Why Brinstar Should be Banned (or Jungle Japes should be added to to the stage list)

[Ripple]

You are really going to compare my posts to Ripple's?

At least you can read mine and then pick points apart about them.. With Ripple's you don't even want to read them because they're one sentence of aggravation every time.

you don't even read my posts because they are all longer than 1 sentence. go ahead ADHD, find more than one post of mine that is only 1 sentence relating to this thread.

in the mean time, I suggest you don't be a ****

 

[SaveMeJebus]

1. Vinnie > Shaky
2. I've been counterpicking brinstar since 2007(melee too of course). Of course I should win there. I know the stage better and my character does notoriously well there.
3. Snake and Diddy(diddy not as much) suck on brinstar. The opponents counterpicked it for a reason.
4. Wario and G&W do very well on that stage. The players counterpicked it for a reason
5. You play diddy. Your motivation for making this thread is obvious. Your original post is also very weak

Your motivation for keeping this stage is also obvious since you main Wario.

 

[vato_break]

I'm a metaknight main and personally i don't like this stage. Why? well.. I feel like the hazards are too big of a deal when they shouldn't be. It gives aerial characters TOO much of an advantage it puts them in the '****' catagory. I don't think CP's should give characters Autowins(mk) but, instead give characters slightly to solid advantages. If we allow brinstar i think we should also allow other auto win stages as well.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm a metaknight main and personally i don't like this stage. Why? well.. I feel like the hazards are too big of a deal when they shouldn't be. It gives aerial characters TOO much of an advantage it puts them in the '****' catagory. I don't think CP's should give characters Autowins(mk) but, instead give characters slightly to solid advantages. If we allow brinstar i think we should also allow other auto win stages as well.

Seriously, I have never played or seen one match where the Lava doesn't hurt someone at least once

 

[NickRiddle]

Couple of things.

1. Brinstar should be legal. You have a ban for a reason.
2. ZSS is considered an "aerial-based character", yet she can lose to "ground-based characters" here.
3. Shaky vs. Judge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svz6rkvxcWk
Ness beating MK on Brinstar? Clearly broken for MK.
/crappyargumentaboutasgoodasyours

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Couple of things.

1. Brinstar should be legal. You have a ban for a reason.
2. ZSS is considered an "aerial-based character", yet she can lose to "ground-based characters" here.
3. Shaky vs. Judge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svz6rkvxcWk
Ness beating MK on Brinstar? Clearly broken for MK.
/crappyargumentaboutasgoodasyours

1. Bridge of Eldin should be legal. You have a ban for a reason
2. who?
3.One video against the four that I gave you. Good arguement

 

[NickRiddle]

1. Bridge of Eldin should be legal. You have a ban for a reason
2. who?
3.One video against the four that I gave you. Good argument*

1. Bridge of Eldin will come down to whomever the loser of the previous match chooses vs. DDD, Pikachu, or Yoshi. CGing requires almost 0 skill, and walk-off deaths will be guaranteed... Unless you're telling me Fox can **** Pikachu on that stage due to "out-camping" him.

2. ZSS = Zero Suit Samus

3. Did you really just say that? I just found one off the top of my head. Let's look at the videos you showed me.

First group:
Wario vs. MK: Clearly showing an aerial-based character beating a ground-based character, except not really.

Falcon vs. Anybody: CF is aerial-based? And Wario/MK aren't? News to me. Also, these vids are of Ally's Falcon. Player skill clearly doesn't matter though.

Snake vs. Wario: Again, the ground-based one wins... And, once again, it's Ally.

GW vs. Ness: Really? Ness's worst of second worst MU? Oh, wait, it was because of the stage. Shaky obviously won the set on stages better suited for him. Also, Shaky CPed the stage, and lost. The one video out of the first ground that is air beating ground, even though Ness is really air-based... vs. his worst MU.

Second group:
D4ba vs. Gnes: (Wrong link there btw.) OH EM GEE! DIDDY LOSING TO MK ON ONE OF DIDD'S WORST STAGES, AND MK'S BEST STAGES? BAN IT! IT'S BECAUSE MK IS AERIAL-BASED, AND DIDDY IS GROUND BASED!

Slikvik vs. me: ZSS is air-based, and it's Wario's best level. Once more, not supporting your case.

Vinnie vs. Shaky: Same match from the first group.

Ally vs. Krystedez: Same match from the first group.




So, vids where "ground-based characters" win, or where terrible MUs are being played on the "aerial based character's" best stages prove it should be banned.

Yup.

Yo man, FD shouldn't be legal. I've seen DDD/ICs/Falco/ DESTROY people there. It shouldn't be legal, because it's like one of their best stages, and they shouldn't be allowed to have a free win like that.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

1. Bridge of Eldin will come down to whomever the loser of the previous match chooses vs. DDD, Pikachu, or Yoshi. CGing requires almost 0 skill, and walk-off deaths will be guaranteed... Unless you're telling me Fox can **** Pikachu on that stage due to "out-camping" him.

2. ZSS = Zero Suit Samus

3. Did you really just say that? I just found one off the top of my head. Let's look at the videos you showed me.

First group:
Wario vs. MK: Clearly showing an aerial-based character beating a ground-based character, except not really.

Falcon vs. Anybody: CF is aerial-based? And Wario/MK aren't? News to me. Also, these vids are of Ally's Falcon. Player skill clearly doesn't matter though.

Snake vs. Wario: Again, the ground-based one wins... And, once again, it's Ally.

GW vs. Ness: Really? Ness's worst of second worst MU? Oh, wait, it was because of the stage. Shaky obviously won the set on stages better suited for him. Also, Shaky CPed the stage, and lost. The one video out of the first ground that is air beating ground, even though Ness is really air-based... vs. his worst MU.

Second group:
D4ba vs. Gnes: (Wrong link there btw.) OH EM GEE! DIDDY LOSING TO MK ON ONE OF DIDD'S WORST STAGES, AND MK'S BEST STAGES? BAN IT! IT'S BECAUSE MK IS AERIAL-BASED, AND DIDDY IS GROUND BASED!

Slikvik vs. me: ZSS is air-based, and it's Wario's best level. Once more, not supporting your case.

Vinnie vs. Shaky: Same match from the first group.

Ally vs. Krystedez: Same match from the first group.




So, vids where "ground-based characters" win, or where terrible MUs are being played on the "aerial based character's" best stages prove it should be banned.

Yup.

Yo man, FD shouldn't be legal. I've seen DDD/ICs/Falco/ DESTROY people there. It shouldn't be legal, because it's like one of their best stages, and they shouldn't be allowed to have a free win like that.

You are getting everything all mixed up. I wanted to make a list of matches on brinstar just to see what we could find. Sunshade mentioned how this would make no difference because it that wouldn't prove that the stage is broken. He told me to instead, look for videos where the players who were obviously better than their opponents still lost. That is what I did on the second list.

Also, even though people say the acid is completely avoidable, how come you never see a match where neither player gets hit by it?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

this is why.

you need to find out how many times brinstar is played on compared to every other single stage.

then you need to find records of when people played on brinstar but didn't record it.

then see who won with what character on that stage.

and if the match went to time.


you will never be able to do all that, people don't even tell me what character they used in tournaments. you think that you can find accurate data? you seriously have no chance

So you ask him to do something impossible for evidence.

Makes total sense.

You are really going to compare my posts to Ripple's?

At least you can read mine and then pick points apart about them.. With Ripple's you don't even want to read them because they're one sentence of aggravation every time.

He's posts a lot more of sustenance and put forward points. At least in this thread which is all that matters, there are times he is being brief but at least with the recent one he went into more detail later, even if I don't like it.

You however haven't posted here anything on the topic at hand.

you don't even read my posts because they are all longer than 1 sentence. go ahead ADHD, find more than one post of mine that is only 1 sentence relating to this thread.

in the mean time, I suggest you don't be a ****

Not gonna lie you have one the the first and one directed at Jebus just a little bit ago. Still clam down.

You are getting everything all mixed up. I wanted to make a list of matches on brinstar just to see what we could find. Sunshade mentioned how this would make no difference because it that wouldn't prove that the stage is broken. He told me to instead, look for videos where the players who were obviously better than their opponents still lost. That is what I did on the second list.

Also, even though people say the acid is completely avoidable, how come you never see a match where neither player gets hit by it?

Well you did and people don't find it broken.

The acid is avoidable, and if you do get hit by it once it's not a big deal, it's not like PTAD when getting hit around 60% at the earliest will kill you from cars. Actually when I have been Link here I've used it to help him recover.

 

[NickRiddle]

You are getting everything all mixed up. I wanted to make a list of matches on brinstar just to see what we could find. Sunshade mentioned how this would make no difference because it that wouldn't prove that the stage is broken. He told me to instead, look for videos where the players who were obviously better than their opponents still lost. That is what I did on the second list.Do you realize that you completely discredit those who won in those matches then? You also have to take into account the fact that on the second list, most of the time, it's either a bad MU, or it's a great stage for the one who CPed it. It's arguably MK's, GW's, and Wario's best stage.
Also, a couple of things.
Shaky isn't obviously better than Vinnie, or he would have won. It's Ness's best stage as well.
Ally's MK was trash in July.

Also, even though people say the acid is completely avoidable, how come you never see a match where neither player gets hit by it?... Seroiusly? Because your opponent can force you into it? How come you usually see people getting hit by Halberd's hazards when they give at least 5 seconds of warning before going off? Same thing.

Read the red.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Jebus' argument is getting worse and worse...

Banning Brinstar just isn't gonna happen. There are counters to any argument you can make about it. It all just comes down to TO preference anyhow. :/

 

[slikvik]

Your motivation for keeping this stage is also obvious since you main Wario.

no ****



either way, reasonable TO's aren't banning brinstar. Literally everyone in this thread has dismantled your garbage argument. Just call it a day and ask the mods to close this.

 

[DMG]

Couple of things.

1. Brinstar should be legal. You have a ban for a reason.
2. ZSS is considered an "aerial-based character", yet she can lose to "ground-based characters" here.
3. Shaky vs. Judge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svz6rkvxcWk
Ness beating MK on Brinstar? Clearly broken for MK.
/crappyargumentaboutasgoodasyours

Personally I find Shaky vs Judge to be a bad example of a match demonstrating that MK is reasonable on this particular stage. But that's just me I guess.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Stop asking for the thread to be closed. And if you do it, don't censor dodge.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@ Sunshade, The problem with that is that it is sometimes hard to determine which player is at a higher level than the other when both players are at a top level. Here are some where it is obvious who the better player was and yet they still lost:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UolkDnxKiCw&feature=related Gnes vs. D4ba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bAXnlQP-o NickRiddle vs. Slikvik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_H3qerLnA Vinnie vs. Shaky (?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZF4S2kBctE Ally vs Krystedez

@Ripple, This stage doesn't get played too often because alot of people ban it (unless there was an MLG stage list in which case most people banned Norfair)

1. No debate. Gnes is clearly a better player than D4ba. In this Match, not only was Gnes at an disadvantage because of this stage, but MK was given a huge advantage in the fact that he is able to Shark and Scrooge all while being able to refresh his kill moves. A stage shouldn't be allowed when the only way to beat a character there would be to ditto him. MK isn't broken. MK+ Brinstar=broken

2. Can't say much about this match since I know very little about ZSS. I do know that she can give Wario troubles on other stages

3. There is a reason why there was a question mark there. I didn't know who the better player was.

4. This video is only there because of the suggestion Sunshade gave me. Two aerial characters doesn't help any arguement

 

[Chuee]

Personally I find Shaky vs Judge to be a bad example of a match demonstrating that MK is reasonable on this particular stage. But that's just me I guess.

Yeah, mostly because Judge didn't even have a second stock lmao.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

no ****



either way, reasonable TO's aren't banning brinstar. Literally everyone in this thread has dismantled your garbage argument. Just call it a day and ask the mods to close this.

http://forum.germansmash.de/thread.php?threadid=14529&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=1



But yeah. And props to Jebus for not getting the difference between a stage where EVERY matchup is broken (Eldin) and a stage where a select few matchups are broken (Brinstar). The latter is why we have stage bans. The former is the only reason we ever ban stages.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think that Brinstar and Jungle Japes would make great counter picks if they are used in the same stage list. Both stages are Great at what they do. Brinstar is a great stage for characters who mostly play in the air. Jungle Japes is a great stage for characters who mostly play on the ground. Characters who are great in one are usually bad in the other (although, DK is great in both).

When you have both of these stages together, even a character like MK doesn't seem to have as much of an advantage as he used to. MK doesn't seem to be as great on Jungle Japes as he is on other stages. He may even have to worry about certain characters that can give him trouble there.

I honestly can't see how you can allow one of these stages and not the other. They both seem to go great together

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hey, don't look at me. I think Japes is totally legit. Gay as ****, but that's never been a good reason to ban a stage.

 

[NickRiddle]

You complain about sharking, then say that MK on Japes isn't broken? He can go under any platform and spam uair.
His drill-rush/dimensional cape to any of the 6 ledges is SUPER OP.
Dair to dent opponents back into the water is silly.
D-tilt from one of the side platforms practically forces an aerial approach, and how often do you really want to be above MK?
Not to mention that MK never really kills up, so the low ceiling doesn't bother him.

The stage is HUGE, and obviously promotes camping the side platforms if you have a good projectile.
If you are trying to approach your opponent who is on one of the side platforms you are ALWAYS at a HUGE disadvantage, for the sole reason that you have to jump while the opponent can shield to beat any options you have in the air. (Unless you're one of the four, I believe, characters with an air-grab.)
Getting hit into the water, into the Klap-Trap is always fair too.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

This thread should be used for the legalization of Jungle Japes when combined with Brinstar.

@NickRiddle,
1. He may be able to shark on Japes, but landing becomes a problem since he can't go through the main stage or the side platforms. He also risks getting dragged by the current or even spiked by the Klaptrap if he's not careful.
2. at least he can't go through the stage. Also, his ledge grabs will go up
3. Dair to gimp opponents in all the other stages is also silly
4. Not for characters with projectiles
5. One thing that benefits him on this stage
6. You have a problem with camping but not Sharking?
7. The same could be said about a strategy like Sharking(except the other way around).
8. Please don't get me started on what is "fair".

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Falco can also illusion under the stage going back and forth on japes, although we do have a LGL I guess to fix that.

I'd like it since Lucario would love the stage against King DDD.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I can honestly find more problems with japes than brinstar.

but I feel like this thread needs to discuss brinstar and thats it.

 

[Ghostbone]

Jungle Japes is fine.

Like BPC said some characters can be gay as **** there.

But MK can be gay as **** on SV as well, lol.

But they're not broken there.

Fun fact, everyone, including solimar and popo, can recover from being hit into the water between the left and middle platforms (and everything to the right of that). So it's not like gimping is super easy or anything here compared to other stages.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Is there any legitimate reason why Japes is banned?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well when the rule set committee left out japes that was really the only stage I thought deserved to be on there that was left out, possibly though.

People can do some pretty dumb stuff here and I haven't experienced it here.

 

[DeLux]

Without commenting on the competitive viability of Jungle Japes, this is why I would not allow it if I ever ran a tournament:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=295747


Also, same exact reasoning for why I wouldn't allow Brinstar either lol

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Without commenting on the competitive viability of Jungle Japes, this is why I would not allow it if I ever ran a tournament:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=295747


Also, same exact reasoning for why I wouldn't allow Brinstar either lol

What about G&W's Judgement or Peach pulling out a bomb?

 

[DMG]

You complain about sharking, then say that MK on Japes isn't broken? He can go under any platform and spam uair.
His drill-rush/dimensional cape to any of the 6 ledges is SUPER OP.
Dair to dent opponents back into the water is silly.
D-tilt from one of the side platforms practically forces an aerial approach, and how often do you really want to be above MK?
Not to mention that MK never really kills up, so the low ceiling doesn't bother him.

The stage is HUGE, and obviously promotes camping the side platforms if you have a good projectile.
If you are trying to approach your opponent who is on one of the side platforms you are ALWAYS at a HUGE disadvantage, for the sole reason that you have to jump while the opponent can shield to beat any options you have in the air. (Unless you're one of the four, I believe, characters with an air-grab.)
Getting hit into the water, into the Klap-Trap is always fair too.

The bolded part is something people don't understand well when it comes to stages. When a stage forces this to happen for gameplay to proceed, it drastically limits reasonable gameplay and incredibly boosts the incentive for someone to get the lead and simply abuse the facet of a stage to win. That is the feature of a lot of questionable stages so far: Japes, Norfair, Brinstar, and RC to a lesser extend.


Stages with significant permanent "breaks" in flooring tend to have the problem of dumbing down gameplay into super turtle mode.

This thread should be used for the legalization of Jungle Japes when combined with Brinstar.

@NickRiddle,
1. He may be able to shark on Japes, but landing becomes a problem since he can't go through the main stage or the side platforms. He also risks getting dragged by the current or even spiked by the Klaptrap if he's not careful.
2. at least he can't go through the stage. Also, his ledge grabs will go up
3. Dair to gimp opponents in all the other stages is also silly
4. Not for characters with projectiles
5. One thing that benefits him on this stage
6. You have a problem with camping but not Sharking?
7. The same could be said about a strategy like Sharking(except the other way around).
8. Please don't get me started on what is "fair".

MK on Japes is completely ********. Even better than on Brinstar because the water allows him to shark and then fall to safety.

Jungle Japes is fine.

Like BPC said some characters can be gay as **** there.

But MK can be gay as **** on SV as well, lol.

But they're not broken there.

Fun fact, everyone, including solimar and popo, can recover from being hit into the water between the left and middle platforms (and everything to the right of that). So it's not like gimping is super easy or anything here compared to other stages.

Is there any legitimate reason why Japes is banned?

 

[DeLux]

What about G&W's Judgement or Peach pulling out a bomb?

I'll give you the TLDR so you don't have to read the entire thread. But this is the short version of the argument:

Tthose are instances of player initiated random elements. It's not man vs. computer because it's player initiated. It's man vs. man. Therefore it wouldn't be constituted as gambling because it falls under the scope of a man vs. man skilled game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@DMG, in Japes it is safe to jump on to a platform when MK is sharking because he has to go around the main platform if he wants to get a chance at hitting you. It's not like Brinstar where he can just go through the main stage and punish you for standing on the platform. Even if he does end up falling to safety, he will either end up taking a projectile to the face or wasting his ledge grabs.

 

[Judo777]

Most importantly DK is freaking amazing on Japes. i think he might be the best char on japes period. Lives to 200% every stock. Gets tons of up shenanigans and garbage. Cargo Dthrow > Klap trap. Also if you get grabbed ANYWHERE at about 70% you freaking die because DK has water traps with cargo throw to kill you off of every plat.

Also this isn't super relevant to the agruement, but neither is apes in general soooooooo.................

 

[Ripple]

DK is pretty OP on japes.

he can do extended SA up-b from the middle platform to the side platfroms.

extended SA up-b from one side to the entire other side.

up-b brake is utterly broken on this stage. likes way past 200% judo... like 300% at least.

if he grabs you, he has more than just throwing them into klap in case he isn't there, if DK grabs you and decides to jump into the water he auto KOs you like ike on pirate ship. he hits the water before you so he gets to jump and dair you to your death before they can even jump.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'll give you the TLDR so you don't have to read the entire thread. But this is the short version of the argument:

Tthose are instances of player initiated random elements. It's not man vs. computer because it's player initiated. It's man vs. man. Therefore it wouldn't be constituted as gambling because it falls under the scope of a man vs. man skilled game.

OK, let me give you an example:

A G&W breaks a Snake's shield. G&W is at 130% and Snake is at 30%. The only thing that could kill him in this situation is if he gets a nine. If the player goes for the judgement, that is considered gambling no matter how you look at it. There is a CHANCE that he might win the match and there is a CHANCE he may not.

@ Ripple, most of those grab tricks can be broken out of with proper struggling.

 

[Ghostbone]

A G&W breaks a Snake's shield. G&W is at 130% and Snake is at 30%. The only thing that could kill him in this situation is if he gets a nine. If the player goes for the judgement, that is considered gambling no matter how you look at it.

This.

Also the fact that banning stages like Brinstar and Japes isn't going to make a difference at all in terms of the legality of tournaments.

Japes isn't even random.

And if you're banning stages for having Man vs Machine elements that aren't random,

Well I guess you have to ban every stage.

 

[Ripple]

@ Ripple, most of those grab tricks can be broken out of with proper struggling.

not past 80%, there automatically in cargo for at least 1 second. and if they don't know to hold up its even longer

 

[SaveMeJebus]

not past 80%, there automatically in cargo for at least 1 second. and if they don't know to hold up its even longer

You may get more time depending on where you are grabbed. If you are grabbed on the right side of the stage, they still need to walk all the way to the left side of the stage if they want to get a guaranteed kill on most characters.

 

[Ripple]

You may get more time depending on where you are grabbed. If you are grabbed on the right side of the stage, they still need to walk all the way to the left side of the stage if they want to get a guaranteed kill on most characters.

or DK could just walk off into the water and spike them guaranteed... you don't need to walk across the stage

 

[SaveMeJebus]

or DK could just walk off into the water and spike them guaranteed... you don't need to walk across the stage

Any vids on this? I don't see how this is something that can only work on Japes or how the spike is even guaranteed.

 

[Ripple]

Any vids on this? I don't see how this is something that can only work on Japes or how the spike is even guaranteed.

if he grabs you, he has more than just throwing them into klap in case he isn't there, if DK grabs you and decides to jump into the water he auto KOs you like ike on pirate ship. he hits the water before you so he gets to jump and dair you to your death before they can even jump.

posted it earlier. water is usually broken