What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?

Teeb147

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MERPIS MERPIS you're like a slippery slope incarnated. I can't tell if it's your sense of humour or not lol.

Cuz you know.. the ideal is for tiers to not exist, for all fighters to be equally able to win, and yet all be diverse. Necrolic was touching on that, though also wants more standardization, which I don't.. though everyone having the same jumpsquat frames is fine with me. :)
Though that said, some people like playing with underdogs. Thankfully It's pretty much impossible to balance a game perfectly, so it'll happen.
 

MERPIS

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MERPIS MERPIS you're like a slippery slope incarnated. I can't tell if it's your sense of humour or not lol.

Cuz you know.. the ideal is for tiers to not exist, for all fighters to be equally able to win, and yet all be diverse. Necrolic was touching on that, though also wants more standardization, which I don't.. though everyone having the same jumpsquat frames is fine with me. :)
Though that said, some people like playing with underdogs. Thankfully It's pretty much impossible to balance a game perfectly, so it'll happen.
I tried

Frankly, an up aerial that KOs under 105% would be more fitting for characters like Zelda and Ike, since their start-up lag balances out that KO power. Wario's up aerial hits on frame 8, which sort of feels too early for the attack to KO THAT early. On the other hand, Bowser's up aerial hits on frame 9, and is among the strongest up aerials in Smash 3DS / Wii U, KOing Mario at 105% damage if he's on Battlefield's center platform.

For another comparison, Donkey Kong's up aerial KOs Mario at some point after 115% damage if he's on Battlefield's center platform, and it hits on frame 6. Oddly, Ness's up aerial KOs sooner, despite dealing just as much damage as Donkey Kong's up aerial. It just goes to show how BKB and KBG differences can influence how quickly a hitbox can KO.
all of those characters have other great options to kill, wario doesn't outside of waft
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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what if that's because they aren't good?
It's much better than what the developers did to Smash Wii U Wario.

Anyway, since none of us are Nintendo developers, we have no control over what will happen to the veterans. All that we can really do is hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.
 

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at that point for might as well just make every character a direct mario clone and call it a day
Not that far, but yeah. It's important to have a center of balance. Mario isn't that balance right now but he IS one of the few characters who's actually well designed (fun to play as/against). He has a healthy combination of attack, shield, and grab. He also has strong and weak points (truthfully he's too good but it doesn't matter right now against the OP top tiers and disjoint spam). The only thing I don't like is how his cape can kill a lot of char's ludicrously easily (again, most of the top tiers are just immune).

Bowser's uAir is stronger than other characters' like DK because it's much harder to connect (outside of uThrow). Bowser's air speed is the lowest among the characters we compared, and the hitbox is how shall I say... Limited. Of all the superheavies I'd consider Bowser's uAir to be the worst, next to DK's (neither are bad though). And DK deserves more power than Wario because DK is combo food.

It just occurred to me that because I usually play 3DS For Glory, my vertical kill moves should be less effective due to the larger stages and lack of platforms. No wonder my Koo-Pa fails to kill so often. The damage requirements must be less strict on Wii U.
 
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Necro'lic

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Not that far, but yeah. It's important to have a center of balance. Mario isn't that balance right now but he IS one of the few characters who's actually well designed (fun to play as/against). He has a healthy combination of attack, shield, and grab. He also has strong and weak points (truthfully he's too good but it doesn't matter right now against the OP top tiers and disjoint spam). The only thing I don't like is how his cape can kill a lot of char's ludicrously easily (again, most of the top tiers are just immune).

Bowser's uAir is stronger than other characters' like DK because it's much harder to connect (outside of uThrow). Bowser's air speed is the lowest among the characters we compared, and the hitbox is how shall I say... Limited. Of all the superheavies I'd consider Bowser's uAir to be the worst, next to DK's (not bad though). And DK deserves more power than Wario because DK is combo food.

It just occurred to me that because I usually play 3DS For Glory, my vertical kill moves should be less effective due to the larger stages and lack of platforms. No wonder my Koo-Pa fails to kill so often. The damage requirements must be less strict on Wii U.
MERPIS MERPIS Just look at this article from David Sirlin and you'll see what me and Darches Darches are talking about here. Basically the idea is to give all characters very basic universal tools in order to potentially stop stupid imbalanced stuff before it happens, and from there, since you have failsafes in place, go insane with character design. Other games, like MOBAs, do this system well, especially Dota, since it never forgets what the strengths and weaknesses of the heroes are. Same with this discussion.

Do we want Bowser to have easy combos? If he was designed not to, then we shouldn't do it. Was he designed to be overwhelming offensively as well as a grappler? Then buff his grab game, his advantage state, and his ability to close distance.

Do we want DK to have a lot of killing blows that don't really combo? Considering his design in Smash4 and Ultimate, I don't think that's a good idea. Should he be a combo-centric character with a bit of utility, speed, pressure, and grappling with a big weakness of lack of recovery and bad disadvantage state? Cool, don't buff his recovery or decrease his weight, and give him a few missing tools from that arsenal should you wish.

It all depends on what you want the character to be. This is why whenever I try to do a balancing exercise, the very first thing I do is present the strengths and weaknesses that I want this character to have. I did this years ago with Smash 4 with Zelda, Robin, and Bowser. I was clinically depressed at the time in college (a horrible combination :c), so I didn't finish my balancing project, but you can see the system I worked with, and I think the first thing we need to ask is "what do we want each specific heavy character to be?"
 

Teeb147

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"what do we want each specific heavy character to be?"
It's a basic question that everyone should start with before they say everything they want for a character. But an important part that you touched a bit upon, is what are they 'meant' to be. What are they iconically known for, what does nintendo want them to be, and what would make sense for them. Then the rest is more up to change.

But also, that's a hard question if you're asking it here, or of fans, because we all have different wants. I hate when people claim their personal wants as if that's what a character should be, and I've seen quite a bit of it in this thread. You need to be a bit open, to include what others might like too.
No problem playing with ideas though :) Can be fun to put possible stuff out there.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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In terms of what people want, I can pretty much put up the following for Yoshi...
  • Pros
    • Slightly above average weight.
    • Good overall mobility, including one of the best air speed statistics.
    • Most normal attacks are quick to hit, with a lot of them hitting before frame 8; the neutral attack's first hit hits on frame 2.
    • D-tilt can potentially trip fighters, giving Yoshi a chance to deliver a follow-up attack against certain opponents.
    • Down aerial is a strong damage builder, with the final hit being a deceptively strong meteor smash; the final hit only deals 1% damage, but its knockback stats are quite high. There's also a landing hitbox with transcendent priority that can get fighters off of Yoshi's face.
    • Grab is long-ranged, and fairly quick to execute (grab hitboxes activate on frame 8).
  • Cons
    • Very few attacks deal 20% or more damage, so Yoshi is not much of a heavy hitter.
    • Against Mario, most of Yoshi's attacks won't start KOing him until he goes above 100% damage.
    • Yoshi's throws don't have the greatest KO power, often requiring Yoshi to be near stage edges if he wants to make KOs with the f-throw or b-throw.
    • Only one of Yoshi's throws can be used to set up a follow-up attack, which is his d-throw.
    • As damaging as the down aerial might be, its start-up lag is rather long, and it only takes away approx. 86% of a shield's maximum HP; the attack can't shatter full shields, making it punishable if the opponent blocks every hit.
    • Yoshi has to resort to Egg Throw for recovery, which doesn't cover as much distance as the mid-air jump.
Now, other people may have ideas on how Yoshi should work, but the above information is simply how I look at Yoshi.
 
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Teeb147

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In terms of what people want, I can pretty much put up the following for Yoshi...
  • Pros
    • Slightly above average weight.
    • Good overall mobility, including one of the best air speed statistics.
    • Most normal attacks are quick to hit, with a lot of them hitting before frame 8; the neutral attack's first hit hits on frame 2.
    • D-tilt can potentially trip fighters, giving Yoshi a chance to deliver a follow-up attack against certain opponents.
    • Down aerial is a strong damage builder, with the final hit being a deceptively strong meteor smash; the final hit only deals 1% damage, but its knockback stats are quite high. There's also a landing hitbox with transcendent priority that can get fighters off of Yoshi's face.
    • Grab is long-ranged, and fairly quick to execute (grab hitboxes activate on frame 8).
  • Cons
    • Very few attacks deal 20% or more damage, so Yoshi is not much of a heavy hitter.
    • Against Mario, most of Yoshi's attacks won't start KOing him until he goes above 100% damage.
    • Yoshi's throws don't have the greatest KO power, often requiring Yoshi to be near stage edges if he wants to make KOs with the f-throw or b-throw.
    • Only one of Yoshi's throws can be used to set up a follow-up attack, which is his d-throw.
    • As damaging as the down aerial might be, its start-up lag is rather long, and it only takes away approx. 86% of a shield's maximum HP; the attack can't shatter full shields, making it punishable if the opponent blocks every hit.
    • Yoshi has to resort to Egg Throw for recovery, which doesn't cover as much distance as the mid-air jump.
Now, other people may have ideas on how Yoshi should work, but the above information is simply how I look at Yoshi.
I like to see this kind of stuff :)
Yoshi's grab is slow though. It's his dash grab that's fast.
And there's lots more to say about Yoshi. I hardly use his f-tilt, d-tilt has more range and is faster. f-tilt could be changed somehow.
Jab is really good, comes out fast and has followups.
Also, side b has always been kind of useless. there's a chance to change it for something useful.
His landing lag isn't too bad and he can slide on the ground a bit when landing his attacks to be safer so he's got decent stuff going.
 
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Necro'lic

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It's a basic question that everyone should start with before they say everything they want for a character. But an important part that you touched a bit upon, is what are they 'meant' to be. What are they iconically known for, what does nintendo want them to be, and what would make sense for them. Then the rest is more up to change.

But also, that's a hard question if you're asking it here, or of fans, because we all have different wants. I hate when people claim their personal wants as if that's what a character should be, and I've seen quite a bit of it in this thread. You need to be a bit open, to include what others might like too.
No problem playing with ideas though :) Can be fun to put possible stuff out there.
No, you are definitely right, but I think the wishes of the developer come before the wishes of the fans, at least in this particular aspect. Sure, you can add some things that fans want IF it doesn't mess with the integrity of the design of the character, but otherwise, I'd have to go with the general idea of what these characters have been good at historically. The thing is that if it isn't very clear-cut, then some fan tweaking should be in order, if only to give a coherent idea of your character's design.

But going by my style of the Balance Philosophy series, this is how I would put the heavies in terms of strengths and weaknesses:

Donkey Kong :ultdk:

Purpose: All-around bruiser/Low disadvantage

Strengths should be:

High range and priority for pressure
Many shield breaking options
Fast movement and above average frame data
Semi-threatening grab game
High amount of combo potential

Weaknesses should be:

Lacks projectiles
Can be comboed very easily
Lack of recovery
Below average damage for heavy

-----------------

Samus:ultsamus:

Purpose: Zoner/Edgeguarder/High aerial pressure/Hard to take stocks

Strengths should be:

High damage arsenal of projectiles
Great aerial zoning capability
High aerial maneuverability
Very high priority to get out of disadvantage

Weaknesses should be:

Low damage output in neutral
Mediocre combo potential
Low killing potential
Mediocre grab

-------------------

Bowser:ultbowser:

Purpose: Overbearing neutral/Grappler/Close range stage controller/Very poor disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Fast movement speed
Threatening grab
High damage per hit
High priority and some armor
High kill potential
High shield pressure

Weaknesses should be:

High endlag
Terrible frame data
Bad recovery
Easy to combo

------------------
Ganondorf :ultganondorf:

Purpose: Combo centric bruiser/Scary advantage/Low aerial capability

Strengths should be:

Many combo starters
High killing potential
High combo damage
Tech chase ability


Weaknesses should be:

Below average movespeed
Lacks projectiles
Low aerial movement
Low recovery

-------------------

Wario :ultwario:

Purpose: Trickster/Hit and Run/Aerial Fighter/High commitment

Strengths should be:

High air speed and air combo ability
Above average ground mobility
Low endlag
High damage combos
Stage control utility

Weaknesses should be:

Low range
Low priority
Below average kill confirm
Below average shield pressure

-------------------

Ike :ultike:

Purpose: Neutral based bruiser/Low recovery

Strengths should be:

High range
High shield pressure
Above average aerial pressure
Above average combo ability
High safety on whiff
Above average killing ability

Weaknesses should be:

Lacks projectiles
Low priority
Below average movespeed
Weak grab game
Predictable recovery
Below average disadvantage state

-------------------

Charizard :ultpokemontrainer:
King Dedede :ultkingdedede:
R.O.B :ultrob:
Bowser Jr. :ultbowserjr:
Ridley :ultridley:
Or at least the first half of them. Note that these are rough outlines, but I'm working from a developer's standpoint of "what do I want this character to be?"
 

Darches

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I dunno about the top tiers, but Yoshi's upB is actually a great recovery vs heavies since it's severely disjointed. He actually counters Bowser pretty hard. His grab release is very effective for racking damage against heavies or becoming a kill combo with a read.

TBH I think Bowser would make more sense as a traditional heavy grappler with slower speed but tools to cut through projectiles. I tried spamming his upB to obliterate Diddy's bananas but it just had too much rebound lag. :c

I'm very interested in what Ridley will do...
 
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Teeb147

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That's true, not many, but heavy characters do higher. Look at even Bowser's tilts and aerials.

But Yoshi isn't slow like the others, he has the fastest air speed, so I don't know if higher damage is called for.
 

Quillion

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Donkey Kong :ultdk:

Purpose: All-around bruiser/Low disadvantage

Strengths should be:

High range and priority for pressure
Many shield breaking options
Fast movement and above average frame data
Semi-threatening grab game
High amount of combo potential

Weaknesses should be:

Lacks projectiles
Can be comboed very easily
Lack of recovery
Below average damage for heavy

-----------------

Samus:ultsamus:

Purpose: Zoner/Edgeguarder/High aerial pressure/Hard to take stocks

Strengths should be:

High damage arsenal of projectiles
Great aerial zoning capability
High aerial maneuverability
Very high priority to get out of disadvantage

Weaknesses should be:

Low damage output in neutral
Mediocre combo potential
Low killing potential
Mediocre grab

-------------------

Bowser:ultbowser:

Purpose: Overbearing neutral/Grappler/Close range stage controller/Very poor disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Fast movement speed
Threatening grab
High damage per hit
High priority and some armor
High kill potential
High shield pressure

Weaknesses should be:

High endlag
Terrible frame data
Bad recovery
Easy to combo

------------------
Ganondorf :ultganondorf:

Purpose: Combo centric bruiser/Scary advantage/Low aerial capability

Strengths should be:

Many combo starters
High killing potential
High combo damage
Tech chase ability


Weaknesses should be:

Below average movespeed
Lacks projectiles
Low aerial movement
Low recovery

-------------------

Wario:ultwario:

Purpose: Trickster/Hit and Run/Aerial Fighter/High commitment

Strengths should be:

High air speed and air combo ability
Above average ground mobility
Low endlag
High damage combos
Stage control utility

Weaknesses should be:

Low range
Low priority
Below average kill confirm
Below average shield pressure

-------------------

Ike :ultike:

Purpose: Neutral based bruiser/Low recovery

Strengths should be:

High range
High shield pressure
Above average aerial pressure
Above average combo ability
High safety on whiff
Above average killing ability

Weaknesses should be:

Lacks projectiles
Low priority
Below average movespeed
Weak grab game
Predictable recovery
Below average disadvantage state

-------------------

Charizard :ultpokemontrainer:
King Dedede :ultkingdedede:
R.O.B :ultrob:
Bowser Jr. :ultbowserjr:
Ridley :ultridley:

Necro'lic Necro'lic : I agree with most of your assessments, but I'm not so sure about what you said about Bowser and Ganondorf.

They seem to be based mainly on their Melee incarnations, when they've been changed greatly since then. Personally, I would switch them with Bowser being the combo-focused heavy and Ganondorf being the neutral-focused heavy.

And even then, I don't think Bowser should be too combo focused, as ROB is at least intended to be the biggest combo monster among the heavies thanks to his multitude of fast, weak moves.
----
On the topic of Yoshi, I wouldn't classify him as a heavy. I'd put him in the middleweights class, though he is in the above-average end of the crowd.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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let me ask you, which single attack, not including dancing blade or projectiles, used by any character in this entire game does over 20%?
There are some standard attacks that deal more than 20% damage with a single hit; Bowser's uncharged f-smash deals 23% damage; Little Mac's uncharged u-smash deals 21% damage when clean.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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ok let me rephrase,
what actually usable attack does more than 20%, not including dancing blade or projectiles?
I don't know what your criteria is for an attack to be usable, so I'll just state that almost any attack is usable if you can outwit your opponent, or even catch your opponent off-guard.
 

Necro'lic

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Donkey Kong :ultdk:

Purpose: All-around bruiser/Low disadvantage

Strengths should be:

High range and priority for pressure
Many shield breaking options
Fast movement and above average frame data
Semi-threatening grab game
High amount of combo potential

Weaknesses should be:

Lacks projectiles
Can be comboed very easily
Lack of recovery
Below average damage for heavy

-----------------

Samus:ultsamus:

Purpose: Zoner/Edgeguarder/High aerial pressure/Hard to take stocks

Strengths should be:

High damage arsenal of projectiles
Great aerial zoning capability
High aerial maneuverability
Very high priority to get out of disadvantage

Weaknesses should be:

Low damage output in neutral
Mediocre combo potential
Low killing potential
Mediocre grab

-------------------

Bowser:ultbowser:

Purpose: Overbearing neutral/Grappler/Close range stage controller/Very poor disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Fast movement speed
Threatening grab
High damage per hit
High priority and some armor
High kill potential
High shield pressure

Weaknesses should be:

High endlag
Terrible frame data
Bad recovery
Easy to combo

------------------
Ganondorf :ultganondorf:

Purpose: Combo centric bruiser/Scary advantage/Low aerial capability

Strengths should be:

Many combo starters
High killing potential
High combo damage
Tech chase ability


Weaknesses should be:

Below average movespeed
Lacks projectiles
Low aerial movement
Low recovery

-------------------

Wario:ultwario:

Purpose: Trickster/Hit and Run/Aerial Fighter/High commitment

Strengths should be:

High air speed and air combo ability
Above average ground mobility
Low endlag
High damage combos
Stage control utility

Weaknesses should be:

Low range
Low priority
Below average kill confirm
Below average shield pressure

-------------------

Ike :ultike:

Purpose: Neutral based bruiser/Low recovery

Strengths should be:

High range
High shield pressure
Above average aerial pressure
Above average combo ability
High safety on whiff
Above average killing ability

Weaknesses should be:

Lacks projectiles
Low priority
Below average movespeed
Weak grab game
Predictable recovery
Below average disadvantage state

-------------------

Charizard :ultpokemontrainer:
King Dedede :ultkingdedede:
R.O.B :ultrob:
Bowser Jr. :ultbowserjr:
Ridley :ultridley:

Necro'lic Necro'lic : I agree with most of your assessments, but I'm not so sure about what you said about Bowser and Ganondorf.

They seem to be based mainly on their Melee incarnations, when they've been changed greatly since then. Personally, I would switch them with Bowser being the combo-focused heavy and Ganondorf being the neutral-focused heavy.

And even then, I don't think Bowser should be too combo focused, as ROB is at least intended to be the biggest combo monster among the heavies thanks to his multitude of fast, weak moves.
----
On the topic of Yoshi, I wouldn't classify him as a heavy. I'd put him in the middleweights class, though he is in the above-average end of the crowd.
I'm glad you at least agree with the others lol.

Personally, I like Bowser as the more neutral focused one because it feels more like a boss battle, where you can get many hits off, but he just needs three or four and you are suddenly on even footing. It just feels right for the imposing turtle monster king right?

As for Ganon, we need a combo-centric heavy, and I think he would fit the bill fine, even if we gave him more magical attacks. And unlike R.O.B, he wouldn't have a lick of zoning potential, meaning his entire focus would be high damage combos and tech chases while he would be mediocre at everything else. R.O.B is more mellowed out, and I think a distinction in playstyle like that is important. Think of R.O.B as a heavy version of Fox while my ideal Ganon would be a heavy form of Sheik.

EDIT: Might as well do the ideas for the other heavies while I have them in my head:

Charizard :ultpokemontrainer:

Purpose: Stage control/High recovery/Half-Grappler/Bad neutral

Strengths should be:

Very high aerial and ground movement
Situationally dangerous grabs
Very high kill potential
High range and medium priority

Weaknesses should be:

Poor shield pressure
Low damage poking tools
Predictable recovery
Middling aerial pressure

-----------------

King Dedede :ultkingdedede:

Purpose: Trapper/Highly defensive neutral/Average comboer/Very poor disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Proficiency in creating traps for opponents
Very high range and very high priority
Above average shield damage
Defensive based combo starters
High overall damage pokes

Weaknesses should be:

Very easy to combo
Low aerial and ground mobility
Traps can be countered
Below average kill options

----------------

R.O.B :ultrob:

Purpose: Partial zoner/Trapper/Combo based/Middling neutral/Requires charge

Strengths should be:

Potent projectiles
Potent trapping capability
Good aerial mobility and combo potential
Combo starting throws

Weaknesses should be:

Zoning based on long charge times
Highly temporary traps
Lower than average priority and damage
Higher than average endlag

--------------------

Bowser Jr. :ultbowserjr:

Purpose: Stage controller/Trade winner/Poor neutral

Strengths should be:

Above average aerial mobility
Long distance and long lasting projectiles
Long lasting hitboxes
High transcendent priority
Above average kill potential

Weaknesses should be:

High endlag
Low shield pressure
Easy to combo
Highly committal recovery and attacks

----------------

Ridley :ultridley:

Purpose: Edgeguarder/Grappler/Low disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Great aerial control
Easily makes edgeguarding situations
Threatening grabs
Highly potent aerials

Weaknesses should be:

Poor ground priority
Poor combo ability
Easily comboed
Ridley was a bit difficult, as well as Charizard with the removal of his Rock Smash, and as you can see on my profile, I main Char in Smash 4, so that's a whole new world for me lol.
 
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MERPIS

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King Dedede

Purpose: Trapper/Highly defensive neutral/Average comboer/Very poor disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Proficiency in creating traps for opponents
Very high range and very high priority
Above average shield damage
Defensive based combo starters
High overall damage pokes

Weaknesses should be:

Very easy to combo
Low aerial and ground mobility
Traps can be countered
Below average kill options

:ultwario:
Strengths should be:

High air speed and air combo ability
Above average ground mobility
Low endlag
High damage combos
Stage control utility

Weaknesses should be:

Low range
Low priority
Below average kill confirm
Below average shield pressure
Screw that noise, they're heavies jesus H they need kill power to thrive and unless you give wario in particular, stupidly dumb combos then the won't be able to kill at all
 
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Necro'lic

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Screw that noise, they're heavies jesus H they need kill power to thrive and unless you give wario in particular, stupidly dumb combos then the won't be able to kill at all
They don't need kill power, or at least super high kill power. It's not a requirement that a heavy character kill comfortably at 80% with their easy kill confirms.

Plus, you forget that both have other tools they can use to trap or trick their opponents. It's just they are centralized around them, so they don't need the kill power too.

I'm not sure why you called these two out and not Samus.
 

Quillion

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Charizard:ultpokemontrainer:

Purpose: Stage control/High recovery/Half-Grappler/Bad neutral

Strengths should be:

Very high aerial and ground movement
Situationally dangerous grabs
Very high kill potential
High range and medium priority

Weaknesses should be:

Poor shield pressure
Low damage poking tools
Predictable recovery
Middling aerial pressure

-----------------

King Dedede:ultkingdedede:

Purpose: Trapper/Highly defensive neutral/Average comboer/Very poor disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Proficiency in creating traps for opponents
Very high range and very high priority
Above average shield damage
Defensive based combo starters
High overall damage pokes

Weaknesses should be:

Very easy to combo
Low aerial and ground mobility
Traps can be countered
Below average kill options

----------------

R.O.B:ultrob:

Purpose: Partial zoner/Trapper/Combo based/Middling neutral/Requires charge

Strengths should be:

Potent projectiles
Potent trapping capability
Good aerial mobility and combo potential
Combo starting throws

Weaknesses should be:

Zoning based on long charge times
Highly temporary traps
Lower than average priority and damage
Higher than average endlag

--------------------

Bowser Jr.:ultbowserjr:

Purpose: Stage controller/Trade winner/Poor neutral

Strengths should be:

Above average aerial mobility
Long distance and long lasting projectiles
Long lasting hitboxes
High transcendent priority
Above average kill potential

Weaknesses should be:

High endlag
Low shield pressure
Easy to combo
Highly committal recovery and attacks

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Ridley:ultridley:

Purpose: Edgeguarder/Grappler/Low disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Great aerial control
Easily makes edgeguarding situations
Threatening grabs
Highly potent aerials

Weaknesses should be:

Poor ground priority
Poor combo ability
Easily comboed

Necro'lic Necro'lic : I see your point with Bowser, but why can't Ganondorf have that distinction of "feeling like a boss battle"?

If they continue with their trend of giving him more canon moves (as much as I miss him not using his sword), it would fit better for Ganondorf to act like a neutral-focused boss battle.

Bowser's new portrayal is more agile and deceptively fast, and his attacks have been sped up to reflect this. It makes more sense he would be a heavy with a bit more combo potential.
----
On the topic of your other heavy balance ideas, I certainly love the idea of making Charizard and Ridley the stage controllers thanks to their multi-jumps.

But I'm not sure about making Dedede emphasize combos over finishing. If anything, he should be more like current Ike: a few combos, but has the range to poke and sweeping, high-damage finishers (that aren't telegraphably slow).
 

MERPIS

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They don't need kill power, or at least super high kill power. It's not a requirement that a heavy character kill comfortably at 80% with their easy kill confirms.

Plus, you forget that both have other tools they can use to trap or trick their opponents. It's just they are centralized around them, so they don't need the kill power too.

I'm not sure why you called these two out and not Samus.
I honestly couldn't care less about samus, to me she's just a useless character anyways
 

Necro'lic

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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Charizard:ultpokemontrainer:

Purpose: Stage control/High recovery/Half-Grappler/Bad neutral

Strengths should be:

Very high aerial and ground movement
Situationally dangerous grabs
Very high kill potential
High range and medium priority

Weaknesses should be:

Poor shield pressure
Low damage poking tools
Predictable recovery
Middling aerial pressure

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King Dedede:ultkingdedede:

Purpose: Trapper/Highly defensive neutral/Average comboer/Very poor disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Proficiency in creating traps for opponents
Very high range and very high priority
Above average shield damage
Defensive based combo starters
High overall damage pokes

Weaknesses should be:

Very easy to combo
Low aerial and ground mobility
Traps can be countered
Below average kill options

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R.O.B:ultrob:

Purpose: Partial zoner/Trapper/Combo based/Middling neutral/Requires charge

Strengths should be:

Potent projectiles
Potent trapping capability
Good aerial mobility and combo potential
Combo starting throws

Weaknesses should be:

Zoning based on long charge times
Highly temporary traps
Lower than average priority and damage
Higher than average endlag

--------------------

Bowser Jr.:ultbowserjr:

Purpose: Stage controller/Trade winner/Poor neutral

Strengths should be:

Above average aerial mobility
Long distance and long lasting projectiles
Long lasting hitboxes
High transcendent priority
Above average kill potential

Weaknesses should be:

High endlag
Low shield pressure
Easy to combo
Highly committal recovery and attacks

----------------

Ridley:ultridley:

Purpose: Edgeguarder/Grappler/Low disadvantage

Strengths should be:

Great aerial control
Easily makes edgeguarding situations
Threatening grabs
Highly potent aerials

Weaknesses should be:

Poor ground priority
Poor combo ability
Easily comboed

Necro'lic Necro'lic : I see your point with Bowser, but why can't Ganondorf have that distinction of "feeling like a boss battle"?

If they continue with their trend of giving him more canon moves (as much as I miss him not using his sword), it would fit better for Ganondorf to act like a neutral-focused boss battle.

Bowser's new portrayal is more agile and deceptively fast, and his attacks have been sped up to reflect this. It makes more sense he would be a heavy with a bit more combo potential.
----
On the topic of your other heavy balance ideas, I certainly love the idea of making Charizard and Ridley the stage controllers thanks to their multi-jumps.

But I'm not sure about making Dedede emphasize combos over finishing. If anything, he should be more like current Ike: a few combos, but has the range to poke and sweeping, high-damage finishers (that aren't telegraphably slow).
While I do see your point with Ganon, I still think a more combo centric heavy would be nice, and none of the other heavies seem to fit that bill really while he can.

As for Dedede, It's not that his kill options are bad at killing, but that they lack the ability to be used freely, meaning he will have to use them in conjunction with his traps to really get kills. Plus, he doesn't emphasize combos really. He's just average at them. His main idea was being this trapper+hyper defensive type of character that would be hard to get into. You remember my priority idea where the longer range characters have low priority while the short range ones have higher? Dedede would buck the trend and have high range AND priority, making him a defensive monster. At least until someone got into him and then the combos would start.

I honestly couldn't care less about samus, to me she's just a useless character anyways
MERPIS MERPIS Well then you're missing the point of this exercise and discussion.
 
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MERPIS

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While I do see your point with Ganon, I still think a more combo centric heavy would be nice, and none of the other heavies seem to fit that bill really while he can.

As for Dedede, It's not that his kill options are bad at killing, but that they lack the ability to be used freely, meaning he will have to use them in conjunction with his traps to really get kills. Plus, he doesn't emphasize combos really. He's just average at them. His main idea was being this trapper+hyper defensive type of character that would be hard to get into. You remember my priority idea where the longer range characters have low priority while the short range ones have higher? Dedede would buck the trend and have high range AND priority, making him a defensive monster. At least until someone got into him and then the combos would start.



MERPIS MERPIS Well then you're missing the point of this exercise and discussion.
It's not about missing the so called "point" of such a thing, its about calling out the bad changes, and samus being useless
Wario needs good kill power around the 110 or 120 range, not stupid but not trash either, wario is meant to hit harder than mario since he's a heavy and all
 

Quillion

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,225
While I do see your point with Ganon, I still think a more combo centric heavy would be nice, and none of the other heavies seem to fit that bill really while he can.
Again, there's ROB, but then again he lacks the finishing options that makes heavies feel, well... heavy.

As for Dedede, It's not that his kill options are bad at killing, but that they lack the ability to be used freely, meaning he will have to use them in conjunction with his traps to really get kills. Plus, he doesn't emphasize combos really. He's just average at them. His main idea was being this trapper+hyper defensive type of character that would be hard to get into. You remember my priority idea where the longer range characters have low priority while the short range ones have higher? Dedede would buck the trend and have high range AND priority, making him a defensive monster. At least until someone got into him and then the combos would start.
So like a heavy Olimar, right? I see where you're coming from now.

To help with that, they really should combine his Brawl Side-B with his Smash 4 Side-B. He throws Gordos out quickly, they can't be reflected, and they can be angled, but they would be a bit weaker to compensate.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

The Cute Cosmic Protector
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On the topic of your other heavy balance ideas, I certainly love the idea of making Charizard and Ridley the stage controllers thanks to their multi-jumps.

But I'm not sure about making Dedede emphasize combos over finishing. If anything, he should be more like current Ike: a few combos, but has the range to poke and sweeping, high-damage finishers (that aren't telegraphably slow).
I too feel that for someone who uses a heavy mechanical hammer, Dedede needs to have the KO power to compensate for the amount of lag his attacks have. For starters, the u-smash definitely needs damage improvements so that it rivals Bowser's u-smash in KO capabilities. The same would also apply to the d-smash, as it looks like it would pack a good punch.

Even Dedede's aerials need better knockback statistics so that he can't be punished so easily at low damage percentages.

As for the f-tilt, the head should be able to autolink during the looping hit portion of the attack, while the final hit deals greater damage so that it becomes capable of making KOs.

But one of the biggest things that Dedede needs is armor for his dash attack and f-smash, so that way, he can't be interrupted by very weak hits.
 

Teeb147

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Messages
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It's not about missing the so called "point" of such a thing, its about calling out the bad changes, and samus being useless
Wario needs good kill power around the 110 or 120 range, not stupid but not trash either, wario is meant to hit harder than mario since he's a heavy and all
Double standard? Obviously you like Wario. Anyway, I bet he'll be decent this time around.
They still have time to change samus. Really, it's make no sense for her armored version to be not as good as zero-suit. The charge shot change is nice, now let's hope more changes so it's also a good character with some heavy-like stuff.
 

MERPIS

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Double standard? Obviously you like Wario. Anyway, I bet he'll be decent this time around.
They still have time to change samus. Really, it's make no sense for her armored version to be not as good as zero-suit. The charge shot change is nice, now let's hope more changes so it's also a good character with some heavy-like stuff.
I used to main wario he was one of my best characters, I love the dude's stats and aesthetic that he has going on, he's small, heavy but also fast as hell with really fast attacks for a heavy weight, also he was super funny to use and his bike was so fun to use as well. But his lack of any good kill power really screwed him over in the tier lists, but he's kinda one of those characters where he'd be top tier instantly if you gave him even a slight buff in his biggest flaw. Also his forward air is my favorite move in the entirety of smash bros as a whole, speaking of which...
Screenshot 2018-07-11 14.03.37.png

It seems to have gotten a slight range buff to it
 

Darches

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High endlag
Terrible frame data
Bad recovery
Easy to combo
So you want Bowser to be literally unusable...

As for Dedede, I wouldn't increase his kill power. I'd just reduce his lag and change his moveset a little to make him more like in the games. Also, make his hits connect properly. He already has decent kill power on almost everything :/ He could use a stronger kill throw though.
 
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Necro'lic

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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So you want Bowser to be literally unusable...
Note that when I say "terrible" frame data, it's comparative more than anything. Everything in my idea list is. It doesn't mean literally every single one of his moves will have a second of endlag either. He will have pokes, and a lot of safe on shield things, despite the high endlag.

The idea is his attacks overall would be safe on shield, but unsafe on whiff, and even then, he will still have some safe on whiff things. I'm not sure how that makes him "unusable".
 

Kirby Dragons

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This topic is something I care about in general. Making it so hard for heavy characters to do well subtracts from the game's quality, and is just plain unfair. I've been thinking of solutions. I really hate the speed buff they gave to Bowser in Sm4sh; it's extremely unfitting, especially for the heaviest character, and makes his playstyle something it shouldn't be. I also hate Tough Guy; super heavy characters shouldn't need a random, unprecedented gimmick to be decent. So here's what I'm thinking.
  1. Make them even heavier. Heavy characters are combo food, allowing them to be beaten to high percents easier. If you make them a little harder to kill overall, combos would become less to worry about.
  2. Their moves will typically be slow to come out and/or finish, but not every move has to be like this. Give each heavy a few useful and quick attacks, that could combo into bigger hits.
  3. Shield pressure. You have a super strong hit, yet all the power goes to waste when your opponent blocks it all. A heavy's power should apply even when the opponent is shielding.
 

MERPIS

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There's nothing wrong with heavyweights being fast. Bower's not fat like Dedede, he's just thick. Captain Falcon is another example.
Also, tough guy is cool.
jesus H so much this
However I do have a sort of a small issue with this, falcon isn't nearly as strong as DK or bowser are so his speed is justified
If oldmanindorf has falcon's speed and jumps he'd probably be high tier bare minimum
 

Teeb147

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
900
Samus doesn’t inherently deserve to be better than ZSS guys. That’s not how you balance a game.
Samus has been crappier than zss. All characters, ideally should be as good. And the thing is, story-wise, power armor is supposed to be an improvement, not a burden. But so long as they're just differently powerful (speed and combos vs toughness and projectiles) it's fine. But zss shouldn't be better just because of speed. It falls into the same convo as this thread.
 

MERPIS

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Samus has been crappier than zss. All characters, ideally should be as good. And the thing is, story-wise, power armor is supposed to be an improvement, not a burden. But so long as they're just differently powerful (speed and combos vs toughness and projectiles) it's fine. But zss shouldn't be better just because of speed. It falls into the same convo as this thread.
This game values mobility and combos above all else, Without these two things you cannot be top tier unless you have some other utterly ridiculous things, such as rosalina, or villager in the past, all of the top tiers have these things in some sort of way, and if they don't have one of these things, they sure as hell have a lot of the other, or in rosa's case, just be stupid with luma and be a nigh-impenetrable fortress that shuts down almost 75% of the case.

Unless varia samus was given a complete overhaul, she will never be as good as zss unless zss is nerfed to hell in ultimate, what samus needs to be top tier would be a way to rack up damage from afar quickly, but true to her nature her moves are slow and feel heavy, she also lacks fast projectiles outside of charge shot. When you look at the defensive characters above her, they all have different things that make them so much better, olimar has quite possibly the best damage racking in the game, decent mobility, good frame data, a kickass grab game, and quick up close moves if necessary to use them. Villager has a stupidly good ledge trapping and edgeguarding game, his zoning kit is real fast and hard to deal with, and his recovery is also amazing, TL has bombs to help with combo'ing and he also has really good traps and kill power, while being decently mobile, Mega man sets up a steel wall of lemons, and metal blade combos, rosaluma is just ridiculous in general, and mewtwo may not be a zoner per say but most of his neutral depends on using shadow ball while running away since his boxing game isn't so good, but he has the up close punish and pokes that lead into his ridiculous combo game, he also has the best over all mobility in the game and also has the best over all kill power in the game as well, so if he needs to do so, then he can fight up close
 
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