Where would Ness and Lucas rank on Tier Lists if it wasn't for their infinites?

[Snail]

I can Falcon Punch players once a match, it hits regularly and is a useful KOing move!

Ness has some things going for him, but KOing ability with PKT2 is not one of them...

 

[Yuna]

Back to the discussion, I myself am a little confused about what it is that is being argued.

We're arguing many things, among them:
* Whether PKT2 is situational
* Whether PKT2 is easy to hit with/Whether it's a reliable KO move/Whether it regularly hits (it's all pretty much the same argument)

 

[Brinzy]

"Often" is subjective, so there's no point in discussing that. If it hits once and kills once, it is a force to fear. One kill every match by one move is really often.

First of all, you can only rely on the "subjective" argument for so long until it makes you look like you're saying that everyone has differing opinions, which says nothing.

Second, and probably most important, is the fact that PKT2 is not an instant kill move. Landing it is one thing, but that could mean anything. You can land it at the beginning, the middle, or the very end, it doesn't matter so long as it lands. It will not kill someone until they're way past 100% unless you hit them with it with the beginning of the move, which means either someone failed to swat PKT from around Ness, they failed an edgeguard, or they simply did not react properly to said move. If you're hit by the move at any other point, chances are you're still alive, but hey, there goes your landing it once per match.

Landing it does not ensure a kill, so your second sentence does not apply to PKT2 (if you fear PKT2, you're facing a godly Ness or you just suck at reacting), and your third holds water on its own, but not in reference to PKT2, because it's not an instant kill move and it certainly is not reliable.

 

[OrlanduEX]

First of all, THERE IS NO TIER LIST YET.

The game is 6 months old and there are 39 characters. We haven't play tested all the characters nearly enough to make a truly solid, reliable list organizing them.

Second of all, characters do not get bumped up or down on tier lists because of a few bad match-ups. From what I understand, Ness and Lucas can only be infinite grabbed consistently by a small handful of characters. Plenty of other characters in Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl are susceptible to infinites and that didn't prevent them from being great.

All the Melee top tiers were vulnerable to one infinite or another. Space Animals agonized in 0 to death chain throws by Marth and still dominated the metagame. Sheik got wrecked by Ice Climbers and was still considered one of the best characters in the game (the best by some).

If Ness and Lucas end up being low tier on the tier list (which seems likely at this point), it won't be because a few characters can infinite grab them.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Landing it does not ensure a kill, so your second sentence does not apply to PKT2 (if you fear PKT2, you're facing a godly Ness or you just suck at reacting), and your third holds water on its own, but not in reference to PKT2, because it's not an instant kill move and it certainly is not reliable.[/QUOTE]
If you hit Ness with it and then hit your opponent, it is a kill move.

"Facing a godly Ness" or "sucking at reacting" doesn't mean you get hit. Everyone can get hit, it doesn't matter if you suck at reacting or not.

It is not a reliable killing move, and it is hard to hit, but it's still possible to kill with it every match.

 

[Yuna]

It is not a reliable killing move, and it is hard to hit, but it's still possible to kill with it every match.

Anything is possible. Doesn't mean it's relevant to discussions about character potential.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

If Ness and Lucas end up being low tier on the tier list (which seems likely at this point), it won't be because a few characters can infinite grab them.

yeah it's more about the free hits everyone gets

they'd only be mid tier anyway

 

[Brinzy]

If you hit Ness with it and then hit your opponent, it is a kill move.

"Facing a godly Ness" or "sucking at reacting" doesn't mean you get hit. Everyone can get hit, it doesn't matter if you suck at reacting or not.

It is not a reliable killing move, and it is hard to hit, but it's still possible to kill with it every match.

Pay attention. It is not an instant kill move, as it does not kill at any % and hitting with the later part may not kill someone in the triple digits.

Yes, everyone can get hit by it. However, not everyone who gets hit by it once dies from it once, and certainly not everyone fears it, because it's slow. Do you fear PK Flash when it's fully charged? If you do not, then you, yourself refute your own statement,

"If it hits once and kills once, it is a force to fear."

If you want to try and abide by your logic and say that you do fear the slowest projectile in the game because it can hit once and kill once, then you're saying that you're killed by PK Flash at least once per game... which effectively tosses out any shred of sense you were trying to make because you're getting hit by slow moves that don't kill "often" unless you spam them to the point where that's all you do for the most part.

Your argument is pretty much irrelevant anyway, but regardless, your logic isn't making sense.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Anything is possible. Doesn't mean it's relevant to discussions about character potential.

Didn't you see the "every match" part? That is relevant. You troll, a lot. Like this post.

Pay attention. It is not an instant kill move, as it does not kill at any % and hitting with the later part may not kill someone in the triple digits.

It is if you hit yourself with it. Almost no moves are instant kill moves, I was talking about the hit rate.

Yes, everyone can get hit by it. However, not everyone who gets hit by it once dies from it once, and certainly not everyone fears it, because it's slow. Do you fear PK Flash when it's fully charged? If you do not, then you, yourself refute your own statement,

"If it hits once and kills once, it is a force to fear."

Again, I was talking about the hit rate. Not about the potential to kill.

Don't respond to this, this is a bull**** discussion. Could we please go back to the main topic.

 

[Brinzy]

Didn't you see the "every match" part? That is relevant. You troll, a lot. Liek thsi post.

Uh, obviously he read your post because you said it can kill every match, and he said, "Anything is possible."

Most of your posts have been irrelevant. "Often is subjective! Don't argue from dictionaries! You can kill with it every match because the wonderful world of Smash Brothers allows virtually anything to happen in matches!" (Obviously that's not how you said it, but that's essentially what you're getting across.)

Doesn't mean we're trolling you. If we were, we'd be warned/banned by now.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Who cares about PKT honestly? It's a relatively predicatable attack with a lot of kill power.
Thread over.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Don't respond to this, this is a bull**** discussion. Could we please go back to the main topic.

THIS IS THE MAIN TOPIC. If you read the beginning of this thread you'd know that the consensus (even from yuna) is that their mid tier. It then elaborated to why not hight because PKT2 IS GODLY!!!!1!11. So seriously, all you're doing is repeating the same arguments, losing, trying again with more recycled arguments, losing, and crying about it.

 

[Brinzy]

Who cares about PKT honestly? It's a relatively predicatable attack with a lot of kill power.
Thread over.

Thread doesn't end with you. You end nothing but your own posts if you're tired of discussing what we're discussing.

It is if you hit yourself with it. Almost no moves are instant kill moves, I was talking about the hit rate.

*smacks forehead*

I've been talking about PKT2 (as in PK THUNDER 2, or when you blast yourself off as Ness) the whole time. What are you arguing, that you mean the blasting attack? Everyone knows what you mean.

The hit rate for it is terrible. You use it to recover and you use it if you miss your PK Thunder and you want to keep yourself safe without flying off the stage. You won't land most of your attempts with the move unless you throw it out like once every five games and you completely outwit your opponent. The hit rate of the move is terrible.

Even if you're just talking about when you land it, I already explained to you that it doesn't ensure an instant kill the moment you land with it. It loses a lot of knockback power near the middle and the end of the move, and at that point, it has less knockback than Ness's sweetspotted bat. It's not a "one hit, -1 stock" attack at all, especially considering its terrible hitrate. Anything that doesn't even have a number of 1 or greater for the number of times it lands has a poor rate of connecting.

Don't respond to this, this is a bull**** discussion. Could we please go back to the main topic.

No, I'll respond to whatever I want to respond to. If you don't want me to respond to you, start making sense or don't post. If you don't want to discuss anything with me from now on in this thread, YOU need not reply, not me.

 

[Yuna]

Didn't you see the "every match" part? That is relevant. You troll, a lot. Like this post.

Once every match =/= Reliable/Often/whatever

We've been through this. It's also amusing how I get accused of trolling (and no doubt reported) at least once a day, yet I've received zero infractions for trolling, language or anything like that.

It is if you hit yourself with it. Almost no moves are instant kill moves, I was talking about the hit rate.

Once per match =/= High

Don't respond to this, this is a bull**** discussion. Could we please go back to the main topic.

The main topic is where on the tierlist Ness and Lucas should be. Whether PKT2 is really good or not is kinda relevant.

 

[Zaim2]

Ness's PKT2, without any sort of tricks or glitches of any kind, at the fastest possible curve, comes out on frame 18. The human brain can detect and react to this move because the human brain is fast enough to get a message to you that says, "Hey, something is going to happen, and you need to do something about it." Even if you're tricked into falling for the move somehow, you can always see PKT come out and you can *conjure* PKT happening before it actually happens. Can you still be hit by it? Of course you can. However, the move can be reacted to because no matter what, the fastest possible PKT2 is still slow enough for the human brain to react to.

But isn't judging the human ability to react to PKT2 purely from frame data alone and categorising it as "slow" inaccurate though? This analysis would completely hit the nail if it were a more linear move, but PKT1 being controlled means that the opposing player is reacting to a novelty everytime so has to interact with the PKT1 in real time. So "conjuring up" the possibility of PKT2 of does little to improve the reaction time the player when it's PKT1 they're actually interacting with.

The "18 frames, therefore slow" only applies if the Ness just PKT2's straight from PKT1 without interaction with the opposing the player.The process of using PKT2 (intelligently) is:

1. Scouting for/Manuevering the opponent into openings with PKT1

2. Using PKT2 when the the opening is found/created

The timeframe between seeing an opening while a PKT1 is out and executing the PKT2 is small, which is why practically you can't call it slow, even though by frame count it is. The framecount is almost irrelevant in terms of whether PKT2 it hits or not because of the mechanics of the PKT1.

It's situational, but when conditions are viable for it's use I wouldn't call it unreliable. Unless you mean the very fact that it's situational means that it's unreliable as a killing move, in which case I'd agree to an extent.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

Yes, that is what we're saying.

And it is slow. Even if comboed into, it's still slow. No matter how you twist and turn it. Comboing into it is situational. It's slow. You rarely hit with it against good players.

 

[Professional Idiot]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned thundersliding yet.

 

[Nestec]

Lol, this argument is getting a little ridiculous. I liked it better when it was just me and Yuna. ;P Jk...

I'm almost about to just call it quits, but I have some points to make.

When the opponent and Ness are aerial and on the stage, Ness can use the technique "Praying" to catch the enemy into PKT2. Normally, this takes place after some juggling or a mere upward-sending attack from Ness. Ness can quite easily position himself so that the enemy is roughly directly above him.

PKT will come out quick. It is steered up into the opponent, but Ness steers its tail into the falling enemy. The enemy can fall straight and airdodge, but then they will be hit by part of the tail after the airdodge ends, and stunned. This is where human reaction becomes useless. You can't do anything because your character is stunned.

If the enemy falls and airdodges to the left or right, they will be hit by the tail anyway, and become stunned.

This is just about the core aspect of "Praying". Stunning the enemy. When they are stunned, it doesn't matter how "slow" PKT2 comes out compared to human reaction. The character is screwed because they cannot move. Human reaction remains useless. It is not difficult to initiate this "stunning" because the tail causes it, and the tail is very long.

I'll admit that "praying" will not work every time (but what KO move does?). Sometimes the steering of the PKT may be off. Sometimes the positioning of Ness beneath his opponent may be off. But the better the Ness player is, the easier these faults become to overcome. PKT+PKT2 relies heavily on the coordination skill of the user. There's not much the airborne enemy can do no matter how skilled he/she is. Aerial movement or airdodge. That's it. The tail cannot be attacked, so aerial attacks don't work. You won't even be able to hit the head, because Ness will quickly move it out of the enemy's way at almost the very beginning.

Now I'll say this: the best way an enemy can avoid "praying" is if the character has exceptional aerial movement, such as Wario, Jigglypuff, or Yoshi (?). Good aerial movement can mess up Ness' positioning for the technique. Just about anyone else will be threatened.

Btw, "praying" is not the only way to land PKT2s. It's just, to my knowledge, the easiest way it is done.

Think of "praying" kills as two different phases.

1. Stunning via PKT: This part is fast, for it is the speed of PKT itself, and requires that you have good aerial control to avoid.

2. Landing the Kill: The actual killing. No matter how slow or easy this phase may be to anticipate, the initial stunning will make it so that there is nothing you can do.

Some of you may already know all of this; sorry if I'm spewing this info for nothing. But it's the best explaining/elaborating I can do right now. Make of it what you will.

 

[Brinzy]

^ Yes... praying is one thing. Praying works.

However, we're not talking about praying (as in, we're not including PKT1 techniques with PKT2, but rather just PKT2 alone). You can set things up so the opponent can avoid it, but no matter what, PKT2 will never exceed that time frame with no outside help, and it will always be, as far as my personal judgment goes, a move that can be seen and reacted to by the human brain. Even if you stop the character from being able to move, the player will ALWAYS see PKT2 itself coming once the beam comes out.

Basically, if a human player is thrown only PKT2 a hundred times and only PKT2 is used, that human player will have the time to react to it, always. This is why I consider the move slow. You can't react to Squirtle's jab or ZSS's jab because of how fast they come out, but you CAN react to PKT2, so long as you can control your character.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned thundersliding yet.

This is Ness, not Lucas.

 

[Nestec]

Lolwtf, just PKT2? No praying? Aah, okay, so we're going secular. XD XD XD

Lol, ok, that's probably not gonna connect much then. The only thing I'm seeing working is if, while at mid-close range, Ness trails PKT off-screen to make it look like he's gonna go for the enemy, but instead wrapping it around to hit himself. It will easily kill the anxious players who get too close. Otherwise, I don't think PKT2 is worth trying. Unless you are POSITIVE it will hit, you shouldn't even try. I find it too easily punished; stick with Bthrow.

But don't get me wrong, with PKT aid and Praying, PKT2 becomes much more devastating.

 

[Yuna]

Praying is situational. Praying is not easy to pull off. Praying is still slowish since you have to, you know, steer PKT1. No good player will constantly put themselves directly above Ness for him to Pray (because they would know about Praying).

I've been namedropping Praying since the very beginning. No, it does not magically make PKT2 hit "regularly".

And for the last time, if you know that you can't airdodge PKT1 without eating the tail, just eat the head!

 

[betterthanbonds9]

there's another reason why it's called praying...

Spoiler

too easy

-shouldn't it be preying?

 

[MarKO X]

there's another reason why it's called praying...

Spoiler

too easy

-shouldn't it be preying?

no, because it doesn't hit or kill often enough to be a predatory move.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Once every match =/= Reliable/Often/whatever

We've been through this. It's also amusing how I get accused of trolling (and no doubt reported) at least once a day, yet I've received zero infractions for trolling, language or anything like that.


Once per match =/= High


The main topic is where on the tierlist Ness and Lucas should be. Whether PKT2 is really good or not is kinda relevant.

One hit and one kill is reliable, just not often.

I don't care you haven't received infractions. Serious spam doesn't get infracted here anyway.

Again, subjective, so why even start about it.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

One hit and one kill is reliable, just not often.

I don't care you haven't received infractions. Serious spam doesn't get infracted here anyway.

Again, subjective, so why even start about it.

No ****ing way. is it really subjective?

(from the DICTIONARY, learn the language and come back)

1re·li·able
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈlī-ə-bəl\
Function:adjective
Date:1569
1 : suitable or fit to be relied on : dependable

Do you RELY on it for kills? No, you find other ways, unless the situation arises, then you take advantage of it. Unless you go for a PKT2 KO most every time your opponent hits 70-100% then you dont rely on it, it isn't often, and it's not any synonym of that, so go read a book and learn english.

yuna doesn't get infractions because yuna is usually right -_-.

 

[NessOnett]

yuna doesn't get infractions because yuna is usually right -_-.

(Yuna is usually right...but not always right). Very competent tournament icons get hit by PKT2...it is not so easy to avoid(as long as it is done right...which most of the time it isn't). and PKJump will essentially be a point-blank style PKFire from a good distance away. Mentioning anything regarding G&W is very subjective as well, considering that is one of the most one-sided matchups in the game.

"Reliable" doesn't mean you'd have to use it EVERY TIME your opponent got into a killing percent. ^Smash is a reliable kill move for Fox, doesn't mean he ALWAYS uses it though. By your definition, no moves are "reliable kills" because every character has multiple attacks that are used for that purpose frequently.

Some of that was response to old stuff, and little of it on-topic...but as me I felt compelled to respond to it. "Infinites" are not what is hurting Ness(and apparently Lucas too) in this case though, It's grab-release in general. Characters get free hits, Wario gets an F-smash, Fox gets an ^Smash, and Marth gets another grab or tipper F-smash(...****). Releasing into the air only works on tall characters, and only in certain circumstances(luckily Marth is tall enough).

Ness is good, he will never be top though...but when people learn to use him right(and by that I mean MORE people), then we will see him rise at least a little bit on the list. He deserves better than to be down there at the bottom...again...

(Didn't cover Lucas because frankly...I DON'T CARE!!!)

 

[Veggi]

yuna doesn't get infractions because yuna is usually right -_-.

I just had to comment on this.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176912&page=70

Look at that thread. He got banned for doing the same thing that Yuna did. The difference? Yuna actually did worse than him. Yuna doesn't get banned because he's usually right? Well apparently the guy in this thread is wrong, because he got banned. Getting banned for being wrong is a joke.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190076

Now look at this thread, it was made as a joke thread. Any new member who made a thread like this would have gotten it locked. Yet this one didn't get locked, now it's full of people sucking up to members with high post counts. This thread wasn't even funny, pikafan's thread was more funny than this one.

It's just a bias torwards members with high post counts and honestly, I'm tired of it. You honestly think Yuna is a better member than dguy, you could actually tell me that with a straight face? Regardless of gaining infractions, any person could tell you that Yuna is a troll.

Who are you to say that members are "usually" right? You have no grounds to say that. Just let people talk until something is decided, if someone is right they'll show it themselves with the arguements they have.

Honestly, I think the mods are too afraid to ban Yuna.

As I see it now, the right decision to...

1.) Apologize to dguy.

2.) Ban Yuna.

3.) Prove me wrong.

I'm still up for opinion changing, so if anyone can prove me wrong and not think they're clever by automatically picking the third one. I'll admit I was wrong.

 

[-Jumpman-]

No ****ing way. is it really subjective?

(from the DICTIONARY, learn the language and come back)

1re·li·able
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈlī-ə-bəl\
Function:adjective
Date:1569
1 : suitable or fit to be relied on : dependable

Do you RELY on it for kills? No, you find other ways, unless the situation arises, then you take advantage of it. Unless you go for a PKT2 KO most every time your opponent hits 70-100% then you dont rely on it, it isn't often, and it's not any synonym of that, so go read a book and learn english.

yuna doesn't get infractions because yuna is usually right -_-.

Yuna says "you can airdodge" and is right? It is true, but doesn't make sense.

"that may be relied on; dependable in achievement", straight from the dictionary. If I can assume I get one kill from it, it sure is dependable in achievement.

 

[Brinzy]

What I saw:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5176679&postcount=1022
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5178857&postcount=1037

Those two were the main ones that caught my eye. You made it sound like he was doing nothing at all, yet he flat out insulted the guy. Don't get me wrong: I'm not backing up Simna or anything (nor do I agree with his ultimate judgment), but I am saying that Yuna did not come in here and go, "Oh, you're some self-proclaimed douche who isn't above any other Ness in Melee" and other points along that line. Not only that, he was WARNED beforehand about replying to Simna (obviously in the manner he was already replying to him):

"One more cool thing, if you reply in this thread to this line of discussion then you will receive major infractions and your post will be edited. Enjoy your real discussion."

Not to mention that other posters weren't even on his side before the ban happened. Must mean that he's obviously not flat out singled out and picked on.

Anyway, the bottom line is that Yuna isn't insulting anyone's skill unless someone says something that Ness can do and then they come up with some crap like, "Omg G&W and Ness are even" or "I can land PKT2 ALLL the time, so PH34R MEH." He's not trolling, and if Yuna is supposed to get banned for trolling, then half of this thread should be banned for stupidity, and we obviously can't have that.

Yuna is attacking ideas and that person was attacking Simna. The most he'll say is something like, "Only idiots would fall for this" or whatever the case is - that does not insult the poster himself. If he does do something, he'll admit to it... but anyway, enough of this, because the differences between the two situations are clear and people just get hung up with "omg u trollin" all the time.


Jumpman, you're STILL not getting it. Hitting with it one time doesn't mean you've got a KO, and if you can't reliably KO with it on average at least once per match, it isn't a reliable KO move. If you want to cling to that average or even less, then that means you have to incorporate the non-killing hits... which lowers the average number that you want to follow from Simna by even more because, again, hitting 1.6 times per game =/= you're KOing each time, and that KOing amount is probably less than one. It is not reliable. Period. If you absolutely rely on PKT2 to kill for you over B-throw, dair, bair, uair, nair, Fsmash, or whatever, then you're not making sense because the others are normally about the same as or more reliable killers than PKT2, because aside from maybe Fsmash and dair, the rest happen so fast that you can only predict it.


I also love how you deliberately stopped talking to me because you wanted to feel like you were right on something and just didn't want me to refute your statements anymore, but I'll humor myself and just keep replying to you. Continue to ignore me if you will, because you're also ignoring the important points of PKT2.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

That was Simna possibly abusing his mod powers. If anything, Simna should be reprimand (or at worst, stripped of his mod powers).

Also, please point out to me where I've openly insulted someone calling people names in this thread.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

(Yuna is usually right...but not always right). Very competent tournament icons get hit by PKT2...it is not so easy to avoid(as long as it is done right...which most of the time it isn't). and PKJump will essentially be a point-blank style PKFire from a good distance away. Mentioning anything regarding G&W is very subjective as well, considering that is one of the most one-sided matchups in the game.

i never mentioned a single matchup and am basing the info off of simna's infamous 1.6/2 matches which is about once a match, whihc is where that derived from

"Reliable" doesn't mean you'd have to use it EVERY TIME your opponent got into a killing percent. ^Smash is a reliable kill move for Fox, doesn't mean he ALWAYS uses it though. By your definition, no moves are "reliable kills" because every character has multiple attacks that are used for that purpose frequently.

simply thing to ask yourself. Are you thinking about using PKT2 when they get to upper %s. I'm not saying you have to KILL with it to be relied upon. But I'm guessing your bair has been perfect shielded at some point before you use PKT2.

Some of that was response to old stuff, and little of it on-topic...but as me I felt compelled to respond to it. "Infinites" are not what is hurting Ness(and apparently Lucas too) in this case though, It's grab-release in general. Characters get free hits, Wario gets an F-smash, Fox gets an ^Smash, and Marth gets another grab or tipper F-smash(...****). Releasing into the air only works on tall characters, and only in certain circumstances(luckily Marth is tall enough).

agreed, and you dont get released into the air as long as you're being hit[/quote]

I just had to comment on this.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176912&page=70

Look at that thread. He got banned for doing the same thing that Yuna did. The difference? Yuna actually did worse than him. Yuna doesn't get banned because he's usually right? Well apparently the guy in this thread is wrong, because he got banned. Getting banned for being wrong is a joke.

are you SERIOUSLY showing that to a me, i was there for that. The mod acted way out of standard and banned a pretty cool guy. Actually I've been surprised why a lot of people in this thread haven't been banned.

Spoiler

i watched that the whole way through >_>. Seriously, did you not read the thread at all and notice that i post in there pretty often?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190076

Now look at this thread, it was made as a joke thread. Any new member who made a thread like this would have gotten it locked. Yet this one didn't get locked, now it's full of people sucking up to members with high post counts. This thread wasn't even funny, pikafan's thread was more funny than this one.

dude, a mod MADE that thread, Mods dont typically ban other mods or lock their threads.

It's just a bias torwards members with high post counts and honestly, I'm tired of it. You honestly think Yuna is a better member than dguy, you could actually tell me that with a straight face? Regardless of gaining infractions, any person could tell you that Yuna is a troll.

i like dguy, i post a lot with him on the lucario boards. He's a cool guy. Usually i hate yuna, just because yuna is such an ***. Does that mean that i hate yuna's style? Yeah, does that mean i hate yuna's argument? No. I dislike Jeter, but i still respect him for how he plays.

Who are you to say that members are "usually" right? You have no grounds to say that. Just let people talk until something is decided, if someone is right they'll show it themselves with the arguements they have.

i have no grounds to say that somebody is right?

So the criteria is "arguments determine who's right". I see yuna arguing a lot and it's typically yuna winning from what i can gather. So that's why i judged yuna to be "usually" right.

As I see it now, the right decision to...

1.) Apologize to dguy.

2.) Ban Yuna.

3.) Prove me wrong.

I'm still up for opinion changing, so if anyone can prove me wrong and not think they're clever by automatically picking the third one. I'll admit I was wrong.

1. agree
2. because you don't like yuna's style? Prove yuna wrong then and take a victory lap
3. Why is that relevant to the "right decision"?

Yuna says "you can airdodge" and is right? It is true, but doesn't make sense.

"that may be relied on; dependable in achievement", straight from the dictionary.com. If I can assume I get one kill from it, it sure is dependable in achievement.

what?

ahh topicality, how i love thee. dictionary.com is annoying and i personally dont use it because the definitions are low in substance. When arguing definitions (which sadly a lot of policy debates end up in) you should say why your source is better, that way people (the judges) know who wins it.

so many things wrong with that last statement.
1. you can assume a HIT, yeah, if it were an instant kill move then it'd be a reliable kill move.
2. praying is situational and is easy to avoid%

 

[Veggi]

What I saw:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5176679&postcount=1022
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5178857&postcount=1037


Those two were the main ones that caught my eye. You made it sound like he was doing nothing at all, yet he flat out insulted the guy.

Have you seen the posts Yuna makes? They're worse than that. Plus he doesn't just flat out insult him, he adressed everything he said.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not backing up Simna or anything (nor do I agree with his ultimate judgment), but I am saying that Yuna did not come in here and go, "Oh, you're some self-proclaimed douche who isn't above any other Ness in Melee" and other points along that line.

Neither did dguy. Yuna has gone through posts, quoted people and replaced everything they said with "bunch of BS" and other things worse than what dguy did.

Not only that, he was WARNED beforehand about replying to Simna (obviously in the manner he was already replying to him):
"One more cool thing, if you reply in this thread to this line of discussion then you will receive major infractions and your post will be edited. Enjoy your real discussion."

Everyone with a spine would have done that. I would never let someone cheat their way out of a discussion through threat of a ban. Also, sounds like Simna likes to insult people too, just like so many other people on Smash Boards. Especially Yuna.

Not to mention that other posters weren't even on his side before the ban happened. Must mean that he's obviously not flat out singled out and picked on.

I don't understand where this fits in, sorry. Might be my fault.

Anyway, the bottom line is that Yuna isn't insulting anyone's skill unless someone says something that Ness can do and then they come up with some crap like, "Omg G&W and Ness are even" or "I can land PKT2 ALLL the time, so PH34R MEH."

Sounds like dguy and Simna, with dguy being in Yuna's position.

He's not trolling, and if Yuna is supposed to get banned for trolling, then half of this thread should be banned for stupidity, and we obviously can't have that.

Yuna's posts are flooded with unneeded insults, he doesn't know how to discuss anything normally. Exactly, having dguy banned before Yuna was an obvious flaw. Something's wrong.

Yuna is attacking ideas and that person was attacking Simna. The most he'll say is something like, "Only idiots would fall for this" or whatever the case is - that does not insult the poster himself.

Filling in quote boxes with "bunch of BS" sounds like an insult to me, telling people their ideas are trash. Insulting someone's arguing ability is better than insulting someone's playing ability?

If he does do something, he'll admit to it... but anyway, enough of this, because the differences between the two situations are clear and people just get hung up with "omg u trollin" all the time.

The only time I've ever seen that happen was when it would get him out of a situation where people would make fun of what he said. Which the one I remember went something around the line of Yuna telling someone that he meant to type "I hate it when people color their posts" rather than "I hate people who color their posts."

That was Simna possibly abusing his mod powers. If anything, Simna should be reprimand (or at worst, stripped of his mod powers).

Also, please point out to me where I've openly insulted someone calling people names in this thread.

I don't remember having a requirement of adressing people by an insulting name. Although for me to assume you havn't would be a pretty big gamble.

are you SERIOUSLY showing that to a me, i was there for that. The mod acted way out of standard and banned a pretty cool guy. Actually I've been surprised why a lot of people in this thread haven't been banned.

Spoiler

i watched that the whole way through >_>. Seriously, did you not read the thread at all and notice that i post in there pretty often?

What does it change if you were there?

dude, a mod MADE that thread, Mods dont typically ban other mods or lock their threads.

It's because it shouldn't have been made in the first place, none of the mods even said one of the other ones were out of line, because they only feel comfortable with members of low post counts.

i like dguy, i post a lot with him on the lucario boards. He's a cool guy. Usually i hate yuna, just because yuna is such an ***. Does that mean that i hate yuna's style? Yeah, does that mean i hate yuna's argument? No. I dislike Jeter, but i still respect him for how he plays.

If someone doesn't get banned for being an ***, what do they get banned for?

i have no grounds to say that somebody is right?

So the criteria is "arguments determine who's right". I see yuna arguing a lot and it's typically yuna winning from what i can gather. So that's why i judged yuna to be "usually" right.

Honestly, I rarely if ever see Yuna as right. People compliment eachother and say "this guy" is right," becuase the person shares the same opinion as them. Which is why they arn't worth anything.

1. agree
2. because you don't like yuna's style? Prove yuna wrong then and take a victory lap
3. Why is that relevant to the "right decision"?

I don't like Yuna because he argues with people and insults everything people say and treats them like idiots. He thinks he can hold an arguement and the people he disagrees with can't. He won't function like a normal person in arguements, he insults what people say instead of simply proving it wrong, he makes everything an unneeded hastle for everyone he disagrees with. A person like that who can't argue normally doesn't need to be on Smash Boards. Look at his signature, he says people who can't argue should leave Smash Boards, when he's a prime example of what he says. Everyone he argues with wants him to follow his own advice, because by looking at the way he argued with Patsie on the "Infinites: Why Exactly are they allowed?" thread. The way he acts is a great example of how not to hold a discussion. I don't take part in Ness arguements because I barely know anything about Ness, so I avoid it. Telling me to argue with Yuna wouldn't prove anything.

Because if you can prove me wrong, then I would be wrong. Making it a valid decision.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Have you seen the posts Yuna makes? They're worse than that. Plus he doesn't just flat out insult him, he adressed everything he said.


Neither did dguy. Yuna has gone through posts, quoted people and replaced everything they said with "bunch of BS" and other things worse than what dguy did.

no, plus yuna probably has some of the longer posts in this thread because yuna did so many quotes.
Read the thread and you'd know it's "stuff", which is far less offensive than BS >_>

Sounds like dguy and Simna, with dguy being in Yuna's position.

who's in simnas?

Yuna's posts are flooded with unneeded insults, he doesn't know how to discuss anything normally. Exactly, having dguy banned before Yuna was an obvious flaw. Something's wrong.

THEN PROVE YUNA WRONG

same stuff as the first part

The only time I've ever seen that happen was when it would get him out of a situation where people would make fun of what he said. Which the one I remember went something around the line of Yuna telling someone that he meant to type "I hate it when people color their posts" rather than "I hate people who color their posts."

THEN PROVE YUNA WRONG. Dont argue why yuna should be wrong. Argue why yuna IS wrong.

I'll edit this post as I get done.

write first, then post

 

[Veggi]

no, plus yuna probably has some of the longer posts in this thread because yuna did so many quotes.
Read the thread and you'd know it's "stuff", which is far less offensive than BS >_>

Read more threads, quotes were frequently replaced with BS, or the like.

who's in simnas?

Depends on the thread.

THEN PROVE YUNA WRONG

If the person arguing with Yuna has the potential to him wrong, he will be proved wrong. Offending the opposing user shouldn't be tolerated.

THEN PROVE YUNA WRONG. Dont argue why yuna should be wrong. Argue why yuna IS wrong.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

write first, then post

I want people to know I'm still typing, having to type responces for tons of people takes a long time.

 

[Brinzy]

betterthanbonds put up pretty much all I had to say. Though I will say that the part that didn't seem to fit in to you probably doesn't belong here. It was an incomplete thought and it's probably not worth completing. Anyway:


For the most part, people do come across as hostile when they completely push aside the things that others say. This, however, is not without any prior provocation. If someone throws in their mindless opinion which reflects the opinions of half of the posters before said person in a thread, chances are they won't be received well. I could see if someone posted a well made argument and someone just flat out wrote them off as an idiot - that would be unfair. However, when there are pages upon pages of posts and someone just comes in with the same thing that's been refuted ad naseum, people start to become annoyed, and rightfully so. If someone does not want to take the time to read and see if someone hasn't already made their argument, then they shouldn't post anything at all.

If I were to form an opinion... such as, "Tires don exits and here is why" after a thousand people prior posted in a thread, don't you think I'd be insulted? I understand that it's best to remain open, but if I neglect things that are already there, that doesn't really excuse me anymore than the person who could insult me in return.

For the most part, that is how it is. Posts that seem offensive do not come out of thin air. There is a basis for this to happen. If we must take down those who come across as "offensive", then we must also go after those who play the ignorance card. At least, this is my opinion.

 

[Criosphinx]

This argument... kinda sucks. Way boring.

 

[Levitas]

Considering that a good portion of this thread doesn't actually address the topic, I'm wondering where Yuna and Successor believe the kids belong.

Fun fact: English is my third language, yet I'm able to understand plain English.

I don't know what justifies a personal attack, but then again I'm some ******** monkey who can only fully comprehend one language. Also I suck major balls at anything related to smash and/or making a coherent argument. So when I point this out as a completely unnecessary personal attack, I'm probably wrong, and every word that Yuna posted in response to my post was filled with A+ level insight.

 

[Veggi]

betterthanbonds put up pretty much all I had to say. Though I will say that the part that didn't seem to fit in to you probably doesn't belong here. It was an incomplete thought and it's probably not worth completing. Anyway:


For the most part, people do come across as hostile when they completely push aside the things that others say. This, however, is not without any prior provocation. If someone throws in their mindless opinion which reflects the opinions of half of the posters before said person in a thread, chances are they won't be received well. I could see if someone posted a well made argument and someone just flat out wrote them off as an idiot - that would be unfair. However, when there are pages upon pages of posts and someone just comes in with the same thing that's been refuted ad naseum, people start to become annoyed, and rightfully so. If someone does not want to take the time to read and see if someone hasn't already made their argument, then they shouldn't post anything at all.

If I were to form an opinion... such as, "Tires don exits and here is why" after a thousand people prior posted in a thread, don't you think I'd be insulted? I understand that it's best to remain open, but if I neglect things that are already there, that doesn't really excuse me anymore than the person who could insult me in return.

For the most part, that is how it is. Posts that seem offensive do not come out of thin air. There is a basis for this to happen. If we must take down those who come across as "offensive", then we must also go after those who play the ignorance card. At least, this is my opinion.

I would normally agree, well sort of. I would agree that someone should read the thread before posting, that way not to repeat a discussion, although it's possible that repeating an already done discussion could have it's benefits. However I disagree that someone should be yelled at or made fun of for doing it. If they were to learn a lesson, reminding them would be more beneficial in the long run, rather than just making them depressed. Although there isn't a way I can confirm that.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175364&

This is the thread I was referring to.

Regardless on someone's stand point on the subject, it was a perfectly fine discussion with someone who was at first calm, then it turned into people yelling at eachother because Yuna can't handle himself around other people like the rest of us non-provoking people can. This might contradict what I said earlier about taking sides, but alot of the things he said wern't even counters. They were just offensive statements, it's best if you read more than a couple pages into the thread, although I can understand why someone wouldn't want to. I can't understand how I can recieve an infraction for posting a message shorter than my signature, but other people can do the most ridiculous things and get away with it when no one else can, simply because they are well known.

Thanks for handling discussions maturely.

As I see it now, the right decision to...

1.) Apologize to dguy.

2.) Ban Yuna.

3.) Prove me wrong.

I'm going to add a 4...

4.) Wait for me to prove myself wrong.

Simna isn't the same as every other mod, so although he's a bad mod, he only banned dguy because he didn't like him. Therefore assuming it was only his problem that got dguy banned, it actually doesn't matter how bad Yuna is because dguy didn't get banned for a valid reason. I should have thought of this earlier. dguy still needs an apology though.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I'm sorry if this was already stated, but Dguy had his ban removed when the issue was brought to the attention of an Admin.

 

[Veggi]

I'm sorry if this was already stated, but Dguy had his ban removed when the issue was brought to the attention of an Admin.

Actually I didn't know that. I was thinking it just passed a week or something.