Luigi, Ness, Lucas, Diddy Kong, Wolf, Lucario, Sonic, Ryu, Pacman, King K. Rool, Wii Fit Trainer, etc.

A lot of Uairs are overhead kicks or headbutts. Examples: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Falcon, Ganondorf, Kirby, Pacman have bicycles kicks; while DK, Bowser, Lucas and Charizard have headbutts. Ness used to have one as well.

A lot of Dsmashes are sweeping kicks where they first attack forward and then backwards. Variations of this exist where a character uses their claws, tail or weapon. Examples: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Samus, Dark Samus, Snake, all do a sweeping kick.
Bowser and Wolf are similar but they use their claws instead. Little Mac is the same but he punches. Yoshi uses his tail. And sword users also have a similar move such as the Links, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Chrom, Ike, the Pits, Meta Knight but they use their weapon, obviously.

Some Dsmashes are also split kicks. Examples: Fox, Falco, Sonic and Jigglypuff.

Some Dsmashes are ground stomps of some kind. Examples: Charizard, K. Rool, Incineroar and Ridley.

A lot of Bairs are aerial reverse kicks. Some are one footed or two footed, but their function is similar. Examples: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, DK, Bowser, Diddy Kong. Wolf, Samus, Dark Samus, ZSS, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Ness, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Sonic, Bayonetta.

Several Dairs are an aerial stomp. Examples: Dr. Mario, Falcon, Ganondorf, DK, K. Rool, Charizard, Mewtwo, Ness and Wii Fit Trainer. Some variations that differ in execution a bit are Ridley and Greninja.

When you have that many fighters in a game, creating unique animations for each one of their normals becomes a daunting task. It is inevitable that some parallels are going to be drawn between them. The execution matters more. Marth's Fair may be a downwards slash like Ike's, but you don't them in the same way.

You missed the nair sex kicks which Mario, Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Yink, and Link all share.

 

[gr33nsl33v3s]

Lmfao

7. Doesn't exist. You are supporting a character that doesn't exist.

Well, his name is Sylux. I had to look it up to be fair. But You better tell Nintendo that a character they created and have plans for in Prime 4 doesn't exist. But I won't laugh at you like you did. Cause I'm not mean. Besides... Sylux aside... what about the others!?!?!

 

[Kingshadow3]

There is a pet peeve of mine (and a lot of people) involving what characters have that I like to call "Fire Emblem Syndrome". Basically it involves overpopulating the roster with characters that have at least one of the following attributes:

1. Fights with a Sword
2. Uses a fire based move or uses fire attacks in general (Not explosive attacks)
3. Has a counter-based special

As you can see, every Fire Emblem fighter in smash has at least 2 of these properties.

The following have all three of these attributes: ( If you consider all copy abilities)(Swordfighter)
The following have attribute 1 and 2: ( If you consider Flame Sword [F-Air] a move that uses a sword)( If you count the Phantom)
The following have attribute 1 and 3: [ used to be this before they were changed to Kunai in Ultimate]
The following have attribute 2 and 3: (His Up-Smash is actually a fire move)(Brawler)