Why Brinstar Should be Banned (or Jungle Japes should be added to to the stage list)

[ぱみゅ]

That's why is important determine a criteria in order to allow/ban something.
"MK2gud" is not a good criteria. "Buff/Nerf characters" neither is.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's why is important determine a criteria in order to allow/ban something.
"MK2gud" is not a good criteria. "Buff/Nerf characters" neither is.

If MK is broken on Brinstar you should ban it. That applies to any stage, if someone is legitimately broken on a stage it should go.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If MK is broken on Brinstar you should ban it. That applies to any stage, if someone is legitimately broken on a stage it should go.

How do you define something is "broken"?
MK is VERY beatable in Brinstar, he just happens to have more tools than any other character to deal with the stage. That's a character feature, not a solid stage ban criteria.

 

[Tesh]

Well Red Ryu, we already have a clear precedent that implies we don't ban things in that way exactly. Look at MK only LGLs, chain-grab infinites and things of the sort. If only MK is broken on Brinstar, it would be easily possible to just ban the use of MK on Brinstar. Just like you might ban the use of Marth re-grabbing Ness or DDD re-grabbing Samus. If one specific combination is broken, you only have to ban that combination.

Its not something I completely agree with, but its there and its something that should be considered for the sake of consistency. Imagine the possibilities for stage legality if the most abusive combinations are removed.

 

[Ripple]

but then where do you stop at eliminating the most powerful strats?

ganon dittos on PTAD would be awesome and all but do you get where I'm going?

although, I do personally disagree with banning a stage because only 1 character is "too good" there

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What proof do we have that Bridge of eldin is broken? characters like Fox, Pit and Falco can just spam their lasers until the opponents eventully aproach. Even if these three characters are the only viable characters on this stage, that is more than you can say about Brinstar (and anyone who can powershield all of foxes lasors for 8 minutes streight deserves that win)

Lasers are not the problem. Walkoff camping is. Walkoff camping, as a strategy, is not bound to any character. It is something that every character can do, and therefore makes the cause clearly the stage/game mechanics. You can't ban the game mechanics, so the stage goes.

No. I think it's unfair to make a ground based character to play against an aerial based character in a stage that not only gives the aerial character an advantage, but also puts the grouded character at a disadvantage.

Relativity says hi. Specifically, that it's impossible to call any stage advantageous or disadvantageous for a matchup without relating it to the other stages. FD is disadvantageous for aerial characters because it's worse for them than other stages. This is a flaw in reasoning that shows up time and time again. It's always wrong. Every last time. FD is horrible for metaknight in most matchups. Why? Because it's worse than every other stage by a considerable margin in those matchups. There is no absolute. No, it is not smashville.

Also, speaking of which guys, I really need someone who understands this better than me to help explain the argument behind "Smashville is not neutral" to falln in a thread on AiB... You'll recognize it as the only thread of its kind which is actually open. He won't stop yapping on about it, and I'm honestly getting tired of explaining it to him.

The same can be said about every stage were a character can walk off camp. just choose a character with a fast spammable projectile and the stage is no longer broken. So why are those stages banned?

Wrong wrong wrong...

me? when BPC gets on he'll trash SMJ harder than I ever could. probably trash my argument too and tell me something I'm doing wrong

<3 Loving the respect and awe I get around here. You guys remind me why I do this thankless job. There's too much utter crap from Jebus to deal with your points, but they seemed legit at the first glance...

If I see this kind of logic again related to any topic smash related period I'm going to put a bullet in my head

Really? Time to load that gun, because people are complaining about warios on Brinstar. What raziek has said is true!

Brinstar is no different from Final Destination as some characters have slight advantages over each other in both stages.

Snake having a disadvantage with minds and nades at Brinstar is no different from Wario having nothing to protect him from grab releases at Final Destination.

If Brinstar goes, then it should be that stages like FD and Smashville go as well. The only true neutral is Battlefield.

Hey Ripple, remember what I said? This guy actually isn't that bad. This post would be pretty much 100% accurate if it wasn't for the last sentence, which is demonstrably false. But other than that? Good post. I'll give it an A- for content, C+ for mindset behind it (as stating that there is a "true neutral" demonstrates that you still have a ways to go).

Jebus I respect you as the best diddy in socal but your arguments in this thread have really been subpar.

WHAT? This guy is a top player? I thought he was some random scrub? WOW. This is hilarious. Yet another top player added to the list (M2K, ADHD, TKD) of "pros who have no idea what they're talking about". This is AWESOME.

You know what Ripple? You are right about one thing. I know for a fact I am not the only one here that wants to get this stage banned, yet I'm the only one debating here. **** it. Keep your dumb *** stage. Now, when someone gets timed out by a player on brinstar and see their 10$ go down the crapper, I'll be here to say I told you sooooo.

YES! HE LEAVES! FINALLY!

Those same characters that are good on brinstar will usually also be good on rainbow cruise (which is also legal)

...Dammit. Here we go again...

Link, Lucas, and Ness all will counterpick you to Brinstar (even if you're MK!). They will always ban RC.
Wario and G&W are good, but not incredible on RC.
Beyond that... Who is there? That's 3/6, 1/2... nice record, chap.

and as a side note I'm really on the fence about brinstar. Its at the point where its generally bad for the metagame (as a whole) but not technically ban able by MOST standards.

I like this post. I like this post a lot. Blacknight, have you looked at my thread about stage bans? Basically, the issue being that neither MK nor Brinstar is broken, but rather MK on Brinstar is broken, the solution is to ensure that you never have to go up against that unless you make a critical mistake. By having more stage bans.

I'm going to try this one last time.

The reason why I think Brinstar should be banned is because it gives way too much of an advantage to aerial based characters while at the same time, giving a huge disadvantage to ground based characters. There is no stage in the current rule set that does this besides Brinstar.

Nope. Wrong. See above. D-.

FD (the stage you guys are argueing about) may give grounded characters an advantage, but it never puts an aerial character at a disadvantage. Without any platforms to land on, aerial characters are taken away of an ADVANTAGE that they once had on platform stages. This is not to say that now, they are put at a disadvantage. They just lost an ADVANTAGE they might have had in some other stage. Basically, ground based characters gain an advantage while aerial based characters gain nothing (but are not put at a disadvantage)

Paper failed. See me after class.

How much more proof do you guys need?

Well, try proof that isn't ********.

Can we just ****ing ban Jebus?

PLEASE.

From this sub-forum at least >_>

I honestly think Jebus should lose his rights to post in competitive brawl and the stages forum because every time he opens his mouth, something incredibly stupid comes out. Not an insult, a truthful statement. His track record is akin to that of youtube creationists.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Nope. Wrong. See above. D-.



Paper failed. See me after class.



Well, try proof that isn't ********.

Seriously? This is what you do when you know you can't give any good responses. Also, walk-off camping is not a problem when your character (one with a good projectile) is forcing the walk off camper to approach

 

[DeLux]

In terms of relativity, the matchup can be seen as exisiting metaphysically without walk off camping. It's either neutral or slightly favors a character.

Then you can examine that same matchup through the perspective of a level with walk off camping. The character that camps the edge has a HUGE advantage.

So even by forcing approach, you're simply negating a HUGE advantageous situation. Then the matchup exists metaphysically as whatever it was before.

BUT WAIT?

Broken: What's to prevent the character with the good projectile from walk off camping AND forcing approach?

Nothing?

GG you just lost. Now you HAVE to approach a walk off camper. So regardless of the situation, someone is going to walk off camp.

This is so obviously different than giving aerial based characters an advantage on a level that is their own counter pick. Advantage does not equal auto win.

 

[-LzR-]

I agree with BPC and I am like WTF that SMJ is actually a good player o_o
Woah...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

In terms of relativity, the matchup can be seen as exisiting metaphysically without walk off camping. It's either neutral or slightly favors a character.

Then you can examine that same matchup through the perspective of a level with walk off camping. The character that camps the edge has a HUGE advantage.

So even by forcing approach, you're simply negating a HUGE advantageous situation. Then the matchup exists metaphysically as whatever it was before.

BUT WAIT?

Broken: What's to prevent the character with the good projectile from walk off camping AND forcing approach?

Nothing?

GG you just lost. Now you HAVE to approach a walk off camper. So regardless of the situation, someone is going to walk off camp.

This is so obviously different than giving aerial based characters an advantage on a level that is their own counter pick. Advantage does not equal auto win.

you can always just reflect the lasers. the only time someone can really kill another player with a throw is if they are standing right at the edge of the stage. If they do this however, they will be slowly increasing their damage meter every second they stand there. if this continues, They will lose because they have a higher percentage than their opponent.

 

[-LzR-]

No, walkoff camping isn't standing THAT far. Otherwise a simple attack at their shield would push them to the blastzone.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No, walkoff camping isn't standing THAT far. Otherwise a simple attack at their shield would push them to the blastzone.

Then in that case, there is no problem with making players approach. It's no different than planking on any other stage

 

[DeLux]

you can always just reflect the lasers. the only time someone can really kill another player with a throw is if they are standing right at the edge of the stage. If they do this however, they will be slowly increasing their damage meter every second they stand there. if this continues, They will lose because they have a higher percentage than their opponent.

Who said anything about lasers? I might be playing Olimar with a variable pikmin flight path. And all the grab range in the world.

Or I could be playing ROB and only shoot my Laser at you when it's angled so you can't reflect it back.

Curved Arrows Pit

DDD and I'll have my minions randomly attack you when you least expect it.

Snake and I'll grenade camp you.

you kind of get the idea

Either way, you're still forced to approach.

And it's laughable to think that you would believe BKB is THAT low. It's not.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

read the post above you

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Thanks for not listening to me BPC.

Stop with the snid comments, last warning.

 

[DeLux]

Planking is curbed by LGL's instituted by TO's.

A stage can exist in two categories: It has ledges or it has walkoffs to the blastzone.

Playing only stages with walkoffs would obviously remove the planking issue. But then we're stuck with that over centralization around camping the walk off.

On ledges, we can institute an LGL, which is an easily game measured statistic that can be used to curb planking on ledges. At some point, the planker is going to HAVE to get off the ledge or they will lose on LGL.

There is no in game enforceable measure against walk off camping other than removing the stage in question.

So there are not the same.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Planking is curbed by LGL's instituted by TO's.

A stage can exist in two categories: It has ledges or it has walkoffs to the blastzone.

Playing only stages with walkoffs would obviously remove the planking issue. But then we're stuck with that over centralization around camping the walk off.

On ledges, we can institute an LGL, which is an easily game measured statistic that can be used to curb planking on ledges. At some point, the planker is going to HAVE to get off the ledge or they will lose on LGL.

There is no in game enforceable measure against walk off camping other than removing the stage in question.

So there are not the same.

But not all tournaments enforce the LGL. look at Schools in Session. Besides, The BBR thinks that LGLs should not be enforced. Why is Planking allowed by the BBR and not walk off camping?

 

[-LzR-]

Planking is impossible to outright ban. Where do you draw the line between planking and edgecamping?

Walkoffcamping is easily stopped by banning all permanent walkoffs. Not a single problem with that.

 

[DeLux]

Because the BBR is wrong? Duh.

I agree. IF they are equatable in overcentralization in game play, then they should have equitable levels of restriction placed upon it.

However, to say that Planking is equitable to walk off camping is debatable in terms of brokeness.
Even in the ditto, walk off camping is broken. If you took the ditto for planking for someone like MK, it might not be as broken because it can be combated.

So an LGL is a fair compromise to completely banning something this isn't completely broken but has centralizing tendencies imo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

but then where do you stop at eliminating the most powerful strats?

ganon dittos on PTAD would be awesome and all but do you get where I'm going?

although, I do personally disagree with banning a stage because only 1 character is "too good" there

I disagree, if a character has a true broken counter pick it shouldn't be legal in the first place. Then that stage turns into picking that character and abusing the broken strat.

There is no reason to leave a stage like that legal because it will overcentralize the stage around that character there if they are too good, aka do this or lose or to an unacceptable level.

Also going to note, BBR has never agreed with a LGL, they said if it was truely needed they would ban MK. TO's took the initiative and put one in anyways.

Well Red Ryu, we already have a clear precedent that implies we don't ban things in that way exactly. Look at MK only LGLs, chain-grab infinites and things of the sort. If only MK is broken on Brinstar, it would be easily possible to just ban the use of MK on Brinstar. Just like you might ban the use of Marth re-grabbing Ness or DDD re-grabbing Samus. If one specific combination is broken, you only have to ban that combination.

Its not something I completely agree with, but its there and its something that should be considered for the sake of consistency. Imagine the possibilities for stage legality if the most abusive combinations are removed.

I don't support any of these banning on infinites, get infinited or have a sucky match-up, well sucks for them. Why not say MK can't gimp Link? Makes the MU a lot easier for Link if MK can't gimp him.

You could ban MK only on Brinstar like LGL or remove tactics that people hate or dislike, but I don't support it. The infinites are just, "I don't like it" is the reasoning to ban it which is exactly why I don't support it.

I mean if TO wants to put it in to improve attendance or somthing up to them, I guess it works.

I say ban it if it is broken or crashes the game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Planking is impossible to outright ban. Where do you draw the line between planking and edgecamping?

Walkoffcamping is easily stopped by banning all permanent walkoffs. Not a single problem with that.

Except you end up nerfing every ground character would get an advantage when counter picking that stage. You take away a lot of the ground characters best stages. Not only that but you also decide to keep stages that are broken for aerial characters. Does anyone else see a problem here?

 

[DeLux]

Except you end up nerfing every ground character would get an advantage when counter picking that stage. You take away a lot of the ground characters best stages. Not only that but you also decide to keep stages that are broken for aerial characters. Does anyone else see a problem here?

When you have a plethora of aerial based characters to choose from, I don't see an issue. That just means you ought to pick a more tourney viable character, aka one able to deal with a multitude of stage conditions. If that favors the aerial characters, that's what you have to go with.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't really see how grounded characters are good on walkoffs and walkoff camping is actually beating by aerial approaches.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I hate Brinstar.

That being said, I don't really think it should be banned. I can't recall many matches where I have played it and lost horribly/timed out/could do nothing due to camping.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

When you have a plethora of aerial based characters to choose from, I don't see an issue. That just means you ought to pick a more tourney viable character, aka one able to deal with a multitude of stage conditions. If that favors the aerial characters, that's what you have to go with.

Lets see. the Tier list goes MK, Snake, Diddy. If I main Diddy, then the only aerial character I could choose from without downgrading would be MK. This would be true for every character on the top of the tier list up until ICs.

@ Lzr, Walk-off camping is a strong ground technique because it is done on the ground and not the air. therefore, grounded characters would be naturally good at walk- off camping.

 

[-LzR-]

Lets see. the Tier list goes MK, Snake, Diddy. If I main Diddy, then the only aerial character I could choose from without downgrading would be MK. This would be true for every character on the top of the tier list up until ICs.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? It makes no sense. A tier list isn't the absolute truth.

Just because Diddy is better than Wario doesn't mean he is better in every MU in every single stage. Not even MK fits for that criteria.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What the hell is that supposed to mean? It makes no sense. A tier list isn't the absolute truth.

Just because Diddy is better than Wario doesn't mean he is better in every MU in every single stage. Not even MK fits for that criteria.

MK is the only character who can't get stage countered so he is the only character you can pick up if you don't want to be stage countered

 

[DeLux]

Or you pick up more than one character. Problem solved.

And MK does get stage countered. ICs vs. MK on FD is probably the only stage in which it's in favor of ICs.

 

[solecalibur]

I kinda like brinstar actually...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Or you pick up more than one character. Problem solved.

And MK does get stage countered. ICs vs. MK on FD is probably the only stage in which it's in favor of ICs.

MK can always just ban his worst stage. You also forget that when fighting an player's main on Brinstar, unless your character has an advantage on the stage and their character, you are always going to be at a disadvantage because you are playing against your opponent's best character with your second best character. there is really no advantage with picking up a character for that stage

 

[DeLux]

Saying "My skill level is less than my opponent's" is REALLY a bad argument in terms of competitive viability.

It is their counterpick. They are supposed to be at an advantage. Picking up a secondary ideally reduces the impact of that advantage, but it's an advantage none the less.

If we wanted EVERYTHING to be completely neutral, we'd do away with the counterpick system entirely. But we don't. We want to see how players can adapt to different styles of gameplay, because it adds to the level of skill depth required to succeed. If you can't adapt to a different style, that's not a problem with the style of play. It's a problem with your adaptability.


This is especially frustrating because I'm doing a lot of arguing for a stage that I think shouldn't be legal. But if we're trying to follow the reasons you outline, we should ban almost every stage because each gives certain characters different levels of advantages and disadvantages on a matchup case by case level.

My reasoning is much different than yours and it shows lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Or you pick up more than one character. Problem solved.

And MK does get stage countered. ICs vs. MK on FD is probably the only stage in which it's in favor of ICs.

I disagree, he still has the traits he need to not get grabbed and keep away when he need to, but it does help ICs a lot more and make it more even but I don't think it's in their favor necessarily.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You obviously do not see how much of an advantage this stage gives to certain characters and the disadvantages it gives to others (and in some cases both) if you are arguing against me. Also, when you beat any top player on brinstar with your secondary, then I will be more inclined to believe you. Until then, I will keep fighting to ban this stage

 

[Blacknight99923]

BPC I probably read it but it was inconsequential with my belief( I honestly can't even remember it(but I know I read it). I don't think your paradigm allows you to understand people like adhd, m2k, tkds arguments based on what stages they allow for tournament play(which is the only debate I will discuss here, not anything like a lgl or air time rule). I believe you can only currently understand the game in terms of logic, which is great on paper but loses its practicallity at a tournament when so many factors both seen, and unseen are at play, that the far more experienced players SUCH AS tkd DEHF ADHD can grasp that you or may not.

I will as a side note admit your logic is generally strong.

But I really suggest you stop labeling people as scrubs, when you really aren't in a place to be the arbiter of the metagame. Disagreement is fine, flaming quite honestly isn't.

@ everyone as a whole
whether you decide to ban brinstar, or not, really depends on what your competitive values are.

Do you favor a greater stage diversity? by allowing brinstar? Which (as far as I know)
isn't random and does not break any ethics soley based by logical backing.


Or do you favor a greater character diversity (like an fd or static based metagame), as more characters will generally prefer FD over brinstar, which more along the lines of (to quote pierce) "a set of skills that directly corrolate to defeating your opponent"

 

[TheLastCacely]

no they wouldn't. wario is hitable

clearly u have not played good warios.


and honestly i think BF, SV and FD, and yoshis should be legal.
all the other gimmicky stages are dumb and dont really support competition.

the points into having other stages legal are just silly lol

 

[Ripple]

You obviously do not see how much of an advantage this stage gives to certain characters and the disadvantages it gives to others (and in some cases both) if you are arguing against me. Also, when you beat any top player on brinstar with your secondary, then I will be more inclined to believe you. Until then, I will keep fighting to ban this stage

you seriously don't even know when someone is arguing against you.

and you seriously don't understand that just because YOUR character can't play on brinstar, you don't have the right to ban it.

red ryu: please close this thread this is utterly pointless as you can see by his post

 

[Judo777]

I never understand the point of closing threads anyway. If some people like talking in it why not?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I never understand the point of closing threads anyway. If some people like talking in it why not?

If people get out of line like they did in the Mario Bros. thread I close it to stop the trolling/flaming/rule breaking etc.

@Ripple: No. This thread hasn't devolved into circular logic, rule breaking, and true utter pointlessness.

This will stay open for now.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Then you go to RC. You gotta realize that some characters have more CP options than others. Just the way it goes in smash and games in general. Some characters are better on more maps/stages and some are only good on a few. If we went and banned Brinstar and Rainbow because they buff MK and Wario too much then we'd have to ban Halberd because of Snake. Sure Snake is still at an advantage on FD after that, but a CP is supposed to give one character an advantage.

inb4JebusmakestheMKgetsafreewinnomatterwhatonhisCPstatement

Well MK isn't unstoppable on RC. Just because he can time out people more efficiently on the stage doesn't make it an instant win. The other person just needs to either play safer and more conservative or get a pocket meta/wario for that CP. Neither is he on Brinstar since the close blast zones only emphasizes his light weight. Sure he gets sharking when the lava isn't up, but sharking anywhere really is defeated by simply jumping up onto a platform. And exactly how bad a position is that when you have time to jump to another position as he either jumps back up through the stage or shuttle loops back up.

*I'm not sure if any of this came out as flaming but I'm not trying to <3*

 

[Life]

BPC I probably read it but it was inconsequential with my belief( I honestly can't even remember it(but I know I read it). I don't think your paradigm allows you to understand people like adhd, m2k, tkds arguments based on what stages they allow for tournament play(which is the only debate I will discuss here, not anything like a lgl or air time rule). I believe you can only currently understand the game in terms of logic, which is great on paper but loses its practicallity at a tournament when so many factors both seen, and unseen are at play, that the far more experienced players SUCH AS tkd DEHF ADHD can grasp that you or may not.

Name some.