Why Brinstar Should be Banned (or Jungle Japes should be added to to the stage list)

[Life]

A problem? No. But a good stage? No. Certainly most (all?) other stages are still better.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Why? Nothing has been said that can even begin to convince anyone that this stage should continue to remain legal

 

[Life]

ORLY? Last time I checked, you've been on the losing end for the whole thread.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

You do know that regardless of the grab release, the Wario-Snake matchup is considered 50-50 or even 55-45 Wario, right?

Also, you also realize that if people's grab release vs. Wario was that broken, Wario would not be one of the top 10 characters? There is something known as aerial mobility and Wario's aerial mobility in many ways prevents grabs. I cannot think of a top Wario who actually gets grabbed often.

You have seen these 3 sets, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlaXKQVC5E
Look through the threads before you throw out the "I Know everything and everyone agrees with me because I am right" logic.

In terms of the actual issue in this thread, aka Brinstar, I have one simple solution:

Increase the amount of bans per player to 2, Characters who have poor aerial mobility can ban Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

can you also post the match where ally beats gluttony with his Falcon
EDIT:I thought he won a match with falcon


@InferiorityComplex, I think Red ryu is still waiting for his answer

 

[Ripple]

not one person has ever agreed with you AND GIVEN SUPPORT as to why

ever think about that SMJ?

how about in ANY other thread you ever come up with?

you have a terrible philosophy as to what should be banned and how this game should be played and not one player has ever agreed with you.

go take a couple philosophy classes, get educated in arguing, and not using strawmans since you use those like crazy. and then come back

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You know, people keep referencing Tyrant vs Gnes, I'm pretty sure I can beat people better than me in my area if they SD'd twice in a set at 0%.

Or apparently not abusing what people are claiming.

I'm not taking a side, but there is a whole is using that as reference saying it's not broken.

That is all

 

[Ripple]

can you also post the match where ally beats gluttony with his Falcon?

you mean this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZxgC-XhQOc&feature=related

spoiler alert: Ally loses

 

[Ripple]

That is all

this doesn't help your argument at all once again

****ing wasted my 4000 post on this ****

 

[Blacknight99923]

Jebus I respect you as the best diddy in socal but your arguments in this thread have really been subpar.


Its possible brinstar is bad overall for the metagame, but in all honesty I think the bigger problem is that brinstar is one of metaknights counterpicks (amoung many) that give him a large(er rofl) advantage over the majority of the cast.

I'd honesty just support just removing your ability to ban a stage on your opponents counterpick. you ARE allowed to switch.

No matter what you do, unless you ditto, you will ALWAYS have a disadvantage on metaknights counterpick game 2 (if you use the same character as game 1) if the metaknight is counterpicking correctly. unless you are far more talented then your opponent you WILL lose on his CP. I honestly think just allowing players to cp wherever they want unhindered would be a superior decision in general.

tl;dr let people cp mk to fd or RC if you are G&W ROFL, banning his cps won't do jack

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You know what Ripple? You are right about one thing. I know for a fact I am not the only one here that wants to get this stage banned, yet I'm the only one debating here. **** it. Keep your dumb *** stage. Now, when someone gets timed out by a player on brinstar and see their 10$ go down the crapper, I'll be here to say I told you sooooo.

 

[Ripple]

You know what Ripple? You are right about one thing. I know for a fact I am not the only one here that wants to get this stage banned, yet I'm the only one debating here. **** it. Keep your dumb *** stage. Now, when someone gets timed out by a player on brinstar and see their 10$ go down the crapper, I'll be here to say I told you sooooo.

so now time outs aren't a ligitimate way to win? LOLZ

c ya SMJ

 

[Razmakazi]

tbh, brinstar is stupid. it basically has to do with MK since he can just shark the entire time. MKs hardly ever lose here.

basically if stages like Onett or green greens (albeit it's already dumb) and shadow moses (albeit already dumb haha) get completely RUINED b/c of one character, DDD, then a stage that constantly forces you in the air vs mk or has it so that MK never actually has to play ABOVE or ON the stage that much is ********.

even when you can't shark b/c of lava it's the lava that makes ppl have to be in the air vs MK which is still dumb.

so yeah my argument revolves completely around mk but that's just the way it is. brinstar + MK = stupid.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

You do realize you can just ban brinstar on their CP and you don't have to deal with a stage you hate so badly. So what if its a stage that might even make the MU 100-0? MK vs Snake on Halberd? Really bad MU there, but it always gets banned. Same thing going on here.

Lern2BanCPs.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Those same characters that are good on brinstar will usually also be good on rainbow cruise (which is also legal)

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Simple solutions:

Either:

1.
Add another ban, make it so people can ban 2 stages, (such as, vs. Snake I would ban FD and Halberd, or vs. MK I would ban RC and Brinstar)

2.
Win the first game so you can lose the 2nd match on some counterpick and win on your own. There is a reason why there are "neutrals" and "counterpicks"

 

[Ripple]

You do realize you can just ban brinstar on their CP and you don't have to deal with a stage you hate so badly. So what if its a stage that might even make the MU 100-0? MK vs Snake on Halberd? Really bad MU there, but it always gets banned. Same thing going on here.

Lern2BanCPs.

you can't just say "strike brinstar and you'll never have this happen to you"

because what if they don't play wario game 1? you base your strike off who they played first. say you ban FD becuase they played falco. now all of a sudden they are MK on brinstar. problem not averted.

Those same characters that are good on brinstar will usually also be good on rainbow cruise (which is also legal)

which isn't inherently a problem

 

[DMG]

Wario's grab release has to do with the fact that the character can lift him up off the ground (or the fact that you jumped while getting pummeled which is entirely your fault) and less to do with what ever stage you are playing on. He is not at a disadvantage against any grounded character that he can go even with on any other stage (the only exception is probably DDD. In fact, it might benefite him because of his chaingrabs on other characters). I think he might even get some advantageous MUs here. DK and wolf come to mind. Falco, Diddy and Fox will always do significantly worse on brinstar than in any other stage in most cases. Sooooooooo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4

EDIT: @ LUX, Spamming lasers against a character that is walk off caming until one hits will force him to approach uless he wants to get timed out. Thank You timer. for once you favor grounded characters. But wait. The stage is banned

Walkoff stages tend to be overcentralized on keepaway gameplay in general. Sometimes circle camping, othertimes outmaneuvering through other means. They tend not to be healthy for the game.

Most characters who can grab release wario have an advantage against him on almost every stage. this again has nothing to do with platforms. even on a platform stages, if he gets grabbed on a platform, there will be no platform on top of that platform to save him from his bad air release.

A lot of characters can grab release him. The characters who have the advantage on Wario are those who are complete hell to approach because of walls that frame trap him under nearly any reasonable circumstances, or walls that have significant enough range to be implied threats strong enough to limit realistic approaches from the character. Marth, MK, Peach, Dedede for example. The problem with those characters isn't really the grab release, but rather the walling capability. The only character I can really think of that really does well against Wario specifically because of grab release is Shiek, and that's because she has to rely on that/combos from Ftilt or jab into grab to get the kill.

Peach has a grab release against wario and an advantage (also, try beating peach on BF with wario). Marth, grab release and slight advantage. Cptn. Falcon, yoshi, shiek, and Snake, MUs are even because of the grab release.

DK and Ganondorf, disadvantage because despite having a grab release, wario can chain grab them to rediculus percentages. In most of these MUs, having platforms won't really change the MU (and in some cases it might make it worse) so you saying that he benifites from having platforms is just dumb. It might help out in some MUs, but not all. So, Once again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4

Peach and Marth win. Not because of grab release, but because of their walling capabilities.

The other characters some of them approach even because of grab release, but it's other tools that also come into play. Shiek can do well because of her ground control and mobility, as well as speedy attacks that tend to trade or stuff Wario attacks head on. Snake is not even because of grab release: he's actually not killing Wario drastically lower than normal through grab release unless you are near the edge, his move is fresh, and your DI is bad or the stage boundaries are incredibly small.

DK and Ganon would still lose to Wario even if he couldn't CG them. Actually, DK might be able to go even if he wasn't ***** by getting grabbed in that matchup, but Ganondorf would still lose solidly.

Wario benefits from platforms, but it does depend on the character and the layout of the platforms. Lylat for example is really good against Peach, where as Battlefield is a bit more neutral. YI is very bad for Wario against Peach because the platform gets in the way more than it helps. Smashville tends to be good, unless it's a character that doesn't really matter if platforms are in the way AKA Marth.

WRONG!



THAT'S IT! you get DMG, quik, malcom, krys, in here to back up your claim. because I'm ****ing sick of your arguing. claiming that platforms don't change match up, or hell, claiming it makes them worse, with wario is the most bull **** I've ever heard.

and implying that ganon would have an advantage if it weren't for the CG is utterly, utterly, ridiculous



you said this, THIS IS FALSE! you named a couple of characters. that does not mean a majority of them. if a majority of them had an advantage over wario on almost every stage he would not be so high up on the tier list. I would say think before you speak but you have no idea how to think logically.

Wario beats luigi, mario, zelda ( and she has lighting kick), link, bowser, jiggs, ike, PT, rob, sonic, and maybe diddy.

he does not lose to a MAJORITY of characters

To be fair, a lot of those advantages are not very large. Sonic and Ike for example are only 6:4 at worst. They can definitely go even or 55:45 with Wario, and Sonic obv can have the advantage on something like YI.


Platforms change the dynamic of matchups for Wario. Both in positive and negative ways. Platforms add situations Wario can pressure and help him escape from grab release ******, but they can also impede your approaches. Marth for example is very annoying to approach on BF with Wario, and it's what I've banned quite abit against Mike Haze or Roy R whenever I play them. However after thinking about it, compared to FD, BF looks a lot funner to deal with lol. FD can be a nightmare for Wario depending on the character, the only main reason I don't ban it in most of my sets is because I have a fairly reliable Diddy that I leave FD open so I can get a free CP against people lol. Poltergust LOL don't pick FD no more son

@ Ripple, most of the characters that you mentioned don't even have a legit grab release on wario. It only works if the wario jumps out of the grab. Go ahead and ask those people to come here. I know I'm right.

Actually most of them do. Shiek/Ganon/CF/Zelda/Shiek/Marth/Peach/Dedede (after a running grab, not hard to land)/Charizard/DK/Snake/Bowser/Ike/Wario/ZSS/anyone on an edge or over breaking terrain.

Idk why he mentioned Mario, Luigi, etc. But yeah

You do know that regardless of the grab release, the Wario-Snake matchup is considered 50-50 or even 55-45 Wario, right?

Also, you also realize that if people's grab release vs. Wario was that broken, Wario would not be one of the top 10 characters? There is something known as aerial mobility and Wario's aerial mobility in many ways prevents grabs. I cannot think of a top Wario who actually gets grabbed often.

You have seen these 3 sets, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlaXKQVC5E
Look through the threads before you throw out the "I Know everything and everyone agrees with me because I am right" logic.

In terms of the actual issue in this thread, aka Brinstar, I have one simple solution:

Increase the amount of bans per player to 2, Characters who have poor aerial mobility can ban Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise.

Well actually it depends on what you mean by "get grabbed a lot". Certain matchups even when they have a grab release, you can play and get grabbed because the consequences are small. I don't mind getting grabbed by Snake sometimes, because it means if he grab releases me he'll do less damage than a Dthrow + read, or do less damage than a Ftilt punish. Or getting grabbed by MK isn't that bad compared to a Nair or something.

tbh, brinstar is stupid. it basically has to do with MK since he can just shark the entire time. MKs hardly ever lose here.

basically if stages like Onett or green greens (albeit it's already dumb) and shadow moses (albeit already dumb haha) get completely RUINED b/c of one character, DDD, then a stage that constantly forces you in the air vs mk or has it so that MK never actually has to play ABOVE or ON the stage that much is ********.

even when you can't shark b/c of lava it's the lava that makes ppl have to be in the air vs MK which is still dumb.

so yeah my argument revolves completely around mk but that's just the way it is. brinstar + MK = stupid.

Shadow Moses is ruined not entirely because of 1 character, but because of garbage stage mechanics. Walls that let people DI and tech to live forever? Badddd

 

[Blacknight99923]

mk vs snake on halberd isn't a death match up by any means though.

and no one is forcing you to go mk

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ripple, Jebus, calm down.

This will be locked if people can't be civil.

 

[Blacknight99923]

and as a side note I'm really on the fence about brinstar. Its at the point where its generally bad for the metagame (as a whole) but not technically ban able by MOST standards.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

and as a side note I'm really on the fence about brinstar. Its at the point where its generally bad for the metagame (as a whole) but not technically ban able by MOST standards.

This is exactly how I feel about it.

Gnes' match showed exactly what people were fearing, but at the same time there is the not technically broken aspects about it, that and I fell like MK is the true problem with this, Cruise and some other stages.

 

[Ripple]

Ripple, Jebus, calm down.

This will be locked if people can't be civil.

can you honestly tell me that by reading SMJ's posts that you wouldn't have responded the same way ( if you weren't a mod). I mean, look at what he posts. it's complete garbage and you know it. he thinks he wins when everyone disagrees with him.

common courtesy did not work with him and has not worked with him. he doesn't listen to anyone ever.

he'll just keep making threads if we ignore him. and posts if we respond to him giving his threads seeming validity. its terrible, the only thing to do is education by force

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm a mod and I still acted out on Grim when he tried to make a thread showing why Mario Bros. was a legit stage, though respectfully. My method, I stopped replying to that thread when I realized people weren't even bothering to listen to me and the multiple upon multiple amount of people that were telling people they had played on the stage and that it should stay banned forever without a possibly of parole.

Either way the points were made, but we don't need to be nasty about it. I mean people disagree with me on stuff but I try to stay respectful when people don't call me a tard or something like that.

The comments at the end from both of you weren't needed, I'm leaving this open to see if good discussion can take place, if people act poorly again I will lock this thread.

Though, I am gonna take more part in this since while I am on the fence, I don't like people bringing up poor reasoning or evidence on either side.

 

[Ripple]

well, I've made my case. if jebus would like to post a LOGICAL reason as to why it should be banned that's more based on something that can be backed up and not debunked then I'd be all for it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm going to try this one last time.

The reason why I think Brinstar should be banned is because it gives way too much of an advantage to aerial based characters while at the same time, giving a huge disadvantage to ground based characters. There is no stage in the current rule set that does this besides Brinstar.

FD (the stage you guys are argueing about) may give grounded characters an advantage, but it never puts an aerial character at a disadvantage. Without any platforms to land on, aerial characters are taken away of an ADVANTAGE that they once had on platform stages. This is not to say that now, they are put at a disadvantage. They just lost an ADVANTAGE they might have had in some other stage. Basically, ground based characters gain an advantage while aerial based characters gain nothing (but are not put at a disadvantage)

Brinstar is different though. Brinstar not only gives an advantage to aerial based characters, but also puts a lot of ground based characters at a disadvantage. It can turn what was once a 50-50 MU into a counter/hard counter. It forces players who already main tournament viable characters to pick up another character or risk losing on their opponent's CP. As shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UolkDnxKiCw, this stage does not take player skill into account. And even though you guys say it's completely avoidable, I have never played ore seen one match where either player has not gotten burned atleast once by the lava (or acid)

How much more proof do you guys need?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well I wouldn't they don't lose anything, because I can safely say G&W on FD for Lucario is a lot easier than lets say, Battlefield, because of the lack of platforms. Even with Wario he can't pull his run away stuff that makes the MU hard for Lucario if Lucario has to chase him down, platforms help his run away a lot which is why Lucario loses the match-up a bit, along with some other little reasons.

I think what you are trying to say is that Brinstar gives a much larger advantage than what FD gives for other characters, which to some extent I can agree with, ICs and maybe Diddy being the only maybe cases and even then I don't think it's that busted since it is playing RPS over Brinstar where the layout itself it making it pretty difficult to hit people playing like in Gnes' match.

However there are questions about how hittable a person is in general on Brinstar and to me I think the answer really comes down to the character doing it, in which case I see MK as the root of most of our current stage problems.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Well I wouldn't they don't lose anything, because I can safely say G&W on FD for Lucario is a lot easier than lets say, Battlefield, because of the lack of platforms. Even with Wario he can't pull his run away stuff that makes the MU hard for Lucario if Lucario has to chase him down, platforms help his run away a lot which is why Lucario loses the match-up a bit, along with some other little reasons.

I think what you are trying to say is that Brinstar gives a much larger advantage than what FD gives for other characters, which to some extent I can agree with, ICs and maybe Diddy being the only maybe cases and even then I don't think it's that busted since it is playing RPS over Brinstar where the layout itself it making it pretty difficult to hit people playing like in Gnes' match.

However there are questions about how hittable a person is in general on Brinstar and to me I think the answer really comes down to the character doing it, in which case I see MK as the root of most of our current stage problems.

The way you say it. It seems like the platforms are giving those characters an ADVANTAGE. Does it mean that they are at a disadvantage with out them. No. It just means they no longer have that ADVANTAGE.

 

[Ghostbone]

Uhh

Advantages and Disadvantages are relative.

Your argument is invalid.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Uhh

Advantages and Disadvantages are relative.

Your argument is invalid.

Could you please explain further?

 

[DeLux]

I'm going to try this one last time.

The reason why I think Brinstar should be banned is because it gives way too much of an advantage to aerial based characters while at the same time, giving a huge disadvantage to ground based characters. There is no stage in the current rule set that does this besides Brinstar.

FD (the stage you guys are argueing about) may give grounded characters an advantage, but it never puts an aerial character at a disadvantage. Without any platforms to land on, aerial characters are taken away of an ADVANTAGE that they once had on platform stages. This is not to say that now, they are put at a disadvantage. They just lost an ADVANTAGE they might have had in some other stage. Basically, ground based characters gain an advantage while aerial based characters gain nothing (but are not put at a disadvantage)

Brinstar is different though. Brinstar not only gives an advantage to aerial based characters, but also puts a lot of ground based characters at a disadvantage. It can turn what was once a 50-50 MU into a counter/hard counter. It forces players who already main tournament viable characters to pick up another character or risk losing on their opponent's CP. As shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UolkDnxKiCw, this stage does not take player skill into account. And even though you guys say it's completely avoidable, I have never played ore seen one match where either player has not gotten burned atleast once by the lava (or acid)

How much more proof do you guys need?

Uhhhhhhhhhhh.......

The game exists in a binary of a player vs. player. Inherently you can't give one an advantage without it being a disadvantageous to the other party. They are entities compared in relation to one another. It's impossible to say, give one character an advantage and it have no affect on the other player. Your logic is flawed and refuted down to the very nature of the competitive system.

You're SUPPOSED to be at a disadvantage on your opponent's counter pick. Otherwise there'd be no point in counterpicking at all. If your character can't hack it with the stage list, then it's obviously not as tourney viable as you seem to think it is. Pick up a secondary (metaknight) and your problems are solved aka add to your level of overall skill in the game. You're limiting yourself with some arbitrary honor code that's like, "I will only main one character even if it's to the detriment of my tourney success." It's not the level's fault, it's your fault for not adapting to the accepted rulesset.

So when you get CP'd to Brinstar, just smile. Pick Metaknight, and Scrooge, Shark, Shuttle the **** out of people. Otherwise you're arbitrarily putting yourself at a disadvantage for no real good reason. The level doesn't do anything but give advantages to the characters that pick it. You'll get the opportunity to do the same on your counterpick.

For the record: I don't think Brinstar should be legal for different reaons. But it's not because it's not competitively sound. It definitely passes that test.

 

[Ripple]

you can only say aerial characters don't lose anything if the first game of a set is played on FD. then they can't lose anything. but the first game is never played on FD by an aerial character so in essence they DO lose something. assuming we started on brinstar I could technically say that ground based characters are never put at a disadvantage here but that when they go somewhere else it gives them an advantage.

do you see that flaw? you can't really say aerial characters don't lose anything by playing on fd.

and I told you not to mention that video before. gnes lost because he was sick, I even gave you the link showing he completely forfeit because he wasn't feeling well.

For the record: I don't think Brinstar should be legal for different reaons. But it's not because it's not competitively sound. It definitely passes that test.

you should PM me what that is


I'll post more later, I'm tired

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Uhhhhhhhhhhh.......

The game exists in a binary of a player vs. player. Inherently you can't give one an advantage without it being a disadvantageous to the other party. They are entities compared in relation to one another. It's impossible to say, give one character an advantage and it have no affect on the other player. Your logic is flawed and refuted down to the very nature of the competitive system.

You're SUPPOSED to be at a disadvantage on your opponent's counter pick. Otherwise there'd be no point in counterpicking at all. If your character can't hack it with the stage list, then it's obviously not as tourney viable as you seem to think it is. Pick up a secondary (metaknight) and your problems are solved aka add to your level of overall skill in the game. You're limiting yourself with some arbitrary honor code that's like, "I will only main one character even if it's to the detriment of my tourney success." It's not the level's fault, it's your fault for not adapting to the accepted rulesset.

So when you get CP'd to Brinstar, just smile. Pick Metaknight, and Scrooge, Shark, Shuttle the **** out of people. Otherwise you're arbitrarily putting yourself at a disadvantage for no real good reason. The level doesn't do anything but give advantages to the characters that pick it. You'll get the opportunity to do the same on your counterpick.

What I am saying is that the advantage comes from the character choosing a stage and not from the disadvantage that the opponent has when choosing the stage. Here is a really good example:

two people are fighting. It is an even match.Then one gets handed a bat. the advantage gained from the fighter that is holding the weapon now puts the match up in his favor. The only reason the other fighter is at a disadvantage is because he doesn't have a weapon.

Now what Brinstar does is not only does it give one fighter a weapon, but it breakes the other fighers arm. So now not only does he have to fight without a weapon, but he also has to fight with a broken arm. Do you see the porblem now?

Also, picking up a secondary means that you will most likely have to fight a player that has more expiriance with his main than you will probably have with your secondary. Unless you are that much more skilled than your opponent, I would suggest sticking to your main. I bet I would have a better chance with my Diddy against Tyrant's MK on brinstar than I would ever have if I played against him with my MK.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Can we just ****ing ban Jebus?

PLEASE.

From this sub-forum at least >_>

 

[Ghostbone]

Could you please explain further?

An advantage for one character corresponds with a disadvantage to the other.

FD severely disadvantages G&W compared to Brinstar, and heavily advantages Diddy compared to Brinstar.

And vice versa.

When looking at whether a stage helps a character or not you look at it in comparison to other stages.

So basically FD does severely limit aerial characters, just as Brinstar severely limits grounded characters.

 

[Ripple]

two people are fighting. It is an even match.Then one gets handed a bat. the advantage gained from the fighter that is holding the weapon now puts the match up in his favor. The only reason the other fighter is at a disadvantage is because he doesn't have a weapon.

Now what Brinstar does is not only does it give one fighter a weapon, but it breaks the other fighters arm. So now not only does he have to fight without a weapon, but he also has to fight with a broken arm. Do you see the problem now?

you just described the CP pick system in a very odd way. this is perfectly legal.

certain times when you cp someone you have the choice to give yourself a bat, brake the other person's arm, or guess what? both.

Also, picking up a secondary means that you will most likely have to fight a player that has more expiriance with his main than you will probably have with your secondary. Unless you are that much more skilled than your opponent, I would suggest sticking to your main. I bet I would have a better chance with my Diddy against Tyrant's MK on brinstar than I would ever have if I played against him with my MK.

then main MK. you can't honestly tell me that because brinstar makes certain characters unviable in certain match ups and one of them happens to be your main, that you feel that it should be banned.

seriously jebus, this was the worst thing you've posted thus far. you described problems you have with the CP system, not brinstar

 

[-LzR-]

This thread is incredibly entertaining to read. Cookies to you Ripple for not giving up!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can we just ****ing ban Jebus?

PLEASE.

From this sub-forum at least >_>

No, don't suggest it again when it's not your place to make that decision.

An advantage for one character corresponds with a disadvantage to the other.

FD severely disadvantages G&W compared to Brinstar, and heavily advantages Diddy compared to Brinstar.

And vice versa.

When looking at whether a stage helps a character or not you look at it in comparison to other stages.

So basically FD does severely limit aerial characters, just as Brinstar severely limits grounded characters.

Yes but we don't give one set of characters a good stage to offset another getting a good stage, we ask how it does for the cast at large and whether a character is broken or not for a good percentage of the cast.

If some characters are indeed broken on Brinstar, then ban the stage, if characters are broken on FD you ban the stage. Still look at how this has turned out, FD has not broken competitive play, even in japan Ice Climbers lose on the stage, in the US people like Jerm still beat Swordgard on FD. A good set of characters can beat ICs here.

Brinstar on the other hand, seems to have more issues. A lot more character are limited here across the cast as opposed to FD where the limitations are more of a result of those characters needing platforms. Where are Brinstar is more about the stage layout making things hard for a larger portion of the cast.

And again I do feel like MK is the main problem with most stage legality questions.

 

[Tesh]

To build on what Ryu said, some of you need to understand that being on opposite ends of the spectrum does not make FD and Brinstar equidistant from neutral. FD sure favors ground characters perhaps more than any other stage and Brinstar has a similar effect for aerial characters. But FD doesn't buff ground characters as much as Brinstar buffs aerial characters.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pretty much.

The question should be, "should this stage be legal?" Not, "does this help out characters that do poorly on FD/ground stages?"