Where would Ness and Lucas rank on Tier Lists if it wasn't for their infinites?

[Trip.]

Sshhh dont tell anyone!....( but Lucas IS high tier.)

 

[Miles.]

A good Lucas is a really big headache.

 

[Luigi player]

I'll reiterate once again:

PKT2 is an awful attack.

Why? It's telegraphed, too easily airdodged, too easily shielded, too easy to avoid, and too easily punished. Sure, you might be able to hit with it against people who are basically brain dead, but against any competent player, it's a god awful move. Why some Ness/Lucas mains try to implement it into competitive play, I'll never know.

Ness's Dair is also telegraphed. To make matters worse, its hitbox is small.

lol, just because you play against bad Ness'/Lucas' doesn't mean they all suck. Sometimes you can't evade it or just don't see it coming. Or maybe you just watch the videos and think "Wow, who doesn't see this coming?". Well, in an actual fight, things aren't the same as if you look how you played and see many things you could've done better.

 

[Nestec]

In Colin's video, there was virtually no way that Falco could've avoided that first PKT2, unless he knew it was coming. And he probably didn't. ;P

@ Cutter:
Yeah, you can airdodge PKT2 pretty easily. But you cannot airdodge the tail, and getting caught in the tail will get you PKT2'd, almost 100% of the time, regardless of how good you are at pressing R, or whatever input you have assigned to airdodging.

Oh yeah, and to whoever said Lucas' recovery is better, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with them there.


Btw, just an honest question, but how does one go about gimping Ness/Lucas recovery? I really don't know, since I've never played any really good players; the ones I play don't really know how to gimp, and call me a weirdo for coming to this forum. ^__^

 

[Megavitamins]

I've played a ness over wifi who could always get out of the grab release by jumping, i forgot how he did it though >_>.

 

[Levitas]

You mistimed it. It's unbreakable.

That said, I'm fairly certain that the grab-releases biggest effect was to give good players a reason to continue to avoid them. They're probably in about the same place in the character rankings that they would be without it, and they're not exactly stellar characters, even in the right hands. Lucas has like 2 killing combos (both situational: Dair > Dtilt lock > Fsmash, and PKT1 bolt hit > PKT2 ending sweetspot), can maybe pull a AA jab cancel PsiM, and Ness has some moves that lead to juggling and some moves to juggle with in addition to a good throw.

Edit: added two words to make this post make sense.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Btw, just an honest question, but how does one go about gimping Ness/Lucas recovery? I really don't know, since I've never played any really good players; the ones I play don't really know how to gimp, and call me a weirdo for coming to this forum. ^__^

For Ness you just run into it
Lucas is more character specific, though you can still hit the bulb to cancel that one as well.

G&W can bucket both, Uair it, and UpB it.
Olimar can gimp Ness with a yellow pikmin, but good luck with that one.
I think there are a few more but I don't recall them at this moment.

And Cutter suffers from not playing any good Ness', though Ness shouldn't bother him anyways because he uses G&W. If anyone links my matches with Colin I will murder them; Old matches and very unfamiliar with him.

Anyways, PKT2 is a very good move.
If you don't have a bucket.

 

[Yuna]

I see some reasonable people finally popped up while I was away.

Of course, some unreasonable people are still in this thread.

You obviously don't play Ness well if you think that Ness "has a bad pk thunder". Pk thunder is Ness's best move, and it's a hell of a lot better than Lucas's sorry excuse for pk thunder.

...
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Anyway, I believe you said "PKT2 is a reliable KO move. You'll usually hit with it at least once a match." earlier. Hitting with something once a match =/= It being reliable.

I don't know much about Lucas' PKT mindgames (I believe they're the same as Ness'?), but Ness PK thunder is not bad. On ground, it is not so easily dodged. Roll forward, you are hit by the tail, and stunned. Therefore, Ness can then bring the head back and hit you with it. Roll backwards, you are hit anyway. Spotdodge? See "roll forward". Jumping is not a good escape either, Ness will chase you. Shielding is all that's left, and IIRC, PKT can sheild-poke through the top or something.

How about I friggin' hit it and make it dissipate? It's not like it travels at lightning speed.

Lol, PKT2 is being very underestimated. The tail is long; if you are caught in it while both chars are midair, you will almost always be hit by PKT2, depending on the positioning. You can rarely airdodge a good Ness' PKT also.

PKT2 has a tail? Since when? Are you talking about Praying where you hit someone with the tail of PKT1 and then PKT2 them in the face?

And why wouldn't I be able to airdodge it? It's not like they can use magic to randomly make it impossible to airdodge. I see it coming, I try to airdodge it or just hit it.

Seeing as it's 2nd most powerful spike in the game after Ganondorf, has the longest after-spike-hitstun (7 stage builder squares before it wears off) and a huge disjointed hitbox, I fail to see how it "pales in comparison" to other spikes. "Slow" and "not much range"? You must be thinking of Melee Ness or something, because you're not even close.

How much after-spike hitstun you suffer depends on what percentage you are at when you get hit. At 0%, it's very negligible and easily Meteor canceled.

Also, do not post videos of obviously sucky players in discussions of character potential.

It may be easy to see coming, but it most situations in which it kills, there is practically nothing to be done about it. Catching/Stunning opponent in PKT tail -> PKT2 is quite a sight, and can happen easily.

How about I not get Prayed? How about not getting Tailwhipped into PKT2? How about people friggin' learning to not randomly get Tailwhipped by PKT1 in range of PKT2?

PKT2 is very situational. You have to stun them with PKT1 while they're in such close proximity they do not have the time to DI away, wiggle out of stun and airdodge PKT2. It's situational. It's not reliable.

I agree it can be easily punished if it misses. But isn't that the same with most good KO moves? Miss it and you'll be punished?

Half of Brawl's roster disagrees. You'd have to be an idiot to not be able to punish PKT2 on whiff. With many characters, there are many KO moves which can be hard or even impossible to punish on whiff since some of them have so little lag you have to be at almost point-blank range to punish them.

PKT2, not so much.

It's against a terrible Falco, but here's a video of Colin (The very same Colin from this topic) managing the PKT2 tail combo (And hitting with PKT2 even without the tail):

This proved what? That it's situational? Funny, I seem to remember me saying that several pages ago.

Also, read what I told Zaim.

Light shouldn't have posted that. It's fairly entertaining, but it isn't really relevant to this topic... Just read my posts, you don't need a video.

<snip>

When someone mentioned a recent argument about Ness' potential where one side (apparently the one saying Ness isn't as good as some people think he is) was Melee's very best Ness and also a mod, I assumed it was Simna.

It would be quite amusing because the very person whose skills you're touting as proof of Ness' prowess disagrees with your claims.

And I don't care if Hostility might be a capable player. Sometimes, good players play really badly either due to unfamiliarity with matchups (which would make them less good players since they'd have limited knowledge and expereince) or temporary stupidity.

One thing, Hostility didn't even Snakedash from what I saw of that video.

I believe that Ness and Lucas would become more popular, thus moving up on the Tier List to about Mid-Mid Tier.

Character popularity is inconsequential.

lol, just because you play against bad Ness'/Lucas' doesn't mean they all suck. Sometimes you can't evade it or just don't see it coming. Or maybe you just watch the videos and think "Wow, who doesn't see this coming?". Well, in an actual fight, things aren't the same as if you look how you played and see many things you could've done better.

Sometimes you cannot evade of see DeDeDe's Fsmash coming either. I guess that makes it a great attack.

Yeah, you can airdodge PKT2 pretty easily. But you cannot airdodge the tail, and getting caught in the tail will get you PKT2'd, almost 100% of the time, regardless of how good you are at pressing R, or whatever input you have assigned to airdodging.

How about I'm way too far from Ness for him to PKT2 me or reach me in time before I can airdodge out of the stun?

Btw, just an honest question, but how does one go about gimping Ness/Lucas recovery? I really don't know, since I've never played any really good players; the ones I play don't really know how to gimp, and call me a weirdo for coming to this forum. ^__^

Wait, what? You have no knowledge of something this basic, yet you know enough to tout PKT2's potential?

How does one not gimp Ness' recovery? Jump out and and whack him in the face while he's directing PKT1 into his body (if his 2nd jump is gone, he'll probably die from it, if he doesn't, rinse and repeat). Or hit the PKT1 to make it dissipate. Or simply jump out and eat PKT1 like a man.

I can't count how many times I've gimped PKT1. Just today, I had Din's Fire explode PKT1 out of existence (strategically spaced so that Ness wouldn't get hit by Din's Fire), thus killing Ness.

 

[ColinJF]

When someone mentioned a recent argument about Ness' potential where one side (apparently the one saying Ness isn't as good as some people think he is) was Melee's very best Ness and also a mod, I assumed it was Simna.

It would be quite amusing because the very person whose skills you're touting as proof of Ness' prowess disagrees with your claims.

What claims would that be? Simna was the one arguing that pk thunder 2 is a reliable kill move in the topic they were referring to. Also, as I said in the part you quoted, that video isn't particularly special... Simna is an excellent player but he isn't the only one who can use pk thunder (though he is certainly the inspiration). Every Ness player should be able to use it proficiently.


You seem to be sceptical that pk thunder is Ness's best move. Let's take a look at some of its uses:

On the ground, it can be used at all ranges. At long range, it can be used to force the opponent to approach. It is not easy to powershield because it can go through the top of shields (and then when you release, it hits you), it can go through the centre of shields after having gone through the top, and you can draw circles in front of shields among other things. It also isn't easy to roll dodge or spot dodge because you'll just be in the tail when it ends and then Ness can loop back around the head to hit you. At mid range, it can be thrown out as an attack with better range than most of Ness's moves that moves very quickly. At short range, it can be used to quickly get the opponent off of you, since it activates quickly.

Against opponents in the air it is even more dangerous because it is nearly impossible to air dodge... ideally you want to be using pk thunder so that if they air dodge the head, they end up in the tail, and then you loop back around the head and hit them. And since the tail can't be attacked, it can also be difficult to fend off pk thunder with aerials. What's more, in this game, you always have two frames of landing lag at least (unless you land with something with IASA frames) so you can even hit with pk thunder's tail as they land (it is pretty big so this isn't hard) and then loop back around the head and get them back into the air. It's also free damage against characters with glide attacks.

Speaking of free damage, the damage of this move is pretty good... it's 8% for the head plus 1% for each hit of the tail (and it usually hits numerous times). It builds damage quite well.

And then there's pk thunder 2. This is a good attack, but that isn't even its only use. It can also be used to send Ness straight down, allowing him to use a get up attack at will, which is a good mix up. It can also be used for transportation since the landing lag is negligible and if done from the proper height there is actually no landing lag at all.

Pk thunder is part of what makes Ness an excellent character (though I am sure you disagree with this anyway).

 

[Yuna]

What claims would that be? Simna was the one arguing that pk thunder 2 is a reliable kill move in the topic they were referring to. Also, as I said in the part you quoted, that video isn't particularly special... Simna is an excellent player but he isn't the only one who can use pk thunder (though he is certainly the inspiration). Every Ness player should be able to use it proficiently.

I must've misread the previous post (or he was lying). I apologize.

You seem to be sceptical that pk thunder is Ness's best move. Let's take a look at some of its uses:

On the ground, it can be used at all ranges.

And? So can Din's Fire, pretty much. And Falco's lasers. Aura Spheres too.

At long range, it can be used to force the opponent to approach.

And, so can Din's Fire, pretty much. And Falco's lasers. Aura Spheres too.

It is not easy to powershield because it can go through the top of shields (and then when you release, it hits you), it can go through the centre of shields after having gone through the top

Why would I try to PS it and then randomly release my shield for my reason, just asking to be hit by it? Also, it's his best move if it can sometimes hit people for a little bit of damage?

and you can draw circles in front of shields among other things.

How about I friggin roll past it and dash at you? Or I just whack your stupid PKT out of existence.

It also isn't easy to roll dodge or spot dodge because you'll just be in the tail when it ends and then Ness can loop back around the head to hit you.

How about I don't roll so I get hit by the tail? It's not that hard. How about I don't randomly get hit by the tail while in range for PKT2 all the time?

At mid range, it can be thrown out as an attack with better range than most of Ness's moves that moves very quickly.

... Hit it. PS it. It's pretty slow.

At short range, it can be used to quickly get the opponent off of you, since it activates quickly.

It comes out pretty fast, yah, but you still have to direct it. There are plenty of attacks which are tons faster than PKT1.

Against opponents in the air it is even more dangerous because it is nearly impossible to air dodge...

If you're an idiot. Also, getting hit a few times by PKT1, wow.

ideally you want to be using pk thunder so that if they air dodge the head, they end up in the tail, and then you loop back around the head and hit them. And since the tail can't be attacked, it can also be difficult to fend off pk thunder with aerials.

How the hell do you both loop it so they get hit by the tail if they airdodge the head and so that it's only the tail which is presented to them so they can't hit it?

What's more, in this game, you always have two frames of landing lag at least (unless you land with something with IASA frames) so you can even hit with pk thunder's tail as they land (it is pretty big so this isn't hard) and then loop back around the head and get them back into the air. It's also free damage against characters with glide attacks.

... ... ...

Every friggin' attack in the game is godly then I guess.

Speaking of free damage, the damage of this move is pretty good... it's 8% for the head plus 1% for each hit of the tail (and it usually hits numerous times). It builds damage quite well.

And when you whiff, I'll gladly be there to sweetspot Lightning Kick you.

And then there's pk thunder 2. This is a good attack, but that isn't even its only use.

So is Ike's Fsmash.

It can also be used to send Ness straight down, allowing him to use a get up attack at will, which is a good mix up.

Why in the world would one purposely put oneself on the ground to be forced to play Oki-zeme? Especially when his Get-up attack isn't even that good.

It can also be used for transportation since the landing lag is negligible and if done from the proper height there is actually no landing lag at all.

In what alternate universe? Vids of it didn't happen.

Pk thunder is part of what makes Ness an excellent character (though I am sure you disagree with this anyway).

You specifically said it's his best attack. I'm sure Simna disagrees... vehemently.

 

[ColinJF]

How the hell do you both loop it so they get hit by the tail if they airdodge the head and so that it's only the tail which is presented to them so they can't hit it?

You can't do both, but you can mix it up, making it difficult to avoid.

So is Ike's Fsmash.

Pk thunder 2 is much easier to land than Ike's forward smash and it kills earlier (unless Ike has charged his smash).

Why in the world would one purposely put oneself on the ground to be forced to play Oki-zeme? Especially when his Get-up attack isn't even that good.

There are invincibility frames for get up attacks so there are a few main uses of this technique. You can use it to avoid some attack on the ground sometimes. Another use is that if you miss a target in the air with pk thunder you can aim for your own head (on the ground) so that you don't have to suffer the ending lag of the move.

In what alternate universe? Vids of it didn't happen.

I don't have videos but this is well known... it's even in a sticky on the Ness boards.

I'm sure Simna disagrees... vehemently.

Well you'd be wrong. In fact Simna is known for saying pk thunder is Ness's best move. Not that what Simna says is particularly relevant to this topic, since I am not arguing from authority.

 

[cutter]

@ Cutter:
Yeah, you can airdodge PKT2 pretty easily. But you cannot airdodge the tail, and getting caught in the tail will get you PKT2'd, almost 100% of the time, regardless of how good you are at pressing R, or whatever input you have assigned to airdodging.

Oh yeah, and to whoever said Lucas' recovery is better, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with them there.

Uh... Oil Panic? Bucketing the tail maxes it out in one sitting, you get invincibility frames, AND the attack cancels quicker than usual when you get the third shot absorbed. Bucket the head, and PKT is gone completely. If you absorb the head of PKT, Oil Panic will 0-death.

Btw, just an honest question, but how does one go about gimping Ness/Lucas recovery? I really don't know, since I've never played any really good players; the ones I play don't really know how to gimp, and call me a weirdo for coming to this forum. ^__^

Oil Panic... Jump off the stage, absorb the head, and Ness/Lucas fall to their death.

And yes Esc; Ness/Lucas have never bothered me. They get wrecked by G&W.

 

[ColinJF]

If Game & Watch absorbs the tail he actually usually ends up dead because the lag before he can act again is longer than his invincibility and the hitbox of pk thunder 2 extends behind Ness so after he passes through temporarily invincible Game & Watch, he is still hit. Also, absorbing the tail helps Ness since it makes an Oil Panic so weak that it's not even worth avoiding, which means there is no fear of spamming pk thunder, or going for another pk thunder 2 combo. Also, one head is not enough for an instant death Oil Panic. I don't think even two heads is enough, but I'm not sure about that. You can't absorb just a single tail hitbox anyway.

And I can't speak for Lucas (though I think he is a poor character), but Ness v. Mr. Game & Watch isn't that bad... maybe 55-45 in Mr. Game & Watch's favour or even. Ness's forward air seems to beat out the turtle if spaced properly (though the turtle might come out faster... I don't know the specifics on this). Ness's forward smash outranges all of Mr. Game & Watch's smashes. Ness's up aerial beats the start of Mr. Game & Watch's down aerial. Mr. Game & Watch's down aerial is actually a pretty good way to be caught in tail of pk thunder -> pk thunder 2 if you aren't careful, so use of this move has to be restricted more than usual.

Bucketing pk thunder over the edge only happens every few games, and sometimes it even ends badly for Mr. Game & Watch... Ness can throw out aerials before you can put away the bucket if you use it too early, or he can not use pk thunder at all until he's fallen enough low that when you absorb, you won't be able to make it back after the absorption lag (you have to get him used to absorbing it before you can do this though).

 

[cutter]

If Game & Watch absorbs the tail he actually usually ends up dead because the lag before he can act again is longer than his invincibility and the hitbox of pk thunder 2 extends behind Ness so after he passes through temporarily invincible Game & Watch, he is still hit. Also, absorbing the tail helps Ness since it makes an Oil Panic so weak that it's not even worth avoiding, which means there is no fear of spamming pk thunder, or going for another pk thunder 2 combo. Also, one head is not enough for an instant death Oil Panic. I don't think even two heads is enough, but I'm not sure about that. You can't absorb just a single tail hitbox anyway.

And I can't speak for Lucas (though I think he is a poor character), but Ness v. Mr. Game & Watch isn't that bad... maybe 55-45 in Mr. Game & Watch's favour or even. Ness's forward air seems to beat out the turtle if spaced properly (though the turtle might come out faster... I don't know the specifics on this). Ness's forward smash outranges all of Mr. Game & Watch's smashes. Ness's up aerial beats the start of Mr. Game & Watch's down aerial. Mr. Game & Watch's down aerial is actually a pretty good way to be caught in tail of pk thunder -> pk thunder 2 if you aren't careful, so use of this move has to be restricted more than usual.

Bucketing pk thunder over the edge only happens every few games, and sometimes it even ends badly for Mr. Game & Watch... Ness can throw out aerials before you can put away the bucket if you use it too early, or he can not use pk thunder at all until he's fallen enough low that when you absorb, you won't be able to make it back after the absorption lag (you have to get him used to absorbing it before you can do this though).

...


I'm sorry, I don't even feel like responding to that.

 

[Brinzy]

Hot damn, I love Yuna.

 

[∫unk]

Ness's back throw is dirty.

Don't get grabbed.

 

[Mmac]

Colin, you are arguing with Yuna! You know how insane that is?

Nobody can beat Yuma!

 

[Brinzy]

And I can't speak for Lucas (though I think he is a poor character), but Ness v. Mr. Game & Watch isn't that bad... maybe 55-45 in Mr. Game & Watch's favour or even.

Please stop talking. Now.

 

[Levitas]

Considering that a good portion of this thread doesn't actually address the topic, I'm wondering where Yuna and Successor believe the kids belong.

 

[rathy Aro]

Yuna's arguments don't seem reasonable. They essentially sound like, I'm right because I think I'm right and I'm smarter than you. experience>speculation. I'm not going to back up that claim seeing as thats how its seems to me, but not necesarily how it is. =/

Colin, you do make ness seem sort of godly when he clearly isn't. Acknowledge he has weaknesses too; it makes you more believable. (someone else in this thread should also take that advice..... hint: yoshi)

 

[Yuna]

Considering that a good portion of this thread doesn't actually address the topic, I'm wondering where Yuna and Successor believe the kids belong.

Fun fact: English is my third language, yet I'm able to understand plain English.

They'd be Mid Mid at most. They'er still easy targets for a lot of characters since the grab release can many times lead to a smash.

 

[Blackbelt]

Yeah, Yuna is right. Middle of the Mid tier sounds right.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Sshhh dont tell anyone!....( but Lucas IS high tier.)

No. Lucas really isn't very good at all.

 

[cutter]

Please stop talking. Now.

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

 

[Brinzy]

Yuna's not exercising that he's "smarter than everyone else and therefore is right", it's just that a lot of what he's saying is true. The Earthbounders can mindgame, but really, if they have to rely on mindgames to land PK Thunder 2 hits and other skills (moreso than other characters have to mindgame for their own abilities), then it becomes a situational and psychological thing, and perhaps a skillful thing... but not a definite and solid strategy. You can't become predictable with moves like those, or otherwise they become nigh useless. Most anything that becomes predictable loses use, but really, PKT2 gets hurt more if people can see it coming than... say, Falco's lasers.

Considering that a good portion of this thread doesn't actually address the topic, I'm wondering where Yuna and Successor believe the kids belong.

Middle of mid for now, perhaps lower mid, but I think they could get out of low universally. They're not totally unused, but they could use more players. I think the main thing that hurts them is that their more troublesome match-ups tend to appear more often (Marth, G&W), but they do pretty fine overall against other solid characters like Pit and ZSS, in my opinion.

 

[Megavitamins]

You mistimed it. It's unbreakable.

That said, I'm fairly certain that the grab-releases biggest effect was to give good players a reason to continue to avoid them. They're probably in about the same place in the character rankings that they would be without it, and they're not exactly stellar characters, even in the right hands. Lucas has like 2 killing combos (both situational: Dair > Dtilt lock > Fsmash, and PKT1 bolt hit > PKT2 ending sweetspot), can maybe pull a AA jab cancel PsiM, and Ness has some moves that lead to juggling and some moves to juggle with in addition to a good throw.

Edit: added two words to make this post make sense.

How can you mistime it, other than jabbing?

 

[Levitas]

You could fail to input the grab attacks perfectly (for the jump break), or if he's jumping out before the regrab, you're just not grabbing fast enough.

 

[JacobWins]

I use Ness as a secondary, hes absolutely great.

His PK fire can lock you in itself long enough to get Fsmashed. All of his aerials are useful(he has a spike :D). My only complaint is that its too easy to mess up the recovery.

 

[Gindler]

I use Ness as a secondary, hes absolutely great.

His PK fire can lock you in itself long enough to get Fsmashed. All of his aerials are useful(he has a spike :D). My only complaint is that its too easy to mess up the recovery.

Some characters stay in long enough for that (usually heavies...minus yoshi ). True one of the few characters who doesn't have a bad aerial. Recover high and you won't get gimped too much.

But yeah, without the infinites Ness would move up maybe 2-3 spots? I mean it Marth. Thank goodness MK or Snake don't have this infinite on Ness.

 

[clowsui]

Hey Colin, please show Yuna some videos of you or some results of you to show that you're a person he should actually take time to consider seriously.

There is a degree to which knowing the game can exceed your playing of the game, but you've FAR surpassed that degree by making all these claims.

So again: where are those results or those videos?

By the way, I play a good Ness player (SmasH64) regularly and he even admits that Ness isn't the "hot ****" you're making him out to be.

 

[mitchlol7]

to all the people that say "TieRs doN exItS" they do, so just deal with it

Oh yeah the pk tail isnt that good air dodge and fast fall is all you need

 

[ColinJF]

Hey Colin, please show Yuna some videos of you or some results of you to show that you're a person he should actually take time to consider seriously.

There is a degree to which knowing the game can exceed your playing of the game, but you've FAR surpassed that degree by making all these claims.

So again: where are those results or those videos?

By the way, I play a good Ness player (SmasH64) regularly and he even admits that Ness isn't the "hot ****" you're making him out to be.

You must be joking... whether I am a good player is completely irrelevant to whether you should "consider [me] seriously". The only thing that actually matters is the substance of my posts. If you look back, you'll notice I've only made exactly one claim about my playing ability: that I regularly land pk thunder 2 against opponents who aren't idiots. I got seventh at the last tournament I attended (which was also the most recent Brawl tournament in the province) but there aren't many Brawl tournaments around here anyway so it's not like I can present you a huge list of results (and I think I've improved since that tournament but there hasn't been another one in the area for over a month)... and it doesn't matter anyway, because nothing I've said is predicated on me being a good player.

Your last sentence is an example of the sort of thing I am not saying... I am not saying "Ness is good because I say so and I am a good player". If I were saying that then you would be right to demand evidence that I am a good player, but I'm not saying that.

Also, this post is not to be read as conceding that I suck... because I don't think I am bad. I'm just tired of the way some people on these forums seem to interpret everything as an argument from authority. Who you are doesn't matter -- it's what you write. I shouldn't even have to point this out since it is pretty obvious.

(This is actually a bit off topic, but so was your post, and it kind of demanded a response.)

 

[Nestec]

Wait, what? You have no knowledge of something this basic, yet you know enough to tout PKT2's potential?

How does one not gimp Ness' recovery? Jump out and and whack him in the face while he's directing PKT1 into his body (if his 2nd jump is gone, he'll probably die from it, if he doesn't, rinse and repeat). Or hit the PKT1 to make it dissipate. Or simply jump out and eat PKT1 like a man.

I can't count how many times I've gimped PKT1. Just today, I had Din's Fire explode PKT1 out of existence (strategically spaced so that Ness wouldn't get hit by Din's Fire), thus killing Ness.

Eh? Ok, please elaborate on this. Jump out and whack him? If he's that close to the stage, using PKT for recovery is not even necessary.

Now I can understand the Din's Fire strategy. But I do not see how one can nail Ness' PKT with any other projectile, especially considering its speed. And G&W cannot chase Ness, and absorb the PKT from behind Ness faster than Ness can merely hit himself with it. "Idiots" normally attempt this kind of thing, and are often killed by a PKT2 because of it. Non-idiots don't risk it, and thus, they don't gimp the recovery. (Hey, don't get me wrong Cutter, I'm not calling you an idiot)

And I will say that I don't think PKT is Ness' best move.

What I'm arguing is that PKT is not an awful move. Incredible? Maybe not. But it is useful.

Considering that Ness is very under-represented in tournaments, it's pretty safe to assume that many of the best players do not have any experience against a top Ness user. And even more of them do not read about Ness PKT techniques. They won't be able to sit at a computer screen and think of ways around the attack when it comes time to evade it.

Now, I know you're probably gonna say that it's something you don't need to think about. But the average person will attempt to airdodge. The tail is much too long to be airdodged, you will be stunned by it if it comes near you. And we all know what comes next. ;P

I know the PKT2 kill will not always connect. Thus, why it's not an incredible KO move. But it is a good KO move, because it KOs at low percentages, has near unbeatable priority, and has a setup that is often difficult to escape. However, it is difficult to land, which is why it can be called situational, I suppose. But this one flaw does not make it a bad KO move.

Btw, it's not necessary to even mention other character's kill moves. This isn't about them. >_<

 

[MarKO X]

A few things...

Sonic gimps Ness's recovery lovely with the spring. I'm not saying that gives Sonic an advantage against Ness, cause it's a hard matchup for Sonic (as is nearly everyone else). But yeah, if I'm Sonic, you're Ness, and you lack a 2nd jump, I'm going for that all day.

Ness was in his best form in Smash64... arguably so was half that cast. That game was just... different. To compare Ness in SSB64 to Ness in Brawl isn't fair at all.

In that whole thing to counter Yuna, I'm guessing that the only time anyone uses an upB recovery move is because their 2nd jump is gone. So if you see Ness using PKT to recover, chances are his 2nd jump has been used. Thus, you can jump out there and hit him no matter where Ness is. Of course, you gotta be fast enough to do it as well, but you can definitely hit Ness prior to him getting that PKT2 going, and from there, it's a 50-50 chance of death, because PKT2's distance isn't half bad.

And you can totally airdodge the PKT1 and its tail... depending on how the PKT1 is being directed compared to your angle of landing. You can also roll past it too, both from Ness and Lucas. If its headed straight at you, Ness's can be shielded, while Lucas's has to shielded for a while longer, then you roll out. If Ness is bringing it up, the tail is gone by the time you roll towards Ness for the punish, and the PKT1 isn't there for the PKT2 yet. However, I just play standard Nesses and Lucases. I'm pretty sure the attack is properly spaced to prevent getting punished, but it seems like 4 times out of 5, PKT shouldn't hit you at all.

 

[Brinzy]

That's why you don't flail out PKT straight to your opponent unless it's absolutely necessary. You circle it between your opponent and you (if you're Ness) and that prevents a punishment while looking for a shield stab or any other opening.

 

[Nestec]

Eh, pardon my ignorance, lol, but a character's 2nd jump only gets used up if they are knocked off the stage after using it, right?

Sorry if that didn't make sense. >___<

 

[Brinzy]

If you use your 2nd jump in the air at any point (whether it finishes or not), you need to land first to use your 2nd jump again. If you're hit away from the stage before you land AND after you've used your 2nd jump, you can only recover with your Up B.

Uh... I was just speaking in terms of Ness here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness and Lucas are low tier. It's mainly because they are pretty easily gimped, from what I understand.

 

[thesage]

The infinite doesn't affect Ness that much because:

1. Nobody plays pokemon trainer (even if they did, it's already a pretty good match for Ness anyways)
2. The matchup is already so in favor of Marth that it doesn't really matter.
3. Marth has better and faster options out of a grab.
4. People don't really do it cuz they think it's dumb.

On Ness' tier placement, probably middle of middle to upper low. MAYBE upper middle or lower upper if we get an Azen for Ness (not happening).

A lot of people in this thread do not know what they are talking about. I'm not naming anybody.

Ness' big problems are that he has bad matchups with ROB, Snake, and Marth. Marth may hold less importance as he seems to become less and less popular (in my area at least).

Some notable advantageous matchups he has are Zelda, Olimar, and Yoshi.

 

[Darkwashu]

Lucas' PK thunder,you cant screw up his recovery nearly as easy as Ness',since Lucas' just passes through them.
With Ness,just jump off the ledge,get hit then Ness falls to his death.

Lucas probably will be higher than Ness,Lucas is just the better character.(inb4 someone gives me a wall-o-text on why im wrong)

I can Picture Ness on the middle of mid tier,and Lucas high mid tier.


Considering.PT isnt mained much and,Charizard is only 1 of 3 pokemon,Ness shouldnt worry about infinities THAT much from him.

PKT is NOT Ness' best move,PKT2 is VERY predictable,and is hard to setup.