What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?

Darches

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falcon isn't nearly as strong as DK or bowser
HAHAHAHA.

This game values mobility and combos above all else
Good thing Samus has good mobility in Sm4sh that's being buffed even more in Ultimate, and some of the most powerful and consistent combos.

she will never be as good as zss unless zss is nerfed to hell
Well yeah because ZSS is way too powerful. I could tell before Sm4sh even released. I'm all for nerfing her.
 
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Darches

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That's an easter egg, just for fun. Satisfying, no?
falcon isn't nearly as strong as DK or bowser
Falcon is very much the faster version of Ganondorf, the power difference is somewhat negligible. That's why Falcon is 34 tiers higher. Ganondorf is really only stronger on shield break.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I think that for the most part, Samus should've been the polar opposite of Zero Suit Samus. In other words...

Samus is less mobile, but her attacks offer greater KO potential to make up for it. Her attacks also offer a greater damage output than Zero Suit Samus's attacks, further improving her KO-making abilities.

Zero Suit Samus is quick, but her KO move options are very limited. Additionally, the damage output for her attacks is rather low, with her most damaging attacks not being able to deal more than 12% damage with a single hit.
 
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MERPIS

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I think that for the most part, Samus should've been the polar opposite of Zero Suit Samus. In other words...

Samus is less mobile, but her attacks offer greater KO potential to make up for it. Her attacks also offer a greater damage output than Zero Suit Samus's attacks, further improving her KO-making abilities.

Zero Suit Samus is quick, but her KO move options are very limited. Additionally, the damage output for her attacks is rather low, with her most damaging attacks not being able to deal more than 12% damage with a single hit.
She can kill at 60% and having limited kill moves doesn't mean **** when they're fast and strong too, look at mario for example
Also her damage output is definitely not low, sheik and diddy is low, hers is around bayonetta or fox level, which is good.
Besides, over all damage output doesn't matter when your combo game is godlike, diddy and sheik show this.
 

Darches

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Besides, over all damage output doesn't matter when your combo game is godlike, diddy and sheik show this.
Wrong. If you halve Diddy/Sheik's damage I guarantee they'd drop a few tiers. The reverse is true for Ganondorf. (although that's a last resort for balance)
 

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Everyone is allowed to participate in the conversation; even if you disagree with their opinion.
Wrong. If you halve Diddy/Sheik's damage I guarantee they'd drop a few tiers. The reverse is true for Ganondorf. (although that's a last resort for balance)
who cares about halving a characters damage output go away
 
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Samus has been crappier than zss. All characters, ideally should be as good. And the thing is, story-wise, power armor is supposed to be an improvement, not a burden. But so long as they're just differently powerful (speed and combos vs toughness and projectiles) it's fine. But zss shouldn't be better just because of speed. It falls into the same convo as this thread.
No, it falls into the same whining from Metroid fans that everybody is tired of hearing. Unless you want some DBZ Xenoverse “balancing” then canon is going to stay out of the discussion.
 

Quillion

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It feels strange to me that people are classifying Samus as a heavy. I know she's heavier than Ike and ROB, but somehow she feels lighter than both of them. And I know why: her melee options are awful, and she's really floaty.

If it weren't for her actual weight, I would call her an "upper middleweight" like Yoshi.
----
Actually, this reminds me: I think some people are overvaluing the effect weight has on being combo food.

The reality is that fall speed has more of an effect on being vulnerable to combos than weight does. As seen in the knockback formula, weight actually affects scaled knockback; it doesn't really affect base knockback at all.

Look at Fox: despite him being incredibly light in all Smash games, he has really fast fall speed. And because of this, he is both combo food and easily finished.

Weight does have an effect on being combo'd, but fall speed has the greater effect between the two. Weight overall really is an advantage.
 

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The reality is that fall speed has more of an effect on being vulnerable to combos than weight does. As seen in the knockback formula, weight actually affects scaled knockback; it doesn't really affect base knockback at all.

Look at Fox: despite him being incredibly light in all Smash games, he has really fast fall speed. And because of this, he is both combo food and easily finished.

Weight does have an effect on being combo'd, but fall speed has the greater effect between the two. Weight overall really is an advantage.
Fox escapes combos easily though? And Bowser is a very slow faller yet the most easily combo'd in the game? Only Dedede is a small bit harder to combo than expected. Maybe you should play the game...
 

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Fox escapes combos easily though? And Bowser is a very slow faller yet the most easily combo'd in the game? Only Dedede is a small bit harder to combo than expected. Maybe you should play the game...
Fox does have good reversals and a small hitbox. But it's still fairly easy to combo him anyway.

Trust me, I thought that weight makes you highly susceptible to combos, but most I've talked to say it's just a placebo. It's really fall speed that has the greatest effect. Weight has an effect, but not much.

I did forget the role having a large hitbox plays in being combo's, but weight's influence on such still is negligible in comparison.
 

Teeb147

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Yeah, weight, fall speed, and size all add to it. Generall for me I look more at if they're fast or not. Yoshi to me is borderline because he's heavy-ish but is fast. Samus is floaty but is still slow. I think we should be a bit broad and stop at Yoshi, who's kind of a question mark to be considered heavy. just imo.
Rob does seem like a pretty good place to stop.

Or, according to Kurogane, then we stop at Lucario:
(http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight)


SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT
1 Bowser 130
2 Donkey Kong 122
3 Dedede 119
4 Charizard 116
5 Ganondorf 113
HEAVYWEIGHT
6-7 Bowser Jr. 108
6-7 Samus 108
8-9 Ike 107
8-9 Wario 107
10 R.O.B. 106

11-13 Captain Falcon 104
11-13 Link 104
11-13 Yoshi 104
14 Ryu 103
15-16 Shulk 102
15-16 Megaman 102
17-20 Mii Swordspider (Default size) 100
17-20 Mii Brawler (Default size) 100
17-20 Mii Gunner (Default size) 100
17-20 Cloud 100
21 Lucario 99

MIDDLEWEIGHT
22-24 Corrin 98
22-24 Mario 98
(...)
 

Quillion

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Yeah, weight, fall speed, and size all add to it. Generall for me I look more at if they're fast or not. Yoshi to me is borderline because he's heavy-ish but is fast. Samus is floaty but is still slow. I think we should be a bit broad and stop at Yoshi, who's kind of a question mark to be considered heavy. just imo.
Rob does seem like a pretty good place to stop.
For me, "weight" isn't just knockback resistance or how slow they are. It's more how they feel when you play them. It's a bit hard to describe, but it comes from a combination of the characters' animations feeling like they have real momentum, how much the opponent flies back or otherwise feels "crushed", and knockback resistance (literal "weight").

It's the reason why I'm hesistant to call characters like Yoshi, Wario, and Samus "heavy", because even though they have literal "weight", they just don't feel heavy. Ike is lighter than Samus yet feels heavier than her. Shulk is lighter than Yoshi yet feels heavier than him.

If any of you are Soulsborne or Monster Hunter players, you know what I mean.
 

Teeb147

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For me, "weight" isn't just knockback resistance or how slow they are. It's more how they feel when you play them. It's a bit hard to describe, but it comes from a combination of the characters' animations feeling like they have real momentum, how much the opponent flies back or otherwise feels "crushed", and knockback resistance (literal "weight").

It's the reason why I'm hesistant to call characters like Yoshi, Wario, and Samus "heavy", because even though they have literal "weight", they just don't feel heavy. Ike is lighter than Samus yet feels heavier than her. Shulk is lighter than Yoshi yet feels heavier than him.

I get you, but that's kind of subjective. Samus still feels heavy when you get hit (and dont die):p
For simplicity at least here, how about we stop at Rob, and then we can still include Wario, Samus, Link, and maybe Yoshi as like 'borderline' heavies. I see a reason to still talk about them like they're heavy, but a lot of people might agree they don't feel like the other heavies. Captain falcon doesn't feel like it cuz he's so fast. That's how I think of them right now anyway.
 
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Unless varia samus was given a complete overhaul, she will never be as good as zss unless zss is nerfed to hell in ultimate, what samus needs to be top tier would be a way to rack up damage from afar quickly, but true to her nature her moves are slow and feel heavy, she also lacks fast projectiles outside of charge shot.
Samus doesn't require an overhaul, but some changes in her move set could help, including tweaking the properties of her attacks. If Samus' jab 1 had a different angle other than a 361° angle, it would connect and make it safer for her to deal with her opponent. If FAF was the same as in SSBM for Samus' tilts, it would be an improvement. You can see how fast Samus runs in SSB compared to how she runs now. She was faster than DK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Luigi, Mario, Ness, and Yoshi. Now DK, Kirby, Mario, and Yoshi are faster than her. Why were Captain Falcon, Fox, and Pikachu faster than Samus in SSB? I suspect CF was faster because he's a racer (although his vehicle is slower than sound and Samus is supersonic), Fox was faster because he's a fox, and Pikachu was faster because he's an electric-type.

Sakurai has said, "Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to." This was about Ridley and why he didn't add Ridley at the time. Still, if this is his philosophy about characters in general (hence the plural), it makes you wonder why Sakurai hasn't made Samus as good as she could be. She doesn't have to be faster than ZSS, but she should be faster than characters like Bowser and DK. Another issue I have is with Charge Shot. It takes 2.08 seconds to fully charge, although another source seems to say it takes longer. I just don't remember where I read that. One problem is Samus' animation. There's no need for her to swing her arm and throw it into her hand before shooting. That is impractical. She's never done this in any of her games.

#buffsamus
 

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Hi everyone. Please keep in mind that we all have different opinions and that people are allowed to state these differing opinions while in a conversation. Writing them off as stupid and insulting users for havin a differing opinion from yours if not constructive to lively and positive discussion. Please keep that in mind and we can all have a nice day.
 
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MERPIS

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Samus doesn't require an overhaul, but some changes in her move set could help, including tweaking the properties of her attacks. If Samus' jab 1 had a different angle other than a 361° angle, it would connect and make it safer for her to deal with her opponent. If FAF was the same as in SSBM for Samus' tilts, it would be an improvement. You can see how fast Samus runs in SSB compared to how she runs now. She was faster than DK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Luigi, Mario, Ness, and Yoshi. Now DK, Kirby, Mario, and Yoshi are faster than her. Why were Captain Falcon, Fox, and Pikachu faster than Samus in SSB? I suspect CF was faster because he's a racer (although his vehicle is slower than sound and Samus is supersonic), Fox was faster because he's a fox, and Pikachu was faster because he's an electric-type.

Sakurai has said, "Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to." This was about Ridley and why he didn't add Ridley at the time. Still, if this is his philosophy about characters in general (hence the plural), it makes you wonder why Sakurai hasn't made Samus as good as she could be. She doesn't have to be faster than ZSS, but she should be faster than characters like Bowser and DK. Another issue I have is with Charge Shot. It takes 2.08 seconds to fully charge, although another source seems to say it takes longer. I just don't remember where I read that. One problem is Samus' animation. There's no need for her to swing her arm and throw it into her hand before shooting. That is impractical. She's never done this in any of her games.

#buffsamus
No she's meant to be bad

Hi everyone. Please keep in mind that we all have different opinions and that people are allowed to state these differing opinions while in a conversation. Writing them off as stupid and insulting users for havin a differing opinion from yours if not constructive to lively and positive discussion. Please keep that in mind and we can all have a nice day.
lolinfraction
 

Quillion

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Samus doesn't require an overhaul, but some changes in her move set could help, including tweaking the properties of her attacks. If Samus' jab 1 had a different angle other than a 361° angle, it would connect and make it safer for her to deal with her opponent. If FAF was the same as in SSBM for Samus' tilts, it would be an improvement. You can see how fast Samus runs in SSB compared to how she runs now. She was faster than DK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Luigi, Mario, Ness, and Yoshi. Now DK, Kirby, Mario, and Yoshi are faster than her. Why were Captain Falcon, Fox, and Pikachu faster than Samus in SSB? I suspect CF was faster because he's a racer (although his vehicle is slower than sound and Samus is supersonic), Fox was faster because he's a fox, and Pikachu was faster because he's an electric-type.

Sakurai has said, "Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to." This was about Ridley and why he didn't add Ridley at the time. Still, if this is his philosophy about characters in general (hence the plural), it makes you wonder why Sakurai hasn't made Samus as good as she could be. She doesn't have to be faster than ZSS, but she should be faster than characters like Bowser and DK. Another issue I have is with Charge Shot. It takes 2.08 seconds to fully charge, although another source seems to say it takes longer. I just don't remember where I read that. One problem is Samus' animation. There's no need for her to swing her arm and throw it into her hand before shooting. That is impractical. She's never done this in any of her games.

#buffsamus
No she's meant to be bad


lolinfraction
This is getting off the rails. Can you please discuss that on the Samus subforum, please?
 

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Actually, this reminds me: I think some people are overvaluing the effect weight has on being combo food.

The reality is that fall speed has more of an effect on being vulnerable to combos than weight does. As seen in the knockback formula, weight actually affects scaled knockback; it doesn't really affect base knockback at all.

Look at Fox: despite him being incredibly light in all Smash games, he has really fast fall speed. And because of this, he is both combo food and easily finished.

Weight does have an effect on being combo'd, but fall speed has the greater effect between the two. Weight overall really is an advantage.
It should probably be noted that gravity also plays a factor when it comes to a fighter's vertical endurance. Greninja is heavier than Little Mac AND falls faster than him, but because its gravity is much higher, its vertical endurance is worse, and as such, it can get KO'd vertically sooner than Little Mac.
 

Quillion

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It should probably be noted that gravity also plays a factor when it comes to a fighter's vertical endurance. Greninja is heavier than Little Mac AND falls faster than him, but because its gravity is much higher, its vertical endurance is worse, and as such, it can get KO'd vertically sooner than Little Mac.
Odd how the "vertical knockback normalization" formula does that to some of the heavier characters. It does stop Fox from surviving overly strong vertical finishers, though.
 
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This talk about heavies is interesting. I may add that other fighting games don't focus that much on mobility and open spaces like in Smash.
In the Smash series, you have a ton freedom of movement and most stages are big enough to allow to take advantage of that, so this is something that indirectly affects heavy characters in a negative way.
In a game like Pokken, heavies are scary powerhouses because once they pin you against the wall, they can keep you in that disadvantageous state for a while because the opponent has nowhere to run. That is not the case in Smash.
 

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This talk about heavies is interesting. I may add that other fighting games don't focus that much on mobility and open spaces like in Smash.
In the Smash series, you have a ton freedom of movement and most stages are big enough to allow to take advantage of that, so this is something that indirectly affects heavy characters in a negative way.
In a game like Pokken, heavies are scary powerhouses because once they pin you against the wall, they can keep you in that disadvantageous state for a while because the opponent has nowhere to run. That is not the case in Smash.
The open spaces definitely are an issue, but that's the reason why the competitive-legal stages are small. I think that as Sakurai grows more in touch with the competitive community (slowly but surely), the Smash team makes a concerted effort to balance around these smaller stages as opposed to the bigger ones.

What you said about "pinning you against the wall" leads another issue, though. The equivalent to that in Smash is ledge trapping and edgeguarding... yet heavies in Smash don't really have good options for either. Edgeguarding for heavies is often too risky due to poor frame data or disadvantageous fall speeds. Ledge trapping tends to be similarly bad for the same reasons plus a lack of good projectiles.

Your thread is about heavy characters. Samus is a heavy character. :ohwell:
Sorry; it's your (one-sided) fight with MERPIS that I'm more worried about.

Thing is, it's really hard for me to think of Samus as being a heavy because her melee offense is weak, her finishers are poor, and she's floaty.

Even then, I think the problem is that the Smash team is trying to differentiate ZSS and Samus, but not giving Samus the strengths to compensate. ZSS is supposed to be the fast, rushdown-heavy combo monster, and Samus is supposed to be the impenetrable zoner with a wall of projectiles. But instead of strengthening Samus's projectile game, they've weakened her melee game with no compensation just to hype up ZSS's more.
 
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Sorry; it's your (one-sided) fight with MERPIS that I'm more worried about.

Thing is, it's really hard for me to think of Samus as being a heavy because her melee offense is weak, her finishers are poor, and she's floaty.

Even then, I think the problem is that the Smash team is trying to differentiate ZSS and Samus, but not giving Samus the strengths to compensate. ZSS is supposed to be the fast, rushdown-heavy combo monster, and Samus is supposed to be the impenetrable zoner with a wall of projectiles. But instead of strengthening Samus's projectile game, they've weakened her melee game with no compensation just to hype up ZSS's more.
There isn't a fight between MERPIS and I.

Just because it's hard for you to think of Samus as being heavy because her CQC sucks and because she's floaty doesn't make her less heavy. She's ranked with Bowser Jr. Samus' projectiles suck. It's easier to land and kill using Captain Falcon's f-air than it is with Samus' Charge Shot.
 

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The open spaces definitely are an issue, but that's the reason why the competitive-legal stages are small. I think that as Sakurai grows more in touch with the competitive community (slowly but surely), the Smash team makes a concerted effort to balance around these smaller stages as opposed to the bigger ones.

What you said about "pinning you against the wall" leads another issue, though. The equivalent to that in Smash is ledge trapping and edgeguarding... yet heavies in Smash don't really have good options for either. Edgeguarding for heavies is often too risky due to poor frame data or disadvantageous fall speeds. Ledge trapping tends to be similarly bad for the same reasons plus a lack of good projectiles.



Sorry; it's your (one-sided) fight with MERPIS that I'm more worried about.

Thing is, it's really hard for me to think of Samus as being a heavy because her melee offense is weak, her finishers are poor, and she's floaty.

Even then, I think the problem is that the Smash team is trying to differentiate ZSS and Samus, but not giving Samus the strengths to compensate. ZSS is supposed to be the fast, rushdown-heavy combo monster, and Samus is supposed to be the impenetrable zoner with a wall of projectiles. But instead of strengthening Samus's projectile game, they've weakened her melee game with no compensation just to hype up ZSS's more.
It feels like you're falling into the trap of heavy characters having to play or be designed a certain way, else they cease to be "heavy characters". We should try to avoid that. I'd rather all the heavies feel like they are unique experiences rather than the same archetype with only a few things added/subtracted.
 

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What makes you say that? Is that a serious response or not?
Whenever a long-ranged projectile is fired, players can easily get out of its path, pretty much rendering it useless; you'd have to fire the projectile at close range to have a better chance of landing it, but even then, the start-up lag before releasing the projectile can be just enough for the opponent to get his/her shield or reflector ready.

But what really hurts Charge Shot is that the full charge's knockback statistics are rather weak for an attack that deals 25% damage. So even if you do land the full charge, it will lack the knockback that's needed to KO fighters at lower damage percentages.
 

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There isn't a fight between MERPIS and I.

Just because it's hard for you to think of Samus as being heavy because her CQC sucks and because she's floaty doesn't make her less heavy. She's ranked with Bowser Jr. Samus' projectiles suck. It's easier to land and kill using Captain Falcon's f-air than it is with Samus' Charge Shot.
It feels like you're falling into the trap of heavy characters having to play or be designed a certain way, else they cease to be "heavy characters". We should try to avoid that. I'd rather all the heavies feel like they are unique experiences rather than the same archetype with only a few things added/subtracted.
About that: I think there's a fine line between "heavy characters" and "characters with high weight". I described what I believe this is in an earlier post:

For me, "weight" isn't just knockback resistance or how slow they are. It's more how they feel when you play them. It's a bit hard to describe, but it comes from a combination of the characters' animations feeling like they have real momentum, how much the opponent flies back or otherwise feels "crushed", and knockback resistance (literal "weight").

It's the reason why I'm hesistant to call characters like Yoshi, Wario, and Samus "heavy", because even though they have literal "weight", they just don't feel heavy. Ike is lighter than Samus yet feels heavier than her. Shulk is lighter than Yoshi yet feels heavier than him.

If any of you are Soulsborne or Monster Hunter players, you know what I mean.
I actually do think heavy characters need certain attributes to be considered to be "heavy characters". It's not enough that they just have "high weight". Their attacks need to feel heavy as well. Their attacks don't have to be telegraphably slow, nor do they have to do a 35+ damage; they just need a good sense of momentum and impact to their moves. Both the actual numbers and animations must contribute to this.

Like I said before, I feel Melee Ganondorf and Smash 4 DK are the best-designed heavies in the series: they have high weight and have heavy hits, but have useful all-purpose tools mixed in with their heavy hits. As Mario & Sonic Guy Mario & Sonic Guy said, Samus's attacks, melee and projectile alike, just don't feel heavy at all. And you can't just make Chansey a Jigglypuff Echo, give her high weight, barely change her frame data, damage, and knockback values, and call her a heavy character, you get what I'm saying?

Necro'lic Necro'lic alone: Otherwise, I agree with you. I was just trying to apply what Ryu Myuutsu Ryu Myuutsu said about how heavies in Pokkén can pin opponents into a disadvantageous vortex and commented that characters in Smash do this by putting opponents in a recovery state. I do think a few heavies can stand to have better edgeguarding and ledge trapping options. Dedede kinda has his Gordo Toss, but even that attack can be improved for better options. Bowser and Charizard's Neutral B would be good ledge trappers if their endlag wasn't so bad.
 

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There isn't a fight between MERPIS and I.

Just because it's hard for you to think of Samus as being heavy because her CQC sucks and because she's floaty doesn't make her less heavy. She's ranked with Bowser Jr. Samus' projectiles suck. It's easier to land and kill using Captain Falcon's f-air than it is with Samus' Charge Shot.
who said that I said samus wasnt heavy, she wears a frigging bionic suit of power armor of course she’s heavy, but ye her CQC and camp both suck
 

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And you can't just make Chansey a Jigglypuff Echo, give her high weight, barely change her frame data, damage, and knockback values, and call her a heavy character, you get what I'm saying?
I should probably mention that there's no way that Chansey would be Jigglypuff's Echo Fighter if its attributes are different.
 
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What makes you say that? Is that a serious response or not?
I main Samus. I see Captain Falcon players land f-air much easier. Charge Shot takes 2.08 seconds to charge.

About that: I think there's a fine line between "heavy characters" and "characters with high weight". I described what I believe this is in an earlier post:
Ike feels heavy due to a number of factors such as fall speed and gravity. He hits harder, which could be attributed to knock-back. By this point, you're not even referring to just weight. The thing about video games is they don't follow physical law. (The game engine is subject to physical law, but a video game character lacks something like density.) You'd expect a heavy character to fall faster, although that's not necessarily the case. So you'll need to clarify what you mean in your first post for future readers to avoid confusion.
 
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Necro'lic

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I'm back to bring back this thread from the dead. >:D

So I made this post in the Samus discussion forum. I think sharing it hear sounds like a good idea considering how much discussion of Samus happened here lately.

This is a continuation of a thread of balance ideas I had for characters years ago in a series I liked to call "Balance Philosophy". I basically went though each character and tried to explain how to design them for a specific niche/purpose with set strengths and weaknesses. As that was for Smash 4 and this "wish list" is for Ultimate, I'm going to have to be a lot more vague on my ideas of buffs and nerfs, but I wanted to get this out there because Samus is one of those characters that has been at a losing streak in terms of viability lately, and I usually try to go after those types of characters first.

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Here I will list the specific niches I would think/want Samus to fulfill as a fighter as well as what I think/want her specific strengths and weaknesses should be. Note that these are what they should be should she be designed and balanced well, not what they are or will be, because I'm sure inevitably I will be off the mark, but this is a wish list, so I will go with what I want.

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Samus :ultsamus:

Purpose: Zoner/Edgeguarder/High aerial pressure/Hard to take stocks

Strengths should be:

High damage arsenal of projectiles
Great aerial zoning capability
High aerial maneuverability
Very high priority to get out of disadvantage

Weaknesses should be:

Low damage output in neutral
Mediocre combo potential
Low killing potential
Mediocre grab

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First some general stuff that I would want for her. Some of this will involve universal things among all characters.

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General Statistics: :ultsamus:

  • Above average weight
  • Average walk speed
  • Slightly below average run speed
  • Above average horizontal air speed
  • Standardized first jump
    • (All first jumps for all characters will be the same height: around 80% the height of the top platform in Battlefield)
  • Above average double jump height
    • (Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Samus will have a higher than average double jump after this is taken into account)
  • Above average horizontal air speed
  • Below average fall speed
  • Wall Jump (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)
  • High roll distance
    • (All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance. The frame data would be lower than it is currently for Samus in Smash 4)
  • Average shield health
    • (Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Samus would have 100)
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So this seems a bit superfluous and weird, but something I learned throughout the years of studying game design is that to truly make a game balanced, or at least not have broken characters, is to give all of your characters a set baseline of defensive options with little variance. The jump height of the first jump would be standard through all characters, meaning all characters are now able to navigate platforms equally, barring air speed differentiation. Also, I feel giving all characters wall jumps was a given too, since it can be very useful and simply adds an option to a player's ability to move around. In addition, rolls, as well as other dodges, would definitely have a set frame data universal to everyone, which means the variance will only be distance. This means no matter the character, a roll is a roll is a roll. If something is countered by a roll with one character based on high invincibility window, chances are it will be countered by everyone's roll. And even with the distance variation, I would put a limit on it. If Mario's roll is 100%, then the shortest roll could not be below 80% and the highest couldn't be above 120%. We give this slight variation to have some rolls be more useful without any not being able to function as a roll like it would for any other character. I would definitely have Samus's roll be at the top, but now you know why I did this.

To go to the double jump height, her double jump height currently in 4 probably is what I would consider above average after I would nerf the double jumps. But why would I buff almost all single jumps but nerf most double jumps? The idea is that just like airdodging, jumping is a great way to dodge out of a disadvantageous position. By having them be shorter, the ability to simply jump out of trouble is more limited, since the enemy can chase in equal measure or even more if they hit the ground and jump again due to the higher single jump. On top of this, it leaves edgeguarding even more in favor of the person in advantage, since they have a much easier time catching jumps as well as harder for people offstage since their one jump is worse. We would still have ledge trumping, so it wouldn't be hopeless, but definitely harder.

So knowing all of this, why would I give Samus a higher than average double jump? Two reasons: firstly, it plays to her airfighter motif I think she should build off of and second, it gives her a way out of disadvantage that most characters wouldn't have, along with her high roll distance.

Can't believe I explained all of these ideas when I already know people aren't interested in them just to make a point of Samus having better disdvantage state and air game than average with these ideas lol. Onto the moves.

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:GCA::GCA::GCA:Jab:

  • A punch, followed by an overhead with the gun, followed by a quick power beam shot to the ground similar to DTilt.
    • This means there is a third hit added to jab
  • Jab 1 and 2 would link into each other; Jab 2 and 3 would not
    • Jab 3 however, can be comboed into Jab 2 on an airborne opponent
    • Jab 3 can also be delayed
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Jab 1: 1.8%
    • Jab 2: 4.6%
    • Jab 3: 5.2%
    • Total: 11.6%
  • Knockback for Jab 3 would be angled to leave the enemy right above Samus by default
    • Jab 3 base knockback low in order to lead into aerial combos at up to mid percents
  • Jab 3 can kill around 140%
  • Jab 1 and 2 are safe on shield; Jab 3 is not
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This adds a new part of Jab. A much more specific yet very useful combo starter option. On top of this, if maybe a low distance throw is done, it can combo all the way through, giving Samus a good quick combo starter. However, by default, the third hit that starts combos does not link into the second jab hit, but since it can be delayed as well as cancelled, it can still lead to some good mindgame ability.

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:GCA::GCR:FTilt:

  • Long range sweeping kick. Can be aimed up and down. Has sweetspot and sourspot.
    • Sweetspot is thigh of leg and body
    • Sourspot is foot
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Body sweetspot: 8.5%
    • Leg sweetspot: 9.5%
    • Sourspot: 6.5%
  • Sweetspots will have a chance to trip the opponent, sourspot will not
  • Regardless of where move hits, enemy will be knocked back a set distance in front of Samus
    • Distance will equal about one Samus roll away
  • Sourspot is safe on shield, sweetspots are not
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The idea of this move is basically the get off me move/tech chasing option, as well as a niche shield pressure option as well as a followup for the aforementioned Jab 2 since it's now useful on shield. Note that the sourspot on the foot is safe but the sweetspots on the body and thigh aren't. This emphasizes Samus's need for zoning as well as her lacking shield pressure when up close, though not none, obviously.

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:GCA::GCU: UTilt:

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COMING SOON

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:GCA::GCD:DTilt:

  • New move: Will now shoot an ice missile diagonally downward very quickly in front of her; this is now a projectile.
    • This means at the edge, she can shoot the projectile diagonally downward. Will home in slightly and is slightly slower than Homing Missiles
    • Under normal circumstances on the ground, will work much like the current DTilt or new Jab 3 with the explosion happening in front of Samus
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Blast: 8.2%
  • The explosion will freeze enemies and send them upwards
  • DTilt can kill at around 150%
  • DTilt is safe on shield but has high endlag
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Another totally good idea don't you think? Now fitting with her edgeguarding aim, Samus can now send projectiles downward off the stage that aren't just bombs. It's also super quick, making it a pretty good out of shield option to quickly freeze opponents upward and rack up damage on their frozen body before maybe getting a read in on thawing out. It works towards her aerial fighter motif as well as her edgeguarding motif as well as her being good at disadvantage all at once. As a disadvantage it is not spammable and can be punished on whiff, but is still safe on shield, but just barely, as all DTilts should be. (That's another one of my universal rule deals)

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:GCCR: FSmash:

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COMING SOON

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:GCCU: USmash:

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COMING SOON

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:GCCD: DSmash:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCA: NAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCR::GCA: FAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCL::GCA: BAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCU::GCA: UAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCD::GCA: DAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCB: Neutral-B:

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COMING SOON

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:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side-B:

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COMING SOON

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:GCU::GCB:Up-B:

  • Screw Attack: Will elevate Samus very quickly in the air, trapping anyone near her with her and damaging them.
  • Screw Attack on the ground will not send Samus into a helpless state
  • Screw Attack can now be aimed at left and right angles upwards at the maximum of around 40 degrees in either direction
  • Screw Attack should come out very fast and have super armor frames right before and during ascent
  • Screw Attack can kill around 150%
  • Screw Attack will knockback enemies upwards at around a 35 degree angle by default depending on what side the enemy is on
  • Screw Attack is not safe on shield
  • Screw Attack should always catch hit opponents and not push them back sideways
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Ascent hit: 2.0%
    • Screw: 0.6% * 10
    • Final hit: 2.5%
    • Total: 10.5%

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So first off, the angling and the lack of helplessness on the move while grounded makes it much better for starting aerial pressure as well as making it a better anti-air. On top of that, it now has super armor at the beginning of the move, making it another good out of shield option for Samus. The damage is a bit lower to compensate for these awesome options given to the player. Plus, even though it's a quick move towards advantage, due to the ease of DI'ing, it makes it hard to true combo off of, sticking with Samus's mediocre combo potential while still staying true to her good aerial pressure game. And if you remember the double jump changes I mentioned earlier, this means Samus can easily follow up on the opponent's jump should they choose to and actually use yet another Screw Attack off the ceiling.

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:GCD::GCB: Down-B:

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COMING SOON

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:GCZ:Grab and Pummel:

  • Tether grab that has high duration and range, but also high endlag.
  • Tether grab frame data would be standardized to match all other tether grabs
    • Tether vs Regular grabs
      • Higher startup frames for all types
      • Higher endlag frames for all types
      • Higher range
      • Higher hitbox duration
      • Acts as disjoints
  • In terms of current Smash 4 Samus, grab would have faster startup, more hitbox duration, and slightly less endlag
  • Approximate pummel damage: 0.7%

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So like I said, Samus has a mediocre grab. I think this is by design and I'm keeping it because it fits in with her less viable neutral game up close at least. However, I think tether grabs are a bit TOO punishing, so I would standardize all grabs, both regular and tether, to have the same frame data just like rolls and the variation would be in range as well as, you know, all the grabs that come out of it, rather than speed. Her pummel gets a damage nerf to compensate.

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:GCX::GCZ: ZAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCZ::GCR: FThrow:

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COMING SOON

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:GCZ::GCL: BThrow:

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COMING SOON

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:GCZ::GCU: UThrow:

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COMING SOON

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:GCZ::GCD: DThrow:

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COMING SOON

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I'm leaving a lot of move spots open for later in case I think about a good idea. Plus I didn't want to overwhelm anyone. Hopefully from the few moves I actually talked about, you understand what I was going for and what I want out of Samus. Hopefully the Samus mains here don't get too mad. :scared:
 

Thinkaman

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This isn't quite the place for wishlists and move-by-move deep analysis. I'd suggest broad strokes about how you think systematic changes in the game will effect her compared to other heavies, given her unique situation.
 
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