What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?

[Crystanium]

My own recording. Here I uploaded it.

The video isn't showing up for some reason. Is there a difference in frames between a dash attack that doesn't connect and a dash attack that does connect?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The video isn't showing up for some reason. Is there a difference in frames between a dash attack that doesn't connect and a dash attack that does connect?

Ah, I didn't know the difference between unlisted and private. Try again.

 

[Crystanium]

Ah, I didn't know the difference between unlisted and private. Try again.

There we go. So, I must have ended up with more frames because Samus was hitting her opponent. All right.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

There we go. So, I must have ended up with more frames because Samus was hitting her opponent. All right.

yeah...don't count hitlag. Wait for the frame where the attacker continues their attack animation and then resume counting.

 

[lordvaati]

K. Rool gameplay to observe.

Im liking the cannonball options.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

K. Rool gameplay to observe.

Im liking the cannonball options.

Seems like they made the crown attack with too much start-up.

 

[Quillion]

Seems like they made the crown attack with too much start-up.

Heavies having bad or no projectiles seems to be a Smash tradition at this point.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Heavies having bad or near-useless projectiles seems to be a Smash tradition at this point.

On the contrary; I am quite surprised that his cannonball floats and can be angled. It seems clearly superior to Bowser Jrs.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Seems like they made the crown attack with too much start-up.

26. 1 frame faster than Link's Boomerang. But not with the godlike low endlag of Link's boomerang. Still, slow moving projectiles that return are still typically top of the line tools for controlling space and I expect him to get plenty of use out of this. Based on that footage, K rool can move at about the same point the crown finishes reaching it's full distance before returning.

 

[C-G]

Heavies having bad or no projectiles seems to be a Smash tradition at this point.

Heavies have traditionally had superfluous projectiles. No one cares about Flamethrower/Fire Breath because you get nothing off them. D3's Gordos being reflected by literally everything meant they were impossible to use in neutral, but were still mad useful in their own way.

As it stands, K Rool's projectiles not only serve a purpose, but are incredibly strong in their own right. Both of his projectiles are active for a ton of time, and while the Blunderbuss is...questionable at the moment, the Krown's zone control is top notch.

Also, for those cautious about it being an item: should it be catchable and this leads to it's usefulness decreasing, throw the Krown backwards, then approach with it when it's boomeranging to you. It stays on a direct line instead of going to K Rool, so they'll have to choose between catching it and dealing with K Rool.

 

[lordvaati]

indeed. Also can't have heavies have too solid projectile options, lest we accidentally turn them into this guy

 

[Quillion]

indeed. Also can't have heavies have too solid projectile options, lest we accidentally turn them into this guy
View attachment 159043

Ah, Sentinel. I've never played Mahvel before, yet I still know about him.

Seriously though, why not have a heavy with a great projectile/zoning game? I think it absolutely can work.

 

[C-G]

indeed. Also can't have heavies have too solid projectile options, lest we accidentally turn them into this guy
View attachment 159043

Like anyone played MvC2 Sentinel as a zoner when he all that fly/unfly nonesense.

Remember, Snake was heavier than DDD in Brawl (for some reason), so he'd count as a Super Heavyweight

 

[Quillion]

Remember, Snake was heavier than DDD in Brawl (for some reason), so he'd count as a Super Heavyweight

Except Brawl Snake is probably the most poorly designed heavy in all of Smash, and a lot of things about him were visibly changed at the last minute.

But yes, I really would like a well-designed heavy with a good projectile game.

 

[Lyserdon]

Heavies have traditionally had superfluous projectiles. No one cares about Flamethrower/Fire Breath because you get nothing off them. D3's Gordos being reflected by literally everything meant they were impossible to use in neutral, but were still mad useful in their own way.

As it stands, K Rool's projectiles not only serve a purpose, but are incredibly strong in their own right. Both of his projectiles are active for a ton of time, and while the Blunderbuss is...questionable at the moment, the Krown's zone control is top notch.

Also, for those cautious about it being an item: should it be catchable and this leads to it's usefulness decreasing, throw the Krown backwards, then approach with it when it's boomeranging to you. It stays on a direct line instead of going to K Rool, so they'll have to choose between catching it and dealing with K Rool.

Just want to chime in and say ask any Zard main how they feel about Flamethrower. It's definitely not your standard projectile. I don't even really consider it one tbh. But it's legit one of his best moves. Solid zoning tool when used properly and depending on matchup, free damage at the ledge or a free stock. Firebreath is also all those things except worse in almost every way.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Is Varia Suit Samus considered a heavy character? Just curious if I have a personal stake in this discussion :-D

 

[Necro'lic]

Is Varia Suit Samus considered a heavy character? Just curious if I have a personal stake in this discussion :-D

Technically yes, but it seems this discussion seems to be less about weight of characters as much as playstyle and "feel", and since like Yoshi, Samus is heavy yet floaty, some people will dismiss her as a heavy character at all, despite being on the higher end of the weight charts. I personally consder her a heavyweight, but without the traditional playstyle of a heavyweight, again like Yoshi or even Captain Falcon or Snake too for that matter.

Lyserdon

As you can tell from my profile, I am a Zard main in Smash 4, and will be a Pokemon Trainer main in Ultimate, so I can give my personal, unprofessional opinion on Flamethrower. It is good for what it does, which is control space in front of Charizard, but I would definitely like some improvements. Namely, more time before it fully peters out, more angles, and less endlag. But overall, a pretty solid move. And I agree Bowser's equivalent is much less useful, and that's a problem too. However, I wouldn't call Flamethrower a projectile as much as a VERY long disjoint lol. Still achieves the same result of a projectile though in terms of space control.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Technically yes, but it seems this discussion seems to be less about weight of characters as much as playstyle and "feel", and since like Yoshi, Samus is heavy yet floaty, some people will dismiss her as a heavy character at all, despite being on the higher end of the weight charts. I personally consder her a heavyweight, but without the traditional playstyle of a heavyweight, again like Yoshi or even Captain Falcon or Snake too for that matter.

For all my whining about ZSS being flattened, I usually end up playing Samus more anyway, because I find her heavy yet floaty physics make her much more forgiving for casual play. Her specials are great zoning tools if I find myself outclassed or outgunned.

 

[Necro'lic]

For all my whining about ZSS being flattened, I usually end up playing Samus more anyway, because I find her heavy yet floaty physics make her much more forgiving for casual play. Her specials are great zoning tools if I find myself outclassed or outgunned.

Shameless self "promotion", but maybe you can check out this rebalancing/reworking/redesigning thread I made for Samus. Note it involves a LOT of new complicated moves, but it solidifies her zoner status even more than it does now while also referencing her games even more. Hopefully you find it at least entertaining.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Shameless self "promotion", but maybe you can check out this rebalancing/reworking/redesigning thread I made for Samus. Note it involves a LOT of new complicated moves, but it solidifies her zoner status even more than it does now while also referencing her games even more. Hopefully you find it at least entertaining.

There’s a heck of a lot here, so you’re going to be waiting a while for my feedback, sorry :-D

 

[Quillion]

As you can tell from my profile, I am a Zard main in Smash 4, and will be a Pokemon Trainer main in Ultimate, so I can give my personal, unprofessional opinion on Flamethrower. It is good for what it does, which is control space in front of Charizard, but I would definitely like some improvements. Namely, more time before it fully peters out, more angles, and less endlag. But overall, a pretty solid move. And I agree Bowser's equivalent is much less useful, and that's a problem too. However, I wouldn't call Flamethrower a projectile as much as a VERY long disjoint lol. Still achieves the same result of a projectile though in terms of space control.

Completely agree with your potential buffs on Flamethrower and Fire Breath. It honestly could be a good ledge pressure and edgeguarding tool if it weren't for its endlag and slow angling.

I'm also in support of integrating Flame Shot into the move (tap B for shot, hold B for stream), but that's a topic for another time.

 

[Octorockandroll]

Guys, let's be honest, K. Rool is gonna make heavies deadly. His mobility, normals and ridiculous pivot grab range are you going to make him an absolute beast to fight against.

 

[DJ3DS]

Guys, let's be honest, K. Rool is gonna make heavies deadly. His mobility, normals and ridiculous pivot grab range are you going to make him an absolute beast to fight against.

It feels a little premature to talk about his normals when we've seen absolutely none of his tilts.

I'm very excited for K Rool either way, but when we've not even seen half of his moveset we don't really have a clue.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah all we've seen are some grabs, neutral and side special, and K Rool's aerials. The aerials look par or worse than Bowser, Dedede, or Ganondorf's in direct comparisons. But his bowser esque movement stats look promising. The crown looked pretty good initially, but it occurs to me you can dash attack on reaction to both hit K Rool and grab the crown out of the air which is a problem Link never has to deal with. Definitely curious if he'll have any good dash cancel options, or if that Uthrow can kill on top platforms Charizard style, or if his moves have limb intangibility. But for now nothing about K Rool is something you can point to and say "this is something no heavyweight has"

 

[C-G]

Yeah all we've seen are some grabs, neutral and side special, and K Rool's aerials. The aerials look par or worse than Bowser, Dedede, or Ganondorf's in direct comparisons. But his bowser esque movement stats look promising. The crown looked pretty good initially, but it occurs to me you can dash attack on reaction to both hit K Rool and grab the crown out of the air which is a problem Link never has to deal with. Definitely curious if he'll have any good dash cancel options, or if that Uthrow can kill on top platforms Charizard style, or if his moves have limb intangibility. But for now nothing about K Rool is something you can point to and say "this is something no heavyweight has"

You shouldn't compare it to Link's Boomerang. It seems like the obvious connection and I don't fault you for making the connection, but there are a few important factors separating the two. Link's Boomerang would home back into Link most of the time, while the Krown travels a set, slightly arcing but linear path and it's up to K Rool to catch it. This can make it a better tool for controlling a certain part of the screen (most notably the ground platform) than Link's Boomerang and more like Simon's Cross. I mentioned it earlier, but this allows K Rool to throw it backwards and approach with it instead of having to throw it towards the opponent like Link has to. The fact that it's an item doesn't bother me unless what you say is true. If it's not, the Krown being an items can still lead to forcing your opponent to make a choice.

 

[Octorockandroll]

It's not true at all that we haven't seen more of K.Rool's nornals. They were in that demo video nintendo UK put out a week or two ago.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You shouldn't compare it to Link's Boomerang. It seems like the obvious connection and I don't fault you for making the connection, but there are a few important factors separating the two. Link's Boomerang would home back into Link most of the time, while the Krown travels a set, slightly arcing but linear path and it's up to K Rool to catch it. This can make it a better tool for controlling a certain part of the screen (most notably the ground platform) than Link's Boomerang and more like Simon's Cross. I mentioned it earlier, but this allows K Rool to throw it backwards and approach with it instead of having to throw it towards the opponent like Link has to. The fact that it's an item doesn't bother me unless what you say is true. If it's not, the Krown being an items can still lead to forcing your opponent to make a choice.

The comparison would still be more apt than to any other move in the game if it didn't home in to K Rool. But I think it might based on this clip. You can see it angle up as it passes under K Rool, then down again as he's landing and it goes completely off stage. Interestingly, the crown does not return to K Rool's possesion upon hitting a stage boundary, but rather reappears above K rool as an item that he will automatically collect if it touches him.

Catching the crown accidentally as you dash attack or aerial K Rool is one risk we can anticipate. But the crown also travels so slowly I wonder if you can block it and then shield jump and z catch the item before it gets too far away from you. However deep the counterplay to crown is, there's a reason why item projectiles never reach the same threat level as regular projectiles.

 

[C-G]

The comparison would still be more apt than to any other move in the game if it didn't home in to K Rool. But I think it might based on this clip. You can see it angle up as it passes under K Rool, then down again as he's landing and it goes completely off stage. Interestingly, the crown does not return to K Rool's possesion upon hitting a stage boundary, but rather reappears above K rool as an item that he will automatically collect if it touches him.

It may angle towards K Rool (if that), but with Link's Boomerang you have to work pretty hard for it to miss you. The Krown is very easy to straightup dodge.
The comparison would be better to Simon's Cross over anything else, to be honest.

Catching the crown accidentally as you dash attack or aerial K Rool is one risk we can anticipate. But the crown also travels so slowly I wonder if you can block it and then shield jump and z catch the item before it gets too far away from you. However deep the counterplay to crown is, there's a reason why item projectiles never reach the same threat level as regular projectiles.

Between Snake Grenades and Diddy Banana, I think this is pretty false. I also have a theory that you can't actually hurt him with his Krown, as we have this clip of an animation K Rool doesn't use when he a) Catches the Krown normally or b) when it respawns near him and he just picks it up. With those two instances, along with the clipping of that scene, the third most likely scenario is an opponent throwing the Krown back to him.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The comparison would be better to Simon's Cross over anything else, to be honest.

Maybe but we know few hard facts about the cross like whether it can be caught as an item or if it disappears after a set period of time unlike boomerang that must reach a stage boundary. Looks good though. Less startup and more endlag than Link's move.

as we have this clip of an animation K Rool doesn't use when he a) Catches the Krown normally or b) when it respawns near him and he just picks it up. With those two instances, along with the clipping of that scene, the third most likely scenario is an opponent throwing the Krown back to him.

Frame by frame that clip and you'll see K Rool starts the animation of catching the crown before the camera switches to the zoomed in shot. There's no editing magic going on here. The animation will play if K Rool is idle once the crown returns, just like Boomerang.

And let me clarify right now that I'm not picking on K Rool because I think he's bad. I'm just saying he looks like his moves were designed in strict comparison to other existing heavy weights. He's got Dedede's Nair but it hits them away instead of up so it won't combo as well. He's got Bowser's Fair but it's slower, a smaller hitbox, and doesn't auto cancel from short hop. And his Bair just looks like Dedede's Smash 4 Bair but it starts top down instead of down up. So I wouldn't judge him as being particularly worse or better until we see some moves that do look particularly good. Too many casual observers of smash seeing a heavyweight for the first time and saying "wooooow he's so much better than the others" after so little footage of a match that ends with a final smash. Like I said earlier, wait to see if any of his grounded moves are good, if his throws are threatening beyond high damage, or if any of his attacks have considerable disjoint or good frame data. That recovery move also looks concerning. It's viability lives or dies on whether there's a protective hitbox.

 

[J0eyboi]

Guys, let's be honest, K. Rool is gonna make heavies deadly. His mobility, normals and ridiculous pivot grab range are you going to make him an absolute beast to fight against.

Oh wow, good mobility, good normals, and a great pivot grab? That doesn't remind me of any heavies I know, no sir.

Between Snake Grenades and Diddy Banana, I think this is pretty false.

Some item projectiles are good, yeah, but being catchable by the opponent is not a good thing for any projectile. Things like Mechakoopa, new Link bomb, and banana especially suffer from catchability, as they would all provide completely broken levels of stage control were they not.

 

[Octorockandroll]

Oh wow, good mobility, good normals, and a great pivot grab? That doesn't remind me of any heavies I know, no sir.



Some item projectiles are good, yeah, but being catchable by the opponent is not a good thing for any projectile. Things like Mechakoopa, new Link bomb, and banana especially suffer from catchability, as they would all provide completely broken levels of stage control were they not.

You know just because a few heavies in the past have had those qualities doesn't invalidate K.Rool having them all at once and in better forms. Have you even seen his demo footage? If you have any observations based on the actual game, I'd sure rather hear those than this idiocy.

 

[Necro'lic]

You know just because a few heavies in the past have had those qualities doesn't invalidate K.Rool having them all at once and in better forms. Have you even seen his demo footage? If you have any observations based on the actual game, I'd sure rather hear those than this idiocy.

I think the problem is that we've all been hurt so many times with subpar heavies throughout the series that no one wants to believe that a heavyweight is actually good because it's far worse to have hopes crushed than to have none at all.

Honestly, as much as I love the buffs to heavyweights, most of them are universal for everyone, so I can't really get my hopes up, no matter how hype KKR looks.

 

[Octorockandroll]

I think the problem is that we've all been hurt so many times with subpar heavies throughout the series that no one wants to believe that a heavyweight is actually good because it's far worse to have hopes crushed than to have none at all.

Honestly, as much as I love the buffs to heavyweights, most of them are universal for everyone, so I can't really get my hopes up, no matter how hype KKR looks.

Okay yeah, that certainly makes more sense. By that same token though, I have more faith that we'll get viable heavyweights here, since not only does K rool look good but Smash 4 brought a couple of heavies up to mid tier meaning we could be seeing a trend here.

 

[J0eyboi]

You know just because a few heavies in the past have had those qualities doesn't invalidate K.Rool having them all at once and in better forms.

I don't believe I ever said anything in the vein of "other heavies have had these traits in the past therefore it doesn't matter that K.Rool does." However, we've seen all of these traits and more on heavies before, and they ended up being mid-tier at best, because none of those qualities fix the limiting factor for every heavy ever save Snake and Ryu if you count him: awful disadvantage. I don't want to see a heavy with a good pivot grab, I want to see a heavy who can land, get out of combos, and recover, and based on all of his frame data we've seen so far, K.Rool is just like every other heavy, with his fastest aerial at frame 7, a slower-than-average grab, high landing lag relative to the rest of the cast, and a recovery that may not even have a hitbox. Smash 4 DK had good normals, good mobility (barring 6f jumpsquat), and a top-tier advantage state, and he was a mid-tier. Why would K.Rool be any different?

also K.Rool ain't even that fast

 

[Necro'lic]

I don't believe I ever said anything in the vein of "other heavies have had these traits in the past therefore it doesn't matter that K.Rool does." However, we've seen all of these traits and more on heavies before, and they ended up being mid-tier at best, because none of those qualities fix the limiting factor for every heavy ever save Snake and Ryu if you count him: awful disadvantage. I don't want to see a heavy with a good pivot grab, I want to see a heavy who can land, get out of combos, and recover, and based on all of his frame data we've seen so far, K.Rool is just like every other heavy, with his fastest aerial at frame 7, a slower-than-average grab, high landing lag relative to the rest of the cast, and a recovery that may not even have a hitbox. Smash 4 DK had good normals, good mobility (barring 7f jumpsquat), and a top-tier advantage state, and he was a mid-tier. Why would K.Rool be any different?

also K.Rool ain't even that fast

Do they need to have not awful disadvantage to be good? Last I checked, Fox has historically had bad disadvantage due to the combination of light weight and high falling speed, yet he's been consistently mid-tier or higher throughout the series. Am I missing something? That can't be the only reason why heavyweights are lackluster.

 

[J0eyboi]

Do they need to have not awful disadvantage to be good? Last I checked, Fox has historically had bad disadvantage due to the combination of light weight and high falling speed, yet he's been consistently mid-tier or higher throughout the series. Am I missing something? That can't be the only reason why heavyweights are lackluster.

You are, in fact, missing something: Fox's disadvantage has never been that bad. He's combo food, yes, but his recovery and landing options have always been decent at worst, not to mention the fact that he's had a frame 3 Nair in every game. Having a small hurtbox also helps.

And while bad disadvantage isn't the only factor that has historically made heavies bad, it's by far the largest and most universal. Some heavies have trash tier mobility, some have godawful frame data, and some can't kill, but virtually every heavy is hurt by having a bad disadvantage state.

 

[C-G]

You are, in fact, missing something: Fox's disadvantage has never been that bad. He's combo food, yes, but his recovery and landing options have always been decent at worst, not to mention the fact that he's had a frame 3 Nair in every game. Having a small hurtbox also helps.

Yeaaaaah I wouldn't exactly call Fire Fox and Fox Illusion good recovery options. They can move you where you need to be, but they're insanely rigid and abuseable. Being able to mixup your recovery, even a little, is what makes a good recovery.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You know just because a few heavies in the past have had those qualities doesn't invalidate K.Rool having them all at once and in better forms. Have you even seen his demo footage? If you have any observations based on the actual game, I'd sure rather hear those than this idiocy.

A few super heavies right now have all three of those qualities. I believe that was the point he was trying to make. And from the limited footage we've seen, you can't confidently say K Rool is one of them. All super heavyweights have great grab range in Smash 4, with the exception of Ganondorf though some claim he's been brought up to speed in this new game. I weep for anybody entering a heavyweight discussion and being unaware of the best pivot grab in series history and it's still there in ultimate. As for mobilitiy, K Rool's run looks to be about on par with Bowser and Charizard, but his air speed looks to be closer to that of ganondorf or Dedede which will make spacing moves, avoiding followups and trying to recover more difficult. Finally, K Rool's normals look standard across the board for a super heavyweight with easy comparisons to existing characters' "average" moves.

 

[J0eyboi]

Being able to mixup your recovery, even a little, is what makes a good recovery.

Which you can with firefox and illusion. The mere fact that he has two recovery options puts him a step above most heavies and a lot of other characters. There's also game-specific things, like shinestalling in Brawl, that have drastically improved his ability to recover.

Oh, and I wouldn't call Fox's recovery good either, at least not in 4. I would call it "decent", though, which is what I did. There are only like 10 recoveries in 4 that I'd really consider bad.

 

[Necro'lic]

You are, in fact, missing something: Fox's disadvantage has never been that bad. He's combo food, yes, but his recovery and landing options have always been decent at worst, not to mention the fact that he's had a frame 3 Nair in every game. Having a small hurtbox also helps.

And while bad disadvantage isn't the only factor that has historically made heavies bad, it's by far the largest and most universal. Some heavies have trash tier mobility, some have godawful frame data, and some can't kill, but virtually every heavy is hurt by having a bad disadvantage state.

So what you're saying is more recovery options, combo breakers, and landing tools = better heavies? Because in that case, I think this is actually pretty easy to work with.

Now again, I don't think everyone should have as good a way to get out of disadvantage as anyone else. A weakness of bad disadvantage is still fine. But at the same time, we shouldn't have characters completely devoid of ways to get out of it.

For example, take

I'm actually doing a full rundown of what a more balanced moveset for him could be, and the first thing I thought of was, despite me saying his chief weakness is having bad disadvantage, giving him more landing options. Right now his weight is high and fall speed low, making him easy to combo and juggle at the same time. I thought up a way to make DAir and Down-B, his currently lackluster landing tools, to be better in different ways. Firstly, DAir would actually have armor on the underside, making it useless to keep juggling from below. Secondly, it would have the armor come out really quick. Thirdly, more angular control and falling speed on it to move around faster. Finally, a slightly lower landing lag.

Granted, the main downside of this move would still be the landing lag, but the idea is that this is a landing lag that, because of it making Bowser armored towards jugglers below, they would be forced to either try to read out the DAir and fall back down and dodge his incoming fall, or continue to gamble on whether or not he will actually DAir, thus automatically getting himself out of a juggling position, if only for a bit. This would be a combo breaker style landing move.

Bowser Bomb would be more powerful and rigid. I think giving it a shockwave on landing to push away people as well as full intangibility is enough honestly, because the starting lag is high enough. This would be a more brute force method.

Note that neither of these ideas are perfect, but there are at least something to work with. And note that they should have exploitable weaknesses since Bowser is meant to be bad in disadvantage, at least according to my rundown of his moveset. The point is that he's not helpless, just bad relative to the normal characters.