What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?

[Necro'lic]

Got a better idea of how to bridge the combo gap?

Why are we trying to? Some characters should have more combos than others. This is one of the differences between fighters that should be highlighted.

What I think would be a similar effect without removing uniqueness is giving more defensive tools for heavies to use (including making weight not matter as much defensively, but I sorta talked about that and we're on the same page there). This, along with better gimmicks to make up for low combo ability, are key for not only heavies, but any archetype that involves low combo potential.

The only other solution is doing away with ring-outs entirely and just use plain old health bars to determine winners, making a traditional fighter in other words. That way you have a binary survival advantage with higher health and none of the other factors like recovery muddying things up, and shorter combos wouldn't matter when they're dealing more damage anyway.

Honestly, the fact weight is both an advantage and disadvantage is enough to not need any of this. The problem isn't that weight is a disadvantage that needs to be compensated directly, but that the design of heavy characters needs to understand that high weight is a neutral thing balance-wise, and thus shouldn't heavily gimp these characters via lackluster recovery, low combo ability, etc. simply based on weight.

Of course, unless this was a spin-off then Smash would be losing it's identity. But hey, whatever it takes to get away from those filthy casuals and into pure balancing for one mode, right? Jokes aside I wouldn't mind this, I just don't pretend that wanting such a thing isn't selfish. There are a number of traditional fighters using Smash-style inputs, like Pokken Tournament and Granblue Fantasy Versus (albeit the latter working like the input characters in Smash where it's less rewarding than the proper inputs).

Funny you mention Pokken Tournament, because I think it does comboing and balancing combo ability between light and heavy characters far better than Smash ever has. But not sure why you keep bringing up this whole "excluding casuals" thing, when I'm pretty sure I mentioned that the simplistic controls and easy to learn gameplay (along with everything else outside 1v1 like game modes) is more than enough to draw in a casual crowd and no one is saying that should be messed with.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

But not sure why you keep bringing up this whole "excluding casuals" thing, when I'm pretty sure I mentioned that the simplistic controls and easy to learn gameplay (along with everything else outside 1v1 like game modes) is more than enough to draw in a casual crowd and no one is saying that should be messed with.

Well, there are a few design aspects that need to be considered that apply to casual play, but not competitive play. For example, Kirby's Stone is a move that pretty much every casual player latches onto. Every young person that has played a Super Smash Bros. Game has probably done the thing where you jump up to the top, use stone, rinse and repeat. It works in casual play because players aren't that great at reacting to attacks or just playing neutral in general. In competitive play you never even see Stone used as a landing tool because it just gets punished with a grab or in its endlag.

The lower skill between both players in casual play probably effects grapplers the most since their weaknesses won't come into play. They don't get comboed harder or edge-guarded easier because neither player can do either thing, at least, not well. And since neither player really interacts with the advantage state, heavy characters can live longer, and still have access to things like Ganondorf's Forward Smash (which already works better in neutral because neither player really knows what they're doing).

There are also some shifts in what's good in competitive doubles since there are two more characters to keep your eye on, but I don't follow the doubles scene so I don't know how exactly things change.

 

[Deleted member]

So a heavy's weaknesses make them unplayable in competitive 1v1s? Because it sounds like being combo food and getting gimped a lot is something most superheavies don't come back from, and why they usually never win.

 

[meleebrawler]

So a heavy's weaknesses make them unplayable in competitive 1v1s? Because it sounds like being combo food and getting gimped a lot is something most superheavies don't come back from, and why they usually never win.

Back for more heavy whining and self-projecting on other's failures, eh?

Keep willfully ignoring results superheavie's results they managed to get (especially Bowser), or how many higher tiers also have issues with being comboed a lot (), poor landing options () and/or bad/subpar recoveries () all you want. They prove such weaknesses aren't a death knell. The superheavies that aren't so lucky in 1v1 just have strengths that suit them better in other modes.

 

[Deleted member]

Back for more heavy whining and self-projecting on other's failures, eh?

Keep willfully ignoring results superheavie's results they managed to get (especially Bowser), or how many higher tiers also have issues with being comboed a lot (), poor landing options () and/or bad/subpar recoveries () all you want. They prove such weaknesses aren't a death knell. The superheavies that aren't so lucky in 1v1 just have strengths that suit them better in other modes.

As I recently said, I'm already aware of Fox's combo food weakness. And I'm more than aware of these other issues you listed. But those characters tend to only have that one weakness while superheavies have several, hence my low opinion of them.

And as someone who personally mains , I'm rather offended by your overrated gender preference.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And as someone who personally mains , I'm rather offended by your overrated gender preference.

...What? Don't attack her for liking Leaf! That's uncalled for.

 

[Deleted member]

...What? Don't attack her for liking Leaf! That's uncalled for.

Heck, I didn't know she was female. Disregard that then.

But my other statement still stands. A character like Fox won't suffer immensely for his one pretty bad flaw. The same can't be said for Ganondorf, who has all three flaws listed, as well as being slow. There's a good chance that getting into disadvantage even once will cost him a stock.

I can't speak for the other superheavies, as Ganondorf is the only one who I can say has all the typical superheavy flaws.

 

[meleebrawler]

Uh, I'm male. My choice of avatar has no real leaning on gender.

Ganondorf is just an extreme, and great example of going for diverse playstyles over practicality in one single mode. His schtick is having more raw power than anyone else in the game, at the expense of virtually everything else. Xull in Brawlhalla is similar, and is not particularly well-regarded either competitively, even though the differences between characters in that game are much smaller.

But it's telling that Ganondorf is an extremely popular choice in many other circumstances. Partly because his extreme nature has his effectiveness fluctuate greatly between modes (dominating free-for-alls and Home-Run Contest), and partly because... come on. Power is just fun to use, no matter how hard it may be to use it effectively.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I've heard some say that grabs were balanced very well in this game and I agree with this except for superheavies.
Their grab frame data is noticeably slower than most shorter characters, yet their actual grab range doesn't compare to tethers, not helped out due to grabs being 4 frames slower out of shield stun on an archetype who historically struggles with out of shields options or just shields in general.

Personally, I think it'd be fair to give them less overall lag, example for :

-Standing Grab startup (frame 8 → 7).
-Standing Grab endlag (FAF 40 → 34).
-Dash Grab startup (frame 11 → 9).
-Dash Grab endlag (FAF 48 → 40).
-Pivot Grab startup (frame 12 → 10).
-Pivot Grab endlag (FAF 43 → 37).

It fits since they often have stronger throw games and it'd work as a cool niche for them to stick out since heavies usually dominate in the grapple style from other fighting games.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I've heard some say that grabs were balanced very well in this game and I agree with this except for superheavies.
Their grab frame data is noticeably slower than most shorter characters, yet their actual grab range doesn't compare to tethers, not helped out due to grabs being 4 frames slower out of shield stun on an archetype who historically struggles with out of shields options or just shields in general.

Personally, I think it'd be fair to give them less overall lag, example for :

-Standing Grab startup (frame 8 → 7).
-Standing Grab endlag (FAF 40 → 34).
-Dash Grab startup (frame 11 → 9).
-Dash Grab endlag (FAF 48 → 40).
-Pivot Grab startup (frame 12 → 10).
-Pivot Grab endlag (FAF 43 → 37).

It fits since they often have stronger throw games and it'd work as a cool niche for them to stick out since heavies usually dominate in the grapple style from other fighting games.

Honestly all grabs are kind of risky in Ultimate, out of shield or otherwise. I like heavy grabs because they've got enough range that they don't randomly wiff as much as a swordsmen's but aren't quite as risky as most tethers. They're a nice middle ground. They also tend to have kill throws which means the reward for landing them is there.

The real problem I feel lies in mobility. Bowser, DK and Charizard all have really threatening grabs imo because their dash speeds are so good, but Gandondorf and Dedede will have a harder time closing the gap. For the slower heavies I don't think grab buffs would be unwarranted, but I don't think it'd do much to fix their core issues either.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

I'm aware it wouldn't do much for their poor disadvantage state...
But on an archetype that mostly specializes in strong throws (R.I.P & ), why keep them from getting good access to them...
That's like making a swordie who struggles to space, or a brawler with poor boxing tools.

Grappling is one of their niches and IMO on at game design outlook, it makes more sense this way.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm aware it wouldn't do much for their poor disadvantage state...
But on an archetype that mostly specializes in strong throws (R.I.P & ), why keep them from getting good access to them...
That's like making a swordie who struggles to space, or a brawler with poor boxing tools.

Grappling is one of their niches and IMO on at game design outlook, it makes more sense this way.

For Ganondorf, I think it's because his Down Throw is a kill confirm, and you don't want to give a character whose specialty is killing you at 40 an easy kill confirm.

King Dedede is...a mess, but I'd say his archetype is supposed to be a mix between the projectile zoner, and the trapper. His grappler influences come with a command grab that's more useful as a reflector, high survivability, and slow, but powerful hits. To be honest, I think the poor guy gets the worst of both worlds; the zoner archetype gives him a big 'ol hammer, but the grappler archetype gives him crap frame data so he can't really zone with it, and the one projectile he gets does give him good ledge traps, but it's pretty terrible at being a projectile in all other situations. So much so that the few King Dededes I've seen tend to just throw it out really close up on shields.

I'd say that the only true grapplers in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate are Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Incineroar, and I think they do decent jobs at fulfilling this nice.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

For Ganondorf, I think it's because his Down Throw is a kill confirm, and you don't want to give a character whose specialty is killing you at 40 an easy kill confirm.

What kill confirm? I've never heard of this.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What kill confirm? I've never heard of this.

Down Throw -> Back Air. I just read it off of SmashWiki and didn't test it so it could be wrong or outdated.

You know what? I'll be right back.

EDIT: I'm pretty bad at pulling it off but it does seem to work, and kills Mario from his spawn point on Final Destination at about 62%.
EDIT EDIT: This is of course, not taking DI into account since I can't test that by myself.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

You know what? I'll be right back.

EDIT: I'm pretty bad at pulling it off but it does seem to work, and kills Mario from his spawn point on Final Destination at about 62%.
EDIT EDIT: This is of course, not taking DI into account since I can't test that by myself.

R.I.P

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Down Throw -> Back Air. I just read it off of SmashWiki and didn't test it so it could be wrong or outdated.

You know what? I'll be right back.

EDIT: I'm pretty bad at pulling it off but it does seem to work, and kills Mario from his spawn point on Final Destination at about 62%.
EDIT EDIT: This is of course, not taking DI into account since I can't test that by myself.

Now I remember. This is super hard to pull off and is very situational, so I wouldn't take it into account when evaluating Ganandorf as a character.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Now I remember. This is super hard to pull off and is very situational, so I wouldn't take it into account when evaluating Ganandorf as a character.

I was just thinking along the lines of it probably probably being a bad idea to make that option stronger like that.

Then again, difficult tech like that is probably the best way to make the grappler archetype stronger in competitive play without making them stronger in casual play since they won't find it or be able to realistically pull it off if they know about it. That is, of course, assuming that it addresses their character's flaws. In the case of buffing grab frame data, I don't think it does.

 

[Blackwolf666]

I’d say more weaker but high priority attacks, less landing lag and more strong armored attacks

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Then again, difficult tech like that is probably the best way to make the grappler archetype stronger in competitive play without making them stronger in casual play since they won't find it or be able to realistically pull it off if they know about it. That is, of course, assuming that it addresses their character's flaws. In the case of buffing grab frame data, I don't think it does.

It would honestly do much more since they could get away with whiffing grabs which would do wonders against & out of shields in a meta where only really tether grab can do so.

As I said, it wouldn't be the end all be all of the heavies problems but it makes more sense this way.


(Also casuals really shouldn't be considered, heavies naturally do better at low levels because high tiers are hard )

 

[Mogisthelioma]

So this video just came out. I pretty much covers everything wrong with heavies and how they should be fixed.

 

[Necro'lic]

So this video just came out. I pretty much covers everything wrong with heavies and how they should be fixed.

Doesn't really say how they should be fixed per se. The closest to that is noting Rivals of Aethers' heavyweight design being far more varied, which I, at least, have consistently advocated for for years. Honestly, I still see Rivals of Aether as more of an evolution of what the platform fighter genre can be compared to Smash currently.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Doesn't really say how they should be fixed per se. The closest to that is noting Rivals of Aethers' heavyweight design being far more varied, which I, at least, have consistently advocated for for years. Honestly, I still see Rivals of Aether as more of an evolution of what the platform fighter genre can be compared to Smash currently.

The fixes the author promoted were more subliminal, I daresay. He alluded to the ideas of characters (namely Ganondorf) having redesigns/clean slates so they can rework the "power of agility" mechanic. He also hinted at improving the recoveries of heavyweights to mirror their aspect of survivability. There were a few other things too, but they've already been covered on this thread.

 

[Deleted member]

The fixes the author promoted were more subliminal, I daresay. He alluded to the ideas of characters (namely Ganondorf) having redesigns/clean slates so they can rework the "power of agility" mechanic. He also hinted at improving the recoveries of heavyweights to mirror their aspect of survivability. There were a few other things too, but they've already been covered on this thread.

I was told that making fixes like that would overpower the disadvantage state of superheavies, which are bad because of their oppressive advantage states.

 

[Necro'lic]

I was told that making fixes like that would overpower the disadvantage state of superheavies, which are bad because of their oppressive advantage states.

Their oppressive advantage states are only an illusion though. Well not quite. What I mean is that they seem to be more oppressive than agile characters because the skill level to reach that oppression is easier. However, when an agile character can combo and pressure, they have just as oppressive an advantage anyway.

 

[meleebrawler]

Their oppressive advantage states are only an illusion though. Well not quite. What I mean is that they seem to be more oppressive than agile characters because the skill level to reach that oppression is easier. However, when an agile character can combo and pressure, they have just as oppressive an advantage anyway.

Still doesn't change the fact that there are many scenarios, especially outside of 1v1, where even if you exactly how to maximize the damage potential of speedsters via combos, it doesn't matter because outside factors conspire to interrupt them midway. Other players, items and stage hazards not leaving well enough alone are a constant that won't go away no matter what the system is like.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Still doesn't change the fact that there are many scenarios, especially outside of 1v1, where even if you exactly how to maximize the damage potential of speedsters via combos, it doesn't matter because outside factors conspire to interrupt them midway. Other players, items and stage hazards not leaving well enough alone are a constant that won't go away no matter what the system is like.

How is this a "Heavies Only" issue...

Free-For-Alls are filled to the brim with "right place at the right time" situations due to their chaotic nature.
Any character and/or arch-type has many viable highlights in those environments, rather than heavies just being naturally being dominant...

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I was told that making fixes like that would overpower the disadvantage state of superheavies, which are bad because of their oppressive advantage states.

Their advantage states aren't oppressive. In fact, they're the worst among the four main archetypes depending on the situation (worst at juggling and combos, as good or better at ledge trapping*, as good or worse at edge guarding). Instead, they get more out of winning neutral with their higher damage output.

*The ability to ledge trap doesn't depend on archetype.

Still doesn't change the fact that there are many scenarios, especially outside of 1v1, where even if you exactly how to maximize the damage potential of speedsters via combos, it doesn't matter because outside factors conspire to interrupt them midway. Other players, items and stage hazards not leaving well enough alone are a constant that won't go away no matter what the system is like.

I don't think this makes rushdown characters worse in team or free for all matches though. Their combos may be interrupted, but that means you either return to neutral with that character (not that big of a setback since your neutral is better), are still in advantage, or you and the opponent(s) you were comboing are now all in disadvantage (in which case you're more likely to recover due to being a smaller and/or faster target).

They're also better at getting items first, and rushing in to save their teammates since they're faster.

 

[Necro'lic]

Still doesn't change the fact that there are many scenarios, especially outside of 1v1, where even if you exactly how to maximize the damage potential of speedsters via combos, it doesn't matter because outside factors conspire to interrupt them midway. Other players, items and stage hazards not leaving well enough alone are a constant that won't go away no matter what the system is like.

Like SMAASH! Puppy said, your criticism doesn't really handle scrutiny even in a casual environment, since agile characters, by their nature, will be able to get to items much easier and use them more often than less agile ones. On top of this, the bad recovery of most heavyweights works worse in this environment since there could be multiple people gunning for them simply by virtue of being off the stage.

I know you are speaking for the non 1v1 side of Smash balance and that's fine, but this particular example is just weak. Items' existence and actual power makes almost all balancing tenets for competitive go out the window anyway, and the few that don't can be dealt with while still giving whatever non-1v1-destroying character the ability to work better in a competitive environment.

 

[Master Knight DH]

So this video just came out. It pretty much covers everything wrong with heavies and how they should be fixed.

Since you posted, I may as well copypasta my thread post there about KIU. The primary post, as it is a list, will go behind a Spoiler Tag.

Spoiler

Kid Icarus gives Clubs the worst frame data of all of the weapon families, but Skyscraper Club is definitely usable without relying too much on gimmicks, despite having bad mobility and effective range. Here's a list of reasons why:

-Shots
--Big size results in trapping ability
--5 Shot Cancel defeats plenty of Dash Shots
--High Base Damage allows for destroying plenty of higher SC attacks
--Neutral Shot
---Ignores walls
---100 Shot Stamina
---Can disrupt obvious escapes
---30m/s velocity still is workable
--Controls allow for easy re-aim of Dash Shots
--Parry Chargeup provides a full second of chargeup per Parry Dodge for most Clubs, including Skyscraper
-Getups
--Attack is Forward Shot
--All Getups have intangibility lasting to IASA for Attack or even later for the others
--Roll is extremely versatile
--Damage taken during fallen state is highly reduced
--Getups have longer durations, supporting reads
-Powers
--Activate on Frame 1
--Lengthy buffer
--Buff Power activation
---Doesn't interfere with current actions
---Can be done during a Neutral Shot or Neutral Rapid/Swing action
---Can be done during a Getup option other than attack
--Armor Powers
---Prevents attack interruption for duration
---Prevents attack pushback
---Duration per charge is 20 seconds compared to the standard of 16 seconds
---Super Armor only has to worry about Power space
---Counter provides free instant chargeup
---Counter discourages hitbox spam
---Counter is cost-effective
--Grid Reading
---Line Powers
----Conflicts with leveled Slip Shot (Bumblebee, Mega Laser, Super Speed, leveled Autoreticle, Reflect Barrier L4; leads into liberal terrain cover usage)
----Conflicts with Aries Armor/Trade-Off (Power Thief, Virus; leads into liberal Counter usage)
---Reflect Barrier has easy mnemonics (rectangle shape size 2 by 2+L, 1 charge per Level)
---Energy Charge pressures 1 center space per Level
---Energy Charge has only 1 charge per Level
---Libra Sponge has 12 space minimum and only 1 charge
---Trade-Off has 11 space minimum and only 1 charge
---Playing Dead has complications with Slip Shot/Energy Charge combination
---Pisces Heal uses a center space unconditionally (TO/PH combination setup has this as a key weakness; resulting shapes prevents Energy Charge, Libra Sponge, Freeze Attack, Tempura Attack, Playing Dead, and Spite; and limits (to the Level in parentheses) Angelic Missile (L1), Warp (L2), Quick Charge (L2), Homing Boost (L1), Invisible Shots (L1), Eggplant Attack (L1), Darkness (L3), Super Armor (L1), Lightweight (L2), Transparency (L1), and Health Recovery (L2))
---Counter cost-effectively trades with most Buff Powers
---Super Armor L2+ cost-effectively trades with:
----Multiple Buff Power casts in general
----Energy Charge L3 and below
----Bumblebee
----Lightweight
----Any 10 space minimum Power (Slip Shot, Playing Dead, Trade-Off, all 3 Zodiac Powers)
--Tag Powers
---Super Speed
----Run at 2.5x speed for 6 second duration
----Unhindered turning angle is wide
----Forward Shot usage maintained, if forced
----Escape capability
----Cuts damage in half for duration
----5 charges for L4's 9 spaces
----Line Power usage isn't a big problem for Skyscraper Club
---Jump Glide
----Can clear height-based obstacles
----Bolstered by starting momentum of a dash
----Neutral Shot is more capable of a sucker punch
----5 charges for L1's 4 spaces
(Palutena: KNEEL BEFORE ME!) (Cue "Boss Fight 2")
---BLACK HOLE
----Obvious rooting Power
----Chains into Skyscraper Club's extremely powerful Forward Shot
----Demands Power usage or Shot Cancel attacks to blunt
----Black Hole has its own damage effect (eliminates Energy Charge)
----Black Hole's damage effect can't be Parry Dodged (this EVEN DOES SOMETHING TO EVASION+ SETUPS)
----Rewards Grid Reading immensely
----Punishes offense Power spam
----Punishes burning out defense Powers
----Some tag protection is only good for just that in the Skyscraper Club matchup (Counter)
----Can smoke out tag protection
----Some big tag protection isn't even foolproof
----Can vacuum opponent out of Reflect Barrier's protection
----Reflect Barrier counter can be countered by Super Speed followup
----Exploits Bumblebee's forced clockwise movement on auto-dodge
----Holding back on Powers for psychological warfare just has you deal with Counter/Super Speed/Jump Glide
----Summary: distance warfare becomes FAR more interactive
---- BLACK HOLE
---- B L A C K H O L E

I also did an immediate followup post to indicate why melee rush setups aren't worth as much of a glance as range shenanigans (summary: the Powers "Super Armor" and "Counter") so if you find my thread on the video, you can read that if you're interested.

Meanwhile, I'm going to respond to another post of interest here:

Doesn't really say how they should be fixed per se. The closest to that is noting Rivals of Aethers' heavyweight design being far more varied, which I, at least, have consistently advocated for for years. Honestly, I still see Rivals of Aether as more of an evolution of what the platform fighter genre can be compared to Smash currently.

You have a list of what Rivals of Aether does right, especially for supporting heavies, right? I certainly went with the list approach for a reason as you can see in the spoiler tag.