Where would Ness and Lucas rank on Tier Lists if it wasn't for their infinites?

[Yuna]

Wait, going through your post showed me I didn't make a mistake at all. So the guaranteed PKT2 combo you're touting isn't Praying? Then ignore praying. You, however, talked a lot as if the opponent didn't have familiarity with the matchup.

And here's what you said:

And that's not even counting the psychological consequences of being hit by it once, such as a tendency to shield too much when pk thunder is being used (a tendency that is easily exploited).

Experienced players will know when to shield and when not.

An overzealous opponent will often find himself falling into the tail (which means it's over) and if you've landed pk thunder 2 before being hit off the stage (which is fairly likely) then the opponent often hesitates to jump off after you in the first place. Of course, you don't need to rely on this because Ness can recover from a wide variety of angles (with the proper precision) and his aerials offer plenty of protection; however, the hesitation is nevertheless a phenomenon you will observe.

Or not. Or the opponent to could know how to fight Ness and how to not get hit into PKT2. And they could know when one should jump off the stage to edgeguard Ness and how to do it (yes, not all characters can do this, but you don't do it with characters which cannot).

PKT2 is not reliable at all. It's highly situational to combo into, it's friggin' slow if you don't combo into it and on whiff, you're wide open).

 

[ColinJF]

In the same part you quoted, I said this:

Of course, you don't need to rely on this

My description of using pk thunder in the air is different from when you are recovering. Yes, no one familiar with the match up is going to be hit by your recovery, which is why I said "you don't need to rely on this".

This little mini-essay is referring to when you are ON THE STAGE and the opponent is also ON THE STAGE:

Basically, you hit the opponent into the air, entice them into using their second jump, and then you jump near them and use pk thunder. Now they have a few options. If they do nothing they fall into the tail and it's over. What they want to do is air dodge, but it's not that simple because you can change the angle pk thunder 2 will go dramatically in a fraction of a second. After hitting Ness with pk thunder, he moves so fast that it cannot be air dodged on reaction. That means you need to look at when pk thunder is going to hit him to do your air dodge. But get this: the direction Ness goes isn't based on the direction pk thunder is moving, it's based on where it hits Ness on his body. That means you can effectively make it look as if you are going to shoot it at one angle (requiring one air dodge timing) and then shoot at a slightly different angle (requiring a different air dodge timing). Basically, the opponent is forced to guess the air dodge timing. If they guess wrong, they are dead... if they guess right, Ness is safe because you won't be in any position to punish him. This guessing game is in Ness's favour.

Now if you are having a hard time picturing this, it's probably because -- as I said -- you have not played a competent Ness. Unlike the earlier poster, I am not talking about hoping the opponent messes up, I am talking about forcing them to guess an air dodge timing (or else fall into the tail and die for sure). This is NOT a novelty and it works on a regular basis.

Just clearing that up. Also, I disagree that it's highly situational... it happens about once per match, unless are you playing characters with a reliable defence to it.

 

[Deleted member]

This has absolutely zero bearing on the fact that Ness' Dair does not kill good players at 0% or any of the things I've said so far in this thread.

stop dodging the question.

if you are off the stage and you are hit by the dair you will die from it because the ness player will just edge hog you if you meteor cancel it. this is where i said the grab release comes in, they grab you, let you break out of it and then you fall of the stage, they follow you and spike you.

I claimed this when? Your reading comprehension needs some serious work.

You have to be idiot to constantly get hit by PKT2.

If you're a moron, yes. It'd take Ness hitting from almost point-blank range and/or you Smash DI:ing and airdodging into him.

No matter how good the Ness player is, his Dair will still be sluggish and because of this be easy to see coming (so we can Meteor Cancel it). It will still have mediocre reach.

all your examples are from a person that has never played a decent ness in his entire life. that means all your logic is coming from your thoughts on how ness is played, while you have no idea what ness can do.

ness players only have a few moves they have to master, that would be the PKT2, dair, pk fire set ups, and jab locking. After practicing these techniques for hours upon hours i'm pretty sure they would adapt to the situation at hand and find a way to connect with these techniques.

 

[ColinJF]

ness players only have a few moves they have to master, that would be the PKT2, dair, pk fire set ups, and jab locking.

This is a bit silly. All of Ness's moves are good (except pk flash, heh).

And the main use of the down air is as an approach, not as a spike. Pk fire is good, but not the way you are describing it... you want to hit them at odd angles with it so it's hard to DI out of it before you get a hit in (if not impossible). Like on their head, rather than at their feet.

Also I never use jab locking. It's not actually very good anyway.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

I forgot to refute that portion for some reason. Here it is:

Basically, you hit the opponent into the air, entice them into using their second jump, and then you jump near them and use pk thunder.

Reliable? People often fall for this, somehow getting "enticed" into wasting their 2nd jump for no good reason and then, somehow, get hit by PK Thunder, which is slow?

Now they have a few options. If they do nothing they fall into the tail and it's over.

Or they could, you know, not fall into the tail. Since when is the Tail an auto-hit or something? Also, it requires a bit of damage to actually do anything.

What they want to do is air dodge, but it's not that simple because you can change the angle pk thunder 2 will go dramatically in a fraction of a second.

Yes, but if Ness is off the stage as well, he only has so many options without dying himself. Also, PK Thunder 2 is slow as hell on startup since you have to actually finish up PKT1 first.

After hitting Ness with pk thunder, he moves so fast that it cannot be air dodged on reaction.

Yes it can. You react by looking at PK1 and seeing when it hits Ness and then airdodge it. You react to the buildup to PKT2, not the PKT2 itself.

That means you need to look at when pk thunder is going to hit him to do your air dodge.

Yes. And this is hard?

But get this: the direction Ness goes isn't based on the direction pk thunder is moving, it's based on where it hits Ness on his body.

People who are familiar with the matchup will know how Ness flies from PKT2 based on how PKT1 hits him. They'll know when to and when not to jump off to hit if (if they'll have enough time), they'll know how to not die from PKT2 if they whiff their punisher.

That means you can effectively make it look as if you are going to shoot it at one angle (requiring one air dodge timing) and then shoot at a slightly different angle (requiring a different air dodge timing).

You do not float in the air when you air dodge, you fall. And unless you're both way above the edge, you cannot kill someone for a faulty airdodge since they'll fly below it, thus killing Ness if he goes for them. Also, airdodges have quite a few invincibility frames. A few frames worth of mistiming does not a PKT2 hit make.

I watch PKT1 and wait 'til it's just about to hit Ness before I airdodge. Even if Ness "mindgames" me and siwtches angles (and timing) by, what, 5 frames, that won't matter since I'll still be invincible.

Basically, the opponent is forced to guess the air dodge timing. If they guess wrong, they are dead... if they guess right, Ness is safe because you won't be in any position to punish him. This guessing game is in Ness's favour.

It's a guessing game in Ness' favour if they put themselves in that stupid position to begin with. PKT2 is not a reliable edgeguard. You cannot hit someone off the stage and then PKT2 them easily. So it's only a "defensive offensive"-maneuvre and even then it only works when the opponent misjudges when he can jump off and whack Ness and then guesses the timing for the airdodge cataclysmically wrong.

PKT2 is not a reliable KO move.

This is NOT a novelty and it works on a regular basis.

Against idiots.

 

[Deleted member]

This is a bit silly. All of Ness's moves are good (except pk flash, heh).

And the main use of the down air is as an approach, not as a spike. Pk fire is good, but not the way you are describing it... you want to hit them at odd angles with them so it's hard to DI out of it before you get a hit in (if not impossible). Like on their head, rather than at their feet.

never said ness's moves werent good, i just said that those are the only moves you have to spend time mastering. its not hard to use the bair and fair (ness's more important moves) effectively.

all the ness's i've played **** you with the dair, they also use the auto landed dair but that's beside the point. not using the dair to spike is gimping ness's edge guarding game like none other.

the PK fire is amazing, it sets ness up for a lot of his combos and is a great way to stop your opponent's approach. so it really is that good

 

[ColinJF]

Yuna, you seem to be operating under the confused idea that this is taking place over the edge. It isn't. As I said, "This little mini-essay is referring to when you are ON THE STAGE and the opponent is also ON THE STAGE". I can sympathise though. This is difficult to picture if you never played against a competent Ness.

Also, pk thunder 2 actually does work as a sort of false edge guard. If you are on the stage and the opponent is off the stage, you can lead out the tail to block off the ledge so that they have to recover above you, and then you hit pk thunder back into yourself and into them. However, that is NOT what I was talking about above.

And I already dealt with your "idiot" thing. I don't live some amazing smash region like Virgina, but I have been to the only notable Brawl tournaments that have taken place here, and I go to local smashfests, and these tactics work against everybody I have ever played in person, both in tournament and friendlies (and don't bother saying friendlies don't matter; of course they don't, but if it takes an IDIOT to be hit by this stuff regularly then it shouldn't be happening at smashfests with people I have played before, should it?). As I said, I don't live in Virgina or Maryland, but unless everybody here is an idiot (I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada), these tactics are reliable.

 

[Yuna]

stop dodging the question.

Yes, obviously my bullet proof case against you falls on this very irrelevant point. Start bringing valid arguments and then I'll answer your irrelevant question.

if you are off the stage and you are hit by the dair you will die from it because the ness player will just edge hog you if you meteor cancel it.

At 0%, you can make it back with your 2nd jump as most characters. At 0%, it's almost impossible to edgehog anyone if they Up B Meteor Cancel with the correct timing. With both intact, no, you will not die from the Dair.

For this to work, Ness would also have to somehow hit the opponent with a Dair at 0% while right above the edge so he'll have enough time to get out of the cooldown animation and grab the ledge before the opponent can Meteor Cancel.

this is where i said the grab release comes in, they grab you, let you break out of it and then you fall of the stage, they follow you and spike you.

This is where the part of "What about 2nd jumping and Up B:ing?" comes in and bites you in the tuchas.

all your examples are from a person that has never played a decent ness in his entire life. that means all your logic is coming from your thoughts on how ness is played, while you have no idea what ness can do.

All your examples are BS and lies.

What happened to "Getting hit by Ness' Dair is an (almost) guaranteed KO at 0% (or close to thereof) on Battlefield, Smashville and Lylat Cruise!", something you passionately argued just a while ago? It seems you have a penchant for throwing out outrangeous claims and then acting like you never said them whenever called on it and then throwing out yet more outrangeous claims.

ness players only have a few moves they have to master, that would be the PKT2, dair, pk fire set ups, and jab locking. After practicing these techniques for hours upon hours i'm pretty sure they would adapt to the situation at hand and find a way to connect with these techniques.

PK fire does not guarantee a grab or another PK fire, no matter how much you try to twist and turn it.

I never claimed this and that never connects. I'm challenging the notion that PKT2 is a reliable KO move. I'm also challenging other BS statements like "Ness' Dair kills at 0%!".

You can master Ness' Dair as much as you want. It still won't kill anyone good at 0%.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, you seem to be operating under the confused idea that this is taking place over the edge. It isn't. As I said, "This little mini-essay is referring to when you are ON THE STAGE and the opponent is also ON THE STAGE". I can sympathise though. This is difficult to picture if you never played against a competent Ness.

Why the hell would anyone frequently get hit by PKT2 on the stage?! This game barely has hitstun. If you're in the air and you think Ness is gonna PKT2 you, you fastfall and try to shield it. Or you DI away and fastfall and try to shield it. Or you just time the friggin' airdodge since it's not really that hard.

How often are you going to find the opponent at the right distance, angle and percentage to kill them with PKT2, anyway? It requires them to first be at the correct % to actually die from it, then it requires them to be above you (somehow) and at the right distance and then you have to to somehow hit them with PKT2. That's a lot of situationality.

No, it's not so easy just anyone can do it. But we're operating under the assumption that both players are good here.

Also, pk thunder 2 actually does work as a sort of false edge guard. If you are on the stage and the opponent is off the stage, you can lead out the tail to block off the ledge so that they have to recover above you, and then you hit pk thunder back into yourself and into them.

If they're somehow recovering above you and the stage (so when you PKT2 them, you don't fall off to your death) and they mistime their airdodge for the very obvious PKT2.

And I already dealt with your "idiot" thing. I don't live some amazing smash region like Virgina, but I have been to the only notable Brawl tournaments that have taken place here, and I go to local smashfests, and these tactics work against everybody I have ever played in person, both in tournament and friendlies (and don't bother saying friendlies don't matter; of course they don't, but if it takes an IDIOT to be hit by this stuff regularly then it shouldn't be happening at smashfests with people I have played before, should it?). As I said, I don't live in Virgina or Maryland, but unless everybody here is an idiot (I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada), these tactics are reliable.

They're reliable because you can frequently pull it off against select other people? Come back to me when you an do it against people who frequently place high in tournaments.

I don't care if you can do it against people who place 16th or whatever at local Smashfests. Come back to me when you can do it to Canadians who frequently place Top 8 at high level tournaments.

If you're really good, you'll know each matchup inside and out. You'll know what options Ness has to hit people with PKT2 and you will try to avoid that at all costs. You will nail that timing down to just a few frames, you will know how when to and when not to shield, you will know when to and when not to jump off and whack Ness, you will know what to do if Ness hits you with PKT1 and then angles it back for PKT2.

all the ness's i've played **** you with the dair, they also use the auto landed dair but that's beside the point. not using the dair to spike is gimping ness's edge guarding game like none other.

You mean they **** you.

the PK fire is amazing, it sets ness up for a lot of his combos and is a great way to stop your opponent's approach. so it really is that good

Meet my friends Perfect Shielding, Spotdodging and Rolling. PK Fire is not instant.

 

[Deleted member]

yuna ill shut up when you show me proof that you actually know what you're talking about.

all you have to do is give me the name of that ness player and proof that he is actually good at playing ness.

i'll wait for one more response for that information, if you don't post it, i'm done with this thread because you're just going to keep being stubborn.

 

[ColinJF]

They're reliable because you can frequently pull it off against select other people? Come back to me when you an do it against people who frequently place high in tournaments.

I don't care if you can do it against people who place 16th or whatever at local Smashfests. Come back to me when you can do it to Canadians who frequently place Top 8 at high level tournaments.

If you're really good, you'll know each matchup inside and out. You'll know what options Ness has to hit people with PKT2 and you will try to avoid that at all costs. You will nail that timing down to just a few frames, you will know how when to and when not to shield, you will know when to and when not to jump off and whack Ness, you will know what to do if Ness hits you with PKT1 and then angles it back for PKT2.

So now they have to be "really good"?

I thought you said above that it was only reliable "against idiots". All I am establishing is that I regularly play people who are not IDIOTS and these tactics work. Are they particularly good Brawl players? Perhaps not. But they aren't IDIOTS. Let's look at what you said directly:

This is NOT a novelty and it works on a regular basis.

Against idiots.

If you want to claim that these things don't work against really good players that I have not had the fortunate of playing then you can claim that and I won't be able to refute it from experience (though I would believe you are wrong). However, you cannot claim pk thunder 2 is only a reliable kill move against IDIOTS because I CAN refute that from experience, unless you have some strange definition of "idiot" that includes a whole province

 

[Yuna]

yuna ill shut up when you show me proof that you actually know what you're talking about.

all you have to do is give me the name of that ness player and proof that he is actually good at playing ness.

i'll wait for one more response for that information, if you don't post it, i'm done with this thread because you're just going to keep being stubborn.

Why should I have to prove I've played some kind of genius Ness player when you've only spouted off nonsense about what Ness can do? Your claims have no basis whatsoever.

Ness' Dair does not kill at 0%, Ness' PK Fire does not guarantee another PK Fire or a grab, etc., etc., etc. It doesn't matter if you're playing the best Ness in the world, Ness' PK Fire and Dair won't magically change. They will in no way randomly work differently than before. You will not kill someone at 0% with the Dair, even on BF, LC and SV. You wíll not be guaranteed a grab or another PK Fire off a PK Fire.

No matter how good the Ness player, Ness' potential remains constant.

 

[swordgard]

Ok im gonna say this once only, every spike in brawl is a meteor which can be meteor canceled, except if someone doesnt have their second jump AND has yoshi, both ice climbers(cause unlike what yuna mentionned, you cant upb with ics out of a meteor because they are in a tumbling state, which makes nana and you upb at same time without activating it properly, they just fall to their death) or only popo.

In other words, dair is not a reliable ko move, most people will spam upb cause its pretty foreseeable.

I agree with yuna on everything he says, even if he did not know the matchup or anything, attacks dont change during matches. Usually, good characters on paper can be good or bad in practical due to some imperfections, but a bad character on paper stays bad because it's inherent weaknesses cant be compensated as easely as good characters.

Edit:Doesnt this topic feel just like yoshi players arguing yoshi has an advantage over metaknight while he obviously gets ***** by him?

 

[ColinJF]

The things ArkiveZero is listing are a bit wrong, but Ness is really good.

As for the specific things he has been mentioning:

He mentions pk fire. Pk fire is good when you hit their head with it, not their feet. If you hit their feet it's benign, but if you hit their head, you can usually get a free hit.

He mentions the down air. The down air is a really really good move, but not as a spike. It's an approach.

He mentions pk thunder and it really does rule, both pk thunder 1 and 2.

So yeah, ArkiveZero did post some things that are wrong, but that doesn't mean Ness is bad. Ness doesn't look bad on paper and he has plenty of tactics that actually do work (not exactly the things ArkiveZero has been listing).

If I had to list the things that are best about Ness I would say pk thunder, the down air, the forward air, his dash grab, and all of his throws.

 

[Darkwashu]

Coming from a Ness and Lucas mainer,Lucas has the better PK fire,Ness' can be easily escaped from,while Lucas' with an approaching short hop is a great approach for me.

No,PK thunder does not rule,they need to get PK teleport,PK thunder is easily punished because even though Ness' goes fast,dodge roll past it,once that happens Ness will be forced to ram PK thunder into the ground so Ness isnt helpless.
Lucas is OK,when they are right next to eachother,I can get 14% if I make PK thunder do an arc from teh top of lucas in the ground on the right of him.
Its a predictable recovery though,I cant count how many times I've been punished by it.
Ness' spike only works for me when they are in the like 70% range...

tl;dr version,Ness has bad PK fire,Lucas has average
Ness has a bad PK thunder,offensive and recovery,Lucas is an average offensive,but is very situation.
Ness has teh bad spike.

 

[ColinJF]

You obviously don't play Ness well if you think that Ness "has a bad pk thunder". Pk thunder is Ness's best move, and it's a hell of a lot better than Lucas's sorry excuse for pk thunder.

Also Ness's down air is just so incredible, but not as a spike.

 

[Darkwashu]

You obviously don't play Ness well if you think that Ness "has a bad pk thunder". Pk thunder is Ness's best move, and it's a hell of a lot better than Lucas's sorry excuse for pk thunder.

Also Ness's down air is just so incredible, but not as a spike.

No,it is bad.
Its easily punishable.
If its his best move,what about his amazing throws,aerials,hell even his upsmash yo-yo is better.
How is Lucas's a sorry excuse?
It moves tighter so he doesnt fall enough when hes recovering.

I've only gotten the spike done 3-5 times in brawl where it killed,its slow,not much range,and pales in comparison of other spikes such as Falcos,and Ganondorfs.

 

[swordgard]

Btw, anyone care to explain difference between pkthunder1 and 2?

 

[MarKO X]

I'm guessing PKT1 is the projectile itself. PKT2 is when the projectile hits Ness/Lucas and electrifies them onto the stage, or to the side of the stage, depending on how bad the recover attempt was.

And seriously, PKT1 and PKT2 are not incredible moves like that. If you are actually hitting people with this stuff on a regular basis, you need to get new opponents on the double. Last I checked, the aerials are where its at with the Mother ****ers, but I don't play as them so I don't know much. But PKT is just not a reliable attack in any sense.

Ness's spike is about as good as any other spike... which is not so much because, well this is Brawl. (obviously there are exception, please don't flame me.)

 

[Nestec]

Coming from a Ness and Lucas mainer,Lucas has the better PK fire,Ness' can be easily escaped from,while Lucas' with an approaching short hop is a great approach for me.

No,PK thunder does not rule,they need to get PK teleport,PK thunder is easily punished because even though Ness' goes fast,dodge roll past it,once that happens Ness will be forced to ram PK thunder into the ground so Ness isnt helpless.
Lucas is OK,when they are right next to eachother,I can get 14% if I make PK thunder do an arc from teh top of lucas in the ground on the right of him.
Its a predictable recovery though,I cant count how many times I've been punished by it.
Ness' spike only works for me when they are in the like 70% range...

tl;dr version,Ness has bad PK fire,Lucas has average
Ness has a bad PK thunder,offensive and recovery,Lucas is an average offensive,but is very situation.
Ness has teh bad spike.

Lucas' PKF is better for defensive playing styles because it spaces and distances Lucas from the enemy. Ness' is better at building up damage and for approaching, because of lag-cancelled PK Jump. However, both can be dodged pretty easily, I'll admit. But I don't believe Lucas has the better one.

I don't know much about Lucas' PKT mindgames (I believe they're the same as Ness'?), but Ness PK thunder is not bad. On ground, it is not so easily dodged. Roll forward, you are hit by the tail, and stunned. Therefore, Ness can then bring the head back and hit you with it. Roll backwards, you are hit anyway. Spotdodge? See "roll forward". Jumping is not a good escape either, Ness will chase you. Shielding is all that's left, and IIRC, PKT can sheild-poke through the top or something.

Lol, PKT2 is being very underestimated. The tail is long; if you are caught in it while both chars are midair, you will almost always be hit by PKT2, depending on the positioning. You can rarely airdodge a good Ness' PKT also.


But anyway, my two cents? I'm thinking Middle Tier/Upper Middle for Ness. I think the problem lies in the fact that not enough people are winning with Ness in tournaments. Due to the way tiers are made, Ness won't be going very high until his tourney results shape up.

But in terms of actual character ability, Ness scores pretty high, IMO. He's a very deadly character, with quick, damage-racking attacks, high-priority aerials, disjointed attacks, quite early kills with Bthrow and PKT2, and he's a small target. Solid ground game with short-hopped, lag-cancelled aerials, and a pretty good dashgrab to top it off. Decent edgeguard game with disjointed Fair and maybe Nair. And let's not forget a pretty nice-sized collection of mindgame possibilities with PKT. Oh yeah, lol, and a projectile-absorber.

Cons? Eh, pretty light weight, I believe. Grab-release vulnerabilities. Anything else? ^__^

 

[Zaim2]

No,it is bad.
I've only gotten the spike done 3-5 times in brawl where it killed,its slow,not much range,and pales in comparison of other spikes such as Falcos,and Ganondorfs.

Seeing as it's 2nd most powerful spike in the game after Ganondorf, has the longest after-spike-hitstun (7 stage builder squares before it wears off) and a huge disjointed hitbox, I fail to see how it "pales in comparison" to other spikes. "Slow" and "not much range"? You must be thinking of Melee Ness or something, because you're not even close.

And some of you guys are really underestimating the speed of Ness' PKT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KLpA6FENIA

This isn't the best match, but you should general idea about how PKT/PKT2 are used by a competent Ness player.

 

[DMG]

I don't really care how good/bad PKT2 is, but I'm pretty sure Lucas will be higher on tier lists than Ness.

 

[Mmac]

And some of you guys are really underestimating the speed of Ness' PKT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KLpA6FENIA

This isn't the best match, but you should general idea about how PKT/PKT2 are used by a competent Ness player.

I'm sorry, but that guy who was playing Snake completely sucked at Shielding/Dodging.

I agree with Yuma and the others, PKT2 as a Attack is just pointless. First of all, it's the easiest attack to see coming. If he directs it backwards, then he is obviously going to use it on himself. 2nd of all, It's extremely easy to punish. On the ground has horrendous afterlag, and in the air, he goes into helpless. It just doesn't work

 

[Nestec]

Lmao at that fight. I can't believe how Hostility practically walked right into PKT2 so many times though.

Hmm, I hate how laggy PKF is while used on the ground though...

EDIT: @ Mmac

It may be easy to see coming, but it most situations in which it kills, there is practically nothing to be done about it. Catching/Stunning opponent in PKT tail -> PKT2 is quite a sight, and can happen easily.

I agree it can be easily punished if it misses. But isn't that the same with most good KO moves? Miss it and you'll be punished?

 

[Levitas]

Ness's PKF is really bad. Most characters can punish you while you're lagging even if they get hit. SDI.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Lucas is a horrible, awful, terrible character even if you ignore the grab release.

 

[Luigi player]

I think they both should be about mid-mid. Maybe high-mid somehow. They're really good

 

[Tyser]

Low .

 

[Darkwashu]

Lucas' PKF is better for defensive playing styles because it spaces and distances Lucas from the enemy. Ness' is better at building up damage and for approaching, because of lag-cancelled PK Jump. However, both can be dodged pretty easily, I'll admit. But I don't believe Lucas has the better one.

I don't know much about Lucas' PKT mindgames (I believe they're the same as Ness'?), but Ness PK thunder is not bad. On ground, it is not so easily dodged. Roll forward, you are hit by the tail, and stunned. Therefore, Ness can then bring the head back and hit you with it. Roll backwards, you are hit anyway. Spotdodge? See "roll forward". Jumping is not a good escape either, Ness will chase you. Shielding is all that's left, and IIRC, PKT can sheild-poke through the top or something.

Lol, PKT2 is being very underestimated. The tail is long; if you are caught in it while both chars are midair, you will almost always be hit by PKT2, depending on the positioning. You can rarely airdodge a good Ness' PKT also.


But anyway, my two cents? I'm thinking Middle Tier/Upper Middle for Ness. I think the problem lies in the fact that not enough people are winning with Ness in tournaments. Due to the way tiers are made, Ness won't be going very high until his tourney results shape up.

But in terms of actual character ability, Ness scores pretty high, IMO. He's a very deadly character, with quick, damage-racking attacks, high-priority aerials, disjointed attacks, quite early kills with Bthrow and PKT2, and he's a small target. Solid ground game with short-hopped, lag-cancelled aerials, and a pretty good dashgrab to top it off. Decent edgeguard game with disjointed Fair and maybe Nair. And let's not forget a pretty nice-sized collection of mindgame possibilities with PKT. Oh yeah, lol, and a projectile-absorber.

Cons? Eh, pretty light weight, I believe. Grab-release vulnerabilities. Anything else? ^__^

Imo,Lucas' is defensive,and defense is more important than offense.

Lucas' PK thunder is better for recovering,Because it turns tighter so he doesnt fall as much while hes using it.
*Was wrong about PKT*
Still,mindgames only can get you so far.

______
Ness'/Lucas' flaw is a predictable recovery,even though Lucas can use Zap Jump,and Magnet Pull.

Seeing as it's 2nd most powerful spike in the game after Ganondorf, has the longest after-spike-hitstun (7 stage builder squares before it wears off) and a huge disjointed hitbox, I fail to see how it "pales in comparison" to other spikes. "Slow" and "not much range"? You must be thinking of Melee Ness or something, because you're not even close.

And some of you guys are really underestimating the speed of Ness' PKT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KLpA6FENIA

This isn't the best match, but you should general idea about how PKT/PKT2 are used by a competent Ness player.

Its slow,the hitbox is just..odd.
I've only gotten it done because I pk fired while they where off the stage,and they just where in the callom of fire,and I used it,it was awesome when I did it XP

Wow,that Snake SUCKED.
He rolled into PKT2,and just stood standing still another time. <__<

 

[BBQ°]

I think Ness and Lucas would go in mid-middle tier if they didn't get grab released. Even now with the grab-release I still think they are around the same spot.

 

[cutter]

I'll reiterate once again:

PKT2 is an awful attack.

Why? It's telegraphed, too easily airdodged, too easily shielded, too easy to avoid, and too easily punished. Sure, you might be able to hit with it against people who are basically brain dead, but against any competent player, it's a god awful move. Why some Ness/Lucas mains try to implement it into competitive play, I'll never know.

Ness's Dair is also telegraphed. To make matters worse, its hitbox is small.

 

[rathy Aro]

This is the second time in 2 days I've seen this same argument except last time it was with (possibly) the best melee ness who also happens to be a moderator (yeah... that ended in a ban...). Can we just squash the argument and PUT UP A VIDEO OF A SUCCESSFUL PKT2? or does every "good" ness not have any video equipment?

 

[Noraa]

Im a good lukiss player =/

 

[YagamiLight]

Can we just squash the argument and PUT UP A VIDEO OF A SUCCESSFUL PKT2? or does every "good" ness not have any video equipment?

It's against a terrible Falco, but here's a video of Colin (The very same Colin from this topic) managing the PKT2 tail combo (And hitting with PKT2 even without the tail):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PT7OLChva4

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

This is the second time in 2 days I've seen this same argument except last time it was with (possibly) the best melee ness who also happens to be a moderator (yeah... that ended in a ban...). Can we just squash the argument and PUT UP A VIDEO OF A SUCCESSFUL PKT2? or does every "good" ness not have any video equipment?

Ah, just let the Ness players have their delusions. Lord knows they need them.

 

[Azzizaz]

It's against a terrible Falco, but here's a video of Colin (The very same Colin from this topic) managing the PKT2 tail combo (And hitting with PKT2 even without the tail):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PT7OLChva4

That may have been the worst Falco player I've seen ever. Maybe one of those would have been unavoidable, but that player was just plain stupid.

 

[ColinJF]

Light shouldn't have posted that. It's fairly entertaining, but it isn't really relevant to this topic... Just read my posts, you don't need a video.

Though if you really want a video you could watch Simna v. Hostility or something (here), but no videos are going to convince anybody who hasn't experienced the fear themselves since you will just say "well he should have done X, Y, and Z instead". The type of stuff working in Simna v. Hostility is quite typical. As in, it's just the type of ordinary match you would expect from playing Ness... not something extremely special. The Snake player would probably be insulted to be described as "idiot" as some of the people in this topic have suggested. There aren't many matches on youtube featuring good Ness players in Brawl yet (but that is one of them).

I will say again though that if you don't think pk thunder / pk thunder 2 are key to playing Ness you are either playing bad Nesses or you play a character who can consistently defend against pk thunder (and there are only a few, like Mr. Game & Watch; some of the best characters, like King Dedede, are extremely vulnerable).

 

[Excellence]

I believe that Ness and Lucas would become more popular, thus moving up on the Tier List to about Mid-Mid Tier. I'm sure the paranoia of being chaingrabbed or release grabbed into a smash attack keeps a lot of potentially talented Ness and/or Lucas mains from actually using them.

Then again, only Charizard and Marth can infinity them, and Marth isn't really doing an infinity he's chaingrabbing. Charizard, Ness nor Lucas has any trouble beating on a regular. Marth is hard for either of the two, so the grab is just a bonus and is still going to result in a bad matchup, with or without the grab releases.

If Ness and Lucas didn't have such an easily gimped recovery, I believe they'd truely shine. Maybe they should've reduced the damage, hitstun, and knockback on the PKT2 to increase the speed the lightning bolt can travel.

 

[Greenstreet]

most boundboys keep there distance and learn to work against gettin grabbed

 

[MarKO X]

i watched the vid of hostility vs. simna. it's great and all, with the pkt2s and whatnot, but at the same time, 1) hostility won the next 2 matches (even tho him using snake and the stages mighta had something to do with it), and 2) simna is like, the greatest ness player ever or something like that, and it's beyond his ness, it's his mind games, which is something he did well.

With the given vid, I can admit this: with the proper mind games, pkt1 and pkt2 can be effective. At the same time, so can Sonic's SpinDash and SpinCharge.