What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?

Teeb147

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#81
Quillion Quillion just to let you know you quoted me but there's like no text there.

When you're talking about characters, in what games are you talking about? Because pikachu has one of the worst ko games in smash4, you have to play really well and hope for players not to tech or to be really good at gimping. Nothing connects as a true combo into finishers. And Fox's window for upsmash is small.
After they nerfed sheik, it's really hard there too to have confirms into kos. Diddy kong has the best confirms, really. You generalize way too much, all characters are quite different..
Dedede isn't very good, but DK is really good. And Bowser is crazy good, there just aren't many who play him and have seen his strengths taken to the next level. His attacks hit like trucks, and he has the best grab in the game. His pivot grab is longer than marth's in melee. That and side-b are fast, and you can die around a bit over 60% because of combos from it. I never use sheik against him because it takes like 140%+ and by the time you get there you'll have been red and ko'ed. (not saying that's always the case, but i've seen it enough) All characters have strengths and weakness. I'm not saying to not change the heavies somehow (especially for being viable at high level play), but I won't stand for the particular direction of even more combos for them, when good reads by them when they're already way strong. It depends what moves you do them with, they would be too annoying to face depending on what you do. Also, bowswer can break shields in 1 or two moves, depending on which (esp down-b). You have to know their fuller potential, is the thing.

I feel like often you go with what you think of the characters, without really knowing the whole story.
Anyway. I'm against giving them more combos. I feel there's better ways to balance.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#82
As of yet, speedsters absolutely have the tools to work around having low knockback stats. Some speedsters like Fox and Pikachu outright have finishers with power that puts heavies to shame!
Their u-smashes are unusually strong for their lightweight status, and it's all thanks to the amount of damage AND knockback that they deal, along with how early the hitboxes become active. Mario's uncharged u-smash doesn't start KOing an opposing Mario until he has 118% damage, and it also hits 1 frame later than Fox's u-smash.

And then we have Bowser's u-smash, which KOs Mario at 86% damage with an uncharged sweetspot, so it does make sense for that attack to hit later.

What do you mean? SmashWiki says, "Its outstanding damage output also threatens shields, as they will receive severe damage from it."
Uncharged, the f-smash deals up to 23% damage to shields, since it doesn't have a shield damage bonus. That's not enough damage to put a shield at a state where it's about to break, unless it's around 50% its full size. A hitbox has to deal at least 40% damage (base damage + shield damage bonus) to break a partially damaged shield, and almost break a full shield; 42% damage seems to be the minimum damage amount that shatters even full shields.

So if Bowser's f-smash had a shield damage value of 15, the clean hit would deal 38% damage to shields (23% base damage + 15% shield damage).

I think the problem is that perfect shielding is too easy to make an f-smash easy to counter.
Obviously, getting the perfect shield will negate any kind of shield damage that the f-smash may deal. You do have to time it just right, however.
 
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Crystanium

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#83
Uncharged, the f-smash deals up to 23% damage to shields, since it doesn't have a shield damage bonus. That's not enough damage to put a shield at a state where it's about to break, unless it's around 50% its full size. A hitbox has to deal at least 40% damage (base damage + shield damage bonus) to break a partially damaged shield, and almost break a full shield; 42% damage seems to be the minimum damage amount that shatters even full shields.
I'm not familiar with how the numbers work, so suppose Bowser lands f-smash on an opponent. The attack's base damage is 23%, so what would the shield health be at? Something tells me it's not just subtracting shield health from attack damage. I don't know what shield damage bonus is.

Obviously, getting the perfect shield will negate any kind of shield damage that the f-smash may deal. You do have to time it just right, however.
It looks like SSBU might be better for heavies.
 

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#84
I'm not familiar with how the numbers work, so suppose Bowser lands f-smash on an opponent. The attack's base damage is 23%, so what would the shield health be at? Something tells me it's not just subtracting shield health from attack damage. I don't know what shield damage bonus is.
After reading about the shield mechanics even further, it turns out that the shield's maximum HP is 50, but attacks that hit it will deal 1.19x their normal damage ((base damage + shield damage) * 1.19). Also, the shield's HP will decrease by 0.13 for every frame that the player holds onto the shield.

Shield damage is basically bonus damage that's used whenever a hitbox strikes a shield. A hitbox with a low base damage value can potentially deal high damage to shields, if its shield damage value is high. Also, unlike base damage, shield damage is fixed, so the shield damage value will never change, regardless of any changes made to the hitbox's base damage.

So if Bowser's uncharged clean hit f-smash hits a shield, it would deal 27.37% damage ((23 + 0) * 1.19), taking away more than half of a full shield's HP. However, the shield has to have less than 56% of its maximum HP in order for the f-smash to break it.
 
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Necro'lic

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#85
After reading about the shield mechanics even further, it turns out that the shield's maximum HP is 50, but attacks that hit it will deal 1.19x their normal damage ((base damage + shield damage) * 1.19). Also, the shield's HP will decrease by 0.13 for every frame that the player holds onto the shield.

Shield damage is basically bonus damage that's used whenever a hitbox strikes a shield. A hitbox with a low base damage value can potentially deal high damage to shields, if its shield damage value is high. Also, unlike base damage, shield damage is fixed, so the shield damage value will never change, regardless of any changes made to the hitbox's base damage.

So if Bowser's uncharged clean hit f-smash hits a shield, it would deal 27.37% damage ((23 + 0) * 1.19), taking away more than half of a full shield's HP. However, the shield has to have less than 56% of its maximum HP in order for the f-smash to break it.
All this measurement is making me want to playtest and mess with the code of Smash 4. Maybe I can find a way to change up the knockback formula and allow for knockback that isn't based on damage, as well as a way to work with priority of hitboxes and shield damage.

Like imagine if the blueprint of Bowser's FSmash was it kills very early and does a lot of damage, but is unsafe on shield with little shield damage. With my idea of separate attributes, you can make Bowser's FSmash do maybe 30% damage uncharged, kill at 40%, but only do around 25% shield damage and little blockstun at all, but has the highest priority of 10 (going back to my priority idea there), which basically means it's an armored move for everything except other priority 10 moves. Now imagine mixmatching this for every move! It would be so easy to create niches for the characters, small or large. On top of that, maybe adding DI and SDI influencers as well as the hitstun/knockback separation like Quillion Quillion mentioned, and you have yourself a smorgasbord of options to work with. :D
 

Synnett

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#87
Talking about Sm4sh Bowser's fsmash, the kick was a huge mistake. It is literally never useful, not even a mindgame, it's too slow and your hurtbox goes through the opponent. Melee's fsmash tho, is amazing. It has a slow startup, but he steps back. You can use it to avoid a grab or a hitbox, and retaliate with the strongest smash in the game. Very good to edgeguard too, let's say Marth keeps recovering high to hit you with the upB, fsmash and he's dead. If he had it in Sm4sh, the opponent does a ledge attack and you punish.

I'm so sad they stuck with the kick it's just so bad (and looks dumb) :c

They were viable because of a braindead combo that killed ridiculously early on literally any character.
That's not how you balance a character.
That's so true, one of the main reasons I never played Sm4sh Bowser.
 
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MERPIS

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#88
Talking about Sm4sh Bowser's fsmash, the kick was a huge mistake. It is literally never useful, not even a mindgame, it's too slow and your hurtbox goes through the opponent. Melee's fsmash tho, is amazing. It has a slow startup, but he steps back. You can use it to avoid a grab or a hitbox, and retaliate with the strongest smash in the game. Very good to edgeguard too, let's say Marth keeps recovering high to hit you with the upB, fsmash and he's dead. If he had it in Sm4sh, the opponent does a ledge attack and you punish.

I'm so sad they stuck with the kick it's just so bad (and looks dumb) :c


That's so true, one of the main reasons I never played Sm4sh Bowser.
]
DK's even worse for that reason, of all things they just had to make cargo up throw into his combo throw? Why not dthrow? he would still have a dthrow to uair, but it wouldn't kill at stupidly low percents, also maybe give him armor on down b or something, help his other big flaw in being juggled, he also needs faster aerials in general, bair and uair are great but the rest are ***, Same with bowser, fix his aerial frame data and remove his stupidly strong uair, he can keep the combo throw because he desperately needs one, but also make his other moves combo too like utilt and jab. His uair isn't even that good either, its laggy and its only good quality is its ability to kill stupidly early
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#89
Talking about Sm4sh Bowser's fsmash, the kick was a huge mistake. It is literally never useful, not even a mindgame, it's too slow and your hurtbox goes through the opponent. Melee's fsmash tho, is amazing. It has a slow startup, but he steps back. You can use it to avoid a grab or a hitbox, and retaliate with the strongest smash in the game. Very good to edgeguard too, let's say Marth keeps recovering high to hit you with the upB, fsmash and he's dead. If he had it in Sm4sh, the opponent does a ledge attack and you punish.

I'm so sad they stuck with the kick it's just so bad (and looks dumb) :c
Since Bowser is no longer hunched over like his Melee and Brawl incarnations, it's pretty clear that the headbutt is not coming back. So the best thing that could happen is if the kick deals greater shield damage, so that way, fighters would have to think twice about trying to block it if their shield has already taken some damage.
 

MERPIS

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#90
Since Bowser is no longer hunched over like his Melee and Brawl incarnations, it's pretty clear that the headbutt is not coming back. So the best thing that could happen is if the kick deals greater shield damage, so that way, fighters would have to think twice about trying to block it if their shield has already taken some damage.
Screw it why don't we just make it instantly shatter a full shield?
 

Quillion

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#91
They were viable because of a braindead combo that killed ridiculously early on literally any character.
That's not how you balance a character.
This touches on a point I'm trying to make. Although some are against the idea of heavies doing combos, the fact of the matter is that they rely on really easy setups. It makes them predictable for experienced opponents and annoying for new players.

I think a secondary problem with heavies is that they have little room to exercise execution and experiment. They're just very WYSIWYG on what you can do with them.

That's why I want to give heavies low-knockback, high-hitstun moves. At least they would be more fun to learn.
 

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#92
This touches on a point I'm trying to make. Although some are against the idea of heavies doing combos, the fact of the matter is that they rely on really easy setups. It makes them predictable for experienced opponents and annoying for new players.

I think a secondary problem with heavies is that they have little room to exercise execution and experiment. They're just very WYSIWYG on what you can do with them.

That's why I want to give heavies low-knockback, high-hitstun moves. At least they would be more fun to learn.
I think some heavies should be combo heavy murder machines, its bad enough that they're large and most of them are slow, but one specific combo move shouldn't be the way to go
You look at Mario, a character with a well defined combo game, what does he have to start combos?
Dthrow
Uthrow
Dtilt
Nair
FF Uair
Bair
Utilt
and occaisionally dair

Now, take DK, what does he have?
Cargo Uthrow
Jab1(??)
Dtilt

THATS. IT.

Its not like DK has a better damage output than mario either, its relatively the same, its just that DK can actually kill out of his combo starter, when in reality he can already kill well enough with bair, uair, and bthrow all being great.
Instead of one single stupid combo that kills ridiculously early, I think they should've largely reduced land lag of uair, nair, and bair, however, they should also largely reduce knockback on uair, to not kill at stupid percents, make it more like a slightly stronger diddy's uair, but keep the damage, this way he can actually combo out of these 3 aerials and not have stupidity in the process, but still be able to tack on like, 30% or so, maybe also make dtilt launch at a 65 degree angle to improve on its combo potential, now he can have a combo throw I guess, but make it kind of like ryu, prevent it from working past say, 55 percent to avoid any stupid kills, this makes him more combo heavy but less ridiculous at death percents. I actually really wish dedede was like this he has so many moves he could use for combos, utilt, nair, dtilt, jab IF IT WAS GOOD, also maybe make his frame data faster but that's a rant for another day.
 

lordvaati

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#93
This touches on a point I'm trying to make. Although some are against the idea of heavies doing combos, the fact of the matter is that they rely on really easy setups. It makes them predictable for experienced opponents and annoying for new players.

I think a secondary problem with heavies is that they have little room to exercise execution and experiment. They're just very WYSIWYG on what you can do with them.

That's why I want to give heavies low-knockback, high-hitstun moves. At least they would be more fun to learn.
General feedback from the Ultimate demo seems to be skewing to them possibly going that path with Bowser, since it seems they are giving him less kill power in exchange for better movement, probably to address Sm4sh Bowser's weakness of being unable to do anything worth a drokk in the air.
 
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#94
3. Good movement speed
ROB I'm pretty sure is only average at this.

Heavy characters in Smash, IMO, should have the best finisher options, but their finishers have such bad frame data that it completely undermines the advantage
Thing is they should be slow so as not to make them OP.

startup frame data
We'd also expect Marth to be pretty bad
It's not his startup frame data that suffers, it's his lag.
 
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#95
The more I read through this thread, the more I feel like we’re being too general and that we need to look at character specifics rather than heavies as a whole.

:ultdk: Gained better landing options with less lag on all aerials and down special but he seemingly has no mid/high percent kill confirms

:ultbowser: needs better landing options and now kill confirms to be a consistent though the lag reductions, tough guy buff and fire breath buff help.

:ultganondorf: Is largely in the same position as :ultbowser: but he really needs a better recovery too. At least he has good approaches now but I’m still praying for an up special buff.

:ultsnake: Needs a faster and safer way to break combos. He’s probably also in the best shape of the current heavies.

:ultkingdedede: Needs a fast aerial to break up strings with and an air speed buff would go a long way as well.

:ultike: Is looking better and more promising than he’s looked before. He could still use a better recovery and a fast aerial though.

:ultrob: could use a fast aerial too but I’m looking forward to seeing if he can make use of glide tossing and his new down throw.

:ultwario: Needs more disjoint and kill confirms. He probably doesn’t need his brawl air speed but it would be nice.

:ultbowserjr: Needs landing options and better tilts to approach with. I currently think he’s the worst heavy.

:ultridley: Could probably use a fast combo breaking move and a kill confirm but I’m optimistic.
 

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#96
Needs a fast aerial to break up strings with and an air speed buff would go a long way as well.
no he just needs better kill power and faster frame data and landing lag in general
Needs a faster and safer way to break combos. He’s probably also in the best shape of the current heavies.
dair is now frame 3 in SSBU
Needs more disjoint and kill confirms. He probably doesn’t need his brawl air speed but it would be nice.
Wel you got this one right, he also needs more strength in general, also stronger aerials overall, fair doesn't kill until like 175%, which is just stupid.
 
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#97
no he just needs better kill power and faster frame data and landing lag in general

dair is now frame 3 in SSBU
I always thought Dedede’s biggest problem was that he was so vulnerable to juggles from fast characters. Make his Nair frame 5 or give him his brawl Bair and he shoots up a tier in my opinion.
 
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#98
Can we also bring up Yoshi in this discussion? I mean, he IS a heavy; a very unconventional one, but still a heavy.

One thing I would like to have him get a buff in is his jumpsquat. 7 frames is such **** for a character with such prowess in both the Smash games and his own games. This would also help to give him a better OoS game with his frame 3 Nair.
 

Necro'lic

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#99
Can we also bring up Yoshi in this discussion? I mean, he IS a heavy; a very unconventional one, but still a heavy.

One thing I would like to have him get a buff in is his jumpsquat. 7 frames is such **** for a character with such prowess in both the Smash games and his own games. This would also help to give him a better OoS game with his frame 3 Nair.
You're in luck, cause all characters have a 3 frame jumpsquat in Ultimate. :D
 

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I always thought Dedede’s biggest problem was that he was so vulnerable to juggles from fast characters. Make his Nair frame 5 or give him his brawl Bair and he shoots up a tier in my opinion.
his biggest problem is his terrible frame data and his bad mobility, as well as his terrible kill power for some one with frame data that slow. Also his hitboxes too blow chunks, his nair already comes out fast, and his new bair looks surprisingly good

You're in luck, cause all characters have a 3 frame jumpsquat in Ultimate. :D
What yoshi needs is an actual grab game, he has by far the worst throws in the game and also has possibly the second worst grab behind pac man, if they made uthrow combo better he would be SO much more viable, ye sure uthrow to uair would kill at like, 95% but so does utilt to uair at like 105%, his recovery is workable, and his range, while bad, isn't quite as crap as mario, he has amazing mobility as well. But without a functional grab he will always be trash
 
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Necro'lic

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I still think some of the tools and moves given should be standardized a lot more, including grab frame data, which would definitely help out the historically bad grabbers like Samus and Yoshi. The variance on startup for grabs is way too high, with 6 being the lowest and 16 being the highest. Not to mention the endlag differences, especially for tether grabs. I think tether grabs should have more range and an actually standard amount of startup. Maybe then they will be better without being blatantly better grabs.
 

Quillion

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What the ranged grabs need is an actual hitbox that isn't the tip. I hate that I can't grab at point blank with Samus, pre-Ultimate Link, or Yoshi.
 

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It certainly is, and for the Wii and Wii U titles, Z is essentially treated as a macro for shield+A, meaning that there will be some flaws in how it's implemented. I don't see that going away since SSBU is probably going to allow play with a sideways Joy Con.
Well that's terrible; the same logic led to Super Mario 3D World controling badly as well.

Yes, diversity should be inherent in the characters. Which is why heavies should have more combo moves.
When I said diversity I was talking about utility. Combo moves are just moves that basically deal more damage. I meant stuff like say, Bowser's fAir range vs bAir power. Or like, the extreme knockback differences on Ganondorf's otherwise nearly identical fTilt and dTilt. Interesting choices, you know?

This change is important because meteor smashes already don't work on ninjas, but they work TOO well against heavies (often killing at 0%). The interplay between spikes, stage spikes, ledge trumping, etc., is not yet something I have a good fix for, so this change can be ignored.
The problem is that speedsters have small hitboxes and heavies big hitboxes in general, not their weight.
Um, no? The problem is that heavies can't recover. They tend to have less air speed, acceleration, weaker double jumps, AND worse upB's. The end result is that their endurance becomes much worse than it should be AND they're weaker to spikes. Bower actually has the BEST recovery of the super heavyweights but a crippling weakness to spikes (notably against Captain Falcon). DK isn't as weak to them but they're even more effective on him. Dedede is actually hard to stop but his lack of hitboxes and arbitary armor periods makes his recovery exploitable (and his trash air speed makes his double jumps much less effective). Ganondorf just straight up can't recover.


You see, this is why we need staling and more move diversity on combos. Spam combos definitely deserve to have their effectiveness weakened, though I would like for them to increase in BKB and decrease in KBG, so that they have less combo and finishing effectiveness.
That's called a nerf. With good balance, staling is completely unnecessary. Melee didn't have staling but did people complain?

There can't be an execution-mindgame imbalance; it would be best if every character has some mix of execution and mindgames instead of relying on one over the other.
First, there already IS an execution-mindgame imbalance. Second, there's a spectrum so people can choose their playstyle. Ganondorf leans towards mindgames for example. A mixed character might be Mario.

---

I thought Bowser Jr. was great other than being straight up more vulnerable, especially when recovering. His hammer attack even protects him from short range melee fighters; I assume the sword spam is what holds him back. I considered maining him but found his cannon to be useless and over-reliance on mechakoopas a bit cancerous. That and the poor grab.

I thought Bowser Jr. was excellent other than being straight up more vulnerable, especially when recovering. His hammer attack even protects him from short range melee fighters; I assume the sword spam is what holds him back.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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That's called a nerf. With good balance, staling is completely unnecessary. Melee didn't have staling but did people complain?
Melee actually does have stale move mechanics. If you use the same attack twice, the second hit will always deal less damage than the first.
 

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Oh, I thought that was just another jank mechanic added to Brawl. I never looked it up because I cared so little about it. It has no effect in 20XX.
 

Teeb147

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So according to Larry Lurr, DK got a few really good things for Ultimate. I think they probably know the heavies needed some kinds of changes/buffs, and looks like maybe it's working its way there.

 
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And Ganondorf and Bowser! The 4 kings must reign supreme!
Don't tell me what characters I want to be top tier
Wario literally needs just one thing in order to be top tier or at least high tier and that's heavyweight kill power like he should have, make uair and bair kill like around 105% on middles, maybe make fair kill at around 145% at the ledge of FD on middles, maybe make dtilt pop at a higher angle so it can combo into something, he could be given a kill throw since dthrow is useless but dthrow waft sounds ridiculous, I really hope his new dash attack kills, it seems like it would it.
 
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Wario may be heavy but he's fast, mobile, and has perhaps the best air grab in the game. His fThrow also kills at a reasonable 165 (by my standards, assuming Mario's bThrow kills at 150). You're asking for a ridiculous amount of power for such a character. It's best to just nerf the top tiers out of OP land first (just ask David Sirlin).
 
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Quillion

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Wario may be heavy but he's fast, mobile, and has perhaps the best air grab in the game. His fThrow also kills at a reasonable 165 (by my standards, assuming Mario's bThrow kills at 150). You're asking for a ridiculous amount of power for such a character. It's best to just nerf the top tiers out of OP land first (just ask David Sirlin).
And make all of them short of Meta Knight completely unfun to play as like in Brawl? Sorry, that's not going to work.

It's best to bring the heavies up to the top tiers' level and not the other way around.
 

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Wario may be heavy but he's fast, mobile, and has perhaps the best air grab in the game. His fThrow also kills at a reasonable 165 (by my standards, assuming Mario's bThrow kills at 150). You're asking for a ridiculous amount of power for such a character. It's best to just nerf the top tiers out of OP land first (just ask David Sirlin).
so is DK, and look at him
miss me with that bullcrap
 

Necro'lic

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And make all of them short of Meta Knight completely unfun to play as like in Brawl? Sorry, that's not going to work.

It's best to bring the heavies up to the top tiers' level and not the other way around.
I think what he means is more along the lines of nerfing the super top tiers that break the game, like Meta Knight and to a much lesser extent, Bayonetta. Which you should. Ideally there is no S tier and there is no F tier or even a D tier really. Everyone should be in A, B, C tier. That's the rule David Sirlin posed for balance.
 

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I think what he means is more along the lines of nerfing the super top tiers that break the game, like Meta Knight and to a much lesser extent, Bayonetta. Which you should. Ideally there is no S tier and there is no F tier or even a D tier really. Everyone should be in A, B, C tier. That's the rule David Sirlin posed for balance.
at that point for might as well just make every character a direct mario clone and call it a day
 

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I think what he means is more along the lines of nerfing the super top tiers that break the game, like Meta Knight and to a much lesser extent, Bayonetta. Which you should. Ideally there is no S tier and there is no F tier or even a D tier really. Everyone should be in A, B, C tier. That's the rule David Sirlin posed for balance.
Point taken, but there's a reason why people were opposed to banning Meta Knight in Brawl in spite of him being horribly broken; he's just too fun to combo and experiment with.

That said, Meta Knight wasn't fundamentally broken, he was just the only one who could take advantage of Brawl's anti-combo mechanics. Tweaking his numbers a bit and putting him in Smash 4 fixed everything.

Bayonetta, on the other hand, really is fundamentally broken. And it's all because combos are supposed to be her "central gimmick" with everyone else being overly reliant on throw combos. Even then, the solution is to universalize Bayonetta's biggest advantage into a universal air dash, since that way Bayonetta remains as fun to play as.
 

Necro'lic

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at that point for might as well just make every character a direct mario clone and call it a day
Who said we were asking for perfect balance? Why did you interpret me saying there shouldn't be any godlike or completely useless characters as saying they should all be the same? This implies that you believe in order to have unique character design, you HAVE to have useless and godlike characters, which is just wrong.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

The Cute Cosmic Protector
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TPitch5
Don't tell me what characters I want to be top tier
Wario literally needs just one thing in order to be top tier or at least high tier and that's heavyweight kill power like he should have, make uair and bair kill like around 105% on middles, maybe make fair kill at around 145% at the ledge of FD on middles, maybe make dtilt pop at a higher angle so it can combo into something, he could be given a kill throw since dthrow is useless but dthrow waft sounds ridiculous, I really hope his new dash attack kills, it seems like it would it.
Frankly, an up aerial that KOs under 105% would be more fitting for characters like Zelda and Ike, since their start-up lag balances out that KO power. Wario's up aerial hits on frame 8, which sort of feels too early for the attack to KO THAT early. On the other hand, Bowser's up aerial hits on frame 9, and is among the strongest up aerials in Smash 3DS / Wii U, KOing Mario at 105% damage if he's on Battlefield's center platform.

For another comparison, Donkey Kong's up aerial KOs Mario at some point after 115% damage if he's on Battlefield's center platform, and it hits on frame 6. Oddly, Ness's up aerial KOs sooner, despite dealing just as much damage as Donkey Kong's up aerial. It just goes to show how BKB and KBG differences can influence how quickly a hitbox can KO.
 
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