Why does the Smash community have a stigma against sword-wielders?

[TMNTSSB4]

I wouldn't really count seeing as how it uses water attacks, but overall I agree it's not that big of a deal.

I only put him in due to his smash attacks (maybe an arial as well, but not too sure about that one)

 

[osby]

Most people act like it's a problem because somehow they think all play alike.

 

[Drarky]

The problem with Fire Emblem and Swords is not a Smash thing, it's something that's carried from the franchise itself.
While the games are all about different kinds of weapons and classes, the protagonist are almost always the same good guy using a sword. All the Lords that have a weapon that's not a sword are either stuck with another Lord in it's game (Hector, Ephraim, Micaiah), or the non-sword weapon is just a secondary thing, with their main weapon still being a sword (Alm, Lyn, Celica, etc.).
The first one is probably the biggest problem of the two, because it creates this very awkward situation where you either add one half or the game they're representing, which would be pretty awkward and somewhat dissapointing for fans of the other character, or you add both the non-sword user alongside their respective sword-user companion. And that would mean adding two more Fire Emblem characters for the Smash fandom to complain about the FE pandering.

Honestly, the only solution at this point would be to add a villain, since those tend to not use a sword since they are evil wizards or dragons. But then again, it creates this awkward scenario where you have to ask: Which one? And why this one over the other one? Not to mention that said villain should probaby be from a game that already has an FE rep, else it would be weird to have a villain of one game without having the respective protagonist.

Tl;dr : You can't win against Garnef when it comes down to FE representation. You either have a Sword, or no character.

 

[Fell God]

The problem with Fire Emblem and Swords is not a Smash thing, it's something that's carried from the franchise itself.
While the games are all about different kinds of weapons and classes, the protagonist are almost always the same good guy using a sword. All the Lords that have a weapon that's not a sword are either stuck with another Lord in it's game (Hector, Ephraim, Micaiah), or the non-sword weapon is just a secondary thing, with their main weapon still being a sword (Alm, Lyn, Celica, etc.).
The first one is probably the biggest problem of the two, because it creates this very awkward situation where you either add one half or the game they're representing, which would be pretty awkward and somewhat dissapointing for fans of the other character, or you add both the non-sword user alongside their respective sword-user companion. And that would mean adding two more Fire Emblem characters for the Smash fandom to complain about the FE pandering.

Honestly, the only solution at this point would be to add a villain, since those tend to not use a sword since they are evil wizards or dragons. But then again, it creates this awkward scenario where you have to ask: Which one? And why this one over the other one? Not to mention that said villain should probaby be from a game that already has an FE rep, else it would be weird to have a villain of one game without having the respective protagonist.

Tl;dr : You can't win against Garnef when it comes down to FE representation. You either have a Sword, or no character.

Only problem with adding a villain: the most popular villain in the series uses a sword too, hehe

 

[Drarky]

I don't remember Julius wielding a sword Yeah that doesn't help in the slightest.

 

[Fell God]

I don't remember Julius wielding a sword Yeah that doesn't help in the slightest.

Ah well, I'm sure we probably won't get any more FE reps anyway which makes it pointless to discuss but still sad that FE won't get a villain

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

because people on the internet will find anything to complain about.

that and most fans here only understand characters at a surface levels and don’t see the intricacies if their play styles.

Marth spaces and zones

Roy is the reverse as an aggressor

Lucina and Chrom play in between both of their counter parts

Corrine uses aerial chains, juggles, zones with dragon lance and dragon fang

Link and it’s iterations use a combination of swords, projectiles and hand to hand combat.

Robin uses his spells and levin sword to control space while item managing

Shulk uses his manado to turn himself into a combination of many characters, plus he uses his range to combat his bad frame data

Cloud maintains strong stage presence with limit and chunky sword attacks.

Pit and Dark pit use they’re swords and strong aerial zoning to pressure opponents, while also using their projectiles, armored side b, and reflector shields as tools to punish predictable opponents and place them in disadvantageous positions.

a lot of them are probably scrubs either way.

 

[Deleted member]

The problem with Fire Emblem and Swords is not a Smash thing, it's something that's carried from the franchise itself.
While the games are all about different kinds of weapons and classes, the protagonist are almost always the same good guy using a sword. All the Lords that have a weapon that's not a sword are either stuck with another Lord in it's game (Hector, Ephraim, Micaiah), or the non-sword weapon is just a secondary thing, with their main weapon still being a sword (Alm, Lyn, Celica, etc.).
The first one is probably the biggest problem of the two, because it creates this very awkward situation where you either add one half or the game they're representing, which would be pretty awkward and somewhat dissapointing for fans of the other character, or you add both the non-sword user alongside their respective sword-user companion. And that would mean adding two more Fire Emblem characters for the Smash fandom to complain about the FE pandering.

Honestly, the only solution at this point would be to add a villain, since those tend to not use a sword since they are evil wizards or dragons. But then again, it creates this awkward scenario where you have to ask: Which one? And why this one over the other one? Not to mention that said villain should probaby be from a game that already has an FE rep, else it would be weird to have a villain of one game without having the respective protagonist.

Tl;dr : You can't win against Garnef when it comes down to FE representation. You either have a Sword, or no character.

Well then, we better hope future Fire Emblem characters bring something unique to the table then.

On potential FE characters, though, one character that I do think could be in as completely unique fighter is Alm. He has various Weapon Arts (is that what they're called in Echoes?) to pull from that could make him a unique FE fighter.

 

[osby]

Well then, we better hope future Fire Emblem characters bring something unique to the table then.

On potential FE characters, though, one character that I do think could be in as completely unique fighter is Alm. He has various Weapon Arts (is that what they're called in Echoes?) to pull from that could make him a unique FE fighter.

I mean Robin has a durability mechanic, percent stealing move along with other unique specials and aerial attacks that can have different properties. If Smash fans don't find him unique but do any ordinary spear or axe user, it's kinda pointless to have an argument.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean Robin has a durability mechanic, percent stealing move along with other unique specials and aerial attacks that can have different properties. If Smash fans don't find him unique but do any ordinary spear or axe user, it's kinda pointless to have an argument.

If I had to name a list of FE characters I think could work in Smash, it'd be something like this:
Hector
Alm
Epriaham
Anna
Tiki.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

After Brawl no sword wielder brought a new aesthetic to the game. Maybe Shulk did but having a counter and a lousy recovery didn't help.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

They began to get more representation in Smash Bros than they deserved with Smash 4 introducing a ton of them, and with Sakurai’s main promise for Smash Ultimate being "Everyone is Here", he can't fulfill this request by cutting down on sword users. Besides, apart from the echo fighters, they all bring something unique to the table.

Also, what about and his copy abilities? Some of them give him swords. Can be classified as a sword user? The hero of Dream Land actually utilizes more swords than any other fighter in the game.

 

[Troykv]

After Brawl no sword wielder brought a new aesthetic to the game. Maybe Shulk did but having a counter and a lousy recovery didn't help.

Cloud maybe? XD

 

[Deleted member]

After Brawl no sword wielder brought a new aesthetic to the game. Maybe Shulk did but having a counter and a lousy recovery didn't help.

I don’t agree. As much I despise them as characters, :ultrobinand brought something new to theFE roster. ‘s moveset is fine I feel. Could be a bit better, but I think it’s fine. And has one of the most OP movesets in Smash history, but it certainly stands out I feel.

Are you talking from a character design standpoint? Because you mentioned the word aesthetic.

 

[Quillion]

Also, what about and his copy abilities? Some of them give him swords. Can be classified as a sword user? The hero of Dream Land actually utilizes more swords than any other fighter in the game.

This is a good point: what is a sword user? Is it just anyone who has at least one sword move? Do they need to use their swords at least for their Smashes? Or does it need to be for most of their normal moveset, and if so, how much is "most"?

Most people seem to agree that a brawler is anyone who has one barehanded move, even though Ike could be considered a brawler because of his jab. Link could be considered a brawler because of his N-air.

And even then, we have light sword users (Meta Knight, Marth, Lucina, Young Link, and Toon Link) heavy sword users (Ike, Cloud, Shulk, and now Ganondorf), and middle-of-the-road sword users (Link, Roy, Chrom, Pit and Dark Pit)

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I don’t agree. As much I despise them as characters, :ultrobinand brought something new to theFE roster. ‘s moveset is fine I feel. Could be a bit better, but I think it’s fine. And has one of the most OP movesets in Smash history, but it certainly stands out I feel.

Are you talking from a character design standpoint? Because you mentioned the word aesthetic.

I am. Again, Corrin and Robin added nothing new playstyle wise. Spacing, Juggling, spam side B. Cloud's playstyle is very similar to Shulk's, the latter is only limited by slower movement and divided hitboxes. The both play by moving around a lot, small amounts of spacing but also slight "in your face" play, hard punishing for catching them off guard or surprising them with something unexpected (limit/monado)

 

[Putuk]

Four characters are literally just Marth and every single attack of theirs is a sword swing of sorts. That's just not very interesting.
Cloud also falls into this, since his moves are just various sword swings. Final Fantasy has more to offer than that.
I guess Ike does too, but I just really can't bring myself to hate a beefcake who fights for his friends, it's quite endearing.
Mii Swordfighters moveset is also along those lines, making it the least interesting Mii type.
Shulk also just swings his massive pizzacutter around, now that I think about it.

Link gets a pass, since he uses various tools in addition to the sword, which makes his arsenal very versatile. (Granted, there's three of him.)
Corrin has some strange morphing moves and projectiles, which is loads more interesting than swinging the sword.
Meta Knight draws for a number of Kirby powers in addition to his sword moves and is generally odd stature makes him stand out.


Basically, a number of characters movesets can be summed up with "They swing their sword" and that's just not very fun.

 

[Deleted member]

I am. Again, Corrin and Robin added nothing new playstyle wise. Spacing, Juggling, spam side B. Cloud's playstyle is very similar to Shulk's, the latter is only limited by slower movement and divided hitboxes. The both play by moving around a lot, small amounts of spacing but also slight "in your face" play, hard punishing for catching them off guard or surprising them with something unexpected (limit/monado)

Well, I respectfully disagree. I don’t think :ultrobin,,, or share any similarities in terms of movesets other than they wield swords. But it’s all cool.
Putuk
Well what about future sword characters that utilized more than their sword?
Let's say for example, Dante got into Smash, and he utilized multiple weapons such as Ebony and Ivory, Gilgamesh, Nevan, and Pandora in addition to Rebellion in his attacks? What would your reaction to that be?

 

[Deleted member]

MAJOR EDIT: Sorry about the double post. Smashboards on mobile sucks lol.

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

Yet you rarely see anyone complain about all the fire users:
Incineroar will most likely be added to that.

 

[31fps]

They're beginning to get lame, stale and uncreative. That's why.

Also it made it super easy to add another five FE fighters, which also has a lot of people pissed.

 

[Deleted member]

They're beginning to get lame, stale and uncreative. That's why.

I don't agree with this statement at all. I don't think a sword user can be lame if they can have something added in their move-set, like utilizing multiple different weapons, incorporating magic spells for attacks, or having a summon-able entity as a part of their move-set.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

It's not really sword characters in general that people hate. It's Fire Emblem's over representation in the roster with every character using swords. Fire Emblem has about as many characters as Mario and Pokémon, even though that series is not known in pop culture as those two franchises. And when I played Fire Emblem Echoes, there was a lot of characters who don't use swords. In fact, sword weilders only take up a small number in Alm and Celica's teams. Leon was a pretty awesome sniper. Mae's magic was very powerful mage. They could have picked any non-sword character from Fire Emblem and put them in Smash, but nope, we're stuck with only sword users. Robin uses magic, but he still has a sword. Corrin shapeshifts and he still has a sword. Can we get a Fire Emblem character in Smash who doesn't use a sword at all?

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

This is a good point: what is a sword user? Is it just anyone who has at least one sword move? Do they need to use their swords at least for their Smashes? Or does it need to be for most of their normal moveset, and if so, how much is "most"?

Most people seem to agree that a brawler is anyone who has one barehanded move, even though Ike could be considered a brawler because of his jab. Link could be considered a brawler because of his N-air.

And even then, we have light sword users (Meta Knight, Marth, Lucina, Young Link, and Toon Link) heavy sword users (Ike, Cloud, Shulk, and now Ganondorf), and middle-of-the-road sword users (Link, Roy, Chrom, Pit and Dark Pit)

I would think a sword user would be defined as someone who uses swords for the majority of their move set. It's really hard to draw a line between sword fighter and other type of fighter. I gave my attempt at it below, but I know people will have differing views.

I think it is obvious that , , , , , , , , and are all undoubtedly sword fighters as most to all of their moves are preformed with their respective swords. I would say , , , , and are sword users as while they have other tricks up their sleeves, most of their moves that aren't special moves use their swords. It's hard to say for sure about if :ultrobin and are sword fighters as what makes them unique shows throughout their move set. :ultrobin with his magic and the cool downs on tomes plus the more powerful sword he wields, and with her dragon transformations that compose a ton of the moves she utilizes. In spite of a minority of their attacks, I would defiantly say that fighters like , , , and are not sword users because they each have maximum three moves that they actually swing them.

 

[Deleted member]

It's not really sword characters in general that people hate. It's Fire Emblem's over representation in the roster with every character using swords. Fire Emblem has about as many characters as Mario and Pokémon, even though that series is not known in pop culture as those two franchises. And when I played Fire Emblem Echoes, there was a lot of characters who don't use swords. In fact, sword weilders only take up a small number in Alm and Celica's teams. Leon was a pretty awesome sniper. Mae's magic was very powerful mage. They could have picked any non-sword character from Fire Emblem and put them in Smash, but nope, we're stuck with only sword users. Robin uses magic, but he still has a sword. Corrin shapeshifts and he still has a sword. Can we get a Fire Emblem character in Smash who doesn't use a sword at all?

I agree. I think Fire Emblem is the source of this problem. Not only does that series have more characters than other iconic series like Kirby and Zelda and is almost equal to Pokemon's roster, but 3 characters pretty much play the same as one another in said roster.

However, what I don't agree with is the idea that all future potential Smash characters that wield a sword must be excluded from Smash permanently because of this. I think that many characters who will a sword, like Dante, Ryu Hayabusa, Rex & Prya, hell even Alm can be made into unique fighters because I see the potential in them.

I don't think it's right to start saying characters don't belong in Smash purely because of what weapon they fight with. If I made this kind of argument against someone like Geno on the basis he should be excluded because he has the same weapon as and , which is an Arm Cannon, I'd probably be
crucified right now.We shouldn't judge a character by what weapon they wield. But rather we should judge them by how good they use said weapon.

 

[shinhed-echi]

My main problem is that half of them are from Fire Emblem.
I mean look at this:

ultroy: Fire Emblem
1/4 Zelda & the rest.

And then they ask me why I dislike FE so much. It ruined sword users for pretty much everyone who is not a fan of the series, most likely without them even knowing it.
And what really grinds my gears is that there are still SO many awesome sword-using characters left to include. And there are no signs of Sakurai stopping from including more FE characters.
The man will get his fantasy and have an 8-Player smash of FE characters only on screen.

They really pushed for that series... Great. Now stop it.

 

[RileyXY1]

As people have said, it's due to Fire Emblem. The series has 7 reps, all of which use swords, and 3 are either Echoes or semi-clones.

 

[SmashBro99]

Yet you rarely see anyone complain about all the fire users:
Incineroar will most likely be added to that.

None of them are based around fire, its not like thats all they have, unlike the handful of generic sword fighters FE brought.

Don't even try that lol.

 

[Diddy Kong]

There's enough variety amongst the sword characters, but it didn't help that we always had at least 2 Links, and quite a few characters based around Marth. But since Brawl and Smash 4 introduced more sword chararacters I can't see what's the harm.

 

[Deleted member]

There's enough variety amongst the sword characters, but it didn't help that we always had at least 2 Links, and quite a few characters based around Marth. But since Brawl and Smash 4 introduced more sword chararacters I can't see what's the harm.

True. I honestly would just give a new moveset based around A Link Between Worlds and trim the FE roster down a bit. Cut ,, and too while we're at it.

 

[Uffe]

Blame Fire Emblem. They gave sword wielders a bad reputation, always being so Fire Emblemy and same-moves-y.

This is my reason as well. It's not so much about there being characters with swords, it's the fact that most of the sword wielders come from the same series. Marth, Roy, Ike, Lucina, Robin, Corrin, and now Chrom.

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

None of them are based around fire, its not like thats all they have, unlike the handful of generic sword fighters FE brought.

Don't even try that lol.

True... except for Charizard and maybe even Cap’n F. My point was, there’s a lot of characters with fire moves. Seems like every match you play, someone’s throwing some fire around.

 

[SmashBro99]

True... except for Charizard and maybe even Cap’n F. My point was, there’s a lot of characters with fire moves. Seems like every match you play, someone’s throwing some fire around.

Right, but don't you agree, Captain Falcon has...what 5 moves with fire? And Charizard has about the same, but it isn't their WHOLE moveset.

 

[Jyl]

I think it's less of a stigma against sword users and more of a stigma against Fire Emblem characters using swords, which is like all of them.
I wouldn't mind another sword user if the moveset is original, or a katana user since Smash doesn't have one yet. Like a certain someone whose name starts with a "T"

 

[Quillion]

Funny how people don't want Fire Emblem characters to use swords, yet they want Zelda characters to use swords.

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

Right, but don't you agree, Captain Falcon has...what 5 moves with fire? And Charizard has about the same, but it isn't their WHOLE moveset.

Yeah, I get it. It was just something I thought about.

 

[Deleted member]

Funny how people don't want Fire Emblem characters to use swords, yet they want Zelda characters to use swords.

I'd be cool with a Zelda character that doesn't use a sword. Like Skull Kid or Impa with a Guardian Spear.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Because the smash community always has something to complain about...

We have the answer.
Just lock the thread


Anyway, I don't know and I don't care enough to ask why...
As long as the characters are fun to play. (Which they are)

 

[Luigifan18]

The lack of commentary about Vaati (Legend of Zelda) and Isaac (Golden Sun) in this thread disappoints me.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Because they all have similar/identical playstyles and it becomes easier to excuse for grandfather fighter in this way. More sword wielders don't add new creative ways to play anymore.

You are an alt of 3 31fps . Your opinion is no longer valid.