Which tiers are viable in competitive play?

[Merkuri]

Don't forget Beast 1 and 2 where Hack got 5th with some Kirby (though I'm not sure if he used him at Beast 2). And counting other large tournaments, Zenith had Pikachu and Ganondorf both place at the top area.

I was only consiering NTSC tournaments since it's the more unbalanced version of the game. The European tournaments ruin everything anyways because no lower characters placed top at Beast2.

 

[Spyro]

The point in tier lists is to help you brag about beating someone with Kirby.

This is part of my new sig.

 

[Armada]

Fun fact: Every tourney with over 100 entrants in the past year has had at least 1(going by the current tier list) c or lower tier character in it's top 5. That is

Wintergames Fest 2011 (Samus)
Pound V (Pikachu)
SMYM12 (Zelda)
GENESIS2 (Dr Mario)
The Big House (Samus)
ROM4 (Ganondorf)

So I think this concept that only the top 8 are truly viable at top play needs to change. And I hope this trend carries on into 2012.

No love for my Y link?

 

[Divinokage]

You would have to play YL all the way, can you do that? Hm..

 

[Spyro]

You would have to play YL all the way, can you do that? Hm..

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Jeapie]

Hack played a lot of charackters in tourney matches at Beast naming

Kirby,Peach,Marth,Pikachu,Falco ( Others im not sure of )

Im kinda curious if there is going to be some1 else who will use kirby in tournament and swallow some matches from good players.

Hack is very good at picking a charackter to make the match up in his favor. The way Hack sees that mu that is.
Although he did made a badd charackter pick ones at beast..

 

[KirbyKaze]

Around where Link is, you start to get glaring flaws that are really difficult to cover up.

Zelda's game is linear as hell and she has no options against top tier dash dancing because she's horrible and has no range game except kicking wildly (which loses to dash dancing anyway). Also, Sheik.

Link can get circle camped to death and is generally too slow to get his **** together in time when people swing at him. Also, Sheik.

So forth and so on.

 

[Wake]

And also Sheik.

 

[Merkuri]

Around where Link is, you start to get glaring flaws that are really difficult to cover up.

Zelda's game is linear as hell and she has no options against top tier dash dancing because she's horrible and has no range game except kicking wildly (which loses to dash dancing anyway). Also, Sheik.

Link can get circle camped to death and is generally too slow to get his **** together in time when people swing at him. Also, Sheik.

So forth and so on.

Hmmm....maybe I have too much faith in Cosmo. But after watching the SMYM12 matches I have a hard time believing Zelda is such a bad character.

 

[Acryte]

Cosmo is amazing but look at the zelda fox matchup or zelda shiek matchup which exploit zelda's weaknesses and it becomes apparent how poor of a character zelda is. Mainly due to a lack of quality moves. If zelda's grab was faster, you couldn't smash DI out of her smash attacks, dair was a weak spike (though a spike nonetheless), and nair was a racking up damage type of move (read as "did a bit more damage") then she would at least have a few more options in the repetoire.

Also I was sad when I saw hack wasn't playing any kirby in BEAST2 (even if I like watching his marth/fox), at least he could have gone kirby in the falcon matchups

 

[KirbyKaze]

Zelda is horrible. She's like a ghetto Peach without the broken down smash or turnip zoning. So she's just defense. If you bother to play a baiting game against her or just inherently shut down her kicks by character design (what up Sheik crouch) then she's awful and she's totally helpless.

 

[MasterShake]

Her dair is a meteor, no? So it's awful and totally cancellable.

edit: read wrong, thought you were pointing out pros. Oops.

 

[Merkuri]

Zelda is horrible. She's like a ghetto Peach without the broken down smash or turnip zoning. So she's just defense. If you bother to play a baiting game against her or just inherently shut down her kicks by character design (what up Sheik crouch) then she's awful and she's totally helpless.

You keep mentioning Shiek as if low tiers are actually going to play there characters(Zelda) against her it's like pointing out that DK might actually beat Spacies on FD. It's pointless because it's not going to happen.

And you say top tier dash dancing leaves Zelda helpless but it just doesn't look that effective(at all). It's like you're describing a completely awful version of Zelda, who's moves have no range and awful lag. Yeah her game it linear, but if it's effective I don't see how any of that matters.

(I stopped watching after match 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1AE8Rbk7EQ&feature=related

 

[Levingy]

It would be interesting to play against Cosmo. I don't believe Zelda has any change, but Cosmo seems cool and I think only after playing against someone I could be sure of their(and their character) potential.

 

[Divinokage]

That's why there's only 1 Zelda doing really well, no one in the right mind will pick her to "CP" anyone. lol. You need to have the triforce of wisdom in you if you want to stand a chance.

 

[Dark Hart]

Cosmo has some interesting views on Zelda...

 

[Merkuri]

That's why there's only 1 Zelda doing really well, no one in the right mind will pick her to "CP" anyone. lol. You need to have the triforce of wisdom in you if you want to stand a chance.

And there is only 1 Doc doing really well even though he is the character people are most impressed with outside of the top 8. It doesn't mean much.

 

[Divinokage]

People, most impressed? How do you know that? Are you the people? lol.

And you are incorrect to say it doesn't mean much, it means everything!!

 

[Merkuri]

People, most impressed? How do you know that? Are you the people? lol.

And you are incorrect to say it doesn't mean much, it means everything!!

You're right, I'm just going by what I've seen on the boards. I think it's pretty obvious. Do you disagree that the general consensus is that Doc is the 9th best character in the game?(even the current tier list says it)

But it really doesn't reflect anything about Zelda at all. In the same vein there is only 1 Doc Mario and 1 Pikachu main doing really well either.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya probably around there, well at the very least, it says that the potential is there and that it's possible to do well with mostly any character.. but there's definitely lots of things to understand before doing that.

 

[Massive]

I should enter my next tournament as a Kirby main, just for ****s and giggles.

I'd probably do better than I do with puff, lol.

 

[t3h Icy]

Cosmo is the only great Zelda player, and I don't think he could make bracket at an international tournament (say Apex), unlike Axe, Shroomed, etc.

TheLake is pretty amazing too, but he's still not been able to make bracket either. He almost did at Apex 2010 though. =(

 

[Merkuri]

Cosmo is the only great Zelda player, and I don't think he could make bracket at an international tournament (say Apex), unlike Axe, Shroomed, etc.

TheLake is pretty amazing too, but he's still not been able to make bracket either. He almost did at Apex 2010 though. =(

Cosmo is significantly better than Thelake(no offense Lake), and if Thelake can make bracket at the Big House and ROM4, then I don't see why Cosmo can't make it to bracket at an international.

Both Darkatma and Dart made high bracket at Genesis2, and Cosmo has proven in the midwest that he's just as good if not better than those two(I don't think he's lost to Darkatma since maining Zelda)

 

[Blistering Speed]

yeah gais zelda is liek viable for srs. i saw cosmo beat kels once and her fair and bair have like mad kb shes like high tier you just have to play her right.

 

[Massive]

Cosmo was pretty good when I played him, but it felt like once the novelty of fighting a Zelda wore off, the fight got a lot easier.

See the Darkrain finals match at SMYM12 for reference. Darkrain didn't know how to react to the dthrow airdodge escape and OoS usmash the first match or so and almost lost.
After that he stopped trying to do throw combos and soundly 3-stocked Cosmo for the remaining matches.

My jiggs matches vs. him were very close (high % last stock on all 3 of them), I have a feeling if I had played him in pools (or been as good at resting things as Andale) as well I would've understood his style well enough to possibly knock him out of the bracket.

I have not played him lately though, so he could have gotten better for all I know.

 

[The Star King]

Maybe I'm weird but watching Cosmo makes me MORE convinced that Zelda is garbage.

Dat M2K set... I don't care how good you are, there's just nothing you can do against that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You keep mentioning Shiek as if low tiers are actually going to play there characters(Zelda) against her it's like pointing out that DK might actually beat Spacies on FD. It's pointless because it's not going to happen.

And you say top tier dash dancing leaves Zelda helpless but it just doesn't look that effective(at all). It's like you're describing a completely awful version of Zelda, who's moves have no range and awful lag. Yeah her game it linear, but if it's effective I don't see how any of that matters.

(I stopped watching after match 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1AE8Rbk7EQ&feature=related

Saying that you won't play your character against Sheik (or Fox, or whatever) because the matchup is beyond horrible is not a good argument for that character being tournament-playable.

Top tier dash dancing is crippling to Zelda because she has no good way of approaching because the space she controls is really small, and there's not a whole lot she can do to interact with that style of play. She can't projectile like Peach to cut off escape zones. She doesn't have a good move that hits above her like Ganon, so she sucks at punishing platform play (and resetting the neutral, provided they stay outside her effective range, which ain't hard). She's slow, so she can't chase people down in a conventional way, and her "approaches" are very punishable by dash dance.

She has to use a ton of prediction, forfeit stage, and gamble her own safety to counter very easy, low-risk strategies the top characters can employ against her because the zones she's good at protecting are in very narrow spots and if she pretends that they're not then she's already lost because she has maybe 4 relevant moves (and awful movement). She's also terrible out of shield, except kind of vs really stupid Falcos.

Oh, and Fox can shine combo her very, very hard because the waveshine chain is super duper easy on her. And leads to a lot of stuff. Provided you decide you want to hurt her and d-smash her (40%+), up smash her (80%+), or up tilt (low percents) it's very easy to get big damage on her from a running shine, drillshine, etc. People think they can up throw > up air and waste their shines a lot, but that's not Zelda being good so much as people treating her like she's another character.

I can understand how you wouldn't come to any of these conclusions by watching Cosmo's matches, but all of that is true.

 

[Merkuri]

Maybe I'm weird but watching Cosmo makes me MORE convinced that Zelda is garbage.

Dat M2K set... I don't care how good you are, there's just nothing you can do against that.

That set says more about the matchup than it does about Zelda as a character. Shiek vs Zelda is an unwinnable matchup, none of her other matches are that bad. Moreover the matchup being so bad is really more characteristic of Shiek than it is of Zelda(Shiek ***** half of the characters in the game)

Also you can find sets of M2k ******, Tink and Kels (and a whooooooooooole lot of other smashers) just as bad.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox Zelda is a horrific matchup and on par with Sheik's difficulty. Most Foxes are just incredibly bad at playing gay.

edit:

Many matchups with Fox on Youtube and in tournament are made possible by the Fox trying to have "fun". If they decide the win is all that matters, a whole ton of characters become completely helpless and unviable against him because Fox can decide to not let them have options and there's fuck all they can do to interact with it.

edit:

It's very frustrating that people in favour of Zelda's viability disregard the M2K vs. Cosmo set because of the skill disparity but we're not allowed to use "Midwest is ********" or "they clearly have no idea what they're doing" as an argument even when it's very clear that one of both of those statements are true.

 

[Kal]

People will always have confirmation bias. If you want to believe something, you will consider evidence for it and ignore or excuse evidence against it. This is why those who favor Zelda's viability disregard the M2K vs. Cosmo set.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why don't we all just agree to not use Youtube as a significant piece of evidence when we try to justify a MU ratio or argue a character's viability because an enormous amount of factors go into who wins and who loses and they aren't all communicated by the recorded footage?

It's also probable that you can find justification for virtually any MU ratio on Youtube.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Zelda's ****, this conversation is dumb.

 

[SamusPoop]

I think youtube is a respectable source in some areas, but its like any match, some rep what it really is like and others fail. Just don't use any matches with m2k or friendiles

 

[Wake]

I've seen a Kirby player beat a Fox.

 

[SamusPoop]

Empty statement as I beat this guy once.

 

[Archangel]

I've seen an elephant fly.

 

[Massive]

Just don't use any matches with m2k or friendiles

Why not?

Somebody soundly beating M2K with a low-tier would very easily lend credibility to that character. Everyone would be extolling their abilities if that happened, why should we disregard their losses if their victories are valid?

Additionally, some people (like myself, for example) play far better in friendlies than in tournaments. If there is no penalty for failure, I usually dissociate myself from winning or losing and can have fun/focus on the game. In a tournament, there's always that nagging feeling that losing a set can lead to a wasted 20 bucks and 9 hour drive.

 

[Divinokage]

Doesn't mean M2k is playing to win either.. he could be ****ing around with you. Eliminating someone in tournament means way more because there's a lot more things to handle in tournament play just like you said the pressure of winning or losing or whatever is going on in your head. It's a strength needed to do well and makes you a better player if you can handle it. Also some people play much better in tournament so ya..

 

[Leviathan741]

Ok... viable... would be ganon and up... but as far as winning A GRAND FINALS of a major tournament and being one of the best in the world and maining that character as well.... they are like 6. Peach, Falco, Fox, Jiggs (only if mango or hbox plays them), sheik and marth. Period.

 

[Merkuri]

Saying that you won't play your character against Sheik (or Fox, or whatever) because the matchup is beyond horrible is not a good argument for that character being tournament-playable.

Top tier dash dancing is crippling to Zelda because she has no good way of approaching because the space she controls is really small, and there's not a whole lot she can do to interact with that style of play. She can't projectile like Peach to cut off escape zones. She doesn't have a good move that hits above her like Ganon, so she sucks at punishing platform play (and resetting the neutral, provided they stay outside her effective range, which ain't hard). She's slow, so she can't chase people down in a conventional way, and her "approaches" are very punishable by dash dance.

She has to use a ton of prediction, forfeit stage, and gamble her own safety to counter very easy, low-risk strategies the top characters can employ against her because the zones she's good at protecting are in very narrow spots and if she pretends that they're not then she's already lost because she has maybe 4 relevant moves (and awful movement). She's also terrible out of shield, except kind of vs really stupid Falcos.

Oh, and Fox can shine combo her very, very hard because the waveshine chain is super duper easy on her. And leads to a lot of stuff. Provided you decide you want to hurt her and d-smash her (40%+), up smash her (80%+), or up tilt (low percents) it's very easy to get big damage on her from a running shine, drillshine, etc. People think they can up throw > up air and waste their shines a lot, but that's not Zelda being good so much as people treating her like she's another character.

I can understand how you wouldn't come to any of these conclusions by watching Cosmo's matches, but all of that is true.

I just posted a vid of a top tier dash dancing and Zelda beating it, so I don't see why you insist on harping on the point.

Dash dancing in a of itself does not harm Zelda that much. The disadvantages you state of her are true, but you forget to mention that she has an extremely powerful move that has little lag. If you watch Cosmo play, he is put in very little danger from whiffing a kick. In fact you'll often seem he short hop, whiff the kick, opponent tries to counter attack, and gets hit by the second kick of that same short hop. You're making a gross overexaggeration of Fox's abilities if you think that dash dancing is all he needs to do to win the match up.

I also feel to stress that part of the reason we still have this fallacious thinking that Fox is clearly number one is because people seem to think laser camping if done right is nearly invincible. You'd think after watching enough of Axe vs Jman, people would see the error in this thinking but I guess not. The problem with laser camping in this matchup(any match up really) is that it forces Fox to the EDGE. If Zelda kicks him at the edge he is as good as done for. Zelda's dsmash is great for edge guarding Fox because it will beat his up B everytime(Cosmo's words, not mine) so it just isn't that much of a problem. Laser camping isn't that effective which is why you don't see to many foxes commit to it(except vs Puff) you may notice the one player that pioneers that style is Jman who also happens to be the best Fox playe rin the country. The reason he is able to make it work(sometimes) is because he is the best fox main out there, it's an extremely risk strategy that needs to be done right to be effective.

Honestly KK it seems as if you just want to believe that Zelda is an awful character instead, of making a fair analysis.