Bad argument is bad.
SHL laser and reflector far from stop MK from approaching.
You think it stops Marth from approaching DFalco? Hardly.
Big deal he is forced to approach, hwoever the number of options that MK has in approaching are safe and do not make it overly hard to approach Falco.
He also outdoes Falco close up and definitely dominates him aerially.
Falco is very easily edgeguarded as well.
The point that I was trying to make was that because Meta Knight is forced to approach, it puts Falco at the advantage. I wasn't necessarily arguing Meta Knight can't approach, or that he has a major problem doing so. Falco can also reset the spacing to force Meta Knight to approach again via short hop Phantasm. Also, due to the speed of Phantasm, Falco isn't easy to edgeguard. He is easier than some characters, but it isn't a simple task.
Fearing the CG? Space with your tilts and make use of your multijumps to remain in the air, thats what kirby does and it works quite well for him.
At best its a neutral matchup not a 6:4 matchup.
If Meta Knight trys to space with Tilts, he'll eat a Reflector to the face. If Meta Knight goes in the air, Falco will just drop back and SHDL or Nair, depending on his positioning.
Alot of mvoes go throught he glide attack, it has rather poor priority.
Considering that priority actually means Speed + Power + Hitbox Size, I'd say it's priority is pretty **** amazing. The only thing it is average on is Power, and that is what allows the first hit of the Falcos Nair or G&W's Bair to clank with it, and have the other hits pass through him. If they were not multihit attacks, it simply wouldn't work.
This is the only one I can really agree with but there are a few things.
G&W is much lighter than MK and so G&W's killing power is lessened.
While G&W cannot be gimped easily MK is capable of land camping him.
G&W's turtle is very good but he is committed to its usage when he pulls it out so if you are playing safely (as you should do anyway) the turtle is not as large a threat.
Uair is a good move for G&W but just because he can remove the decay on his moves with it doesn't mean he is guaranteed to kill you. Other than his grab to Dthrow he cannot link into his kill moves very easily and all of MK's kill moves outspeed those of G&W.
I don't understand how G&W being lighter "lessens" his killing power. It doesn't. It just means G&W will die early as well. But considering the power of his attacks, Meta Knight will die first most of the time.
The point of the Turtle is a powerful spacing tool. It doesn't need to be a threat. It keeps G&W safe, and overrides everything but the Tornado if Meta Knight decides to come in close.
I also never said relieving decay with Uair ensured a kill on Meta Knight. It's an advantage G&W has. I was listing it.
It doesn't matter if his kill moves can or can't link into one another. DThrow to DSmash is usually good enough, because if the kill doesn't go off, a tech chase is viable. Most characters don't even have that. Meta Knight has that with his DThrow, except it is much easier to avoid and doesn't require a tech. The only reason Meta Knight has an easier time with his kill moves is because they're faster, but that doesn't mean skilled G&W players won't be hitting you with Smashes, Fairs or Dairs. The fact is they will, and when G&W goes shot for shot vs Meta Knight, G&W wins.[/quote]
Teching the D throw isn't too difficult and I am quite sure you have enough time to shield any of his smashes afterwards.
MK has a easier time getting his KO'es and considering you should be using your tornado sparingly and not using it as the only means of approach (act like Marth for a bit) you aren't going to have a major issue either.
G&W can also tech chase and regrab Meta Knight, starting the whole process over again. Also, because of the range of the Turtle, Meta Knight is often forced to use the Tornado in order to approach. Using it sparingly works in a lot of cases, but it is more useful in this circumstance, thus will be used more.[/quote]
The range isn't a major issue because he also extends his hitbox at the same time.
Here is an idea DON'T DEPEND ON THE TORNADO.
Alot of arguments base themselves on what go through the tornado and what do not. Big deal he has moves that go through your tornado use other moves then.
MK has many other methods for approaching Dk and attacking other tah his tornado so such arguments are not major factors.
I
don't depend on the Tornado. The fact is, most people argue that Donkey Kong has a disadvantage in this match up partially due to the Mach Tornado. I am pointing out that this is false. I am not assuming the Tornado will be spammed, or that it should be.
Also, such arguments
are major factors. The Tornado goes through a lot of attacks, such as DK's Tilts, that Meta Knight normally cannot out range. Having attacks that pass through them is a valuable asset. I don't care if you agree or not, it's the truth. I'm not arguing that since he does have those moves, he wins the match up. I'm stating that they aid him a lot.
If Dk has his back to you then obviously he is going to bust out a Bair at which point you can react accordingly
You've never heard of RARing have you?
DK is heavy so comboing him is very easy.
Gimping him isn't too difficult either because his ^B is vulnerable from the top and bottom so a Dair can hit him out of it.
Whether or not a character is heavy is irrelevant. It's the rate at which they fall and they're size. In either case, Air Dodging eliminates combos in most scenarios along with proper DI, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.
Anyway, if DK is down low, he's in a lot of trouble. With proper DI though, most attacks in Brawl should send you upwards. In which case, DK will have an easier time recovering. Meta Knight definitely has an easier time gimping DK, but it isn't as prominent as you are claiming.[/quote]
Play like Marth, use your Fairs, tilts to poke at Dk and attack him safely and keep yourself in a position where you can avoid his attacks safely which is not very difficult.
Don't jump into the ****, play safely and you'll find that DK won't have large oppurtunities to land an early kill and will take more damage than he'll deliver to you. So it equalizes.
Do you even know how Marth beats a DK? He doesn't "play like Marth" and space himself from a distance. He'll get killed, and Marth has overall better range than Meta Knight. He gets inside DK's massive range with superior speed and goes from there. What gives you the idea that you can play safe from DK better than DK is beyond me, but suit yourself. You'll get outrange, and eventually smacked off screen.
"Don't jump into the ****" isn't a valuable asset in a match up discussion. It's advice that any player with any character can follow. You can't assume that if you don't get hit, you'll be fine. You
will get hit. The fact is DK has the advantage. Just because you don't jump into the **** doesn't change that fact.
To put it into better perspective for you, Marths worst match up is Meta Knight. Marth can win, and does much better, when he plays safe the way you described a Meta Knight should against a DK. "Play like Marth". That doesn't mean Marth has the advantage, which is what this topic is about. Marth still loses at 4:6.
Uair should not harass you at all. He's below you and goes for a Uair I believe you can Dair him out of it or you can just predict it (which won't be hard due to the lack of range) and avoid it.
The Uairs lack of range is offset by it's speed. Also, its hitbox is bigger than it appears, which other the other hand Meta Knights Dair is deceptively smaller in hitbox size than it actually is. And please don't say "you can just predict it". If you want to use that argument, I'll just start assuming the opponent in question is perfect and then Meta Knight always loses.
not really.
MK is not limited at all.
Usmash and Nikita don't do much if you are DIing properly and use your jumps properly along with air dodging.
MK and ROb and Sonic are one of those characters that Snake is better off not wasting hs time trying to edgeguard.
Um... What? You're kidding right?
Meta Knight either has to jump over the USmash or Air Dodge through it. And keep in mind Snake can keep multiple going at a time. If he jumps over it, Snake is waiting on the other side of the projectile. If he Air Dodges through, it's even worse. Snake can also use Grenades, C4 and Mines to help guard the edge for when he makes it through, and then guard even further back if he gets past all those hazards. Nikita is more so to use as an offstage tactic when Meta Knight is just recovering from the Blastzone area. It in most cases won't hit Meta Knight, but it forces him to react accordingly to what the player plans to do next. It's more of an aid and (dare I say it?) mind game.
Why oh why did you even bring this up?
Snake jumps you **** him.
If Snake uses any aerial he is committed to that aerial much like Fox is committed to his aerials.
If Snake tries to nair or Dair you dodge and **** him for being stupid. No Snake is going into the air because in such a position MK WILL **** him.
In fact its one of his weaknesses which is whyt hey stay onthe ground. There is a topic about it in the snake forums.
I wasn't implying Snake should go aerial consistently. He shouldn't. But as an edge guard or in certain circumstances, Nair is useful and kills very well. That is what I was trying to point out, and it is in fact true.
Dair on the other hand should be used from a short hop to punish shields or spot dodges when Meta Knight and Snake are in close quarters.
Any Snake planning to go aerial when the circumstance doesn't call for it is going to be slaughtered, which was not a point I was trying to make.
Do a Sonic, jump, jumps a few more times and atack.
Snake in the air is a snake that is dead.
No. Meta Knight is forced to use his multiple jumps which will not always reach Snake. If he tries this when Snake is coming down and attacks Snake, he's going to not only hit Snake, but the Grenade he's holding. That could kill Meta Knight at higher percents. Not to mention Snake can drop a C4 and blow it up before Meta Knight reaches him. He also has Air Dodges to throw into the mix.
Snake doesn't compete well in the air, but Meta Knight is by no means able to safely go after him from when he's high up. Snake doesn't like the situation, but Meta Knight will die or take more damage that Snake will if Meta Knight isn't very careful.
Snake does not have the time nor speed to drop 2 grenades then C4.
Let alone that in such a position dropping the grenades and C4 below him is really all he can do. In such a position MK can get at Snake.
Wait for him to fall a bit more then act accordingly.
Nair, Fair, Bair are quick enough that you can follow up with another after he airdodges and can capitalize.
I never once stated Snake can drop 2 Grenades and a C4. You're just exaggerating my statements. I pointed out Snakes options in the air when he is falling, because in order for Meta Knight to capitalize on Snake, he has to predict which options will be used otherwise he could potentially die from a Grenade or C4, or at the very least he won't punish Snake.
Snake is very very vulnerable in the air and in such a position MK should not ahve much difficulty getting to him even if he drops grenades and C4.
Simply because Mk can maneuver himself in the air into a position where he can capitalzie on Snake.
Snake doesn't have to blow up the C4 mind you. He can drop it and simply wait for the attack to come and Air Dodge through.
Again act like a Marth and play things very safely. yes Snake has very intimidating tilts but he has glaring weaknesses in that you can punish him after you shield his tilts (you should know the range) and his recovery is very vulnerable. It has slow acceleration going up so it should not be hard for MK to follow him.
Playing safe against Snake is much easier to do since his Tilts do not outrange yours by a large amount. You still need to remember that Snake still has mines and C4, and can use them with his positioning and tilts to control the match. That is half of what makes Snake so dangerous. If he lacked those assets, he'd be just another Ike. Those are weaknesses Snake has, but in the end they aren't large enough to warrant Meta Knight having the advantage overall.
Each of those character MK can get around by playing safely and not trying to jump in with an offensive game. He has to be passive aggressive similar to how a Marth would play. Take advantage of your range and priority and air maneuverability.
Big deal MK cannot use his tornado much against those characters, he has enough to him that he can attack them safely without placing himself in an overly compromising position.
Again, just because Meta Knight can get around those character by playing safe doesn't mean he has the advantage, which is the topic at hand. Look at Marth vs Meta Knight. It's the same **** thing.
And the points made on the Tornado, once again, were to emphasize how it isn't as big of an advantage as people claim. I wasn't implying that because it can be beaten, the character will win. It's just another advantage that was worth posting.
