What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?

[Necro'lic]

This isn't quite the place for wishlists and move-by-move deep analysis. I'd suggest broad strokes about how you think systematic changes in the game will effect her compared to other heavies, given her unique situation.

I mean, I sorta did that with the beginning paragraphs after the General Stats section. Then again, most of them aren't in Ultimate so I guess it's theorycraft. :/

 

[Quillion]

If we're talking about systematic changes, I don't really have faith that Ultimate will make the changes that are needed to give heavies more of an edge. They've done a little bit such as parries for bait-and-punish, standardized jumpsquat, and low landing lag on all moves, but...

I think what's really needed are some sort of systematic change to give heavies more DPS compared to their faster counterparts, and not by gutting the combo potential of the speedsters like in Brawl. On the individual character level, I would like to see heavies have better moves for knockdown and/or recovery pressure. I also hope that there will be some "guaranteed trip" moves as a sort of counterpart to hard knockdowns in traditional fighters. I know I saw Bowser use his d-tilt to trip in one of the character trailers. That could set up good pressure opportunities while still allowing opponents to escape.

 

[LancerStaff]

I mean, there’s mechanics that hurt heavies too. Short hop damage is reduced, and shieldstun looks terrible too. It might be just outright jump cancelable frame 1, which heavies most certainly will not be able to abuse well.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Speed, safety on block, good approaches, strong neutral game, better recovery options

 

[Quillion]

Speed, safety on block, good approaches, strong neutral game, better recovery options

I agree, but as Necro'lic said, it would be best if certain heavies focus on different aspects more than others.

For a few examples, Bowser can be fast, Dedede and Ike can focus on neutral, and Charizard could have better approach and recovery.

 

[Necro'lic]

Likewise, some heavies can be BAD at certain things by design and still work. Like Bowser could have bad recovery and still work, Dedede could have bad approach and still work, and Ganon can have bad movement speed and still work. It all depends on how you work those strengths and weaknesses together. It's what I've been trying to do with Samus. Practically theorizing and giving her an entire moveset based around being a good zoner and edgeguarder with poor damage in neutral and lackluster combo potential and killing potential. As long as all characters have a baseline on what the game asks for, then you can make your fighters as crazy as possible. Look at Guilty Gear and how balanced it is even though their characters are vastly different from each other.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Fundamentally in a game like Smash super heavies are usually at a disadvantage. Smash offers a really open stage with multitudes of movement freedom that which no other fighter has. You have the stage but unlike other fighters you also have platforms at various positions, some move and differ in length. You have the space off stage which allow for many different interactions, including the ledge of stages. One key thing that helps characters out in such a free movement style game is speed. Characters who generally are able to get around faster tend to remain good characters than those who can't which are generally super heavies. Look at Fox and DK two 64 vets and look at their tier placings over each game you'll notice that Fox is always super good (aside Brawl where he was more average but still good) and DK is usually underwhelming (aside Smash 4 for reasons).

Super heavies are generally not going to have speed as an advantage which is fine you can alleviate this in other ways. I am not a fan of slapping super armor on everything and calling it a day or getting completely rid of traits that are supposed to balance heavies out (bigger and slower to trade for larger hitboxes and high damage moves) You can create creative super heavies much like Snake out of Dorf, D3, DK and Bowser and now Ridley. DK was given a stupid strong grab game and it helped him out tremendously in Smash 4 you can build off that for DK. You can turn Bowser into more of a fortress style character instead of just another big body grappler by improving his defensive options and reworking his moves to focus more on walling. You can turn D3 into the projectile heavy to assist with his very horrendous mobility issue by improving his Gordo game and fixing his hammer and I like what they are doing with Dorf by making him more of a bruiser by improving his speed while retaining his power.

 

[J0eyboi]

Something I've also noticed is that the heavies all feel incredibly homogenous.

Just like what @PURGE THEM LIKE THE said about heavies, they tend to have bad frame data, bad mobility, and bad landing options.

Why can't we have a heavy with good frame data?

Wario and Falcon.

Why can't we have a heavy with good range? (Snake doesn't count)

Shulk.

Light characters are hit-and-run fighters, combo monsters, and zoners alike. Why aren't heavies as varied?

They are.

I think what's really needed are some sort of systematic change to give heavies more DPS compared to their faster counterparts, and not by gutting the combo potential of the speedsters like in Brawl.

I don't know what world you live in, but I can't imagine it's this one. Heavies absolutely keep up in damage compared to their faster counterparts. A good Ike can get a kill off a few good reads, and his damage output is on the lower end. DK can literally get 50% off a grab with no room for executional errors if he's willing to put himself in disadvantage to do so, and 50% is only like 10% below the lower end of Ding Dong range.

On the individual character level, I would like to see heavies have better moves for knockdown and/or recovery pressure.

They do. For edgeguarding, at least. Ike can 2-frame basically every time with Eruption. Zard has Fair. Shulk has Fair. DDD has Fair, Bair, and Gordo. Ganon has Uair. DK has Bair and way more spikes than any character needs. Heavies don't have bad edgeguarding games, they have bad disadvantage states, which your proposed changes do nothing to alleviate.

 

[Quillion]

Heavies don't have bad edgeguarding games, they have bad disadvantage states, which your proposed changes do nothing to alleviate.

This means bad recovery states, bad knockdown states, and bad caught-in-a-combo states, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong here) To be honest, I'm not so sure we can outright *change* those bad disadvantage states without damaging the identity of the characters. A lot of these bad states are a function of how they have huge hitboxes, and we can't just make their hitboxes smaller.

At the very least, we know for a fact that they are changing the landing lag state across the board, so that's something.

 

[Scicky]

I think heavies are too varied in their flaws for there to be a quick fix. It's probably more down to Sakurai fearing that the characters will be too overpowered if given the right tools because of the absurd damage output of some of their moves, and overcorrecting because of that. If there's any commonality to the heavies flaws, it's how easily they're combo'd and how poor their recoveries are, making their weight less impressive. That being said, Bowser probably has one of the worst recoveries out of any of them and still places considerably higher than Charizard or Dedede.

Biggest thing is probably just improved frame data though.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Snake was good as a heavy because he had like 10 zillion projectiles that allowed him to camp, rather than be camped like all the other heavies. Bowser, DK, etc don't have any of that. If you gave DK all of Snake's projectiles ad take away all of Snake's, DK would be the better character. I think the answer is to give each of the heavies some type of fast projectile that prevents them from being camped.

if Diddy can store a banana why can't DK? Makes no sense,.

 

[Necro'lic]

I actually don't think projectiles are needed for anti-camping. Take a look at Pokken and how they deal with projectiles. They have a universal method of approaching in the Counter Attack Dash Cancel. Even projectile-less heavy characters like Duel Phase Machamp can work against projectiles because of this approaching tool. But they also have the height system and Machamp can roll under projectiles, so that's two ways.

An idea I've been pondering for a universal tool against projectiles is to have all dash attacks nullify projectiles entirely throughout their hitbox. Since dash attacks aren't exactly easy to spam for the most part, I think this can give them more purpose without making them ridiculous.

 

[Thinkaman]

With the possible (possible) exception of Needles, projectiles are in no way the limiting reagent heavies face in Smash 4 matchups.

It seems to always come back to disadvantage.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah projectiles are pretty weak overall in Smash. Pokken is a whole ‘nother ball game.

Which is honestly another thing that needs fixing but whatever I guess.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

quicker jumpsquats and lower landing lag are gonna give big characters a lot of help against projectiles, since jumping is typically too much of a commitment and heavies can't get anywhere fast with walking powershields. However, I think you'll get more mileage out of projectiles whenever they do hit due to more hitlag in general.

Here's my take on heavyweights in the demo:

: No more kills on a grab sucks but Donkey Kong's new tools look promising. Super Armor Headbutt can be used as a mixup on their landings, and maybe as a psuedo counter against linear recoveries that have a hitbox. Down B is now a sixth aerial that should set up combos on hit and be fairly safe on block due to having no landing lag. Giant Punch offstage is hype since he can B-Air into that, but I can't see his offstage edgeguards being a threat if his opponent recovers low. He can't dip too far offstage with laggy moves since his recovery is so poor. He's also packing a less commital dash attack and giant punch seems to take 4 frames to pull up shield while charging compared to 8. Altogether I'm not worried too much for DK's viability, but his weaknesses should still be easy to exploit.

I'm lowkey nervous about talking Ganon when there's always somebody coming in and linking me to a clip of his N-Air. Shorter jumpsquat helps him get to his less laggy aerials, but his movement stats don't look improved at all so he'll still be easy to wall out with sword swings and projectiles. I'm sure dash dancing is going to help him get more mileage out of his Dtilt, and Wizard's Foot looks way better to throw out now that it's as big of a commitment as flame choke. However, Ganoncide doesn't award the kill to him anymore, and if it's true that players can mash out of it midair then I will not fear this recovery option from him while edgeguarding. Altogether Ganon should have the most exploitable and ineffective recovery in Ultimate and I just can't seem him competing on the same level as most other characters. Dude's in trouble.

No more kills from Uthrow and I haven't seen any player Fortress Boost so his recovery height may have took a hit. His Up B does appear to have a sensible hitbox now so I'll be happy to at least trade with the opponent rather than lose to every aerial in the game. Bowser's run speed is excellent, so I think the move that will get the most mileage out of run canceling is Utilt. It reaches high and has enough disjoint to beat a Cloud D-Air. Probably also sets up for some new combos with the shorter jumpsquat. Usmash is also still invincible and kills super early. Also falling N-Air should be great now. Its four hitboxes are bizarre and difficult to perfect shield. Falling N-Air > B-Air should be a combo/occasional kill confirm on the whole cast now instead of just Sheik since we can get up there a whole 10 frames faster. New Dsmash looks very slow and Dtilt appears to have the old move's FAF so I can't imagine being able to followup on any trip. Bowser's still going to be a grappler thanks to Side B, which is now frame 6 on the ground and air. No more having to time the move to come out just before landing. It lost its lagless feature, but a frame 6 aerial command grab is frankly a broken mixup and he'll kill even earlier with it when there are platforms. Also now that grabs are nerfed across the board, Flying Slam is about as commital as the average dash grab. If Jab1 still confirms into Side B, then he'll enjoy an old kill confirm from before he went mainstream. I'm not convinced Bowser will be a top tier threat in Ultimate, but I would be shocked if he was low-mid and will probably land right next to DK again.

Wow you are nothing like Smash 4 ike on release. I still think his recovery is exploitable but having options is more than most heavyweights can say. I don't think he'll dominate the game but I'm definitely anticipating a lot of pocket Ikes.

Charizard: Rock Smash was dumb and I don't know why players miss it. Charizard doesn't need to justify his shortcomings now that he can switch to two other characters at almost no cost. Still the big guy's getting a ton of mileage off universal changes. Both his recovery moves have some armor and I expect a lot from his B-Air and F-Tilt. Charizard is still not great, but I don't see Squirtle or Ivysaur having an easy time killing, so the switch may often prove vital.

Super Missile looks like it will lead to a grab or air combo at close to mid range depending it hits or gets blocked. That's pretty much the only game changer for Samus that I can see and I doubt she'll find much success unless she's been given more tools. A better bomb, better throws, or better hitboxes on her normals would bring her up to speed, why is this so hard?

And anybody lighter than Samus and Ike I don't generally consider heavy even though I'm aware many characters come numerically close. Wario and ROB just don't exhibit similar qualities and weaknesses, and besides Link, none of them really felt like a heavyweight in practice. I can't see any of these heavyweights breaking high/top tier. But then again my only lock for top tier at this point is Ryu with all these unknowns.

 

[Quillion]

With the possible (possible) exception of Needles, projectiles are in no way the limiting reagent heavies face in Smash 4 matchups.

It seems to always come back to disadvantage.

Well, disadvantage and limited options.

As some have stated before, heavies in Smash 4 do have good kill confirms, but they're so predictable that it's easy to defend against.

 

[Necro'lic]

Finally finished that Samus balance "wish list" or "rebalance" or whatever you want to call it that I mentioned earlier. Not like it matters, but I had fun with it.

I know Samus isn't considered a "heavy" in the usual sense, but I still got my motivation to do this from this thread and maybe someone can have some mild amusement out of my crazy ideas.

I was gonna try and do this for every heavyweight I REALLY have ideas for. The next one was going to be either Dedede or Donkey Kong.

 

[J0eyboi]

quicker jumpsquats and lower landing lag are gonna give big characters a lot of help against projectiles, since jumping is typically too much of a commitment and heavies can't get anywhere fast with walking powershields. However, I think you'll get more mileage out of projectiles whenever they do hit due to more hitlag in general.

Here's my take on heavyweights in the demo:

: No more kills on a grab sucks but Donkey Kong's new tools look promising. Super Armor Headbutt can be used as a mixup on their landings, and maybe as a psuedo counter against linear recoveries that have a hitbox. Down B is now a sixth aerial that should set up combos on hit and be fairly safe on block due to having no landing lag. Giant Punch offstage is hype since he can B-Air into that, but I can't see his offstage edgeguards being a threat if his opponent recovers low. He can't dip too far offstage with laggy moves since his recovery is so poor. He's also packing a less commital dash attack and giant punch seems to take 4 frames to pull up shield while charging compared to 8. Altogether I'm not worried too much for DK's viability, but his weaknesses should still be easy to exploit.

I'm lowkey nervous about talking Ganon when there's always somebody coming in and linking me to a clip of his N-Air. Shorter jumpsquat helps him get to his less laggy aerials, but his movement stats don't look improved at all so he'll still be easy to wall out with sword swings and projectiles. I'm sure dash dancing is going to help him get more mileage out of his Dtilt, and Wizard's Foot looks way better to throw out now that it's as big of a commitment as flame choke. However, Ganoncide doesn't award the kill to him anymore, and if it's true that players can mash out of it midair then I will not fear this recovery option from him while edgeguarding. Altogether Ganon should have the most exploitable and ineffective recovery in Ultimate and I just can't seem him competing on the same level as most other characters. Dude's in trouble.

No more kills from Uthrow and I haven't seen any player Fortress Boost so his recovery height may have took a hit. His Up B does appear to have a sensible hitbox now so I'll be happy to at least trade with the opponent rather than lose to every aerial in the game. Bowser's run speed is excellent, so I think the move that will get the most mileage out of run canceling is Utilt. It reaches high and has enough disjoint to beat a Cloud D-Air. Probably also sets up for some new combos with the shorter jumpsquat. Usmash is also still invincible and kills super early. Also falling N-Air should be great now. Its four hitboxes are bizarre and difficult to perfect shield. Falling N-Air > B-Air should be a combo/occasional kill confirm on the whole cast now instead of just Sheik since we can get up there a whole 10 frames faster. New Dsmash looks very slow and Dtilt appears to have the old move's FAF so I can't imagine being able to followup on any trip. Bowser's still going to be a grappler thanks to Side B, which is now frame 6 on the ground and air. No more having to time the move to come out just before landing. It lost its lagless feature, but a frame 6 aerial command grab is frankly a broken mixup and he'll kill even earlier with it when there are platforms. Also now that grabs are nerfed across the board, Flying Slam is about as commital as the average dash grab. If Jab1 still confirms into Side B, then he'll enjoy an old kill confirm from before he went mainstream. I'm not convinced Bowser will be a top tier threat in Ultimate, but I would be shocked if he was low-mid and will probably land right next to DK again.

Wow you are nothing like Smash 4 ike on release. I still think his recovery is exploitable but having options is more than most heavyweights can say. I don't think he'll dominate the game but I'm definitely anticipating a lot of pocket Ikes.

Charizard: Rock Smash was dumb and I don't know why players miss it. Charizard doesn't need to justify his shortcomings now that he can switch to two other characters at almost no cost. Still the big guy's getting a ton of mileage off universal changes. Both his recovery moves have some armor and I expect a lot from his B-Air and F-Tilt. Charizard is still not great, but I don't see Squirtle or Ivysaur having an easy time killing, so the switch may often prove vital.

Super Missile looks like it will lead to a grab or air combo at close to mid range depending it hits or gets blocked. That's pretty much the only game changer for Samus that I can see and I doubt she'll find much success unless she's been given more tools. A better bomb, better throws, or better hitboxes on her normals would bring her up to speed, why is this so hard?

And anybody lighter than Samus and Ike I don't generally consider heavy even though I'm aware many characters come numerically close. Wario and ROB just don't exhibit similar qualities and weaknesses, and besides Link, none of them really felt like a heavyweight in practice. I can't see any of these heavyweights breaking high/top tier. But then again my only lock for top tier at this point is Ryu with all these unknowns.

Yeah, Ganon looks kinda terrible again. His run speed isn't much better, his recovery is still awful, and many of his key moves were nerfed (Dtilt has 3 frames more endlag, Uair comes out 2 frames slower (it does last longer, so take that as you will), new Usmash is way worse than his old one, and new Fsmash is too slow to punish tech roll in after flame choke). He does a **** ton of damage, and he can definitely get followups off dthrow, which is nice, but I don't think it's anywhere near enough.

Edit: Never mind Ganon can cancel up taunt way earlier instant top tier

Edit 2: Never mind, all taunts are cancellable way earlier. Also this man is ****ing insane

 

[Quillion]

So it seems that MockRock has put out a video about this issue.

So it seems even he thinks that heavies are a difficult beast for Smash-based platform fighters. He covers the things we've talked about: they're inherently limited due to mobility, and Smash 4 heavies are overreliant on a single, effective, but predictable kill confirm for pretty much everything.

According to his analysis, it seems the most effective ways to balance heavies are to shrink the speed gap between the fastest and slowest characters and giving them gimmicks to overcome their weaknesses.

Ironically, Snake, which he considers an "accidental" heavy, fits firmly in the latter.

 

[Necro'lic]

So it seems that MockRock has put out a video about this issue.

So it seems even he thinks that heavies are a difficult beast for Smash-based platform fighters. He covers the things we've talked about: they're inherently limited due to mobility, and Smash 4 heavies are overreliant on a single, effective, but predictable kill confirm for pretty much everything.

According to his analysis, it seems the most effective ways to balance heavies are to shrink the speed gap between the fastest and slowest characters and giving them gimmicks to overcome their weaknesses.

Ironically, Snake, which he considers an "accidental" heavy, fits firmly in the latter.

Another thing he noted, and one that I've been saying, is to make sure the heavies have options, and these usually come from not just movement, but frame data as well. Movement can give them options, but gimmicks definitely can as well. Honestly, I think overall heavies still shouldn't be treated as the same archetype. Note in his examples, the heavies do vastly different things. In Rivals, the bear works much like Empoleon in Pokken. Being slow, but needing to set up a movement enhancer to become ridiculous. Even with this though, Empoleon is still not the best character in the game, but with his recent buffs giving him MANY more options to get to the ice sliding mechanic, I think he will become actually scary soon enough. Also in Rivals is the wolf that just has a ton of projectile ability, something Smash heavies usually lack as well, besides Snake.

But his fear of homogenizing the fighters to be more balanced is honestly unfounded. Every fighter should have a basic set of options. It doesn't mean those options will be the exact same effectiveness throughout all of them. For example, I advocated for a standardized roll frame data for every character, but the variance would be in roll distance. This way, things that rolls are used for on a basic level will be usable by everyone, but some rolls will be better at general movement than others, and some might be better against certain characters than others in certain situations. Example: if Mario has a 100% distance roll, then Samus would have maybe 125% while Jigglypuff would have 80%. Both would have the same invincibility frames and everything, but Jiggly would have a worse roll to signify her lower than average ground game, while Samus would have a better roll to signify her ability to gain distance, zone, and escape pressure.

I'm probably gonna try to do another heavy character "makeover" like I did with Samus for fun. I think Dedede will be next since I love him. I think a good way to balance him to be neutral focused without removing his slow speed would be to give him regular projectiles.

 

[Quillion]

Another thing he noted, and one that I've been saying, is to make sure the heavies have options, and these usually come from not just movement, but frame data as well. Movement can give them options, but gimmicks definitely can as well. Honestly, I think overall heavies still shouldn't be treated as the same archetype. Note in his examples, the heavies do vastly different things. In Rivals, the bear works much like Empoleon in Pokken. Being slow, but needing to set up a movement enhancer to become ridiculous. Even with this though, Empoleon is still not the best character in the game, but with his recent buffs giving him MANY more options to get to the ice sliding mechanic, I think he will become actually scary soon enough. Also in Rivals is the wolf that just has a ton of projectile ability, something Smash heavies usually lack as well, besides Snake.

But his fear of homogenizing the fighters to be more balanced is honestly unfounded. Every fighter should have a basic set of options. It doesn't mean those options will be the exact same effectiveness throughout all of them. For example, I advocated for a standardized roll frame data for every character, but the variance would be in roll distance. This way, things that rolls are used for on a basic level will be usable by everyone, but some rolls will be better at general movement than others, and some might be better against certain characters than others in certain situations. Example: if Mario has a 100% distance roll, then Samus would have maybe 125% while Jigglypuff would have 80%. Both would have the same invincibility frames and everything, but Jiggly would have a worse roll to signify her lower than average ground game, while Samus would have a better roll to signify her ability to gain distance, zone, and escape pressure.

I'm probably gonna try to do another heavy character "makeover" like I did with Samus for fun. I think Dedede will be next since I love him. I think a good way to balance him to be neutral focused without removing his slow speed would be to give him regular projectiles.

I do agree that heavies need a basic set of tools. Sure, they can kill at low percents, but they still can't really kill from 0%. Also, they need to put in a lot more work to get opponents to kill percent than the speedsters do since heavies tend to emphasize unsafe attacks and limited followups. But I also think that the fear that characters would feel a bit more homogenous is a valid concern. There would be little point to playing as speedsters for their combo potential if the heavies can do the same thing.

This is partly why I advocate for hitstun-knockback separation. With it, heavies can still combo, but their moves would still have the "crushing" feel that makes them heavy.
----
In other news, it seems that we're getting a new heavy: King K. Rool. Surprisingly for a heavy, he has actual projectiles!

Along with that, he has super armor and a counter both using his armored belly. His recovery even travels a good distance.

Kinda makes me wish Bowser's Fire Breath was fireballs and not his nigh-useless stream of fire.

 

[LancerStaff]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but K. Rool’s projectiles look pretty bad. The blunderbuss is very slow, and the crown has little range for how slow it is. Kinda just looks like you’ll attempt them and get hit for it.

His recovery also looks pretty bad. It seems to be another Winged Pikmin/Duck Flight type thing with poor speed and few/no hitboxes.

The armored/invincible Dash Attack... It’s something, I suppose. But unless it does literally everything for him I don’t think it means much, and I also doubt they’re going to make “dash attack: the character” either. His movement speed seems low overall.

 

[lordvaati]

Dark Samus though...has Esam losing his damn mind. He's saying just with her new roll alone she may be a whole tier higher then Vanilla Samus.

 

[Thinkaman]

"What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?"

Not having a rage toggle.

 

[Necro'lic]

"What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?"

Not having a rage toggle.

Well there's this interesting post on reddit supporting the Final Smash meter as basically a "better form of rage". Very interesting and brings up good points on favoring heavies better than rage currently does.

 

[Untouch]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but K. Rool’s projectiles look pretty bad. The blunderbuss is very slow, and the crown has little range for how slow it is. Kinda just looks like you’ll attempt them and get hit for it.

His recovery also looks pretty bad. It seems to be another Winged Pikmin/Duck Flight type thing with poor speed and few/no hitboxes.

The armored/invincible Dash Attack... It’s something, I suppose. But unless it does literally everything for him I don’t think it means much, and I also doubt they’re going to make “dash attack: the character” either. His movement speed seems low overall.

Going over his footage a lot he doesn't seem THAT slow, I don't expect him to be more than mid tier but he seems to be starting off better than other heavyweights because he has much better defensive options.

• Can absorb projectiles, comes out pretty slow so I don't think this'll be major.
• Blunderbuss command grabs, it'll be much harder to approach after he fires the cannonball, may force shield pressure.
• Recovery seems to cover a large horizontal and vertical distance, if he can attack out of it like Snake it'll be a great option.
• Crown throw isn't as slow as it seems, it has almost identical frame data compared to the boomerang, and may be able to be picked up again and Z dropped (unlikely but villager's pocket causes it to act like an item so...)
• Counter. Only other heavyweight with a counter is Ike.
• Fair comes out on frame 10, the endlag on it is pretty brutal though.

Not a lot of footage to judge right now though, this is what I've got from analysing footage we have.

 

[Thinkaman]

Does anyone actually believe that it's the heavies--and not the traditional-top-tier combo archetypes--that will be the ones who can confirm into final smashes???

 

[Untouch]

Yeah final smashes will hurt heavies more than anything. Just a free kill option for lighter characters that may not have kill options.

 

[DJ3DS]

Does anyone actually believe that it's the heavies--and not the traditional-top-tier combo archetypes--that will be the ones who can confirm into final smashes???

I've seen some people hype over the fact ROB can confirm into his off of a grab, without investigating further how it works.

It's bad. In Sm4sh the multihit doesn't unbury the opponent, meaning it won't kill Bowser at the ledge unless they're at around 140% for the final hit - and that's the max strength version.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Let's not bring final smash meter discussion into this thread if we can help it. I'm still trying to detox.

So we don't know Simon's weight statistics, but I'm pretty ready to consider him a heavyweight. His fastest start up moves are Upper cut at 6 and Dtilt at 7, with all his whip moves being frame 12 or longer to come out. Frame 12 Jab is the longest in the game now even before you notice they brought Zeldas from 11 to 4. He also appears to have pretty long startup on grabs and long aerial landing lag (footage of richter comboing a 16 landing lag N-Air and 20 landing lag F-air). High startup on moves appears to be Simon's key weakness for such great range and that's a common thought process in heavyweight design. His projectile specials look great for traps, but Snake is another heavyweight with a comparable array, as well as Samus and Link if you consider them heavyweights. Simon's Up B looks very okay for recovery - a slower Marth Up B, but he's also rocking a tether recovery (with B-Air, interestingly enough, presumably F-Air and U-air as well) and that's going to be a vital option. Overall looks like a fleshed out character.

 

[LancerStaff]

Does anyone actually believe that it's the heavies--and not the traditional-top-tier combo archetypes--that will be the ones who can confirm into final smashes???

I think the Final Smash itself matters more than the character... Dark Pit can true combo into his Final Smash in Smash 4 with basically anything, *cough*ftilt*cough* though it is an infinite range laser.

So while it’ll likely help K. Rool and DK, (and Ridley? even though he’s probably not heavy and I don’t quite remember what it was) characters like Bowser are going to be outta luck. And they’re going to have to contend with the Dark Pit/Ike/Corrin/Clouds that can also likely confirm into their Final Smashes and be much more solid characters overall. Oh, and Bayonetta. How she hasn’t just shut this all down yet is baffling.

It’s just a really desperate and cornball idea regardless.

 

[meleebrawler]

Dark Samus though...has Esam losing his damn mind. He's saying just with her new roll alone she may be a whole tier higher then Vanilla Samus.

ESAM wasn't the only one, and I was talking about Dark Samus' dash attack being more like Samus' dash attack from SSB4 before ESAM made that video. Check some of my posts around the room.



I ended up with 42 frames for Dark Samus' roll. Samus' roll in SSBU from the Samus versus Ridley battle from the 2018 invitational is 38 frames. It appears to have a 10.53% increase in frames on the second roll, however, making Samus' second roll 42 frames. Now, consider in the video that Dark Samus air-dodged first before rolling. It would appear then that the dodging mechanic includes dodge, air-dodge, and rolling as all one and the same, as ZeRo has suspected. This means Dark Samus' roll may just be the same as Samus' roll in terms of frames. It just looks different.

Samus may be closer to being a heavy in the traditional sense now than we realize, she has increased knockback on a number of her moves. By contrast Dark Samus appears to have taken the combo-heavy route with how her trailers seem to focus on them, but will probably have greater trouble KOing.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Samus may be closer to being a heavy in the traditional sense now than we realize, she has increased knockback on a number of her moves. By contrast Dark Samus appears to have taken the combo-heavy route with how her trailers seem to focus on them, but will probably have greater trouble KOing.

Whoa, slow down there. Those cute little trailers aren't intended to give you the full picture. And no Echo is so different from their original. According to Smash Directs and other official footage, popping Villager's balloons without hitting Villager himself is the easiest thing in the world and Ike's Aether super armor makes it perfect as an onstage attack,

 

[meleebrawler]

Whoa, slow down there. Those cute little trailers aren't intended to give you the full picture. And no Echo is so different from their original. According to Smash Directs and other official footage, popping Villager's balloons without hitting Villager himself is the easiest thing in the world and Ike's Aether super armor makes it perfect as an onstage attack,

Look at Dark Samus's dash attack. Does it not have much lower base knockback than anything we've currently seen from regular Samus? Of course I wouldn't go so far as to say the "combos" in the trailer were true, but even if an echo's moves are fundamentally the same as their counterparts, subtle changes in knockback can still significantly alter how they're used.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Look at Dark Samus's dash attack. Does it not have much lower base knockback than anything we've currently seen from regular Samus? Of course I wouldn't go so far as to say the "combos" in the trailer were true, but even if an echo's moves are fundamentally the same as their counterparts, subtle changes in knockback can still significantly alter how they're used.

This dash attack is on Mega Man, presumably at 0% damage. I can't find an example of Samus doing the same, but here's the same move on Inkling at 25%. More knockback, but I doubt Inkling is anywhere near as much combo food as Mega Man is in terms of weight and fall speed. I can definitely believe it's the same move. I'm also willing to bet Samus' still has a weaker late hit of dash attack, and that's what you're aiming for anyway. Alas, I have no examples of that in Ultimate.

Also no way that dark samus dash attack would combo at such low percents with a frame 8 hit. That's 33 endlag. Unsafe on hit keeping them that close to you with such a laggy attack. It's just a cool looking "combo" they chose for the trailer, not anything that would work in a real setting.

 

[Crystanium]

And no Echo is so different from their original.

A different dash attack and bomb angle aren't that different from characters like Pit and Dark Pit, whose arrows and arm attacks are different. And with the inclusion of Chrom, who is an echo of Roy, but with the up special of Ike, it's not surprising for Dark Samus to have slight variations. After all, even Sakurai himself said, "[Chrom and Dark Samus are] each slightly different than the fighters they're based on, so pick whoever you enjoy most."

This dash attack is on Mega Man, presumably at 0% damage. I can't find an example of Samus doing the same, but here's the same move on Inkling at 25%. More knockback, but I doubt Inkling is anywhere near as much combo food as Mega Man is in terms of weight and fall speed. I can definitely believe it's the same move. I'm also willing to bet Samus' still has a weaker late hit of dash attack, and that's what you're aiming for anyway. Alas, I have no examples of that in Ultimate.

Ganondorf is at 19%. Samus uses dash attack. Look at the angle and knock-back. Dark Samus' dash attack doesn't appear to be a guarantee in comboing, either, at least not with u-air. F-air might be a possibility, but no one has played as Dark Samus to confirm this.

Also no way that dark samus dash attack would combo at such low percents with a frame 8 hit. That's 33 endlag. Unsafe on hit keeping them that close to you with such a laggy attack. It's just a cool looking "combo" they chose for the trailer, not anything that would work in a real setting.

Samus' dash attack in SSB4 is 40 frames. (Kurogane Hammer says 34, but I've found some inconsistencies regarding frames.) Early active hitbox is 8 frames. A normal dash attack has an active hitbox on frame 10. A late one starts at frame 14. Yet, Samus is able to combo consistently with a dash attack compared to a down throw. You're neglecting hitstun as a factor to Dark Samus' dash attack.

 

[J0eyboi]

Samus' dash attack in SSB4 is 40 frames. (Kurogane Hammer says 34, but I've found some inconsistencies regarding frames.)

It's 33.

Early active hitbox is 8 frames. A normal dash attack has an active hitbox on frame 10. A late one starts at frame 14. Yet, Samus is able to combo consistently with a dash attack compared to a down throw. You're neglecting hitstun as a factor to Dark Samus' dash attack.

He's not. In order for dash attack to have enough hitstun for a frame 8 hit to combo, it would have to do over 100 knockback, which is usually too much knockback to combo off but more importantly is definitely not the amount of knockback the dash attack in the trailer did. And that's assuming hitstun is unchanged from Melee, which basically everyone says isn't the case.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

A different dash attack and bomb angle aren't that different from characters like Pit and Dark Pit, whose arrows and arm attacks are different. And with the inclusion of Chrom, who is an echo of Roy, but with the up special of Ike, it's not surprising for Dark Samus to have slight variations. After all, even Sakurai himself said, "[Chrom and Dark Samus are] each slightly different than the fighters they're based on, so pick whoever you enjoy most."

I wasn't doubting one or two moves might be different in such subtle ways. I just took issue with saying "Dark Samus is Samus but more combo focused and has trouble KOing" based on precious few minutes of footage where we can't see damage values to know if her attacks are behaving any differently than Samus. Because such a statement might be true (it sort of describes the relationship between Mario and Doc in Smash 4), but there is no evidence yet to support such a claim. I was telling them to slow down before they make up a character that doesn't exist. Or else everybody gets disappointed.

Samus' dash attack in SSB4 is 40 frames. (Kurogane Hammer says 34, but I've found some inconsistencies regarding frames.) Early active hitbox is 8 frames. A normal dash attack has an active hitbox on frame 10. A late one starts at frame 14. Yet, Samus is able to combo consistently with a dash attack compared to a down throw. You're neglecting hitstun as a factor to Dark Samus' dash attack.

You must be mistaken, I've manually counted Samus' frame data in Smash 4, and have rerecorded her dash attack to count again. That's a 33 frame move. So Kurogane's 34 FAF is accurate. Samus' dash attack used to be four frames before patch 1.15, but I assume that's not what you mean.

 

[Crystanium]

You must be mistaken, I've manually counted Samus' frame data in Smash 4, and have rerecorded her dash attack to count again. That's a 33 frame move. So Kurogane's 34 FAF is accurate. Samus' dash attack used to be four frames before patch 1.15, but I assume that's not what you mean.

How did you get the number of frames? What video(s) did you use?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

How did you get the number of frames? What video(s) did you use?

My own recording. Here I uploaded it.