What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?

[Beatrice]

Where the hell do you people define these archetypes?

A little bit of design intent. A little bit of headcanon.

 

[Quillion]

A little bit of design intent. A little bit of headcanon.

If this is the case, why do archetypes need to be so ridiculously specific? Why can't I judge Bowser and Incineroar as being redundant?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

How to make heavy characters viable:

Step 1) Be King K Rool.

Thread's done, shut it down.

I'm pretty sure that as time passes, people will begin to catch on to King K. Rool's flaws, and he too would end up suffering like the other big target heavyweights.

 

[C-G]

I'm pretty sure that as time passes, people will begin to catch on to King K. Rool's flaws, and he too would end up suffering like the other big target heavyweights.

Well, that was mostly a joke, but since you went serious I will do so in kind

Thing is, he avoids a lot of the pitfalls other heavyweights fall into.

-He can compete in a projectile war
-His disadvantage state is STELLAR
-He has armor where he needs it most
-He has consistent kill setups
-He's not slow as mud

The only thing he lacks is a solid poking tool, and even then some of his moves like Utilt and Fair show promise.

 

[Quillion]

Okay, I'm starting to get a little lost. Can someone explain to me the specifics of "disadvantage"? I know there's certainly more to it than just being caught in a combo, but it seems that disadvantage is a big problem for heavies. What are the specifics that create a disadvantage state?

 

[C-G]

Okay, I'm starting to get a little lost. Can someone explain to me the specifics of "disadvantage"? I know there's certainly more to it than just being caught in a combo, but it seems that disadvantage is a big problem for heavies. What are the specifics that create a disadvantage state?

Basically, the disadvantage state in Smash is any time where you are unable to get back to the ground. This means you are either being juggled by an opponent after a combo and you're trying to land, you're on the ledge and trying to get back up, or you're off stage and need to recover or die.

Most heavies have linear, abuseable recoveries that make them easy to edgeguard, and many also have slow aerial movement/slow aerial attacks that make them unable to escape a foe that might be juggling them. That's what makes their disadvantage states so abysmal, that when they get swept off their feet they have a hard time recovering.

DK and Bowser have predictable recoveries and can't challenge opponents very well after being hit. Charizard and D3 have semi-decent recoveries but also get juggled like mad. Ridley's got a good nair and a couple of different options for recovery, but the recovery is slow and reactable, kind of like Fox or Ike.

K Rool on the other hand, has Nair, which is armored and has a great hitbox to get him out of combo situations (as well as a counter), and his Up B has really good recovery while also protecting him from spikes, being able to dip really far below the stage where an opponent may not be able to risk hitting him from the side where he'd be vulnerable. It's one the reasons I have faith in him breaking the Heavy curse

 

[J0eyboi]

If this is the case, why do archetypes need to be so ridiculously specific? Why can't I judge Bowser and Incineroar as being redundant?

Because they aren't. They play significantly differently. The point of archetypes is defining different styles of play that different characters fall under. While people can disagree on the exact definition of these terms, the important thing is that all the characters who are a part of that archetype actually have a similar playstyle, and nothing about what we've seen from Incineroar so far indicates that his playstyle is much like Bowser's.

Side note: Incineroar's counter comes out on frame 3 which is ****ing insane and I love it

 

[Quillion]

Basically, the disadvantage state in Smash is any time where you are unable to get back to the ground. This means you are either being juggled by an opponent after a combo and you're trying to land, you're on the ledge and trying to get back up, or you're off stage and need to recover or die.

Most heavies have linear, abuseable recoveries that make them easy to edgeguard, and many also have slow aerial movement/slow aerial attacks that make them unable to escape a foe that might be juggling them. That's what makes their disadvantage states so abysmal, that when they get swept off their feet they have a hard time recovering.

DK and Bowser have predictable recoveries and can't challenge opponents very well after being hit. Charizard and D3 have semi-decent recoveries but also get juggled like mad. Ridley's got a good nair and a couple of different options for recovery, but the recovery is slow and reactable, kind of like Fox or Ike.

K Rool on the other hand, has Nair, which is armored and has a great hitbox to get him out of combo situations (as well as a counter), and his Up B has really good recovery while also protecting him from spikes, being able to dip really far below the stage where an opponent may not be able to risk hitting him from the side where he'd be vulnerable. It's one the reasons I have faith in him breaking the Heavy curse

Hmm, good analysis. That said, Fox is at least up there for Smash 4 despite his bad recovery. How is he able to stand up?

 

[C-G]

Hmm, good analysis. That said, Fox is at least up there for Smash 4 despite his bad recovery. How is he able to stand up?

Having a bad disadvantage state is not an end-all-be-all. You're more than capable of being a top contender and still being gimp food (looking at you, Cloud). It's just another flaw a character might have, and whether or not it's fatal is dependant on matchup and character. Fox's crap recovery isn't going to be that much of a problem if the opponent is unwilling to chase them out off the edge (Mac, Incineroar, Duck Hunt) or has a no spike to punish (Wario, Peach, Jr Dive Kick Dair characters) as an example. In addition, Fox's natural speed and aggression make him a terror up close that most people can't deal with. He has good kill options, decent throws, above average juggling capabilites, etc. I'm oversimplifying of course, but you get the idea: His pros outweight that particular con.

 

[Quillion]

Having a bad disadvantage state is not an end-all-be-all. You're more than capable of being a top contender and still being gimp food (looking at you, Cloud). It's just another flaw a character might have, and whether or not it's fatal is dependant on matchup and character. Fox's crap recovery isn't going to be that much of a problem if the opponent is unwilling to chase them out off the edge (Mac, Incineroar, Duck Hunt) or has a no spike to punish (Wario, Peach, Jr Dive Kick Dair characters) as an example. In addition, Fox's natural speed and aggression make him a terror up close that most people can't deal with. He has good kill options, decent throws, above average juggling capabilites, etc. I'm oversimplifying of course, but you get the idea: His pros outweight that particular con.

I recall in Smash 4 that Bowser and DK's respective Up-Bs were alright reversal options. So would most heavies' problems be solved if more of them had more and/or better reversals? If so, I wouldn't mind a universal n-air buff so that all characters have a high-BKB, low KBG get-off move.

 

[C-G]

I recall in Smash 4 that Bowser and DK's respective Up-Bs were alright reversal options. So would most heavies' problems be solved if more of them had more and/or better reversals? If so, I wouldn't mind a universal n-air buff so that all characters have a high-BKB, low KBG get-off move.

OOS reversals aren't as important (also DK's was bad because it had lots of startup) to heavies in shield. If you're in a shield you have far more options available than if you're in the air. A jump, a spot dodge, a roll, or an OOS grab/up B. In the air, you basically only have air dodge or use a button.

 

[Quillion]

OOS reversals aren't as important (also DK's was bad because it had lots of startup) to heavies in shield. If you're in a shield you have far more options available than if you're in the air. A jump, a spot dodge, a roll, or an OOS grab/up B. In the air, you basically only have air dodge or use a button.

I was speaking more about reversals for out of hitstun, or reliable "get off" moves. Do heavies need more of those?

 

[C-G]

I was speaking more about reversals for out of hitstun, or reliable "get off" moves. Do heavies need more of those?

Not really. Most heavies have a really good boxing game, so even if Fox is dancing around them, they'll win trades based on the likes of disjointed jabs, tilts that cover an entire direction, armor, etc.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Side note: Incineroar's counter comes out on frame 3 which is ****ing insane and I love it

Are you referring to the counterattack itself, or the counter window? If I recall, counterattack hitboxes typically don't activate until frame 5 or later.

 

[J0eyboi]

Are you referring to the counterattack itself, or the counter window? If I recall, counterattack hitboxes typically don't activate until frame 5 or later.

Counter window.

 

[NotLiquid]

So now that it's confirmed that the full game doesn't allow you to run passed opponents/shields, I think we found the answer to the topic's question.

 

[S_B]

TBH, I get the feeling KRool is either going to be at least slightly overpowered or all the other heavies are just going to suck in comparison.

He's the only one that I feel has the tools that a heavy would need in order to not be destroyed by the Sheiks and ZSSes of the roster.

 

[Necro'lic]

TBH, I get the feeling KRool is either going to be at least slightly overpowered or all the other heavies are just going to suck in comparison.

He's the only one that I feel has the tools that a heavy would need in order to not be destroyed by the Sheiks and ZSSes of the roster.

Then the Smash team would've finally made a decent heavy and people will finally stop saying it's impossible to do in Smash.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Then the Smash team would've finally made a decent heavy and people will finally stop saying it's impossible to do in Smash.

In a case like that, we might have to keep our mouths shut, or else future software updates could mean bad news for the Kremling tyrant.

 

[C-G]

For what it's worth, I thing K Rool will have an extremely tough time dealing with Walling characters like Marth or Wario or ROB. Yes he has armor, but all his armor moves are laggy or have obvious approaches, and I forsee him having a lot of difficulty due to some of his laggier moves and his 3 Hits And Then Stun problems.

 

[J0eyboi]

-He can compete in a projectile war

I seriously doubt that. His cannonball is really slow and laggy and the crown is actually a liability to throw out in neutral. Against characters who would try to start projectile wars, he's going to be outmatched.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I seriously doubt that. His cannonball is really slow and laggy and the crown is actually a liability to throw out in neutral. Against characters who would try to start projectile wars, he's going to be outmatched.

The Villager would likely come to mind, assuming that he can Pocket the crown and/or cannonball. Also, fighters with reflectors, along with Rosalina's Gravitational Pull, could be a problem for King K. Rool's projectile attack options as well.

 

[C-G]

I seriously doubt that. His cannonball is really slow and laggy and the crown is actually a liability to throw out in neutral. Against characters who would try to start projectile wars, he's going to be outmatched.

Note I said he could compete. Not win.

It's more about the suction than the actual projectiles, as he can do it on command and can shoot projectiles back at people. A cannonball to tank the first projectile and suction to absorb the second will be useful. It'll be enough to make people think twice.

As for Krown, throwing it head on, it'll lose. Throwing it backwards however can lead to a long period where the Krown is traveling along a line while K Rool can still act.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I seriously doubt that. His cannonball is really slow and laggy and the crown is actually a liability to throw out in neutral. Against characters who would try to start projectile wars, he's going to be outmatched.

If K. Rool can activate the suction part of his Blunderbuss without firing the cannonball first, and if it can suck in projectiles other than his own cannonball, he could use it to deal with...not projectile spam, since I doubt it could keep up with Mario or Pikachu's rate of fire, but selectively as an option, I guess.

itssomething.jpg

 

[J0eyboi]

As for Krown, throwing it head on, it'll lose. Throwing it backwards however can lead to a long period where the Krown is traveling along a line while K Rool can still act.

That's not why it's a liability. It's a liability because your opponent can just catch it, and then you've given them a free ZSS armor piece.

 

[C-G]

That's not why it's a liability. It's a liability because your opponent can just catch it, and then you've given them a free ZSS armor piece.

If someone can catch the krown and still be able to deal with the giant Kremling who has free reign since you threw the Krown backwards, I would be very shocked.

 

[J0eyboi]

If someone can catch the krown and still be able to deal with the giant Kremling who has free reign since you threw the Krown backwards, I would be very shocked.

Throwing it backwards forgoes catching it, meaning your opponent might get the free armor piece anyway depending on its spawnpoint. It's still a huge liability, because your opponent will have a chance to get it no matter how you use it and your opponent can use it way better than you can.

 

[C-G]

Throwing it backwards forgoes catching it, meaning your opponent might get the free armor piece anyway depending on its spawnpoint. It's still a huge liability, because your opponent will have a chance to get it no matter how you use it and your opponent can use it way better than you can.

Even if they're off stage because you just chucked them off having forced them to block the Krown on it's return? Well no, I guess you'd have already caught it. Or how about if you take the opportunity to pressure the shields? Oh, wait, no, it goes through shields, you're still good. Well, if they jump away then they dodge you but you catch your Krown. Any smart opponent would be blocking/getting hit by K Rool when the Krown returns, or moved far enough out of the way that you would get to it first.

 

[J0eyboi]

Even if they're off stage because you just chucked them off having forced them to block the Krown on it's return? Well no, I guess you'd have already caught it. Or how about if you take the opportunity to pressure the shields? Oh, wait, no, it goes through shields, you're still good. Well, if they jump away then they dodge you but you catch your Krown. Any smart opponent would be blocking/getting hit by K Rool when the Krown returns, or moved far enough out of the way that you would get to it first.

Your opponent could jump back and catch it instead of blocking, or just normally catch it and then dodge whatever K. Rool does, or jump over it and wait for it to respawn or land, or spotdodge it, or roll through it, or hit K. Rool while catching it with any aerial, or anything your heart desires. There's a lot of counterplay here, and it's still way better for your opponent to have than it is for you.

 

[Quillion]

Let me ask a question: has there ever been a fighting game heavy that has a projectile without any catch, and is well-balanced (not overpowered or underpowered)?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That's not why it's a liability. It's a liability because your opponent can just catch it, and then you've given them a free ZSS armor piece.

This is pretty much why King K. Rool could have problems using his long-ranged attacks against Rosalina. Her Gravitational Pull would give her easy access to K. Rool's crown if he tries to throw it. Similarly, the Villager can Pocket the crown for himself, and take away one of K. Rool's attack options for a while.

 

[J0eyboi]

Let me ask a question: has there ever been a fighting game heavy that has a projectile without any catch, and is well-balanced (not overpowered or underpowered)?

The projectile itself, or the heavy using it?

Anyway, off the top of my head, Kum Haehyun (Guilty Gear) has a fireball he has horizontal momentum influence over. There are two versions; the light version can be useful for zoning and counterpoking, while the heavy version leads to good okizeme (wakeup pressure), though given that the game is Guilty Gear and strong oki tools are everywhere, it's pretty standard. Kum is also well-balanced, if on the weaker end right now (though GG has insanely good balance)

Every character including the heavies have projectiles in Pokken, so I'm sure if you looked you could find an example there but I'm not gonna bother

There's Susano'o (BlazBlue: Central Fiction), whose 6A is a fullscreen hitscan projectile. Broken as that may sound, it leads to virtually nothing except a special move unlock (Susan's gimmick is that his specials start every round locked so he can't use them and he has to hit his opponent X times and then use certain moves to unlock them), does low damage, can be jumped over or low-profiled easily, and is very unsafe on whiff or if blocked up close. The move itself is fairly balanced. Susano'o himself may or may not be balanced, but he has seen tournament success, which means he's probably pretty good.

There's probably someone somewhere in NetherRealm games but I'm not even slightly familiar with those

There's also Kragg, Etalus, and Sylvanos in Rivals of Aether, but you may or may not consider their projectiles to have "catches."

There's also Powerd Ciel from Melty Blood, who has lightning lasers.

And if you consider them heavies (no one in DBFZ is a heavy, IMO), Cell and Cooler both have generic beams, and generic beams are pretty good.

 

[lordvaati]

K.Rool is the hero we need for heavies but maybe the one we are not ready for yet.
He's looking real good, but Heavy characters have a tendency to placebo themselves into being solid characters in the early years of a geme's life before the meta settles(see: Bowser in Sm4sh, Hugo in SFxT, Alex in TvC etc.) so I'm still in Wait & See mode.

 

[J0eyboi]

I think K.Rool's been overhyped. He doesn't really seem to have safe buttons outside of landing fair, which he gets very little off of, and landing bair, which has bad range. He doesn't have much in the way of combos, though he does a lot of damage per hit and kills early, which almost makes up for it. His edgeguarding tools don't seem particularly notable, his ledgetrapping tools don't seem particularly notable, his juggling tools don't seem particularly notable, and his mobility is straight-up bad. His initial dash is average, his run speed is bottom 10, and his airspeed is barely better than the Belmonts. Sure, he has a good recovery and better disadvantage than most big bodies, but that's all he has. At least Ridley has decent mobility specs and actual spacing tools.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I think K.Rool's been overhyped. He doesn't really seem to have safe buttons outside of landing fair, which he gets very little off of, and landing bair, which has bad range. He doesn't have much in the way of combos, though he does a lot of damage per hit and kills early, which almost makes up for it. His edgeguarding tools don't seem particularly notable, his ledgetrapping tools don't seem particularly notable, his juggling tools don't seem particularly notable, and his mobility is straight-up bad. His initial dash is average, his run speed is bottom 10, and his airspeed is barely better than the Belmonts. Sure, he has a good recovery and better disadvantage than most big bodies, but that's all he has. At least Ridley has decent mobility specs and actual spacing tools.

This is what I've been saying to friends, too. He honestly looks like his confirms are little to none, and his main bit of anything is just a single hit, if barely somehow a second, and then back to neutral. Bowser has more combo potential than that. People are memeing way too hard about his recovery alone making him good or some such nonsense. Dedede has a solid recovery, but guess who was bottom tier in Smash 4? Dedede.

I feel like I've stated this too many times in too many different places already, but I genuinely think that K.Rool is overrated, thus far, and that's it. I hope to try him and find something more to do with him, but I've seen very little variety in what looks like his combo potential atm, and that's a bit worrisome to me.

 

[HyperL]

Step 1: Make so the parry mechanic also work on grabs. That makes parries much more reliable by removing the potential grab mixup.

Step 2: Make so the stun effect from being parried scales with run speed. The faster they are, the more punishable they become when parried.

Result: Slow characters are parry monsters. Do not throw tilts loosely at a slow character if they know what they're doing, otherwise prepare to be parried to death.

 

[Luigifan18]

Step 1: Make so the parry mechanic also work on grabs. That makes parries much more reliable by removing the potential grab mixup.

Step 2: Make so the stun effect from being parried scales with run speed. The faster they are, the more punishable they become when parried.

Result: Slow characters are parry monsters. Do not throw tilts loosely at a slow character if they know what they're doing, otherwise prepare to be parried to death.

A lot of heavy characters are not remotely slow in terms of run speed; Bowser, Charizard, and Ridley are among the faster characters. The reputation of heavies being slow generally lies more in their frame data.

 

[HyperL]

A lot of heavy characters are not remotely slow in terms of run speed; Bowser, Charizard, and Ridley are among the faster characters. The reputation of heavies being slow generally lies more in their frame data.

Then maybe we should switch run speed for hurtbox since most characters with slow frame data have a hit hurtbox and the ones with fast frame data have a medium to small hurtbox.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It will take King K.Rool.

DK is also still really, really good.

 

[Quillion]

Playing this game, it feels like the way they're balancing heavies this time around is simply by making them kill even earlier than before.

I honestly don't think this is the right way of doing it. There needs to be a better of way of making heavy play more skillful and not just "a few hits and a Smash".