Why Brinstar Should be Banned (or Jungle Japes should be added to to the stage list)

[NAKAT]

Don't ban Brinstar I've beaten MK's there with Fox.

 

[Judo777]

Also the sharking and air control IMO isn't even the primary reason MK is good on the stage. Its because the stage is so freaking small. And as we all should know the only way to properly fight MK is to avoid him entirely. This becomes quite impossible on brinstar.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Avoiding a matchup is impossible. Not sure what you're talking about. If you mean avoiding him when landing then I agree with you, there's not really anywhere safe that you can land on this stage. But if you mean avoiding him entirely then I'm not sure what logic you're following. :/

 

[Ripple]

well, have fun guys I'm done arguing here.

 

[Judo777]

Avoiding a matchup is impossible. Not sure what you're talking about. If you mean avoiding him when landing then I agree with you, there's not really anywhere safe that you can land on this stage. But if you mean avoiding him entirely then I'm not sure what logic you're following. :/

I exaggerated a little. But lets look at the characters who do pretty well against Mk in general. The first 2 that pop up immediately are Diddy, and Falco. Both of these character have a very similar method for fighting MK. You run away and throw crap the entire match. Falco lasers and phantasms around and very rarely DIRECTLY attacks MK but rather looks for openeing when hes not on even ground with MK (figuratively). Diddy works the same way. He pressures MK with peanuts, and chucks bananas at him safely until one of them can connect then attacks MK once MK is no longer in a neutral position.

IMO the main reason snakes MU with MK has becomes less good over time is because over time people have learend how to deal with snakes camping, and while snakes tilts are good its doesn't compensate for how hard MK can hurt snake once he gets close enough.

Fox is also believed to have a decent MU with MK. All of tkd's matches that i have watched involved running away and laser camping trying to catch MK with cheap hits but essentially the objective is keep away.

 

[Player-1]

I've skimmed through the last few pages and all I gotta say is a comment to BPC...Jeebus isn't a top player lolz, socal sucks.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

", socal sucks." :'( Am sad.

@Judo: But that's true for all of Falco's matchups. Fish for chaingrabs, laser camp, punish landings, kill with bair/usmash high%. That's generally how it goes am I right? And, well, the idea in ALL matchups is to look for an opening and punish once they are at a disadvantaged position. Its just that MK's options reduce the amount of actually disadvantageous positions he can be in in the first place.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Lets see. the Tier list goes MK, Snake, Diddy. If I main Diddy, then the only aerial character I could choose from without downgrading would be MK. This would be true for every character on the top of the tier list up until ICs.

Because placement on the tier list is, of course, everything you need to know about a character's strengths and weaknesses.

BPC I probably read it but it was inconsequential with my belief( I honestly can't even remember it(but I know I read it). I don't think your paradigm allows you to understand people like adhd, m2k, tkds arguments based on what stages they allow for tournament play(which is the only debate I will discuss here, not anything like a lgl or air time rule). I believe you can only currently understand the game in terms of logic, which is great on paper but loses its practicallity at a tournament when so many factors both seen, and unseen are at play, that the far more experienced players SUCH AS tkd DEHF ADHD can grasp that you or may not.

In terms of gameplay? Sure. But in terms of crafting a ruleset, I cannot agree. Have you seen the kind of things that they have been brining out? TKD especially. They see things that I don't, but have not been able to explain to me what they see even remotely. I'm not a closed-minded person. But all that TKD has been willing to bring to me is "The Mexicans want it this way". That's not good reasoning for a ruleset.

But I really suggest you stop labeling people as scrubs, when you really aren't in a place to be the arbiter of the metagame. Disagreement is fine, flaming quite honestly isn't.

But it's like calling that kid from "Radio" a ******. You're going on the dictionary definition of the word.

@ everyone as a whole
whether you decide to ban brinstar, or not, really depends on what your competitive values are.

Do you favor a greater stage diversity? by allowing brinstar? Which (as far as I know)
isn't random and does not break any ethics soley based by logical backing.


Or do you favor a greater character diversity (like an fd or static based metagame), as more characters will generally prefer FD over brinstar, which more along the lines of (to quote pierce) "a set of skills that directly corrolate to defeating your opponent"

This is kind of a false dichotomy, just FYI (and the last statement is simply not applicable to brawl). Character diversity is great, so is stage diversity. But you don't automatically have to sacrifice one for the other. With more stage bans, Metaknight is forced down to the "next tier" of counterpicks for him-Delfino and Frigate. In many matchups, this is simply not that amazing. Character variability is maintained. You can have a fairly ridiculous number of legal stages this way, without character viability suffering. So if you throw in more stage bans, you can keep stages like RC and Brinstar legal, but the "broken" factors like MK on Brinstar are not an issue.

clearly u have not played good warios.

HEY NAPPY!

and honestly i think BF, SV and FD, and yoshis should be legal.
all the other gimmicky stages are dumb and dont really support competition.

the points into having other stages legal are just silly lol

What, you mean like:
-Enhanced competitive value
-Additional, brawl-relevant skillsets
-better internal balance
-the requirement to gain additional 'required' skillsets.

Yes, obviously silly and has no connection to making the game more competitively deep.

Or, alternative hypothesis: you don't know what you're talking about and really should inform yoursel about why we legalize stages beyond the "basic" ones.

 

[Judo777]

", socal sucks." :'( Am sad.

@Judo: But that's true for all of Falco's matchups. Fish for chaingrabs, laser camp, punish landings, kill with bair/usmash high%. That's generally how it goes am I right? And, well, the idea in ALL matchups is to look for an opening and punish once they are at a disadvantaged position. Its just that MK's options reduce the amount of actually disadvantageous positions he can be in in the first place.

Come on tho you can't tell me that there isn't a stricter correlation between MK and MU's where the other can avoid him than most.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I truthfully just do not have the time to write out my response now I re-added you on aim *I removed you previously because your aim makes a really annoying loud sound when you come on.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Fair enough.

 

[CR4SH]

no they wouldn't. wario is hitable

I agree.

10rip.


How many stages do we really have to sacrifice to the altar of metaknight? Really.

Judo, when was your tournament again? Hit me on skype.

 

[ADHD]

well, have fun guys I'm done arguing here.

You don't even argue, though.

Your arguments are 5-word sentences that a 5-year-old can write better.

 

[Ripple]

and ADHD comes in only to insult me once again likes he's done in every stage thread that I've ever posted in.

I would report it like the other 3 times but I honestly don't think the mods will do anything just like the last 3 times.

 

[Dr.Complexity]

Only problem I've ever had with Brinstar
Is the acid and how crappy the stage layout is but eh if it's in the game and it's been in so many tournies why complain?

If you can't handle it learn how.

 

[Blacknight99923]

You don't even argue, though.

Your arguments are 5-word sentences that a 5-year-old can write better.

you rarely argue either, you just spout correct (in my opinion) information

 

[Ripple]

you rarely argue either, you just spout correct (in my opinion) information

what the ****? that ONE post was from like page 2. I then had a 4 page war between just myself and jebus. I posted more than just 5 word arguments. did you even take the time to read this thread?

don't be a douchebag and spout wrong information

 

[-LzR-]

Only problem I've ever had with Brinstar
Is the acid and how crappy the stage layout is but eh if it's in the game and it's been in so many tournies why complain?

If you can't handle it learn how.

That's your problem, not the stages.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...As he stated.

Also, ADHD, seriously? You're really one to talk...

 

[Blacknight99923]

what the ****? that ONE post was from like page 2. I then had a 4 page war between just myself and jebus. I posted more than just 5 word arguments. did you even take the time to read this thread?

don't be a douchebag and spout wrong information

I wasn't talking to you or about you. Simply that ADHD is known to be bull headed in his beliefs, and despite that I generally agree with him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I am kinda mixed about this at this point. I can definantly see the issues from both sides and how this could be difficult.

Also Ripple way to rip on the staff, I pay clsoe attention to this thread and this forum. If I miss it reporting it can help make sure it is dealt with and an Smod can take care of it.

People should also post content and not things directed at people, aka talk about Brinstar.

 

[Ripple]

Also Ripple way to rip on the staff, I pay clsoe attention to this thread and this forum. If I miss it reporting it can help make sure it is dealt with and an Smod can take care of it.

I have every right to rip on the staff. this is the third time I've reported ADHD to the staff for DIRECTLY insulting me in this forum ( not thread). not to mention that he insults others all the time ( and I'm not saying others don't do it) and posts absolutely nothing of worth. this is bull **** and I'm ****ing sick of mods not banning him for this. I absolutely detest the mods way of dealing with people like him. they just give him warnings or a slap on the wrist saying "don't do that again" but guess what, he does. and even if he DOES get an infraction, he waits a week or however long it is until points expire and then comes right back to it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Would it be a good idea to collect videos and information of good players who played on brinstar, what characters they used and what character won?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do you understand how moderation works on any forum? On a typical forum people are handed out infractions that expire over time. Our forum hands out perminant points when they obtain a lot of point with in periods of time. Permanent bans are reserved for extreme cases where someone posts something really bad, insane crazy guy and Susa for example. We don't ban people for making snid comment, if they do it repedidly or make it clear that is all they will do we pull the ban hammer.

ADHD has not done such, however he has been temp banned when he accumulated too many points I beleive. It's minor flaming at best 1 point you need 6 to be banned.

I don't give people the slap on the wrist like you think, Prawn? I gave him a 2 point one after I told people get off BPCs back.

I will not discuss this further and will ignore any talk after about it after this point. You can PM if want but not here.

Keep it to Brinstar.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Wins By MKs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-19NssjjZQ&feature=related against Ally (Snake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJQqmRlngkY against ADHD (Diddy)


Wins by Warios:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZF4S2kBctE against Ally (MK)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bAXnlQP-o against NickRiddle (ZSS)

Wins by Captain Falcons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo6Qj0b7ReM&feature=related against Judge (Wario)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an3xN3RpaHs against MK (Lain)

Wins By Snakes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJZC84cJQJg against Judge (Wario)

Wins By G&Ws:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_H3qerLnA against Shaky (Ness)

More to come

 

[Ripple]

Wins By MKs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-19NssjjZQ&feature=related against Ally (Snake)


Wins by Warios:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZF4S2kBctE against Ally (MK)

Wins by Captain Falcons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo6Qj0b7ReM&feature=related against Judge (Wario)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an3xN3RpaHs against MK (Lain)

Wins By Snakes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJZC84cJQJg against Judge (Wario)

Wins By G&Ws:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_H3qerLnA against Shaky (Ness)

More to come

this is too selective and you will fail

 

[SaveMeJebus]

this is too selective and you will fail

How? I am putting every match I can find that involves characters that are known to be overpowering on that stage (including the matches in which they lose)

 

[sunshade]

I think it would be more relevant to post matches in which the person who is generally less skilled than his opponent wins. Showing matches of better players winning on brinstar does not mean much but seeing a significantly lesser skilled player win does.

 

[Ripple]

How? I am putting every match I can find that involves characters that are known to be overpowering on that stage (including the matches in which they lose)

this is why.

you need to find out how many times brinstar is played on compared to every other single stage.

then you need to find records of when people played on brinstar but didn't record it.

then see who won with what character on that stage.

and if the match went to time.


you will never be able to do all that, people don't even tell me what character they used in tournaments. you think that you can find accurate data? you seriously have no chance

 

[DeLux]

I think it would be more relevant to post matches in which the person who is generally less skilled than his opponent wins. Showing matches of better players winning on brinstar does not mean much but seeing a significantly lesser skilled player win does.

How does one define generally less skilled?

There really isn't any relative game by game statistic to determine that. The only game by game statistic we have to determine skill is who wins. And if they won, they displayed more skill during that specific match.

That is not the level's fault. It's the players and their ability to adapt to the necessary requirements to win in that particular scenario. If they are losing because they can't adapt, it shows less skill on their part.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@ Sunshade, The problem with that is that it is sometimes hard to determine which player is at a higher level than the other when both players are at a top level. Here are some where it is obvious who the better player was and yet they still lost:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UolkDnxKiCw&feature=related Gnes vs. D4ba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bAXnlQP-o NickRiddle vs. Slikvik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_H3qerLnA Vinnie vs. Shaky (?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZF4S2kBctE Ally vs Krystedez

@Ripple, This stage doesn't get played too often because alot of people ban it (unless there was an MLG stage list in which case most people banned Norfair)

 

[sunshade]

How does one define generally less skilled?

There really isn't any relative game by game statistic to determine that. The only game by game statistic we have to determine skill is who wins. And if they won, they displayed more skill during that specific match.

That is not the level's fault. It's the players and their ability to adapt to the necessary requirements to win in that particular scenario. If they are losing because they can't adapt, it shows less skill on their part.

Skill is a persons ability to consistently achieve victory. You are right that there is no hard and fast measurement of skill however we can still use the obvious cases.

 

[Ripple]

@Ripple, This stage doesn't get played too often because alot of people ban it (unless there was an MLG stage list in which case most people banned Norfair)

can you prove that? you have nothing but speculation

 

[SaveMeJebus]

can you prove that? you have nothing but speculation

I only have what I heard from pros in Socal after they came back from the MLGs. What do you have?

 

[Ripple]

I only have what I heard from pros in Socal after they came back from the MLGs. What do you have?

the burden of proof isn't on me. you have to prove its "too good" for less skilled players.

and just curious, what "pros" said this?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

the burden of proof isn't on me. you have to prove its "too good" for less skilled players.

and just curious, what "pros" said this?

Larry told me that he would ban Norfair. everyone else either mains MK or does good on that stage so they didn't have to worry about that stage. I talked to Tyrant and he was talking about how Larry was at a disadvantage because of the stage list. I talked to DSF about his win against ADHD and he would say that the stage list definitly helped him a lot (From what I remember him saying, he won him on Norfair).

When we were getting the players ready for MLG(using the MLG stage list in our Locals), TKD and AC (Two TJ pros) were talking about how those stages are not fit for competitive play. AC also told me after he beat me that I was at way too much of a disadvantage because the only way I had a chance was if I won my first match when using this stagelist. What I am basically saying is that players had more to worry about than Brinstar at MLG

 

[DeLux]

Should the competitive viability of a stage be considered in weighing whether another separate stage is competitively viable?

My gut says it shouldn't.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Should the competitive viability of a stage be considered in weighing whether another separate stage is competitively viable?

My gut says it shouldn't.

No, but this guy wants proof

 

[ADHD]

...As he stated.

Also, ADHD, seriously? You're really one to talk...

You are really going to compare my posts to Ripple's?

At least you can read mine and then pick points apart about them.. With Ripple's you don't even want to read them because they're one sentence of aggravation every time.

 

[slikvik]

@ Sunshade, The problem with that is that it is sometimes hard to determine which player is at a higher level than the other when both players are at a top level. Here are some where it is obvious who the better player was and yet they still lost:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bAXnlQP-o Gnes vs. D4ba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bAXnlQP-o NickRiddle vs. Slikvik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_H3qerLnA Vinnie vs. Shaky (?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZF4S2kBctE Ally vs Krystedez

@Ripple, This stage doesn't get played too often because alot of people ban it (unless there was an MLG stage list in which case most people banned Norfair)

1. Vinnie > Shaky
2. I've been counterpicking brinstar since 2007(melee too of course). Of course I should win there. I know the stage better and my character does notoriously well there.
3. Snake and Diddy(diddy not as much) suck on brinstar. The opponents counterpicked it for a reason.
4. Wario and G&W do very well on that stage. The players counterpicked it for a reason
5. You play diddy. Your motivation for making this thread is obvious. Your original post is also very weak