Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
HAHAHAHA.
Good thing Samus has good mobility in Sm4sh that's being buffed even more in Ultimate, and some of the most powerful and consistent combos.
Well yeah because ZSS is way too powerful. I could tell before Sm4sh even released. I'm all for nerfing her.
Lmao you think I'm joking, I'm not wrong
Falcon is very much the faster version of Ganondorf, the power difference is somewhat negligible. That's why Falcon is 34 tiers higher. Ganondorf is really only stronger on shield break.
She can kill at 60% and having limited kill moves doesn't mean **** when they're fast and strong too, look at mario for example
Wrong. If you halve Diddy/Sheik's damage I guarantee they'd drop a few tiers. The reverse is true for Ganondorf. (although that's a last resort for balance)
who cares about halving a characters damage output go away
like for free iphone
No, it falls into the same whining from Metroid fans that everybody is tired of hearing. Unless you want some DBZ Xenoverse “balancing” then canon is going to stay out of the discussion.
Fox escapes combos easily though? And Bowser is a very slow faller yet the most easily combo'd in the game? Only Dedede is a small bit harder to combo than expected. Maybe you should play the game...
Fox is small and bowser is big, simple logic if you actually looked at their character models
Fox does have good reversals and a small hitbox. But it's still fairly easy to combo him anyway.
For me, "weight" isn't just knockback resistance or how slow they are. It's more how they feel when you play them. It's a bit hard to describe, but it comes from a combination of the characters' animations feeling like they have real momentum, how much the opponent flies back or otherwise feels "crushed", and knockback resistance (literal "weight").
Samus doesn't require an overhaul, but some changes in her move set could help, including tweaking the properties of her attacks. If Samus' jab 1 had a different angle other than a 361° angle, it would connect and make it safer for her to deal with her opponent. If FAF was the same as in SSBM for Samus' tilts, it would be an improvement. You can see how fast Samus runs in SSB compared to how she runs now. She was faster than DK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Luigi, Mario, Ness, and Yoshi. Now DK, Kirby, Mario, and Yoshi are faster than her. Why were Captain Falcon, Fox, and Pikachu faster than Samus in SSB? I suspect CF was faster because he's a racer (although his vehicle is slower than sound and Samus is supersonic), Fox was faster because he's a fox, and Pikachu was faster because he's an electric-type.
This is getting off the rails. Can you please discuss that on the Samus subforum, please?
It should probably be noted that gravity also plays a factor when it comes to a fighter's vertical endurance. Greninja is heavier than Little Mac AND falls faster than him, but because its gravity is much higher, its vertical endurance is worse, and as such, it can get KO'd vertically sooner than Little Mac.
Odd how the "vertical knockback normalization" formula does that to some of the heavier characters. It does stop Fox from surviving overly strong vertical finishers, though.
calm down charizard
Your thread is about heavy characters. Samus is a heavy character.
The open spaces definitely are an issue, but that's the reason why the competitive-legal stages are small. I think that as Sakurai grows more in touch with the competitive community (slowly but surely), the Smash team makes a concerted effort to balance around these smaller stages as opposed to the bigger ones.
Sorry; it's your (one-sided) fight with MERPIS that I'm more worried about.Your thread is about heavy characters. Samus is a heavy character.
There isn't a fight between MERPIS and I.
It feels like you're falling into the trap of heavy characters having to play or be designed a certain way, else they cease to be "heavy characters". We should try to avoid that. I'd rather all the heavies feel like they are unique experiences rather than the same archetype with only a few things added/subtracted.
What makes you say that? Is that a serious response or not?
Setups into it, not being telegraphed as hell, it not having to charge, etc
Whenever a long-ranged projectile is fired, players can easily get out of its path, pretty much rendering it useless; you'd have to fire the projectile at close range to have a better chance of landing it, but even then, the start-up lag before releasing the projectile can be just enough for the opponent to get his/her shield or reflector ready.
About that: I think there's a fine line between "heavy characters" and "characters with high weight". I described what I believe this is in an earlier post:
I actually do think heavy characters need certain attributes to be considered to be "heavy characters". It's not enough that they just have "high weight". Their attacks need to feel heavy as well. Their attacks don't have to be telegraphably slow, nor do they have to do a 35+ damage; they just need a good sense of momentum and impact to their moves. Both the actual numbers and animations must contribute to this.
Mario & Sonic Guy
said, Samus's attacks, melee and projectile alike, just don't feel heavy at all. And you can't just make Chansey a Jigglypuff Echo, give her high weight, barely change her frame data, damage, and knockback values, and call her a heavy character, you get what I'm saying?
Necro'lic
alone: Otherwise, I agree with you. I was just trying to apply what
Ryu Myuutsu
said about how heavies in Pokkén can pin opponents into a disadvantageous vortex and commented that characters in Smash do this by putting opponents in a recovery state. I do think a few heavies can stand to have better edgeguarding and ledge trapping options. Dedede kinda has his Gordo Toss, but even that attack can be improved for better options. Bowser and Charizard's Neutral B would be good ledge trappers if their endlag wasn't so bad.
who said that I said samus wasnt heavy, she wears a frigging bionic suit of power armor of course she’s heavy, but ye her CQC and camp both suck
I should probably mention that there's no way that Chansey would be Jigglypuff's Echo Fighter if its attributes are different.
I main Samus. I see Captain Falcon players land f-air much easier. Charge Shot takes 2.08 seconds to charge.
Ike feels heavy due to a number of factors such as fall speed and gravity. He hits harder, which could be attributed to knock-back. By this point, you're not even referring to just weight. The thing about video games is they don't follow physical law. (The game engine is subject to physical law, but a video game character lacks something like density.) You'd expect a heavy character to fall faster, although that's not necessarily the case. So you'll need to clarify what you mean in your first post for future readers to avoid confusion.
This is a continuation of a thread of balance ideas I had for characters years ago in a series I liked to call "Balance Philosophy". I basically went though each character and tried to explain how to design them for a specific niche/purpose with set strengths and weaknesses. As that was for Smash 4 and this "wish list" is for Ultimate, I'm going to have to be a lot more vague on my ideas of buffs and nerfs, but I wanted to get this out there because Samus is one of those characters that has been at a losing streak in terms of viability lately, and I usually try to go after those types of characters first.
-------------------------
Here I will list the specific niches I would think/want Samus to fulfill as a fighter as well as what I think/want her specific strengths and weaknesses should be. Note that these are what they should be should she be designed and balanced well, not what they are or will be, because I'm sure inevitably I will be off the mark, but this is a wish list, so I will go with what I want.
-------------------------
Samus
Purpose: Zoner/Edgeguarder/High aerial pressure/Hard to take stocks
Strengths should be:
High damage arsenal of projectiles
Great aerial zoning capability
High aerial maneuverability
Very high priority to get out of disadvantage
Weaknesses should be:
Low damage output in neutral
Mediocre combo potential
Low killing potential
Mediocre grab
-------------------------
First some general stuff that I would want for her. Some of this will involve universal things among all characters.
-----------------------------------------------------
General Statistics:
------------------------------------------------------
- Above average weight
- Average walk speed
- Slightly below average run speed
- Above average horizontal air speed
- Standardized first jump
- (All first jumps for all characters will be the same height: around 80% the height of the top platform in Battlefield)
- Above average double jump height
- (Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Samus will have a higher than average double jump after this is taken into account)
- Above average horizontal air speed
- Below average fall speed
- Wall Jump (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)
- High roll distance
- (All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance. The frame data would be lower than it is currently for Samus in Smash 4)
- Average shield health
- (Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Samus would have 100)
So this seems a bit superfluous and weird, but something I learned throughout the years of studying game design is that to truly make a game balanced, or at least not have broken characters, is to give all of your characters a set baseline of defensive options with little variance. The jump height of the first jump would be standard through all characters, meaning all characters are now able to navigate platforms equally, barring air speed differentiation. Also, I feel giving all characters wall jumps was a given too, since it can be very useful and simply adds an option to a player's ability to move around. In addition, rolls, as well as other dodges, would definitely have a set frame data universal to everyone, which means the variance will only be distance. This means no matter the character, a roll is a roll is a roll. If something is countered by a roll with one character based on high invincibility window, chances are it will be countered by everyone's roll. And even with the distance variation, I would put a limit on it. If Mario's roll is 100%, then the shortest roll could not be below 80% and the highest couldn't be above 120%. We give this slight variation to have some rolls be more useful without any not being able to function as a roll like it would for any other character. I would definitely have Samus's roll be at the top, but now you know why I did this.
To go to the double jump height, her double jump height currently in 4 probably is what I would consider above average after I would nerf the double jumps. But why would I buff almost all single jumps but nerf most double jumps? The idea is that just like airdodging, jumping is a great way to dodge out of a disadvantageous position. By having them be shorter, the ability to simply jump out of trouble is more limited, since the enemy can chase in equal measure or even more if they hit the ground and jump again due to the higher single jump. On top of this, it leaves edgeguarding even more in favor of the person in advantage, since they have a much easier time catching jumps as well as harder for people offstage since their one jump is worse. We would still have ledge trumping, so it wouldn't be hopeless, but definitely harder.
So knowing all of this, why would I give Samus a higher than average double jump? Two reasons: firstly, it plays to her airfighter motif I think she should build off of and second, it gives her a way out of disadvantage that most characters wouldn't have, along with her high roll distance.
Can't believe I explained all of these ideas when I already know people aren't interested in them just to make a point of Samus having better disdvantage state and air game than average with these ideas lol. Onto the moves.
------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
- A punch, followed by an overhead with the gun, followed by a quick power beam shot to the ground similar to DTilt.
- This means there is a third hit added to jab
- Jab 1 and 2 would link into each other; Jab 2 and 3 would not
- Jab 3 however, can be comboed into Jab 2 on an airborne opponent
- Jab 3 can also be delayed
- Approximate damage numbers:
- Jab 1: 1.8%
- Jab 2: 4.6%
- Jab 3: 5.2%
- Total: 11.6%
- Knockback for Jab 3 would be angled to leave the enemy right above Samus by default
- Jab 3 base knockback low in order to lead into aerial combos at up to mid percents
- Jab 3 can kill around 140%
- Jab 1 and 2 are safe on shield; Jab 3 is not
This adds a new part of Jab. A much more specific yet very useful combo starter option. On top of this, if maybe a low distance throw is done, it can combo all the way through, giving Samus a good quick combo starter. However, by default, the third hit that starts combos does not link into the second jab hit, but since it can be delayed as well as cancelled, it can still lead to some good mindgame ability.
-------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
- Long range sweeping kick. Can be aimed up and down. Has sweetspot and sourspot.
- Sweetspot is thigh of leg and body
- Sourspot is foot
- Approximate damage numbers:
- Body sweetspot: 8.5%
- Leg sweetspot: 9.5%
- Sourspot: 6.5%
- Sweetspots will have a chance to trip the opponent, sourspot will not
- Regardless of where move hits, enemy will be knocked back a set distance in front of Samus
- Distance will equal about one Samus roll away
- Sourspot is safe on shield, sweetspots are not
The idea of this move is basically the get off me move/tech chasing option, as well as a niche shield pressure option as well as a followup for the aforementioned Jab 2 since it's now useful on shield. Note that the sourspot on the foot is safe but the sweetspots on the body and thigh aren't. This emphasizes Samus's need for zoning as well as her lacking shield pressure when up close, though not none, obviously.
------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
- New move: Will now shoot an ice missile diagonally downward very quickly in front of her; this is now a projectile.
- This means at the edge, she can shoot the projectile diagonally downward. Will home in slightly and is slightly slower than Homing Missiles
- Under normal circumstances on the ground, will work much like the current DTilt or new Jab 3 with the explosion happening in front of Samus
- Approximate damage numbers:
- Blast: 8.2%
- The explosion will freeze enemies and send them upwards
- DTilt can kill at around 150%
- DTilt is safe on shield but has high endlag
Another totally good idea don't you think? Now fitting with her edgeguarding aim, Samus can now send projectiles downward off the stage that aren't just bombs. It's also super quick, making it a pretty good out of shield option to quickly freeze opponents upward and rack up damage on their frozen body before maybe getting a read in on thawing out. It works towards her aerial fighter motif as well as her edgeguarding motif as well as her being good at disadvantage all at once. As a disadvantage it is not spammable and can be punished on whiff, but is still safe on shield, but just barely, as all DTilts should be. (That's another one of my universal rule deals)
--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
- Screw Attack: Will elevate Samus very quickly in the air, trapping anyone near her with her and damaging them.
- Screw Attack on the ground will not send Samus into a helpless state
- Screw Attack can now be aimed at left and right angles upwards at the maximum of around 40 degrees in either direction
- Screw Attack should come out very fast and have super armor frames right before and during ascent
- Screw Attack can kill around 150%
- Screw Attack will knockback enemies upwards at around a 35 degree angle by default depending on what side the enemy is on
- Screw Attack is not safe on shield
- Screw Attack should always catch hit opponents and not push them back sideways
- Approximate damage numbers:
- Ascent hit: 2.0%
- Screw: 0.6% * 10
- Final hit: 2.5%
- Total: 10.5%
-------------------------------------------------------
So first off, the angling and the lack of helplessness on the move while grounded makes it much better for starting aerial pressure as well as making it a better anti-air. On top of that, it now has super armor at the beginning of the move, making it another good out of shield option for Samus. The damage is a bit lower to compensate for these awesome options given to the player. Plus, even though it's a quick move towards advantage, due to the ease of DI'ing, it makes it hard to true combo off of, sticking with Samus's mediocre combo potential while still staying true to her good aerial pressure game. And if you remember the double jump changes I mentioned earlier, this means Samus can easily follow up on the opponent's jump should they choose to and actually use yet another Screw Attack off the ceiling.
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
- Tether grab that has high duration and range, but also high endlag.
- Tether grab frame data would be standardized to match all other tether grabs
- Tether vs Regular grabs
- Higher startup frames for all types
- Higher endlag frames for all types
- Higher range
- Higher hitbox duration
- Acts as disjoints
- In terms of current Smash 4 Samus, grab would have faster startup, more hitbox duration, and slightly less endlag
- Approximate pummel damage: 0.7%
-------------------------------------------------------
So like I said, Samus has a mediocre grab. I think this is by design and I'm keeping it because it fits in with her less viable neutral game up close at least. However, I think tether grabs are a bit TOO punishing, so I would standardize all grabs, both regular and tether, to have the same frame data just like rolls and the variation would be in range as well as, you know, all the grabs that come out of it, rather than speed. Her pummel gets a damage nerf to compensate.
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
COMING SOON
-------------------------------------------------------
I'm leaving a lot of move spots open for later in case I think about a good idea. Plus I didn't want to overwhelm anyone. Hopefully from the few moves I actually talked about, you understand what I was going for and what I want out of Samus. Hopefully the Samus mains here don't get too mad.
