What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?

Darches

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falcon isn't nearly as strong as DK or bowser
HAHAHAHA.

This game values mobility and combos above all else
Good thing Samus has good mobility in Sm4sh that's being buffed even more in Ultimate, and some of the most powerful and consistent combos.

she will never be as good as zss unless zss is nerfed to hell
Well yeah because ZSS is way too powerful. I could tell before Sm4sh even released. I'm all for nerfing her.
 
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Darches

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That's an easter egg, just for fun. Satisfying, no?
falcon isn't nearly as strong as DK or bowser
Falcon is very much the faster version of Ganondorf, the power difference is somewhat negligible. That's why Falcon is 34 tiers higher. Ganondorf is really only stronger on shield break.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I think that for the most part, Samus should've been the polar opposite of Zero Suit Samus. In other words...

Samus is less mobile, but her attacks offer greater KO potential to make up for it. Her attacks also offer a greater damage output than Zero Suit Samus's attacks, further improving her KO-making abilities.

Zero Suit Samus is quick, but her KO move options are very limited. Additionally, the damage output for her attacks is rather low, with her most damaging attacks not being able to deal more than 12% damage with a single hit.
 
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MERPIS

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I think that for the most part, Samus should've been the polar opposite of Zero Suit Samus. In other words...

Samus is less mobile, but her attacks offer greater KO potential to make up for it. Her attacks also offer a greater damage output than Zero Suit Samus's attacks, further improving her KO-making abilities.

Zero Suit Samus is quick, but her KO move options are very limited. Additionally, the damage output for her attacks is rather low, with her most damaging attacks not being able to deal more than 12% damage with a single hit.
She can kill at 60% and having limited kill moves doesn't mean **** when they're fast and strong too, look at mario for example
Also her damage output is definitely not low, sheik and diddy is low, hers is around bayonetta or fox level, which is good.
Besides, over all damage output doesn't matter when your combo game is godlike, diddy and sheik show this.
 

Darches

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Besides, over all damage output doesn't matter when your combo game is godlike, diddy and sheik show this.
Wrong. If you halve Diddy/Sheik's damage I guarantee they'd drop a few tiers. The reverse is true for Ganondorf. (although that's a last resort for balance)
 

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Everyone is allowed to participate in the conversation; even if you disagree with their opinion.
Wrong. If you halve Diddy/Sheik's damage I guarantee they'd drop a few tiers. The reverse is true for Ganondorf. (although that's a last resort for balance)
who cares about halving a characters damage output go away
 
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Samus has been crappier than zss. All characters, ideally should be as good. And the thing is, story-wise, power armor is supposed to be an improvement, not a burden. But so long as they're just differently powerful (speed and combos vs toughness and projectiles) it's fine. But zss shouldn't be better just because of speed. It falls into the same convo as this thread.
No, it falls into the same whining from Metroid fans that everybody is tired of hearing. Unless you want some DBZ Xenoverse “balancing” then canon is going to stay out of the discussion.
 
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It feels strange to me that people are classifying Samus as a heavy. I know she's heavier than Ike and ROB, but somehow she feels lighter than both of them. And I know why: her melee options are awful, and she's really floaty.

If it weren't for her actual weight, I would call her an "upper middleweight" like Yoshi.
----
Actually, this reminds me: I think some people are overvaluing the effect weight has on being combo food.

The reality is that fall speed has more of an effect on being vulnerable to combos than weight does. As seen in the knockback formula, weight actually affects scaled knockback; it doesn't really affect base knockback at all.

Look at Fox: despite him being incredibly light in all Smash games, he has really fast fall speed. And because of this, he is both combo food and easily finished.

Weight does have an effect on being combo'd, but fall speed has the greater effect between the two. Weight overall really is an advantage.
 
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The reality is that fall speed has more of an effect on being vulnerable to combos than weight does. As seen in the knockback formula, weight actually affects scaled knockback; it doesn't really affect base knockback at all.

Look at Fox: despite him being incredibly light in all Smash games, he has really fast fall speed. And because of this, he is both combo food and easily finished.

Weight does have an effect on being combo'd, but fall speed has the greater effect between the two. Weight overall really is an advantage.
Fox escapes combos easily though? And Bowser is a very slow faller yet the most easily combo'd in the game? Only Dedede is a small bit harder to combo than expected. Maybe you should play the game...
 

Quillion

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Fox escapes combos easily though? And Bowser is a very slow faller yet the most easily combo'd in the game? Only Dedede is a small bit harder to combo than expected. Maybe you should play the game...
Fox does have good reversals and a small hitbox. But it's still fairly easy to combo him anyway.

Trust me, I thought that weight makes you highly susceptible to combos, but most I've talked to say it's just a placebo. It's really fall speed that has the greatest effect. Weight has an effect, but not much.

I did forget the role having a large hitbox plays in being combo's, but weight's influence on such still is negligible in comparison.
 
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Yeah, weight, fall speed, and size all add to it. Generall for me I look more at if they're fast or not. Yoshi to me is borderline because he's heavy-ish but is fast. Samus is floaty but is still slow. I think we should be a bit broad and stop at Yoshi, who's kind of a question mark to be considered heavy. just imo.
Rob does seem like a pretty good place to stop.

Or, according to Kurogane, then we stop at Lucario:
(http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight)


SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT
1 Bowser 130
2 Donkey Kong 122
3 Dedede 119
4 Charizard 116
5 Ganondorf 113
HEAVYWEIGHT
6-7 Bowser Jr. 108
6-7 Samus 108
8-9 Ike 107
8-9 Wario 107
10 R.O.B. 106

11-13 Captain Falcon 104
11-13 Link 104
11-13 Yoshi 104
14 Ryu 103
15-16 Shulk 102
15-16 Megaman 102
17-20 Mii Swordspider (Default size) 100
17-20 Mii Brawler (Default size) 100
17-20 Mii Gunner (Default size) 100
17-20 Cloud 100
21 Lucario 99

MIDDLEWEIGHT
22-24 Corrin 98
22-24 Mario 98
(...)
 

Quillion

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Yeah, weight, fall speed, and size all add to it. Generall for me I look more at if they're fast or not. Yoshi to me is borderline because he's heavy-ish but is fast. Samus is floaty but is still slow. I think we should be a bit broad and stop at Yoshi, who's kind of a question mark to be considered heavy. just imo.
Rob does seem like a pretty good place to stop.
For me, "weight" isn't just knockback resistance or how slow they are. It's more how they feel when you play them. It's a bit hard to describe, but it comes from a combination of the characters' animations feeling like they have real momentum, how much the opponent flies back or otherwise feels "crushed", and knockback resistance (literal "weight").

It's the reason why I'm hesistant to call characters like Yoshi, Wario, and Samus "heavy", because even though they have literal "weight", they just don't feel heavy. Ike is lighter than Samus yet feels heavier than her. Shulk is lighter than Yoshi yet feels heavier than him.

If any of you are Soulsborne or Monster Hunter players, you know what I mean.
 
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For me, "weight" isn't just knockback resistance or how slow they are. It's more how they feel when you play them. It's a bit hard to describe, but it comes from a combination of the characters' animations feeling like they have real momentum, how much the opponent flies back or otherwise feels "crushed", and knockback resistance (literal "weight").

It's the reason why I'm hesistant to call characters like Yoshi, Wario, and Samus "heavy", because even though they have literal "weight", they just don't feel heavy. Ike is lighter than Samus yet feels heavier than her. Shulk is lighter than Yoshi yet feels heavier than him.

I get you, but that's kind of subjective. Samus still feels heavy when you get hit (and dont die):p
For simplicity at least here, how about we stop at Rob, and then we can still include Wario, Samus, Link, and maybe Yoshi as like 'borderline' heavies. I see a reason to still talk about them like they're heavy, but a lot of people might agree they don't feel like the other heavies. Captain falcon doesn't feel like it cuz he's so fast. That's how I think of them right now anyway.
 
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Unless varia samus was given a complete overhaul, she will never be as good as zss unless zss is nerfed to hell in ultimate, what samus needs to be top tier would be a way to rack up damage from afar quickly, but true to her nature her moves are slow and feel heavy, she also lacks fast projectiles outside of charge shot.
Samus doesn't require an overhaul, but some changes in her move set could help, including tweaking the properties of her attacks. If Samus' jab 1 had a different angle other than a 361° angle, it would connect and make it safer for her to deal with her opponent. If FAF was the same as in SSBM for Samus' tilts, it would be an improvement. You can see how fast Samus runs in SSB compared to how she runs now. She was faster than DK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Luigi, Mario, Ness, and Yoshi. Now DK, Kirby, Mario, and Yoshi are faster than her. Why were Captain Falcon, Fox, and Pikachu faster than Samus in SSB? I suspect CF was faster because he's a racer (although his vehicle is slower than sound and Samus is supersonic), Fox was faster because he's a fox, and Pikachu was faster because he's an electric-type.

Sakurai has said, "Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to." This was about Ridley and why he didn't add Ridley at the time. Still, if this is his philosophy about characters in general (hence the plural), it makes you wonder why Sakurai hasn't made Samus as good as she could be. She doesn't have to be faster than ZSS, but she should be faster than characters like Bowser and DK. Another issue I have is with Charge Shot. It takes 2.08 seconds to fully charge, although another source seems to say it takes longer. I just don't remember where I read that. One problem is Samus' animation. There's no need for her to swing her arm and throw it into her hand before shooting. That is impractical. She's never done this in any of her games.

#buffsamus
 

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Hi everyone. Please keep in mind that we all have different opinions and that people are allowed to state these differing opinions while in a conversation. Writing them off as stupid and insulting users for havin a differing opinion from yours if not constructive to lively and positive discussion. Please keep that in mind and we can all have a nice day.
 
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Samus doesn't require an overhaul, but some changes in her move set could help, including tweaking the properties of her attacks. If Samus' jab 1 had a different angle other than a 361° angle, it would connect and make it safer for her to deal with her opponent. If FAF was the same as in SSBM for Samus' tilts, it would be an improvement. You can see how fast Samus runs in SSB compared to how she runs now. She was faster than DK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Luigi, Mario, Ness, and Yoshi. Now DK, Kirby, Mario, and Yoshi are faster than her. Why were Captain Falcon, Fox, and Pikachu faster than Samus in SSB? I suspect CF was faster because he's a racer (although his vehicle is slower than sound and Samus is supersonic), Fox was faster because he's a fox, and Pikachu was faster because he's an electric-type.

Sakurai has said, "Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to." This was about Ridley and why he didn't add Ridley at the time. Still, if this is his philosophy about characters in general (hence the plural), it makes you wonder why Sakurai hasn't made Samus as good as she could be. She doesn't have to be faster than ZSS, but she should be faster than characters like Bowser and DK. Another issue I have is with Charge Shot. It takes 2.08 seconds to fully charge, although another source seems to say it takes longer. I just don't remember where I read that. One problem is Samus' animation. There's no need for her to swing her arm and throw it into her hand before shooting. That is impractical. She's never done this in any of her games.

#buffsamus
No she's meant to be bad

Hi everyone. Please keep in mind that we all have different opinions and that people are allowed to state these differing opinions while in a conversation. Writing them off as stupid and insulting users for havin a differing opinion from yours if not constructive to lively and positive discussion. Please keep that in mind and we can all have a nice day.
lolinfraction
 

Quillion

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Samus doesn't require an overhaul, but some changes in her move set could help, including tweaking the properties of her attacks. If Samus' jab 1 had a different angle other than a 361° angle, it would connect and make it safer for her to deal with her opponent. If FAF was the same as in SSBM for Samus' tilts, it would be an improvement. You can see how fast Samus runs in SSB compared to how she runs now. She was faster than DK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Luigi, Mario, Ness, and Yoshi. Now DK, Kirby, Mario, and Yoshi are faster than her. Why were Captain Falcon, Fox, and Pikachu faster than Samus in SSB? I suspect CF was faster because he's a racer (although his vehicle is slower than sound and Samus is supersonic), Fox was faster because he's a fox, and Pikachu was faster because he's an electric-type.

Sakurai has said, "Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to." This was about Ridley and why he didn't add Ridley at the time. Still, if this is his philosophy about characters in general (hence the plural), it makes you wonder why Sakurai hasn't made Samus as good as she could be. She doesn't have to be faster than ZSS, but she should be faster than characters like Bowser and DK. Another issue I have is with Charge Shot. It takes 2.08 seconds to fully charge, although another source seems to say it takes longer. I just don't remember where I read that. One problem is Samus' animation. There's no need for her to swing her arm and throw it into her hand before shooting. That is impractical. She's never done this in any of her games.

#buffsamus
No she's meant to be bad


lolinfraction
This is getting off the rails. Can you please discuss that on the Samus subforum, please?
 

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Actually, this reminds me: I think some people are overvaluing the effect weight has on being combo food.

The reality is that fall speed has more of an effect on being vulnerable to combos than weight does. As seen in the knockback formula, weight actually affects scaled knockback; it doesn't really affect base knockback at all.

Look at Fox: despite him being incredibly light in all Smash games, he has really fast fall speed. And because of this, he is both combo food and easily finished.

Weight does have an effect on being combo'd, but fall speed has the greater effect between the two. Weight overall really is an advantage.
It should probably be noted that gravity also plays a factor when it comes to a fighter's vertical endurance. Greninja is heavier than Little Mac AND falls faster than him, but because its gravity is much higher, its vertical endurance is worse, and as such, it can get KO'd vertically sooner than Little Mac.
 

Quillion

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It should probably be noted that gravity also plays a factor when it comes to a fighter's vertical endurance. Greninja is heavier than Little Mac AND falls faster than him, but because its gravity is much higher, its vertical endurance is worse, and as such, it can get KO'd vertically sooner than Little Mac.
Odd how the "vertical knockback normalization" formula does that to some of the heavier characters. It does stop Fox from surviving overly strong vertical finishers, though.
 
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This talk about heavies is interesting. I may add that other fighting games don't focus that much on mobility and open spaces like in Smash.
In the Smash series, you have a ton freedom of movement and most stages are big enough to allow to take advantage of that, so this is something that indirectly affects heavy characters in a negative way.
In a game like Pokken, heavies are scary powerhouses because once they pin you against the wall, they can keep you in that disadvantageous state for a while because the opponent has nowhere to run. That is not the case in Smash.
 

Quillion

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This talk about heavies is interesting. I may add that other fighting games don't focus that much on mobility and open spaces like in Smash.
In the Smash series, you have a ton freedom of movement and most stages are big enough to allow to take advantage of that, so this is something that indirectly affects heavy characters in a negative way.
In a game like Pokken, heavies are scary powerhouses because once they pin you against the wall, they can keep you in that disadvantageous state for a while because the opponent has nowhere to run. That is not the case in Smash.
The open spaces definitely are an issue, but that's the reason why the competitive-legal stages are small. I think that as Sakurai grows more in touch with the competitive community (slowly but surely), the Smash team makes a concerted effort to balance around these smaller stages as opposed to the bigger ones.

What you said about "pinning you against the wall" leads another issue, though. The equivalent to that in Smash is ledge trapping and edgeguarding... yet heavies in Smash don't really have good options for either. Edgeguarding for heavies is often too risky due to poor frame data or disadvantageous fall speeds. Ledge trapping tends to be similarly bad for the same reasons plus a lack of good projectiles.

Your thread is about heavy characters. Samus is a heavy character. :ohwell:
Sorry; it's your (one-sided) fight with MERPIS that I'm more worried about.

Thing is, it's really hard for me to think of Samus as being a heavy because her melee offense is weak, her finishers are poor, and she's floaty.

Even then, I think the problem is that the Smash team is trying to differentiate ZSS and Samus, but not giving Samus the strengths to compensate. ZSS is supposed to be the fast, rushdown-heavy combo monster, and Samus is supposed to be the impenetrable zoner with a wall of projectiles. But instead of strengthening Samus's projectile game, they've weakened her melee game with no compensation just to hype up ZSS's more.
 
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Sorry; it's your (one-sided) fight with MERPIS that I'm more worried about.

Thing is, it's really hard for me to think of Samus as being a heavy because her melee offense is weak, her finishers are poor, and she's floaty.

Even then, I think the problem is that the Smash team is trying to differentiate ZSS and Samus, but not giving Samus the strengths to compensate. ZSS is supposed to be the fast, rushdown-heavy combo monster, and Samus is supposed to be the impenetrable zoner with a wall of projectiles. But instead of strengthening Samus's projectile game, they've weakened her melee game with no compensation just to hype up ZSS's more.
There isn't a fight between MERPIS and I.

Just because it's hard for you to think of Samus as being heavy because her CQC sucks and because she's floaty doesn't make her less heavy. She's ranked with Bowser Jr. Samus' projectiles suck. It's easier to land and kill using Captain Falcon's f-air than it is with Samus' Charge Shot.
 

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The open spaces definitely are an issue, but that's the reason why the competitive-legal stages are small. I think that as Sakurai grows more in touch with the competitive community (slowly but surely), the Smash team makes a concerted effort to balance around these smaller stages as opposed to the bigger ones.

What you said about "pinning you against the wall" leads another issue, though. The equivalent to that in Smash is ledge trapping and edgeguarding... yet heavies in Smash don't really have good options for either. Edgeguarding for heavies is often too risky due to poor frame data or disadvantageous fall speeds. Ledge trapping tends to be similarly bad for the same reasons plus a lack of good projectiles.



Sorry; it's your (one-sided) fight with MERPIS that I'm more worried about.

Thing is, it's really hard for me to think of Samus as being a heavy because her melee offense is weak, her finishers are poor, and she's floaty.

Even then, I think the problem is that the Smash team is trying to differentiate ZSS and Samus, but not giving Samus the strengths to compensate. ZSS is supposed to be the fast, rushdown-heavy combo monster, and Samus is supposed to be the impenetrable zoner with a wall of projectiles. But instead of strengthening Samus's projectile game, they've weakened her melee game with no compensation just to hype up ZSS's more.
It feels like you're falling into the trap of heavy characters having to play or be designed a certain way, else they cease to be "heavy characters". We should try to avoid that. I'd rather all the heavies feel like they are unique experiences rather than the same archetype with only a few things added/subtracted.
 

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What makes you say that? Is that a serious response or not?
Whenever a long-ranged projectile is fired, players can easily get out of its path, pretty much rendering it useless; you'd have to fire the projectile at close range to have a better chance of landing it, but even then, the start-up lag before releasing the projectile can be just enough for the opponent to get his/her shield or reflector ready.

But what really hurts Charge Shot is that the full charge's knockback statistics are rather weak for an attack that deals 25% damage. So even if you do land the full charge, it will lack the knockback that's needed to KO fighters at lower damage percentages.
 

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There isn't a fight between MERPIS and I.

Just because it's hard for you to think of Samus as being heavy because her CQC sucks and because she's floaty doesn't make her less heavy. She's ranked with Bowser Jr. Samus' projectiles suck. It's easier to land and kill using Captain Falcon's f-air than it is with Samus' Charge Shot.
It feels like you're falling into the trap of heavy characters having to play or be designed a certain way, else they cease to be "heavy characters". We should try to avoid that. I'd rather all the heavies feel like they are unique experiences rather than the same archetype with only a few things added/subtracted.
About that: I think there's a fine line between "heavy characters" and "characters with high weight". I described what I believe this is in an earlier post:

For me, "weight" isn't just knockback resistance or how slow they are. It's more how they feel when you play them. It's a bit hard to describe, but it comes from a combination of the characters' animations feeling like they have real momentum, how much the opponent flies back or otherwise feels "crushed", and knockback resistance (literal "weight").

It's the reason why I'm hesistant to call characters like Yoshi, Wario, and Samus "heavy", because even though they have literal "weight", they just don't feel heavy. Ike is lighter than Samus yet feels heavier than her. Shulk is lighter than Yoshi yet feels heavier than him.

If any of you are Soulsborne or Monster Hunter players, you know what I mean.
I actually do think heavy characters need certain attributes to be considered to be "heavy characters". It's not enough that they just have "high weight". Their attacks need to feel heavy as well. Their attacks don't have to be telegraphably slow, nor do they have to do a 35+ damage; they just need a good sense of momentum and impact to their moves. Both the actual numbers and animations must contribute to this.

Like I said before, I feel Melee Ganondorf and Smash 4 DK are the best-designed heavies in the series: they have high weight and have heavy hits, but have useful all-purpose tools mixed in with their heavy hits. As Mario & Sonic Guy Mario & Sonic Guy said, Samus's attacks, melee and projectile alike, just don't feel heavy at all. And you can't just make Chansey a Jigglypuff Echo, give her high weight, barely change her frame data, damage, and knockback values, and call her a heavy character, you get what I'm saying?

Necro'lic Necro'lic alone: Otherwise, I agree with you. I was just trying to apply what Ryu Myuutsu Ryu Myuutsu said about how heavies in Pokkén can pin opponents into a disadvantageous vortex and commented that characters in Smash do this by putting opponents in a recovery state. I do think a few heavies can stand to have better edgeguarding and ledge trapping options. Dedede kinda has his Gordo Toss, but even that attack can be improved for better options. Bowser and Charizard's Neutral B would be good ledge trappers if their endlag wasn't so bad.
 
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There isn't a fight between MERPIS and I.

Just because it's hard for you to think of Samus as being heavy because her CQC sucks and because she's floaty doesn't make her less heavy. She's ranked with Bowser Jr. Samus' projectiles suck. It's easier to land and kill using Captain Falcon's f-air than it is with Samus' Charge Shot.
who said that I said samus wasnt heavy, she wears a frigging bionic suit of power armor of course she’s heavy, but ye her CQC and camp both suck
 

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And you can't just make Chansey a Jigglypuff Echo, give her high weight, barely change her frame data, damage, and knockback values, and call her a heavy character, you get what I'm saying?
I should probably mention that there's no way that Chansey would be Jigglypuff's Echo Fighter if its attributes are different.
 
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What makes you say that? Is that a serious response or not?
I main Samus. I see Captain Falcon players land f-air much easier. Charge Shot takes 2.08 seconds to charge.

About that: I think there's a fine line between "heavy characters" and "characters with high weight". I described what I believe this is in an earlier post:
Ike feels heavy due to a number of factors such as fall speed and gravity. He hits harder, which could be attributed to knock-back. By this point, you're not even referring to just weight. The thing about video games is they don't follow physical law. (The game engine is subject to physical law, but a video game character lacks something like density.) You'd expect a heavy character to fall faster, although that's not necessarily the case. So you'll need to clarify what you mean in your first post for future readers to avoid confusion.
 
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