Why Do Some People Deem Marth A Broken Character?

[~The Koopa King~]

i don't get it...aside from maybe his final smash(which i doubt many of you will hardly ever use unless in a friendly party brawl with items)he's not really what i'd call broken
unless there's some exploit or secret that makes marth top of the heap..
so really is it fair to call him broken or is he just like Ike With A Different Playstyle and all around moveset

 

[ZHMT]

Two words...Forward Air...

Im too lazy to put the rest. :D

 

[Nintendo_lord]

Because, he is too good.

 

[Megavitamins]

Marth isn't broken. Snake is broken, MK is broken, Lolimar is broken, BUT MARTH IS NOT BROKEN!

 

[alchfilosofer]

i don't get it...aside from maybe his final smash(which i doubt many of you will hardly ever use unless in a friendly party brawl with items)he's not really what i'd call broken
unless there's some exploit or secret that makes marth top of the heap..
so really is it fair to call him broken or is he just like Ike With A Different Playstyle and all around moveset

I will just mention few things about his B moves.

Shield breaker= breaks shields quite easily (and brawl is a defensive campy game), have whit range abobe almost all no projectiles and fully charged tipper is more powerful than charged tipped F-smash.

Dancing Blade: This is considerated 2cond or 1rst move in the game, super quick, regenerate other moves, combo, have setups, can spike, good damage...

Counter: come out in frame 4, and gives quite good damage.

Dolphin Slash: C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER! this move have invulnerability in the first 4 frames and can kill.

Now I'm not mentioning half of the things he can do whit his B moves and nothing about his smashs and tilts.

 

[grandmaster192]

marth is as good as any of those characters save for snake.

 

[Danyul19]

I think the reason some people think Marth is too good is because statistically, he actually is really, really good. He is a rare combination of incredibly fast and incredibly powerful. He has massive range, low lag on most of his moves, and a good enough recovery. Just from this perspective, it seems like he doesn't really have a weakness. However, while he may seem the best in theory, in practice it seems like he isn't really as good as you would expect, especially when he has to compete with guys like Snake, Metaknight, and Olimar. Generally, I think the reason some people think Marth is too good because most characters are either very fast, or very powerful. Marth is one of the only characters who is both (and doesn't have a crippling weakness like Olimar/Wolf and their recoveries).

 

[AdmiralComrade]

well i think every character is broken in their own way but its all broken that its balanced

 

[Ciel~Image]

Fair
DTilt
Dancing Blade
Shieldbreaker

 

[Airgemini]

Tipper, Fsmash, Fair.

 

[OmegaSephiroth]

Marth would be broken if he had a projectile...

 

[ZHMT]

Marth would be broken if he had a projectile...

If Marth had a projectile then he wouldnt be allowed to be used XD.

 

[IDK]

yeah... you have to be agressive. also... nobody plays with items so final smashes are not taken into account. his...fair...is...broken. deal with marth being top tier.

 

[Listerine]

Broken, Cheap, Overpowered etc. ; Never. Good and Balanced; Always.

 

[Amide]

I think the reason some people think Marth is too good is because statistically, he actually is really, really good. He is a rare combination of incredibly fast and incredibly powerful. He has massive range, low lag on most of his moves, and a good enough recovery. Just from this perspective, it seems like he doesn't really have a weakness. However, while he may seem the best in theory, in practice it seems like he isn't really as good as you would expect, especially when he has to compete with guys like Snake, Metaknight, and Olimar. Generally, I think the reason some people think Marth is too good because most characters are either very fast, or very powerful. Marth is one of the only characters who is both (and doesn't have a crippling weakness like Olimar/Wolf and their recoveries).

This is right. It's mainly because of some matchups that he isn't top tier. It's too bad that his weaknesses get exploited in some of these matchups.

 

[GhettoSheep]

He's considered broken only by noobs who run into his fsmash and fair all the time and are too dumb to incorporate mindgames or play smart. I rather enjoy playing against marth because it's always challenging but still a good match. On the other hand, MK just ***** and really is broken because he basically has no lag on anything and is absurdly user friendly

 

[VietGeek]

He's considered broken only by noobs who run into his fsmash and fair all the time and are too dumb to incorporate mindgames or play smart. I rather enjoy playing against marth because it's always challenging but still a good match. On the other hand, MK just ***** and really is broken because he basically has no lag on anything and is absurdly user friendly

Absolutely. Although I think at this point, lots of people don't really consider Marth broken anymore except some scrubs who refuse to think during fights. =/

Similar to Toon Link and Wolf. These two newcomers were considered pretty godly early into Brawl's lifespan. However, at this point they are generally considered only mid to lower high at best in the semi-serious tier threads of GameFAQs users (which while slightly bias, offer some insight into the current competitive scene).

Marth for me is considered very good because he is a versatile character. His variety of options offensively and defensively make him adjustable to many situations. Combine that with decent speed and knockback make him naturally good.

I just want his grab range back and I'm happy.

Maybe make Toon Link have a faster Ftilt, just for lulz

 

[phi1ny3]

Marth is good, because he's got ways to deal with many playstyles. His standard A and most tilts destroy projectiles, and despite most char's weaknesses, Marth's is only real one relies on if the player knows his spacings or not. He's got good speed and power, and the only ppl who are still standing as total anihalators are Snake and MK.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Woah... what? I'm too much of a novice to fathom this... MK and Snake and Olimar stand above Marth? Eh, I though since Day 1 Marth was on god tier. I could understand that MK, Snake, and Olimar are great characters--but just on par with Marth at best.

Since when has it been deemed that that trio is above Marth? Note, I don't really read much on competitive play outside Marth... But what?

I mean...

Aerial spam (possible tip), DB refresh (SHFF>Nair,Fair,x2 Fair)
Foxtrot
Stutter Step Fsmash (Which I exclusively will call Dash Smash)
Easy DB
Good weaving ability
DS has invincibility frame + awesome priority + finisher

But yeah... Those aren't character special, for the most part. But what makes Snake, MK, Olimar special?
All I know is:

Snake = devastating attacks (finishers)
MK = I don't know squat... (apparently no lag) But I heard he had no great finishers (2, I think, but that was months ago_
Olimar = Grab master? I heard.

Yeah... I'm curious... thanks

 

[VietGeek]

Woah... what? I'm too much of a novice to fathom this... MK and Snake and Olimar stand above Marth? Eh, I though since Day 1 Marth was on god tier. I could understand that MK, Snake, and Olimar are great characters--but just on par with Marth at best.

Since when has it been deemed that that trio is above Marth? Note, I don't really read much on competitive play outside Marth... But what?

I mean...

Aerial spam (possible tip), DB refresh (SHFF>Nair,Fair,x2 Fair)
Foxtrot
Stutter Step Fsmash (Which I exclusively will call Dash Smash)
Easy DB
Good weaving ability
DS has invincibility frame + awesome priority + finisher

But yeah... Those aren't character special, for the most part. But what makes Snake, MK, Olimar special?
All I know is:

Snake = devastating attacks (finishers)
MK = I don't know squat... (apparently no lag) But I heard he had no great finishers (2, I think, but that was months ago_
Olimar = Grab master? I heard.

Yeah... I'm curious... thanks

Good Snakes refuse to die. They live to outrageous percentages, yet can kill you with their tilts, smashes and godly projectiles at lower percentages. Needless to say, you and your projectile-less safe will have some trouble.

MK has the tornado, which is extremely difficult for you to punish. His grab range is very good, his attacks can all set up for kills. He has one of the the best gimping/off-stage games in the entirety of Brawl. Yes, he is also basically lagless on basically every attack that matters to him. Overall, his moves are difficult to punish, a good MK is almost ALWAYS safe from your attacks. Even if you shield everything, he'll proceed to grab you as he has almost no lag. He's like broken ****. Good Snakes counter good MKs though. Did I mention he can spam his basically lagless Dsmash, his main finisher?

Olimar isn't too popular in GA for all I know. But I hear he has some pretty **** smashes, and naturally he has insane grabs. I guess the fact that he can use him Pikmin as meatshields is kinda bad too, but its the smashes and grabs that make him harder to approach.

Marth is good, but MK and Snake in particular counter Marth and exploit his weaknesses.

Not included in the "bad match-ups for Marth" discussion is ROB.

Gyro spam is ****, and I'm STILL bitter. =(

 

[Meta Marth]

yea, Marth really isn't broken, he just has a lot going for him, while Snake and Meta Knight are broken. hey, vietgeek, i'm from Buford too. what school do you go to?

 

[Doodx]

marth is believed to be broken because people do not know how to face him so they lose to him

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

One thing that keeps Marth back from true brokenness IMO is his hitboxes. They are all very short and sharp, meaning that he's rather vulnerable to people who are good with a shield.

His Fsmash, Dancing Blade, Shield Breaker and even his Fair to an extent are all punishable on block. Characters with fast rolls can also take advantage of the lag at the end of his attacks.

See, with Marth, there isn't much room for error. His hitboxes activate and then they're gone. They don't linger at all, meaning that if you whiff a move, you REALLY whiff it, and have to suffer through the entire lag animation.

Wheras some other characters have hitboxes that linger for a few frames after their attack actually finishes, cutting a few frames off the actual lag time (Ike for example...or Lucario for an even better one.)

And he doesn't have a projectile. Most Marth mains will tell you this isn't a problem because they can jab/ftilt/whatever any projectiles that come their way, but a lot of projectile users don't try to cause damage with their projectiles, but use them to control the opponent.

Besides that, and a very linear recovery, Marth is pretty broken. :/ He has too much KO power for his insane stats, and he has such horribly evil properties on his Dolphin slash with its 5 invincibilty frames of doom.

 

[Lord_Dedede]

before pro's came along no one used martha cause he was considered a low tier now since they showed he was so easy to master scrubs came along and mastered him.No one really used martha cause they like him they use martha cause he's easy to exploit and master so heres his motto. "so easy a cave man can do it"

 

[fkacyan]

Every character played by a good player is broken, because the other player sucks.

There is no broken character in Brawl. Some characters are much better than others, but none actually have traits that make them the clear winner in every single matchup in the game.

 

[Benjamin Linus]

Most people deem marth broken because of the 2 main advantages he has over most of the characters in the game. Marth has awesome range and speed. He can tipper and kill in the double digits and he has a spike.

However, those people are thoroughly wrong because marth is certainly not broken. Marth gets ***** by most of the top tier. All the big characters with more range then marth mess him up good and even some of the small characters if used correctly. The people who call him broken are probably frustrated with the match up they have against him or just see the 2 good things about him more often then they see him get *****.

 

[Emblem Lord]

One thing that keeps Marth back from true brokenness IMO is his hitboxes. They are all very short and sharp, meaning that he's rather vulnerable to people who are good with a shield.

His Fsmash, Dancing Blade, Shield Breaker and even his Fair to an extent are all punishable on block. Characters with fast rolls can also take advantage of the lag at the end of his attacks.

See, with Marth, there isn't much room for error. His hitboxes activate and then they're gone. They don't linger at all, meaning that if you whiff a move, you REALLY whiff it, and have to suffer through the entire lag animation.

Wheras some other characters have hitboxes that linger for a few frames after their attack actually finishes, cutting a few frames off the actual lag time (Ike for example...or Lucario for an even better one.)

And he doesn't have a projectile. Most Marth mains will tell you this isn't a problem because they can jab/ftilt/whatever any projectiles that come their way, but a lot of projectile users don't try to cause damage with their projectiles, but use them to control the opponent.

Besides that, and a very linear recovery, Marth is pretty broken. :/ He has too much KO power for his insane stats, and he has such horribly evil properties on his Dolphin slash with its 5 invincibilty frames of doom.

You are incorrect.

Marth would be god tier if he had one thing.

Safe kill moves.

None of his kill moves are safe on block. He has all the tools to be really good, but if he just had that he would be a contender for number 1 in the game. Marth has to read his opponent or put them in a situation that he can take advantage of to get a kill. If his opponent avoids that kill move then he is open.

Also what lag does Marth have on his pressure moves?

Tell me where the lag is on fair, d-tilt and f-tilt? Marth has IASA frames on d-tilt and f-tilt. His fair has very little lag.

So unless you spam smashes I don't know what you mean.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^That or Nessbounder has never encountered a Marth with good spacing.

lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think Nessbounder is too used to Lucario. Now he thinks lingering hitboxes are the greatest things ever and are the defining factor of a top tier character.

Which clearly isn't the case since MK and Snake really don't have lingering hitboxes.

And Lucario who does have them clearly isn't top tier.

 

[Hype]

Anyone else notice how his concluding statement says "is it fair to call him broken." when it's all about his ownage Fair. or do I just notice pointless things.

edit: Obviosly there are many other things that make marth a great character

 

[∫unk]

I think Nessbounder is too used to Lucario. Now he thinks lingering hitboxes are the greatest things ever and are the defining factor of a top tier character.

Which clearly isn't the case since MK and Snake really don't have lingering hitboxes.

And Lucario who does have them clearly isn't top tier.

MK's attacks last a while... longer than most Marth attacks.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That is not a lingering hitbox.

That is several consecutive hitboxes in rapid succession.

It's a little bit different, but creates a similar result.

 

[∫unk]

Um... obvious?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh? No need to get snippy.

I stated that MK has no lingering hitboxes. Which he doesn't and I backed up my statement and you say it's obvious.

What is your deal right now anyway? Do you suddenly dislike my posts or something? PM me if you have something to say.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I think Nessbounder is too used to Lucario. Now he thinks lingering hitboxes are the greatest things ever and are the defining factor of a top tier character.

Which clearly isn't the case since MK and Snake really don't have lingering hitboxes.

And Lucario who does have them clearly isn't top tier.

Snake has very good lingering hitboxes actually. On most of his moves. Especially Utilt and Ftilt. Not to mention his Bair and Uair.

And to answer your question: Fair is an aerial. It may have lag canceling on landing, but the lag is still there regardless. It can still be shield grabbed most of the time, and even shield-released and jabbed. Of course, this is only if you're using it on a grounded opponent, which is unsafe for most aerials.

I personally don't find Ftilt all that effective. There's clearly a bit of lag after the move ends taking the IASA frames into account (although barely any startup time kind of negates this.) Look at Lucas's Ftilt and how much faster it is in comparison lag-wise. That's a really safe Ftilt right there (although it doesn't have so much range.)

I'm not going to argue with Dtilt because that move really is very safe and awesome, but like all dtilts, you have to sit through the crouching animation, which cuts the speed of the initial jab slightly, but nothing big. Even then, it's got a very low hitbox that can be shorthopped over, so you can't exactly spam this move against a clever opponent.

I don't know where you're getting this thing about me thinking that lingering hitboxes are the defining point of a top tier character...but they are important. Look at Olimar. Little freak has lingering/multiple hitboxes coming out of every orifice of his body and they're incredibly annoying. Even Toon Link has some lingering hitboxes on his sword. I never once said that Lucario is a top tier character. I think he's a high tier, or possibly the very lowest of top tier, but not a defining top tier character.

My appreciation for lingering hitboxes goes way back beyond just the Smash bros series.

And Sonic Wave: One of my only regular human opponents plays Marth and Metaknight commonly. You also have to realize that as a Lucario/PK boys player, spacing is just as important for my characters as it is for yours. I also play a decent Marth myself, although I just don't like him as much as the other sword characters.

 

[DarkRunner00]

eh... novice again...

where is this psuedo tier list coming from?

I can understand people making junk... but it seems pretty official coming from high ranked posters backing up with great explanations and seemingly experienced stuff going on... and if there's a link> that'll be cool, i'm just curious what crazy things are going with the tier list, as i think i stated, i've only focused on marth... and i realized i don't play enough to even consider myself die hard... i'm as casual as i can be...will be... i realized.

I'm just curious... for instance I wanna know what pros think of pikachu... and I've looked at other character discussion threads... just... hard to really find a solid thread comparing all of the characters I WANT to look into... just out of curiousity...

I stated pikachu... because electro-**** is cheap... how cheap? Iono... its myfault you can warn me if i'm being too lazy...

 

[∫unk]

Eh? No need to get snippy.

I stated that MK has no lingering hitboxes. Which he doesn't and I backed up my statement and you say it's obvious.

What is your deal right now anyway? Do you suddenly dislike my posts or something? PM me if you have something to say.

No, just PMSing

Fuhgettaboutit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are a woman?

Serious question.

 

[phi1ny3]

Eh? No need to get snippy.

I stated that MK has no lingering hitboxes. Which he doesn't and I backed up my statement and you say it's obvious.

What is your deal right now anyway? Do you suddenly dislike my posts or something? PM me if you have something to say.

Lol NESSBOUNDER, see when I say that there is now the Communial Church of Emblem Lord, founded by Emblem Lord, on SWF?

And yes, I think NESSBOUNDER has as much validation in his words. EL, SW, and NESSBOUNDER have contributed to mah favorite boards, so why the hostility (lol)?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake has no longering hitboxes. Those are just really big unrealistic hitboxes.

Anyway, I already hit the nial on the head more so then any other person in this thread.

Marth has no kill moves that are safe on block and plus he has to get tippers to get the full potential of all his smashes.

U-smash and D-smash are still good even if they don't tip put F-smash is subpar when it isn't tipped.

Edit: When done correctly Marth can't be shield grabbed after a Fair when he fast falls it.

He can roll, spot dodge or up b to avoid retaliation.