Where would Ness and Lucas rank on Tier Lists if it wasn't for their infinites?

[cutter]

AFAIK, it doesn't matter if you're completely right or completely wrong on something; if you flame/troll someone, it's still flaming/trolling.

 

[Nurotasama]

AFAIK, it doesn't matter if you're completely right or completely wrong on something; if you flame/troll someone, it's still flaming/trolling.

How is it trolling if you are completely correct on an issue in a relevant topic?

 

[Yuna]

Have you seen the posts Yuna makes? They're worse than that. Plus he doesn't just flat out insult him, he adressed everything he said.

Quotes of it didn't happed.

Neither did dguy. Yuna has gone through posts, quoted people and replaced everything they said with "bunch of BS" and other things worse than what dguy did.

Claiming that something people said is BS =/= Insulting them

Everyone with a spine would have done that. I would never let someone cheat their way out of a discussion through threat of a ban. Also, sounds like Simna likes to insult people too, just like so many other people on Smash Boards. Especially Yuna.

Simna abusing his mod powers =/= Everyone should be banned like that

Yuna's posts are flooded with unneeded insults, he doesn't know how to discuss anything normally. Exactly, having dguy banned before Yuna was an obvious flaw. Something's wrong.

Quotes of it didn't happen. Just because Simna did something obviously unnecessary doesn't mean every mod has to start banning like he did.

Filling in quote boxes with "bunch of BS" sounds like an insult to me, telling people their ideas are trash. Insulting someone's arguing ability is better than insulting someone's playing ability?

Or not. Seeing as how I've never received an infraction from it. I'm calling what they said BS, I'm not calling them idiots.

The only time I've ever seen that happen was when it would get him out of a situation where people would make fun of what he said. Which the one I remember went something around the line of Yuna telling someone that he meant to type "I hate it when people color their posts" rather than "I hate people who color their posts."

Or the few other times where I said something inappropriate and then apologized for it. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's happened. Also kinda indicates it doesn't happen very often.

I don't remember having a requirement of adressing people by an insulting name. Although for me to assume you havn't would be a pretty big gamble.

It's kinda important. If I say "Only idiots would fall for...", whom am I insulting, really? Unnamed people?

Random Ness Person: "PKT2 is really really good! It's a reliable KO move that I can hit with all the time!"
Me: "Only idiots would constantly get hit by PKT2"/"It would require a player of very poor skills and mindgames (or quite possibly intelligence) to constantly get hit by PKT2".

If you call that insulting people, then I suggest you start living in a sound-proof box on a deserted island with only stuffed animals as friends because then everyone can just love each other and never ever say stuff like "I hate pink" because that would obviously be an insult to anyone who likes pink.

It's because it shouldn't have been made in the first place, none of the mods even said one of the other ones were out of line, because they only feel comfortable with members of low post counts.

I hear Simna said "Stop discussing this discussion point" and the guy persisted. That goes against a direct order from a mod and can result in bans (temporary) or infractions too. I've actually had that happen to me on KGS and Gateworld.

That said, maybe Simna overracted. And has someone actually asked the collective Mods of SWF? Have they said "Simna did nothing wrong. It's 100% right to ban dguy!"? How do you know none of them has any problems with what happened?

If someone doesn't get banned for being an ***, what do they get banned for?

Breaking rules.

Honestly, I rarely if ever see Yuna as right.

That might be because you're often wrong? It's quite funny how I was arguing many things for months and then the SBR comes out with a rulelist that agrees with me 100%!

So does that mean the SBR's rulelist is totally way off base, too? After all, it agrees with pretty much all I've been arguing since Brawl was released.

I don't like Yuna because he argues with people and insults everything people say and treats them like idiots.

Some people on Smashboards are idiots. But I never say that. That would be against the rules.

He thinks he can hold an arguement and the people he disagrees with can't.

It's not about whether or not someone disagrees, it's about how they go about disagreeing.

Exhibit A:
Person: "Ness is really, really good. He can combo you to death!" (true argument)
Me: "In what alternate universe?! There is no such thing!"

Exhibit B:
Person: "Ness is really, really good. His PKT2 is reliable, yaddi, yaddi, yadda!"
Me: "If the opponent is an idiot!"

Exhibit C:
Person: "Ness is really, really good. He's got this specific combo, these specific qualities, this specific strategy."
Me: "I disagree. X, Y and Z are pretty good, but they are still not enough for him to compete for a top spot because of A, B and C. He's also got..."

He won't function like a normal person in arguements, he insults what people say instead of simply proving it wrong, he makes everything an unneeded hastle for everyone he disagrees with.

I provde people wrong and insults what they're saying at the same time. Some of us are just awesome enough to do that. I never say "This is stupid!" without actually elaborating on why it's stupid.

A person like that who can't argue normally doesn't need to be on Smash Boards.

75% of Smashboards would have to go because of this.

Look at his signature, he says people who can't argue should leave Smash Boards, when he's a prime example of what he says.

I'm sorry, have you read my sig?

It says: "Those who know what they're talking about and can have intelligent discussions talk"

Only people who both don't know what they're talking about and are unable to have intelligent discussion should leave. This was an ironic response to "Those who talk, talk, those who play, play", but it's also a belief of mine.

If you both have no idea about the deeper aspects of Smash and are unable to have intelligent discussions, then you shouldn't participate in discussions where both are needed. Of course, one quote cannot contain all of that, so it's condensed into those two sentences.

And, hey, no infractions for sig violation.

Everyone he argues with wants him to follow his own advice, because by looking at the way he argued with Patsie on the "Infinites: Why Exactly are they allowed?" thread. The way he acts is a great example of how not to hold a discussion. I don't take part in Ness arguements because I barely know anything about Ness, so I avoid it. Telling me to argue with Yuna wouldn't prove anything.

Quotes on what I did wrong besides misread some of his posts. He did some misreading of his own. And he kept repeating the same stuff over and over again despite me having established how Competitive Smash and Competitive videogaming in general works and that while his arguments sound very nice and dapper, it just doesn't work that way.

You don't ban people for being *******s. Is being an ******* enough to be banned? Even if you aren't actually doing any assholy? But what if someone is being an *******? It has to be in such a way it breaks the rules. That's right, you have to be breaking rules to be banned.

Either that of the TOS or rules imposed on specific threads, either in the OP or later on by a mod. If a mob says "Stop discussing this!", then continuing such a discussion would be against the rules. Ignore it once, it's infractions, ignoring it many times, it might result in a ban.

I might toe the line a few times but I never actively break the rules (unless I miss a mod's arguing to stop discussing something). I have, in fact, on many occasions stopped abruply in the middle of a discussion upon a mod's urging. It's called being smart, know the boundaries and knowing how to accurately toeing the line without every passing it.

Are you questioning the judgments of every single mod on SWF? Because, really, if I so deserve to be banned, one of them should've given me one infraction for anything other than "minor spam" by now.

AFAIK, it doesn't matter if you're completely right or completely wrong on something; if you flame/troll someone, it's still flaming/trolling.

I agree. However, the question here is whether or not what I do is actually flaming and/or trolling. Some people have very low tolerance for anything that isn't 100% friendly.

I usually remain civil, even when I'm ironic, sarcastic, snarky and condescending. Just because I "raise my voice" a little doesn't mean I'm flaming. Just because I'm a little harsh doesn't mena I'm trolling either.

I'm sorry if this was already stated, but Dguy had his ban removed when the issue was brought to the attention of an Admin.

Veggi's case just went out f the window.

 

[MarKO X]

I agree. However, the question here is whether or not what I do is actually flaming and/or trolling. Some people have very low tolerance for anything that isn't 100% friendly.

I usually remain civil, even when I'm ironic, sarcastic, snarky and condescending. Just because I "raise my voice" a little doesn't mean I'm flaming. Just because I'm a little harsh doesn't mena I'm trolling either.

Yup. It's difficult for some to understand tones of voice on the net. Hell, I bet that if we were having this discussion in real life, Yuna would be the life of the party.

I'll give Veggi points for having the grapes to challenge authority, as some people don't like doing that, but at the same time, when you do challenge authority, it's better to have your facts and ideas on point. Otherwise, you look like a useless mecenary.

 

[cutter]

How is it trolling if you are completely correct on an issue in a relevant topic?

Like this for example:

Captain Falcon is top tier!!!

Captain Falcon is not top tier you noobish idiot. He has no priority, can't combo like he did in Melee, and has abysmal matchups. Do you even know how to play Smash?

^ That person is completely correct, Captain Falcon is obviously not a top tier character and he gives reasons why. However, he had to flame and troll UnnamedNewbie-x to get his point across.

 

[Yuna]

I'll give Veggi points for having the grapes to challenge authority, as some people don't like doing that, but at the same time, when you do challenge authority, it's better to have your facts and ideas on point. Otherwise, you look like a useless mecenary.

Oh no! Did you just flame some unnamed person, possibly making allusions to He(-In-This-Thread)-Who-Mustl-Not-Be-Named? Ban!

 

[PassWurD]

Like this for example:





^ That person is completely correct, Captain Falcon is obviously not a top tier character and he gives reasons why. However, he had to flame and troll UnnamedNewbie-x to get his point across.

If someone thinks CF is top tier, then they are infact a noobish idiot who doesn't know how to play smash.

It's not hard to take a few minutes out of your day to actually read something in SWF, especially if you're trying to compete competitively.

 

[M.K]

As a Lucas main/secondary, many people don't take him seriously. I can not tell you how many people have been caught up in my PKT2. You can't disregard the fact that in the 4-5 tournaments I've played in, about 2-4 3-game opponents get caught up while trying to gimp him. I'm sorry, but you just can't disprove real-life experience with "your facts".
Lucas is NOT low tier quality, he is at least mid-mid or high-mid tier.

 

[Noraa]

Can we get back on topic?

 

[Levitas]

BTW, check out starmen.net right now, as there is going to be a speedrun of all the earthbound/mother games in sequence streaming live.

 

[Yuna]

As a Lucas main/secondary, many people don't take him seriously. I can not tell you how many people have been caught up in my PKT2. You can't disregard the fact that in the 4-5 tournaments I've played in, about 2-4 3-game opponents get caught up while trying to gimp him. I'm sorry, but you just can't disprove real-life experience with "your facts".
Lucas is NOT low tier quality, he is at least mid-mid or high-mid tier.

They screwed up an edgeguard. That doesn't make it a reliable KO move or reliable anything. How about they stop screwing up their edgeguards? And if they can't, just not try to jump out and whack you while you're recovering, which would make PKT2 a pretty OK recovery, but still not a reliable weapon.

 

[Brinzy]

^ I shall tune in.

I'm sorry, but you just can't disprove real-life experience with "your facts".

Then I'm sure you'll enjoy this very statement that I've used over the years of debating people who play Fire Emblem and make claims that only apply to themselves:

Personal experience means nothing.

So you got that crappy unit over there to cap every stat? Good for you, but that doesn't mean your experience > facts.

So you played some tournaments and people failed to gimp Lucas? Good for you, but that doesn't mean he can't be gimped. I think we were mainly on NESS anyway as far as gimping goes outside of swatting PKT, but the point remains that what happens to YOU doesn't amount to two squirts of piss when it comes to the facts, and you better learn this quickly.

Not to mention, PKT2 as a weapon is still unreliable, so lol @ that.

 

[M.K]

^ I shall tune in.



Then I'm sure you'll enjoy this very statement that I've used over the years of debating people who play Fire Emblem and make claims that only apply to themselves:

Personal experience means nothing.

So you got that crappy unit over there to cap every stat? Good for you, but that doesn't mean your experience > facts.

So you played some tournaments and people failed to gimp Lucas? Good for you, but that doesn't mean he can't be gimped. I think we were mainly on NESS anyway as far as gimping goes outside of swatting PKT, but the point remains that what happens to YOU doesn't amount to two squirts of piss when it comes to the facts, and you better learn this quickly.

Not to mention, PKT2 as a weapon is still unreliable, so lol @ that.

Wow, ok, so where do these "facts" come from? Are they made up from thin air? Uh, no. They come from what? Oh yeah, people in tournaments. Those people are telling YOU what happens.
@ Yuna, exactly, I never said it was the best, but sometimes it happens, and when it does, it isn't some rinky-dink thing.
It seems like anything anyone tries to say that legitamately uses Ness and Lucas just gets shot down by these "facts". Show the facts to me, alright? You don't use them, and you probably haven't seen an ounce of a good Ness/Lucas player.
I never said PKT2 was a good weapon, any n00b can tell you that fact. So no ****, sherlock.

 

[Brinzy]

Where do the facts come from? Tournaments, correct. What do you think people who post this stuff participate in? Hmmm? Think about it for a while.... and.... bingo, those people who tell "me" things are the same people that I tell things to. In other words, the facts are coming from myself and other players.

The "facts" that we were talking about was dealing with PKT2 as a weapon, and you mentioned something about not getting gimped and then "lol screw your "facts", this happens in a tourney!" The facts we were talking about had nothing to do with someone getting caught up in edgeguarding Lucas, so you were already divided on the subject that was ahead of you, so I decided to address your main point (stopping Lucas's recovery, which isn't even the main issue here) as well as the current one (is PKT2 a reliable move or not).

I would like to tell you that I am, indeed, a Ness main and I used to also play Lucas. I know stuff like this happens. I do have experience with them and I do know what generally works and doesn't work, so I have "real-life experience." I also have "facts"; PKT2 is not a fast move and it's not a reliable killing move at that. I don't see why the facts can't measure up to "real-life" experience in general... unless you're talking about your own personal experience vs. facts that apply to everyone, in which case your experience still loses out. "Hey this person messed up an edgeguard, so facts don't matter!" is essentially what you just said.

And you want someone to show facts to you? Why don't you read this thread for all the facts that you could ask for? I'm not going to repeat everything, but as far as I'm concerned with PKT2 as a weapon:

- it can be reacted to relatively easier than most moves, making it not as reliable as most
- it doesn't always ensure a kill
- it can be punished just as much as any other move, perhaps a bit more because it can be telegraphed

If you agree that "anyone knows PKT2 isn't a good weapon", then why are you going against the facts that are being presented that are pushing PKT2 into the "not a good weapon" zone? Instead of whining at the people who are shooting down anything that makes Ness/Lucas look better than they really are, why don't you address those players who try to argue for Ness but don't even know that PKT2 doesn't stop when you hit something? Conveniently, you have nothing to say to them but you're up in arms at people who have refuted the crap said in this thread time and time again. The only "fact" you brought was:

"You can't disregard the fact that in the 4-5 tournaments I've played in, about 2-4 3-game opponents get caught up while trying to gimp him."

... as if this is some common knowledge thing that is set in stone. HEY, WHO CARES IF THIS CAN HAPPEN TO NESS/LUCAS; 2-4 PEOPLE GOT CAUGHT UP AGAINST ME, SO THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS, PERIOD! SCREW FACTS AND WHAT CAN HAPPEN, BECAUSE THIS WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN YO!


If you're just trying to say that he's underrated, say that. If you're trying to say, "Oh, he's underrated and facts don't matter because I've caught people off guard", then you're saying nothing that can be of use to anyone but you and any person who is delusional enough to accept that.

 

[M.K]

Where do the facts come from? Tournaments, correct. What do you think people who post this stuff participate in? Hmmm? Think about it for a while.... and.... bingo, those people who tell "me" things are the same people that I tell things to. In other words, the facts are coming from myself and other players.

The "facts" that we were talking about was dealing with PKT2 as a weapon, and you mentioned something about not getting gimped and then "lol screw your "facts", this happens in a tourney!" The facts we were talking about had nothing to do with someone getting caught up in edgeguarding Lucas, so you were already divided on the subject that was ahead of you, so I decided to address your main point (stopping Lucas's recovery, which isn't even the main issue here) as well as the current one (is PKT2 a reliable move or not).

I would like to tell you that I am, indeed, a Ness main and I used to also play Lucas. I know stuff like this happens. I do have experience with them and I do know what generally works and doesn't work, so I have "real-life experience." I also have "facts"; PKT2 is not a fast move and it's not a reliable killing move at that. I don't see why the facts can't measure up to "real-life" experience in general... unless you're talking about your own personal experience vs. facts that apply to everyone, in which case your experience still loses out. "Hey this person messed up an edgeguard, so facts don't matter!" is essentially what you just said.

And you want someone to show facts to you? Why don't you read this thread for all the facts that you could ask for? I'm not going to repeat everything, but as far as I'm concerned with PKT2 as a weapon:

- it can be reacted to relatively easier than most moves, making it not as reliable as most
- it doesn't always ensure a kill
- it can be punished just as much as any other move, perhaps a bit more because it can be telegraphed

If you agree that "anyone knows PKT2 isn't a good weapon", then why are you going against the facts that are being presented that are pushing PKT2 into the "not a good weapon" zone? Instead of whining at the people who are shooting down anything that makes Ness/Lucas look better than they really are, why don't you address those players who try to argue for Ness but don't even know that PKT2 doesn't stop when you hit something? Conveniently, you have nothing to say to them but you're up in arms at people who have refuted the crap said in this thread time and time again. The only "fact" you brought was:

"You can't disregard the fact that in the 4-5 tournaments I've played in, about 2-4 3-game opponents get caught up while trying to gimp him."

... as if this is some common knowledge thing that is set in stone. HEY, WHO CARES IF THIS CAN HAPPEN TO NESS/LUCAS; 2-4 PEOPLE GOT CAUGHT UP AGAINST ME, SO THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS, PERIOD! SCREW FACTS AND WHAT CAN HAPPEN, BECAUSE THIS WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN YO!


If you're just trying to say that he's underrated, say that. If you're trying to say, "Oh, he's underrated and facts don't matter because I've caught people off guard", then you're saying nothing that can be of use to anyone but you and any person who is delusional enough to accept that.

I'm definetly not saying that facts don't matter, so I guess he is just underrated. Sorry for the misunderstanding of terms.
What I CAN say though, is that if the opponent makes a mistake, Ness/Lucas can certainly captilize on their downfall.

 

[Brinzy]

Well ok, I see where you're coming from. My apologies if I offended.

 

[Yuna]

What I CAN say though, is that if the opponent makes a mistake, Ness/Lucas can certainly captilize on their downfall.

So can pretty much every single character in the game.

 

[Nestec]

Praying is situational. Praying is not easy to pull off. Praying is still slowish since you have to, you know, steer PKT1.

The "slowish" comment brings back the "Speed of PKT" argument. I'm not even gonna address it, since we went in circles on that one.

No good player will constantly put themselves directly above Ness for him to Pray (because they would know about Praying).

When you are thrown into the air by any upward-sending move, you have no choice. And you don't have to be directly above. But I will admit you have to be pretty close, otherwise the circle of the tail will take too long to complete. And I'm not seeing how any player can get out of the reach of "praying", unless they have good aerial movement.

And for the last time, if you know that you can't airdodge PKT1 without eating the tail, just eat the head!

I'm still not understanding how you would go about eating the head. (), when the whole PKT moves faster than your character does.

---

@Raphael:

You go to a FE forum? Which one??

@ earlier argument:

I think Yuna's arguments come off as offensive because he is sort of sarcastic in the way he speaks/types. I'm not hating on Yuna, but it's much more uncomfortable to argue with him when compared to someone else like, say, Successor of Raphael.

 

[Yuna]

When you are thrown into the air by any upward-sending move, you have no choice.

I'm sorry, Ness has what moves with almost no knockback that sends the opponent almost solely upwards now? It has to have little knockback, otherwise there's no way he'll be able to combo into PKT1's tail at KO-percentages.

Also, ever heard of DI? We know about Praying. Thus, we DI away from him. So what attacks does he have that sends you almost straight upwards that are very fast and with very few freeze frames so that we can't just DI away from him?

And you don't have to be directly above. But I will admit you have to be pretty close, otherwise the circle of the tail will take too long to complete. And I'm not seeing how any player can get out of the reach of "praying", unless they have good aerial movement.

DI and aerial control after DI.

I'm still not understanding how you would go about eating the head. (), when the whole PKT moves faster than your character does.

Because it is impossible to send both the head and the tail at the opponent at the same time!

PKT1 is coming at you. Either it's the head or it's the tail. If it's the tail, then you friggin' airdodge it and air control away. Chances are, even if you eventually do get hit, you'll be out of reach from PKT2 since you'll be so far away he'll either just whiff you or not have enough time to steer PKT1 back into him and nail you with PKT2.

If it's the head, then you either take the hit or you swat out of existence. You speak as if there's a magical way to force someone to eat the tail without any chances of preventing it.

I think Yuna's arguments come off as offensive because he is sort of sarcastic in the way he speaks/types. I'm not hating on Yuna, but it's much more uncomfortable to argue with him when compared to someone else like, say, Successor of Raphael.

It's because I call BS when I see BS. I call them as I see them.

 

[Nestec]

I'm sorry, Ness has what moves with almost no knockback that sends the opponent almost solely upwards now? It has to have little knockback, otherwise there's no way he'll be able to combo into PKT1's tail at KO-percentages.

He doesn't have to combo into it. Even if the enemy is just falling from the air (and if their 2nd jump is lost), Ness can jump up once or twice and meet them up there.

Also, ever heard of DI? We know about Praying. Thus, we DI away from him. So what attacks does he have that sends you almost straight upwards that are very fast and with very few freeze frames so that we can't just DI away from him?

Uair isn't difficult to land.

DI and aerial control after DI.

Ness can move in the air also, until he emits PKT. And after he emits PKT, there is little time to get any farther away from him because of PKT can move faster than an aerial opponent.

Because it is impossible to send both the head and the tail at the opponent at the same time!

PKT1 is coming at you. Either it's the head or it's the tail. If it's the tail, then you friggin' airdodge it and air control away. Chances are, even if you eventually do get hit, you'll be out of reach from PKT2 since you'll be so far away he'll either just whiff you or not have enough time to steer PKT1 back into him and nail you with PKT2.

If it's the head, then you either take the hit or you swat out of existence. You speak as if there's a magical way to force someone to eat the tail without any chances of preventing it.

If Ness is "praying", he won't even try to attack with the head.

And if you do get hit, you won't be out of reach, you will be stunned and exposed to PKT2. You can't DI that far enough away in time unless you are someone like Wario or Jigglypuff.

It's because I call BS when I see BS. I call them as I see them.

Well, not even that. So many other people call BS when they see it, but do it without coming off so coldly. I don't think it's what you do, but rather how you do it.

 

[Yuna]

He doesn't have to combo into it. Even if the enemy is just falling from the air (and if their 2nd jump is lost), Ness can jump up once or twice and meet them up there.

Ness is not the fastest jumper. If he has to jump first, the opponent will have enough time to get out of hitstun and DI and air control away.

Uair isn't difficult to land.

Uair is situational and it's got a lot of knockback.

Ness can move in the air also, until he emits PKT. And after he emits PKT, there is little time to get any farther away from him because of PKT can move faster than an aerial opponent.

And the opponent will do what while Ness chases them with his jumps and then PKT1, exactly? Twiddle their thums and somehow levitate in midair (Peach-style)? Also, PKT1 can move fastish, yah. But how will you be able to move it to the opponent and turn it around for the tail to hit them without them first having the time to get away?

If Ness is "praying", he won't even try to attack with the head.

It takes a while, though. Time I'm not going to sit around floating as Peach just waiting to get Prayed.

And if you do get hit, you won't be out of reach, you will be stunned and exposed to PKT2. You can't DI that far enough away in time unless you are someone like Wario or Jigglypuff.

Since when do you get immobolized by the tail? You can still flick the control stick to get out of hitstun. You can still DI away. If you're far enough away from Ness, he won't have the time to make PKT1 return to whack him into PKT2 before you get away from it (or just get out of hitstun and are able to airdodge it).

Post some vids where you magically do all of these outlandish things you claim are possible.

Well, not even that. So many other people call BS when they see it, but do it without coming off so coldly. I don't think it's what you do, but rather how you do it.

Because I believe in quashing stupidity while it's still blossoming to prevent it from spreading beyond help.

 

[Nestec]

Ness is not the fastest jumper. If he has to jump first, the opponent will have enough time to get out of hitstun and DI and air control away.

Ness can also move left/right whenever the enemy can, I'm not understanding how the enemy is getting away.

Uair is situational and it's got a lot of knockback.

Enough knockback so that Ness can land, and be back in the air in time to encounter the falling opponent.

And the opponent will do what while Ness chases them with his jumps and then PKT1, exactly? Twiddle their thums and somehow levitate in midair (Peach-style)? Also, PKT1 can move fastish, yah. But how will you be able to move it to the opponent and turn it around for the tail to hit them without them first having the time to get away?

If the tail hits them, they'll be stunned. And if their airdodge was timed wrong, they'll be stunned again as soon as the first stun time wears off. I'll admit that at times, the airdodge can be timed well enough to only be hit by the very end of tail. If that happens, then yeah, they can escape.

Since when do you get immobolized by the tail? You can still flick the control stick to get out of hitstun. You can still DI away. If you're far enough away from Ness, he won't have the time to make PKT1 return to whack him into PKT2 before you get away from it (or just get out of hitstun and are able to airdodge it).

^^what I said earlier. That scenario is possible, but only if you're far enough away from Ness. Which is even more unlikely if you're a character with not-so exceptional aerial movement.

Post some vids where you magically do all of these outlandish things you claim are possible.

I'm lacking, 1) a video-capturing device and 2) the skill a Ness main needs to have good enough PKT coordination. Thus, I can only perfectly nail Lvl 9 cpus with it. >___<

Because I believe in quashing stupidity while it's still blossoming to prevent it from spreading beyond help.

Forget it, lol, this is irrelevant.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Ness can also move left/right whenever the enemy can, I'm not understanding how the enemy is getting away.

your opponent is moving down and sideways while you are moving down (you are using PKT atm, eventually this is the situation you will be in)

Enough knockback so that Ness can land, and be back in the air in time to encounter the falling opponent.

While they DI away, read above

If the tail hits them, they'll be stunned. And if their airdodge was timed wrong, they'll be stunned again as soon as the first stun time wears off. I'll admit that at times, the airdodge can be timed well enough to only be hit by the very end of tail. If that happens, then yeah, they can escape.

the tail is now able to stop in midair and tail>AD>tail still?

I can only perfectly nail Lvl 9 cpus with it. >___<

that sums it up perfectly

 

[Yuna]

Ness can also move left/right whenever the enemy can, I'm not understanding how the enemy is getting away.

Because he'll be lagging from whatever move he just launched the opponent with. During this time, you'll be able to DI away. Now, sure, he can chase them and then PKT1 them, but by that time, they'll already be out of hitstun and most probably already be moving towards the ground.

Then PKT1 has to chase them, giving them even more time to get to the ground. Not to mention that when Ness throws PKT1 out and chases them, it gives them even more time to DI away so that even if they get tailwhipped, it won't lead into PKT1 especially since it'd require PKT1 to be relatively far away from Ness for its tail to hit them, thus ensuring he won't have enough time to double back it into PKT2.

Get it?

Enough knockback so that Ness can land, and be back in the air in time to encounter the falling opponent.

You just don't get it, do you? If there's a lot of knockback, they'll get knocked out of range for PKT1 and quite possibly PKT2.

If the tail hits them, they'll be stunned.

Not for infinity.

And if their airdodge was timed wrong, they'll be stunned again as soon as the first stun time wears off.

Yes, let's assume that people won't know how to time their airdodges! Every single one of them will be timed wrong!

I'll admit that at times, the airdodge can be timed well enough to only be hit by the very end of tail. If that happens, then yeah, they can escape.

So you finally admit that PKT1 can actually be airdodged well enough.

^^what I said earlier. That scenario is possible, but only if you're far enough away from Ness. Which is even more unlikely if you're a character with not-so exceptional aerial movement.

Or anyone who can DI... or have more than 10-20%, because, really, what the heck does Ness have that is almost lagless, hard to DI away from him and that has almost no knockback?

I'm lacking, 1) a video-capturing device and 2) the skill a Ness main needs to have good enough PKT coordination. Thus, I can only perfectly nail Lvl 9 cpus with it. >___<

All you have to do is show us in training mode how to do these spectacular tricks with PKT1 that are so obviously possible. Or vs. an unmanned controller and then save the replay and send it to someone with a capture card.

Or, I don't know, watch videos of Simna and pinpoint where and when he does these spectacular things. If they're possible and relatively easy to do and happen often enough, you'd think there'd be one video of it somewhere.

 

[Brinzy]

You go to a FE forum? Which one??

IGN's FE forum, FEPlanet, a few others from time to time. Been doing it for a few years now.

 

[Nestec]

Aack, whatever, I give up. I don't find any point or meaning in arguing this anymore...
I'm wrong and you guys are right. ;P I'm done.


@Successor: What was your account on FEPlanet?? I used to post there.

 

[Yuna]

Aack, whatever, I give up. I don't find any point or meaning in arguing this anymore...
I'm wrong and you guys are right. ;P I'm done.

So you were all fine with arguing that something was doable and actually so doable it should happen relatively frequently (or in the words of some people: "regularly"), yet when called on it, you're unable to both do it yourself (either captured or as a replay) or find examples of the things you claim are possible on Youtube?

I mean, you were all fine about arguing your brains out 'til I demanded you show video proof.

 

[Nestec]

I've searched on youtube already, believe me.

And the next time I land PKT2 Praying on a Lvl. 9 CPU, I'll save a replay or something. It wouldn't mean too much though since it is only a CPU.

 

[Yuna]

I didn't demand a video of praying.

 

[Nestec]

Well, you weren't very specific when you said, "all of these outlandish things you claim are possible."

 

[Brinzy]

@Successor: What was your account on FEPlanet?? I used to post there.

Brinzé, but I stopped posting a while ago there.

 

[Yuna]

Well, you weren't very specific when you said, "all of these outlandish things you claim are possible."

I've never ever claimed that Praying isn't possible. I've actually namedropped it several times, stating that outside of Praying, there is no reliable way to combo into PKT2 (and that Praying is very situational).

As such, Praying wouldn't fall into the category of the "outlandish things you claim are possible" that I want video proof of.

 

[Nestec]

>___<
Tell me I'm not losing my mind.
Ok, you know that's what I was arguing about a little while ago, right? Just trying to make sure we were on the same page.