What will it take to make the heavy characters more viable all around?

MeLON17

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I believe that to have a viable heavy character they need good combo starters and less landing lag on aerials. I also think the need either a counter move or a bood recovery like kkr.
 
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Playing this game, it feels like the way they're balancing heavies this time around is simply by making them kill even earlier than before.

I honestly don't think this is the right way of doing it. There needs to be a better of way of making heavy play more skillful and not just "a few hits and a Smash".
And you don't feel the massive gap in attack and/or attack speed closing even a little bit?
 

J0eyboi

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Playing this game, it feels like the way they're balancing heavies this time around is simply by making them kill even earlier than before.
What universe do you live in?

Did you somehow forget that Bowser and DK both had kill confirms in the last game that worked as early as 50%? Nothing in Ultimate even comes close to that. Cargo Bthrow doesn't kill until past 100, nor does Dthrow>Fsmash with K.Rool if your opponent is half-decent at mashing.

Also, they've absolutely done more for heavies than just make them kill earlier, and 5 minutes with any of them should've told you that. Bowser gained super armor on a lot of his ground moves, making his ground game extremely difficult to contest. DDD has better ways to deal with projectiles and better projectiles of his own. Ganon has better burst options and higher mobility. K.Rool has a strong recovery, decent projectiles, and a kill setup. Incineroar has high damage output, high kill power, the best counter in the game, and insanely good buttons. DK... is mostly the same actually, except he kills later, has a better jumpsquat, and can use his great tilts out of a dash. The fact that all you noticed was that "they kill earlier," something which is demonstrably untrue, makes me wonder if you've even played the game.
 

GamerZard

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Heavies feel more viable, alright. Sometimes too viable, though. Beating King K. Rool and Incineroar are definitely challenging tasks for reasons already mentioned (Can confirm, I main them). Don't even get me started on Ganondorf...

What universe do you live in?

Did you somehow forget that Bowser and DK both had kill confirms in the last game that worked as early as 50%? Nothing in Ultimate even comes close to that. Cargo Bthrow doesn't kill until past 100, nor does Dthrow>Fsmash with K.Rool if your opponent is half-decent at mashing.

Also, they've absolutely done more for heavies than just make them kill earlier, and 5 minutes with any of them should've told you that. Bowser gained super armor on a lot of his ground moves, making his ground game extremely difficult to contest. DDD has better ways to deal with projectiles and better projectiles of his own. Ganon has better burst options and higher mobility. K.Rool has a strong recovery, decent projectiles, and a kill setup. Incineroar has high damage output, high kill power, the best counter in the game, and insanely good buttons. DK... is mostly the same actually, except he kills later, has a better jumpsquat, and can use his great tilts out of a dash. The fact that all you noticed was that "they kill earlier," something which is demonstrably untrue, makes me wonder if you've even played the game.
Still, this is really harsh. It's call a misunderstanding.
 
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GamerZard

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What universe do you live in?

Did you somehow forget that Bowser and DK both had kill confirms in the last game that worked as early as 50%? Nothing in Ultimate even comes close to that. Cargo Bthrow doesn't kill until past 100, nor does Dthrow>Fsmash with K.Rool if your opponent is half-decent at mashing.

Also, they've absolutely done more for heavies than just make them kill earlier, and 5 minutes with any of them should've told you that. Bowser gained super armor on a lot of his ground moves, making his ground game extremely difficult to contest. DDD has better ways to deal with projectiles and better projectiles of his own. Ganon has better burst options and higher mobility. K.Rool has a strong recovery, decent projectiles, and a kill setup. Incineroar has high damage output, high kill power, the best counter in the game, and insanely good buttons. DK... is mostly the same actually, except he kills later, has a better jumpsquat, and can use his great tilts out of a dash. The fact that all you noticed was that "they kill earlier," something which is demonstrably untrue, makes me wonder if you've even played the game.
Still, this is really harsh. It's call a misunderstanding.
 

Master Knight DH

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Since some people pointed out about the get up state stuff when talking about heavyweights, I should stuff about Kid Icarus Uprising.

I'm going to start with this moment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEGo1hIizyY&t=1h20m25s

Kid Icarus Uprising's getup ability is not nearly as horrible as Smash's to begin with as well, which punctuates the effectiveness I pull in this general moment. It ends up favoring clubs. Why? Well, first off, none of the options suck at all: Ukemi actually gives competent enough invincibility frames to stagger followup against execution of it; the get-up roll is actually versatile enough; and the get-up attack is a free aimable Forward Shot instead of a freaking half-efforted swipe that doesn't even anti-air. And if you're going to argue that that's KIU's context, then I'd say I'd expect Smash to be the game with the higher amount of invincibility frames for get-up options, including the get-up attack. Get-up options being versatile as they are in KIU means there's an actual minimal maneuverability in getting up without having to give clubs more than low general mobility. Oh, and BTW, the Forward Shot for the get-up attack benefits the bajeezus out of Skyscraper Club, because who wouldn't want instant chargeup for a megaton 128 base damage (for reference, fighters in KIU have 220 HP) big charged shot that can set up and its only weakness beyond low velocity is the high chargeup. Oh, and I'll get to your answer to that.

The more important reason is that get-up options can still be read and punished accordingly. I actually punished the get-up at the end of that string with a Back Shot, when in general, you might have expected the opponent to just move away from me where Skyscraper's generally poor shot velocity is problematic, but why I did the Back Shot anyway was because I expected Kevas-Z to do as he did and guess that I'd try to snipe an escape roll with Neutral Shot because 30m/s, while still not that good, is by no means worth underestimating, least of all if you want to twitch your escape plan, given that the highest base running speed is 17m/s (Brawler Claws) and the get-up roll, not even clearing 10m in total, is sure to still have even less momentum. For reference, Skyscraper Club, despite its (nonsensically) *ABYSMAL* max range damage multiplier of 25% on its shots, still 3HKOs at base with ANY attack other than Back Shot at 30m, and anybody who gets hit at that distance or even further has problems anyway. (Don't say Invisible Shots, you can hold that by listening to sound and it's not even cost-effective even if it didn't have to worry about stalling Powers such as Playing Dead.) Oh but wait, Skyscraper Club gets a projectile, that breaks the point of heavies not having projectiles. Actually, EVERY weapon type in KIU has projectile ability. In fact, clubs LOSE rapid fire attacks, having for replacements some (unfortunately lame) swing attacks. If anything, they're better off than Smash Bros. heavies' already considering a large portion of the characters already has some form of projectile play that's especially overbearing against them.

Ya know. That's a key factor to what makes heavies suffer throughout the Smash series: exaggerated RPS of artillery beating heavy infantryman, while the heavy infantryman gets NOTHING in the Smash series' mechanics to keep cavalry from suddenly countering THEM too. It definitely explains a LOT with Meta Knight in Brawl any way you slice it, because even if he's not broken by inflated stats, he's still given a favorable environment for free.

And of course, evidence of a picture being worth a thousand words--well, wordcount says it's almost 600--and I haven't even mentioned, what else, the Power System. I'll provide a quick URL here for what lets it work so well:
https://warriorsuprising.wordpress.com/2018/12/07/the-power-system-why-it-works-when-it-does/
It's a bit outdated or else I'd have talked about Interference, which I replaced Mega Laser with as of late to have something to use against panic button Power spam--I feel Interference lameducks the whole concept of outmaneuvering the Powers themselves anyway, which is off when Reflect Barrier, which is supposed to be THE skill gate Power to Skyscraper Club (take a wild guess why) still has its own Counter Play even without Grid Reading's involvement. (For reference, Reflect Barrier L4 for 4 charges is a 2x6 rectangle and thus contradicts Slip Shot entirely.) But to save you the trouble of wading through over 8000 words, I'll summarize the key points as to why the Power system benefits something like Skyscraper Club without being over-the-top:
  • Armor Powers that provide temporary KB immunity while still involving a sense of martial arts especially against the cavalry setups
  • Tag Powers that can put the kibosh on kiting ability, especially when supported by more analytical gameplay fitting for fighting against artillery-type foes
  • The concept of Grid Reading, the result of Powers using Tetris-style shapes, rewarding mid-battle analysis with punishment against excessively mish-mash setups and attempts to be degenerate (as an easy example, Bumblebee immediately contradicts leveled Slip Shot), while its checks and counters reward creativity
  • Powers having their own Counter Play in general that prevent them from being degenerate (IE, Bumblebee's forced clockwise movement on auto-dodge, Reflect Barrier's stationary defense that can't be reset during duration, etc.), keeping them from being dominant without reducing their ability to cause terror

Now obviously, I am talking about Kid Icarus Uprising, but since Sakurai made that game and there are some mechanics comparable to Smash Bros., it IS fair I bring it up. Even if there would have to be changes to the Power system or anything based off of it (for example, a direct export of it would have to nerf the Armor Powers, goes without saying), KIU is STILL a worthy case study in how it balances the Mighty Glacier. Well, at least outside how the good points are buried by weapon modifiers being sickeningly OP long before the likes of Evasion+, Shot Range+, and Walking Speed+ show their own deserving to be roasted over the coals.
 
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Since some people pointed out about the get up state stuff when talking about heavyweights, I should stuff about Kid Icarus Uprising.

I'm going to start with this moment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEGo1hIizyY&t=1h20m25s

Kid Icarus Uprising's getup ability is not nearly as horrible as Smash's to begin with as well, which punctuates the effectiveness I pull in this general moment. It ends up favoring clubs. Why? Well, first off, none of the options suck at all: Ukemi actually gives competent enough invincibility frames to stagger followup against execution of it; the get-up roll is actually versatile enough; and the get-up attack is a free aimable Forward Shot instead of a freaking half-efforted swipe that doesn't even anti-air. And if you're going to argue that that's KIU's context, then I'd say I'd expect Smash to be the game with the higher amount of invincibility frames for get-up options, including the get-up attack. Get-up options being versatile as they are in KIU means there's an actual minimal maneuverability in getting up without having to give clubs more than low general mobility. Oh, and BTW, the Forward Shot for the get-up attack benefits the bajeezus out of Skyscraper Club, because who wouldn't want instant chargeup for a megaton 128 base damage (for reference, fighters in KIU have 220 HP) big charged shot that can set up and its only weakness beyond low velocity is the high chargeup. Oh, and I'll get to your answer to that.

The more important reason is that get-up options can still be read and punished accordingly. I actually punished the get-up at the end of that string with a Back Shot, when in general, you might have expected the opponent to just move away from me where Skyscraper's generally poor shot velocity is problematic, but why I did the Back Shot anyway was because I expected Kevas-Z to do as he did and guess that I'd try to snipe an escape roll with Neutral Shot because 30m/s, while still not that good, is by no means worth underestimating, least of all if you want to twitch your escape plan, given that the highest base running speed is 17m/s (Brawler Claws) and the get-up roll, not even clearing 10m in total, is sure to still have even less momentum. For reference, Skyscraper Club, despite its (nonsensically) *ABYSMAL* max range damage multiplier of 25% on its shots, still 3HKOs at base with ANY attack other than Back Shot at 30m, and anybody who gets hit at that distance or even further has problems anyway. (Don't say Invisible Shots, you can hold that by listening to sound and it's not even cost-effective even if it didn't have to worry about stalling Powers such as Playing Dead.) Oh but wait, Skyscraper Club gets a projectile, that breaks the point of heavies not having projectiles. Actually, EVERY weapon type in KIU has projectile ability. In fact, clubs LOSE rapid fire attacks, having for replacements some (unfortunately lame) swing attacks. If anything, they're better off than Smash Bros. heavies' already considering a large portion of the characters already has some form of projectile play that's especially overbearing against them.

Ya know. That's a key factor to what makes heavies suffer throughout the Smash series: exaggerated RPS of artillery beating heavy infantryman, while the heavy infantryman gets NOTHING in the Smash series' mechanics to keep cavalry from suddenly countering THEM too. It definitely explains a LOT with Meta Knight in Brawl any way you slice it, because even if he's not broken by inflated stats, he's still given a favorable environment for free.
While I like your very nicely done analysis between KI:U and Smash bros and how they balance their heavyweight options, as someone who never played KI:U and only sparingly watched his little brother play it, do you think you can more clearly translate what this "get up state" you are referring to and how the options of said "get up state" fair in both games as a sort of direct comparison rather than talking at length about KI:U's version with only a few connections to Smash? That would be great. :D

I want to know in a more comparative sense how KI:U balances the "mighty glacier" where Smash fails to.
 
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The long story short is that Kid Icarus has I-frames out the yin-yang, and Smash does not.

Getup options in Kid Icarus are, effectively, unpunishable. I-frames are granted and are not cancelled by other animations. So you can do literally anything while invincible from getup, and also dodges.

Attacking getups don’t grant nearly as much I-frames as other dodges but it gives you what would probably translate to Smash as a spaced Bair for free. In Kid Icarus you’re downright at an advantage in getups.

For a normal fighting game this would probably be too volatile, but in Smash I could see it working. Though other fighters can achieve such a thing in different ways, like in Pokken for example. In Pokken you cannot be punished for getups themselves, you can guard the frame the I-frames run out. You could be grabbed, but then attacks that crush grabs frame 1 exist. Frame 1 invincible backdashes also exist. So no matter what, even though getups put you at a disadvantage, an option must be committed to to beat it out. Versus Smash’s where just spacing a Nair stops them cold.
 

Master Knight DH

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While I like your very nicely done analysis between KI:U and Smash bros and how they balance their heavyweight options, as someone who never played KI:U and only sparingly watched his little brother play it, do you think you can more clearly translate what this "get up state" you are referring to and how the options of said "get up state" fair in both games as a sort of direct comparison rather than talking at length about KI:U's version with only a few connections to Smash? That would be great. :D

I want to know in a more comparative sense how KI:U balances the "mighty glacier" where Smash fails to.
Thank you. I'll definitely be sure to add more about the get-up option.

I should mention that KIU doesn't have a manual stand get-up, because controls get in the way of that, nor does it have Ukemi Rolls. Still, this is just a case of quality over quantity. I'd have to check the frame data on get-ups in Smash Bros., but here's what you get with KIU's (going by 60FPS, even though I know the game knows at 30FPS):

  • Ukemi - IASA: 40; intangibility total: 82
  • Roll - IASA: 44; intangibility total: 60
  • Attack (club; not sure about other weapon families) - Attack: 30; IASA: 60; intangibility total: 60 (status invincibility 40); activation of all Powers, including buff Powers, stays locked until IASA
  • Automatic stand-up (seems to happen around frame 82) - IASA: 34; intangibility total: 2 to 96

Now obviously, all of the options have surplus intangibility, though the get-up attack's is the lowest. It's actually an iffy concept in general, though I think the Ukemi actually deserves to have surplus intangibility, instead of having its execution get shafted by some easybake chain. Of course, a quick glance at recording of get-up options' frame data in Smash Bros. suggest that Smash Bros.' are faster. Why do KIU's work better at encouraging power-based characters anyway?

Let's take a look at each of them to see why they work better than in Smash Bros., besides the automatic stand-up:

  • Ukemi - the surplus intangibility means the defender is not at the mercy of a Fragile Speedster chaining into something so nonsensical, and can instead do their own followup, forcing the attacker to play smarter, while making sure that burst damage from the start is more desirable.
  • Roll - the roll movement actually has multiple dimensions to work with in KIU's context instead of only one in Smash Bros.'--of course, the best you could still hope for with the roll getup is a position reset, and as I alluded to, that can still be read to effectiveness, but the guessing game definitely demands more work, allowing the defender an escape route, and the roll covers about 8 meters--for context, First Blade's running speed is 10m/s. The burst of mobility sets a floor for get-up dodging ability that ensures the defender can pull their escape if they guess correctly.
  • Attack - an aimable Forward Shot can actually hit the opponent making a dodge effort for solid damage, which is more than what can be said about Smash Bros.' awkward sweep. Actually, why doesn't Smash Bros. have more ways to get-up attack anyway? Although even if it did, I expect they'd all be melee attacking anyway, which has the problem that no, you can't hit an opponent who doesn't stay next to you, such is the problem of a stationary melee attack.

Ya know. Writing that last part, I realized that perhaps the standing get-up in Smash Bros. is supposed to be how to counter projectiles via an early IASA frame to set up countermeasures. I look into that and turns out it's supposed to be the option for making sure an opponent doesn't gain more space where you can help it--of course, with the inevitable early IASA frame, it can be chained into another dodge move to aggravate the whole mess. I think the whole summary on why get-up options are handled in a manner that helps Mighty Glaciers in KIU, is because pure reaction by Fragile Speedsters can't catch too many of the options, but reads and snares can be used to capitalize upon the higher committal and there's actually tools to call out active escapes.

The long story short is that Kid Icarus has I-frames out the yin-yang, and Smash does not.

Getup options in Kid Icarus are, effectively, unpunishable. I-frames are granted and are not cancelled by other animations. So you can do literally anything while invincible from getup, and also dodges.

Attacking getups don’t grant nearly as much I-frames as other dodges but it gives you what would probably translate to Smash as a spaced Bair for free. In Kid Icarus you’re downright at an advantage in getups.

For a normal fighting game this would probably be too volatile, but in Smash I could see it working. Though other fighters can achieve such a thing in different ways, like in Pokken for example. In Pokken you cannot be punished for getups themselves, you can guard the frame the I-frames run out. You could be grabbed, but then attacks that crush grabs frame 1 exist. Frame 1 invincible backdashes also exist. So no matter what, even though getups put you at a disadvantage, an option must be committed to to beat it out. Versus Smash’s where just spacing a Nair stops them cold.
I was about to start on the other concept that helps Mighty Glaciers that doesn't relate to Powers, but you post this, so....

Invincibility frames aren't the big reason KIU's getups are better. They can only do so much because, sure, basic dodge moves do have their own invincibility frames, but they just floor the intangibility duration, and if the defender has their followup read, they're still in trouble. Oh, and by the way, if you're going to point to Evasion+, let me stop you right there, because it's what's broken between it and Bumblebee, which not only red zones any area where the opponent can't be dodged clockwise around them but can be baited into those red zones. Ah, what do I know, not like I can use this Power called Counter to make an Evasion+ Phosphora Bow player kill their own Angel simply by shooting me with their repeated pokes, wouldn't that be a dose of karma.

I guarantee that attack getups would get at the very least staggered by Spin Shot Forward Shots/Rapid. (Basically, face to side, move forward according to camera, launch attack, spin camera to aim where desired before attack comes out. Hard to do with most Forward Shots due to lower windup, actually.) The attack getup still eats up the defender's chargeup too, so especially if they're using something like Laser Staff, they lose the burst damage on a miss. Meanwhile, the attack getup doesn't have the defender move--and sure there's surplus intangibility, but it's not much, so the defender is still going to be feeling the mobility loss.

Oh, and by the way, that spaced Back Air you speak of? It has to put up with Smash Bros.' shield suffocating it. It's one of many reasons I have moments of imitating Manfred Von Karma over Smash Bros.' balance.

Like I say, getups are better in KIU just because of the heightened versatility.

-

Meanwhile, as I'm at about 6500 characters, and thus am not too close to the likely 20K character limit--I checked to see if character limit would be a thing on a forum with a similar format--I can talk about the other concept that helps Mighty Glaciers.

Walking.

Now I'm not sure which game between Smash and KIU handles walking better. I would say KIU, though mainly because there's actual cooldown on running stops to prevent easy reaction dodging. Both games do give incentive to walk though.

KIU has its stamina system, which means if you run too much, you'll find yourself unable to move for a few seconds--and believe me, I have had no shortage of amount of times this has happened to me using Clubs, which already have the highest stamina duration of any weapon family. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Staves are tied with Claws for the lowest. Stamina regens if you're just walking (or standing), so that can be done to get it back. In addition, Neutral Shot/Rapid doesn't have committal movement like the Dash counterparts do and their sense of evasion is pretty much just burst evasion without even the advantage of invincibility frames. Clubs have Neutral Shots generally having innate Slip Shot (Magnus and Atlas are exceptions), and Dash Shots involve a lot of windup as well, if you're wondering because Clubs' momentum from Dash Shot usage is garbage anyway.

As for Smash Bros., something I noticed recently is that dash attacks that have low cooldown tend to have miserable reach away from the character, so they are surprisingly susceptible to counterattack by dodging or reading the followup. Compared to Forward Tilts which can be done more easily when walking and they can be used to layer pressure against somebody trying to stay at mid range, and walking makes Forward Tilts easier to do. This is to say nothing of subtle movements that can throw off an opponent, in addition to easier reaction to an offense.

Why would walking being more useful be a good thing in general? Because it would mean both more methodical and consequently more varied gameplay, and working reason to risk being easier to catch by a Mighty Glacier pulling their own burst of mobility. Obviously, KIU thinks more long term with it, although that can be a good thing if it makes a wall of attacks not as nightmarish to chip down. Still, as bad as losing agency for getting hit whatsoever can get to Mighty Glaciers to the point where I know I'd rather have the option to stop taking knockback for a while, even when it would trade out a whopping 67% damage cut worth of Mercy Defense against followups; I know they also have an absolutely miserable time against people who can easily stay in their disadvantage range. YMMV on which is worse for the Mighty Glacier/Melee Tornado hybrid: the first one has them ending up with blatant favoritism of melee rush character choices who should have to think, and can create VERY brain-dead gameplay; while the second can be devoid of Counter Play that can cause matchup bias. Of course, Counter Play is precisely the reason walking shouldn't suck in the least.

Though I think it's hard to say if KIU's walking is genuinely better. Without relying on weapon modifiers, I mean, because we do know how they break so many things in the game. I think KIU needs a better organized competitive scene, one that cares to involve pure V100 weapons, before any real judgement calls can be made on which game handles walking better.

I can be sure, however, that with less unfavorable battle mechanics, tools for pulling offense with escape reads, available Power choices for overcoming matchup problems, the Power system in general, and even the 1HKOs without weapon modifier mismatch--yes, there are some, including through Super Armor's defense boost as well--having Counter Play by demanding attack boost Powers such as Energy Charge; KIU's Mighty Glaciers have clearer capability.
 

Quillion

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I'm not seeing why making getups safer in Smash would help the glaciers in Smash.

Getups in Smash are universally punishable; it doesn't really matter whether you're a speedster or a glacier. I thought we're determining that a lot of the problem is putting heavies in disadvantage, which someone described as them being unable to get back on the ground due to being juggled or edgeguarded.

It really isn't an easy problem to fix. Practically half the problem is heavies having such massive hitboxes.
 

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I'm not seeing why making getups safer in Smash would help the glaciers in Smash.

Getups in Smash are universally punishable; it doesn't really matter whether you're a speedster or a glacier. I thought we're determining that a lot of the problem is putting heavies in disadvantage, which someone described as them being unable to get back on the ground due to being juggled or edgeguarded.

It really isn't an easy problem to fix. Practically half the problem is heavies having such massive hitboxes.
Agreed. It wouldn't really change anything. Speedsters would still home in on glaciers no matter what.

Honestly, as it stands, heavies are only good against themselves and other characters with poor frame data. They're all gimmicky in a bad way, with K. Rool being the most blatant example.
 

Quillion

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Agreed. It wouldn't really change anything. Speedsters would still home in on glaciers no matter what.

Honestly, as it stands, heavies are only good against themselves and other characters with poor frame data. They're all gimmicky in a bad way, with K. Rool being the most blatant example.
I'm honestly starting to think that the only way to balance heavies would be to take notes from most fighters and not have such large variance in frame data. Ultimate is already making steps toward that, but the downside is that it takes the fun out of playing heavies.
 

Luigifan18

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I'm honestly starting to think that the only way to balance heavies would be to take notes from most fighters and not have such large variance in frame data. Ultimate is already making steps toward that, but the downside is that it takes the fun out of playing heavies.
As long as it doesn't go to Brawlhalla extremes of removing most moveset variance altogether, I think we'll be fine.
 
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I'm honestly starting to think that the only way to balance heavies would be to take notes from most fighters and not have such large variance in frame data. Ultimate is already making steps toward that, but the downside is that it takes the fun out of playing heavies.
Large variance in anything across characters causes a lot of problems. I am an advocate for much less variance in frame data too, but here's the thing. It doesn't have to be just frame data that does it. I already talked about my priority system being not based on move damage but its own thing in Smash, and it can allow for heavier characters (or slower attacks in general) to beat out faster ones should they collide, which can put neutral in favor of the low frame data character since they can answer any fast character's advance unabated.

And I don't think it takes fun out of heavies at all. Just have more tools they can use that actually work. For example, Ganon's UTilt is still hilariously situational, so people can't use it as its own move very often. Same with Warlock Punch.
 

Quillion

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Large variance in anything across characters causes a lot of problems. I am an advocate for much less variance in frame data too, but here's the thing. It doesn't have to be just frame data that does it. I already talked about my priority system being not based on move damage but its own thing in Smash, and it can allow for heavier characters (or slower attacks in general) to beat out faster ones should they collide, which can put neutral in favor of the low frame data character since they can answer any fast character's advance unabated.

And I don't think it takes fun out of heavies at all. Just have more tools they can use that actually work. For example, Ganon's UTilt is still hilariously situational, so people can't use it as its own move very often. Same with Warlock Punch.
Isn't priority already its own thing? I agree they could certainly balance it better, though.
 
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Isn't priority already its own thing? I agree they could certainly balance it better, though.
Priority is based on the difference between two moves' damage values. I believe they need at least a 13% difference to not clash but have one beat the other. Air to ground and air to air also don't seem to obey this rule.

There are caveats to priority, like some moves will never clash but will be cancelled, making the full move animation go through without doing anything.
 

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Priority is based on the difference between two moves' damage values. I believe they need at least a 13% difference to not clash but have one beat the other. Air to ground and air to air also don't seem to obey this rule.

There are caveats to priority, like some moves will never clash but will be cancelled, making the full move animation go through without doing anything.
The difference in damage that allows one move to beat another is 9%, actually — which is still high enough that one move outright beating another is relatively rare.
 

Quillion

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Priority is based on the difference between two moves' damage values. I believe they need at least a 13% difference to not clash but have one beat the other. Air to ground and air to air also don't seem to obey this rule.

There are caveats to priority, like some moves will never clash but will be cancelled, making the full move animation go through without doing anything.
Ah, now I understand things better. If heavies would get a priority advantage, it could lead to a better RPS game where heavies can power through most attacks but not beat shields, but ALSO have a good grab game to mix things up.

Combine that with more super armor advantages and they'll be set, I believe.
 

Master Knight DH

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I'm not seeing why making getups safer in Smash would help the glaciers in Smash.

Getups in Smash are universally punishable; it doesn't really matter whether you're a speedster or a glacier. I thought we're determining that a lot of the problem is putting heavies in disadvantage, which someone described as them being unable to get back on the ground due to being juggled or edgeguarded.

It really isn't an easy problem to fix. Practically half the problem is heavies having such massive hitboxes.
Getups aren't objectively safer in KIU; they're just safer against reaction in general because the options are so distinct in usefulness. Reads can still gut them, which is what's more important. And as I point out, KIU's getups are actually more committal, so you can actually chase--I definitely do it with freaking Skyscraper Club, even if it helps that everybody actively wants to get the blazes away from me and my 2-3HKO Shots.

Though if you missed the later point of my second post, I pointed out about walking because the problem isn't that Smash makes the Mighty Glacier's disadvantage stage awful, oh no. It's that their advantage state STILL has problems, so much so that there's a reason I would see appeal in KIU's Power System even back on the demoing in GDC 2012, just because of the Super Armor Power applying a (20 second) buff that nullifies knockback and consequently keeps those freaking Fragile Speedsters from robbing me of my agency just because they lovetap me. I can't begin to tell you how that's absolutely useful, considering it means something like Skyscraper Club can threaten to charge in with direct attacks and the opponent is definitely going to be putting up with a lot of attrition whenever that works. Counter (the Power) is even better for this because while it doesn't provide a damage cut like Super Armor does and the automatic re-aiming can work against the user, getting hit with it active instantly provides full chargeup, which can mean plenty of free Neutral Shots against somebody who gets poke-happy. Wouldn't you know it, Counter actually rewards good gameplay on both sides. Of course, the Armor Powers can only do so much to let the Mighty Glacier play out.

You mention in your newer posts about priority. I should point out that the damage difference requirement for not clashing is subject to law of diminishing as the damage values would be higher and so would their differences, although I would not be opposed to clashing providing the damage output winner with frame advantage. That said, though, priority doesn't mean a thing if the opponent can just keep sniping you like mad while you can't bite back because of the distance. Going back to KIU yet again, Super Armor and Counter at max levels still only use up 18 spaces, as opposed to the full 36, and my standard loadout doesn't even have Super Armor (which has the bigger level difference in space counts) at max level, even though I would want efficiency going if you're wondering why I don't use Aries Armor, not that I could use it with Super Speed anyway. What gives? Needing to expend the other half of my Power Grid space on making sure I can actually catch the opponent. Otherwise, I can't expect those trap shots I like throwing out to cut it. And isn't that interesting that I bring up the concept of trap shots with something I define as a Melee Tornado, but what do you expect when Skyscraper Club's effective range is atrocious, let alone for something that needs to take its time to charge up its shots in the first place.

My point is, if KB immunity alone provided any guarantees for more active Mighty Glacier viability, Ganondorf's Warlock Punch wouldn't need to rely on moments like this to see the light of day. It helps (case in point: I was trying to read Farore's Wind, which would have been sponged and left the Zelda to my left), but what would help more is actual ability to catch actively evasive opponents, even if the Mighty Glacier would have to think in order to handle it.
 
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Quillion

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Though if you missed the later point of my second post, I pointed out about walking because the problem isn't that Smash makes the Mighty Glacier's disadvantage stage awful, oh no. It's that their advantage state STILL has problems
J0eyboi J0eyboi brought up that with heavies doing as much damage and killing as early as they do, they really don't need to stay in advantage for long to get a kill. I disagreed with him at first, but I do see his point now.

Heavies could certainly get more reversal and get-off-me options, but I don't think a whole bunch of invincibility frames is the way to do it.
 
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J0eyboi J0eyboi brought up that with heavies doing as much damage and killing as early as they do, they really don't need to stay in advantage for long to get a kill. I disagreed with him at first, but I do see his point now.

Heavies could certainly get more reversal and get-off-me options, but I don't think a whole bunch of invincibility frames is the way to do it.
I still think the best way to "fix" heavies is to not treat them like they are stereotypical heavies. You can make big body characters have good disadvantage just as you can make small bodies have bad disadvantage. You don't have to make their frame data bad, you don't have to make their recoveries bad, you don't have to have armor out the wazoo like K. Rool or PM Bowser. Just make good characters.

I still do think Smash Ultimate is the best heavies have been, and I theorize it's because the balance team didn't abide by these rules as much as the last game. For example, DK and Dedede's landing lag is pretty average compared to smaller characters of the cast. Their general frame data is still slow, but that's due more to range than anything else. They seem to outprioritize most attacks too. They also have speed where it matters, especially in their more neutral oriented moves like Jab, DTilt, UTilt, BAir, FAir, and NAir for Dedede for an example.

In short, they seem to be designing them like they are just any other character.
 

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Okay, then who's the best and worst of the heavies so far in terms of general playstyle?

There's a lot going on with them, with King K. Rool's armor gimmick and projectile game, King Dedede's Gordo's, and of course Donkey Kong and possibly Bowser. Ganondorf is clearly buffed, as with King Dedede. But then there's the heavy Pokemon. Incineroar is good only outside of the mobility and recovery department, while Charizard sees the least use of Pokemon Trainer's team in 1v1s due to the former department.
 
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Luigifan18

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I still think the best way to "fix" heavies is to not treat them like they are stereotypical heavies. You can make big body characters have good disadvantage just as you can make small bodies have bad disadvantage. You don't have to make their frame data bad, you don't have to make their recoveries bad, you don't have to have armor out the wazoo like K. Rool or PM Bowser. Just make good characters.

I still do think Smash Ultimate is the best heavies have been, and I theorize it's because the balance team didn't abide by these rules as much as the last game. For example, DK and Dedede's landing lag is pretty average compared to smaller characters of the cast. Their general frame data is still slow, but that's due more to range than anything else. They seem to outprioritize most attacks too. They also have speed where it matters, especially in their more neutral oriented moves like Jab, DTilt, UTilt, BAir, FAir, and NAir for Dedede for an example.

In short, they seem to be designing them like they are just any other character.
How easy a move is to work with (i.e. how easily it connects and how safe it is if blocked, dodged, or whiffed) tends to come down to four things — frame data (how fast it starts up and cools down), priority (how well it beats out other attacks), range (how large the hitboxes are and how far they extend from the user), and armor (how well the attack can resist potential interruptions). A move that has all four factors to a strong degree is broken unless it's so weak that the reward for landing it is minimal; balance requires a trade-off between these four factors (as well as things like hitbox duration and whether or not it can be blocked) and the reward for landing the move (damage, knockback, and miscellaneous things like stunning, healing, or damage over time). I believe your Bowser revamp thread covers this very subject, namely that a character simply cannot be viable without having at least a few moves that are fast and/or safe to start combos and escape pressure in any basic situation (i.e. both ground and air). Without any ability to apply or escape pressure, a character is worthless, but a character can have an overall highly risky and tough-to-use moveset as long as it includes a few options that are viable for establishing advantage and/or escaping disadvantage in most circumstances.
 

J0eyboi

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I thought this thread died a month ago. Hi everybody.

I know nothing about KIU, but I have to ask: How are you punishing an option with 40 frames carryover invuln? I get that KIU is probably slower than Smash, but ledgedashing in Melee, an option that gets less than half that surplus, is centralizing to the point of making stalling on the ledge a viable strategy for timing out respawn invuln. In this game, I can make it 3/4s of the way across Smashville in that time as Greninja, who's not even the fastest character in the game. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't get it at all.

Large variance in anything across characters causes a lot of problems. I am an advocate for much less variance in frame data too, but here's the thing. It doesn't have to be just frame data that does it. I already talked about my priority system being not based on move damage but its own thing in Smash, and it can allow for heavier characters (or slower attacks in general) to beat out faster ones should they collide, which can put neutral in favor of the low frame data character since they can answer any fast character's advance unabated.
I do think the priority system could use an overhaul, because the way it works right now is really bad. Being damage-based is bad enough on its own, but the fact that it doesn't even apply to most situations pushes it over the top. That said, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

And I don't think it takes fun out of heavies at all. Just have more tools they can use that actually work. For example, Ganon's UTilt is still hilariously situational, so people can't use it as its own move very often. Same with Warlock Punch.
Ganon is a special kind of poorly designed. Making him good would require a lot more than just giving him a usable Utilt, though that is a start.

How easy a move is to work with (i.e. how easily it connects and how safe it is if blocked, dodged, or whiffed) tends to come down to four things — frame data (how fast it starts up and cools down), priority (how well it beats out other attacks), range (how large the hitboxes are and how far they extend from the user), and armor (how well the attack can resist potential interruptions).
Priority and armor are pretty much the same thing.
 
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How easy a move is to work with (i.e. how easily it connects and how safe it is if blocked, dodged, or whiffed) tends to come down to four things — frame data (how fast it starts up and cools down), priority (how well it beats out other attacks), range (how large the hitboxes are and how far they extend from the user), and armor (how well the attack can resist potential interruptions). A move that has all four factors to a strong degree is broken unless it's so weak that the reward for landing it is minimal; balance requires a trade-off between these four factors (as well as things like hitbox duration and whether or not it can be blocked) and the reward for landing the move (damage, knockback, and miscellaneous things like stunning, healing, or damage over time). I believe your Bowser revamp thread covers this very subject, namely that a character simply cannot be viable without having at least a few moves that are fast and/or safe to start combos and escape pressure in any basic situation (i.e. both ground and air). Without any ability to apply or escape pressure, a character is worthless, but a character can have an overall highly risky and tough-to-use moveset as long as it includes a few options that are viable for establishing advantage and/or escaping disadvantage in most circumstances.
I'm glad you brought up my Bowser rework thread, because I think it's the modus operandi of how to make heavies in general at least viable against every matchup rather than being very specialist, "good against x, terrible against y" characters. Every single game I've ever played that had viable heavyweight characters surrounded by speedsters involved said heavyweights being fast in certain ways that work with the system of the game they're in. For Bowser specifically, I would make certain moves very fast or safe on shield while still being potentially bad in the frame data department. But never ALL of the moves.

It's called having your bases covered, and is something every game should strive to do when they have class/character systems like fighting games. I know people want to immediately go to the idea that the idea of everyone having the bases covered means I want everyone to be Mario, but it's honestly more nuanced than that. Bowser in Ultimate has fast moves that work on shield just fine. He has combo starters. As a result of getting these things that past games deemed off limits for heavies, he still plays like a heavy, but also a viable character.

J0eyboi J0eyboi

Ganon is a special kind of poorly designed. Making him good would require a lot more than just giving him a usable Utilt, though that is a start.
I agree. That's why I actually think Ganon's rework in Ultimate is nowhere near far enough. He needs to be reworked from the top down. Except Flame Choke, because I actually like the idea of that (I personally would change it to be a mid range command grab though without the dash forward).
 
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GamerZard

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I agree. That's why I actually think Ganon's rework in Ultimate is nowhere near far enough. He needs to be reworked from the top down. Except Flame Choke, because I actually like the idea of that (I personally would change it to be a mid range command grab though without the dash forward).
You mean Ultimate's changes weren't enough? What is it about Ganondorf that's crippling him besides his poor mobility?
 

Quillion

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You mean Ultimate's changes weren't enough? What is it about Ganondorf that's crippling him besides his poor mobility?
Range and lack of armor, I believe. Sword Smashes trade frame data for better tech chase options, and WP can power through weak hits. But that's still not much.

Competitively, it was a missed opportunity to give him at least one sword aerial, even though he would be less fun in a "disrespect" sense.
 
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You mean Ultimate's changes weren't enough? What is it about Ganondorf that's crippling him besides his poor mobility?
Mostly the fact Ganon still has some remnants of Falcon clone that he probably shouldn't, namely his specials (besides Flame Choke). But if you want presently in Ultimate, while Ganon is definitely good, I don't think he's good enough per se. This is theoretical as hell, but I posit that his main weaknesses of being easy to gimp and slow are not paid in kind by his strengths.

When you have a game that relies on mobility as much as Smash does, if your character's weakness is lack of mobility, they either need high mobility that is situational, or a ton of other upsides against every other standard character. So for Ganon, his lack of true disjoint hurts him and his lack of projectile also hurt him. But if you don't want him to be a zoner, you sure can do that. It's possible.

The solution for Ganondorf is that he needs to be the BEST in the game bar none, at CQC. This means a skewed range/frame data balance where both are in his favor, an actual combo game should he get in, and moves that can't be outprioritized easily or at all.

The name of the game is "Ganondorf sucks until he is in close range, then he's the best character ever". And this is again balanced by his mobility being terrible. That is not what we have in Ultimate despite his mobility being barely buffed compared to the standard of the game, so theoretically, he shouldn't be good enough.
 

Luigifan18

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Mostly the fact Ganon still has some remnants of Falcon clone that he probably shouldn't, namely his specials (besides Flame Choke). But if you want presently in Ultimate, while Ganon is definitely good, I don't think he's good enough per se. This is theoretical as hell, but I posit that his main weaknesses of being easy to gimp and slow are not paid in kind by his strengths.

When you have a game that relies on mobility as much as Smash does, if your character's weakness is lack of mobility, they either need high mobility that is situational, or a ton of other upsides against every other standard character. So for Ganon, his lack of true disjoint hurts him and his lack of projectile also hurt him. But if you don't want him to be a zoner, you sure can do that. It's possible.

The solution for Ganondorf is that he needs to be the BEST in the game bar none, at CQC. This means a skewed range/frame data balance where both are in his favor, an actual combo game should he get in, and moves that can't be outprioritized easily or at all.

The name of the game is "Ganondorf sucks until he is in close range, then he's the best character ever". And this is again balanced by his mobility being terrible. That is not what we have in Ultimate despite his mobility being barely buffed compared to the standard of the game, so theoretically, he shouldn't be good enough.
Wait... isn't “sucks outside of close range, where he’s amazing, but his terrible mobility hampers his ability to get close to begin with” a more apt description of Incineroar?
 
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Wait... isn't “sucks outside of close range, where he’s amazing, but his terrible mobility hampers his ability to get close to begin with” a more apt description of Incineroar?
Well my friend, I'm glad you noticed that, because Incineroar is basically Ganon's archetype done correctly (and even then, Incineroar could use some buffs here and there, but that's less about his archetype being fundamentally broken and more just tweaked in some areas).

This is another reason why I think Ganon could get a more fully fleshed out rework too, because Incineroar kinda covers that archetype in its most pure form. Now I'm not saying a roster of a prospective 80 characters can't share archetypes or gameplans, but they need to differ in some less superficial areas. Making Ganon better at CQC via combos and great frame data will turn him into Incineroar, so we can go the other way and have his close range power be based on pure kill power and option coverage/range. Of course, like I said with the Bowser rework thread, Ganon still needs SOME good frame data moves to work in neutral with, as well as anti-zoning capabilities and anti-disjoint capabilities.
 

J0eyboi

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You mean Ultimate's changes weren't enough? What is it about Ganondorf that's crippling him besides his poor mobility?
First of all, poor mobility is a huge problem.

Second of all, a bunch of his moves overlap in functionality or are just plain useless. Flame Choke, Wizard Kick, dash attack, and dash grab are all burst options for forcing his way in, and he really doesn't need 4 of those. Uair is a high-damage aerial with a lot of active frames that's useful for edgeguarding, but so is Nair. Ftilt and Dtilt are used in almost all of the same situations for almost all of the same reasons, with the only thing meaningfully separating the two being their launch angles and Ftilt's greater kill power. Then there are the moves that just suck. Utilt is complete garbage and should never be used in a serious match. Same goes for Warlock Punch (even his awful moves have functionality overlap). Fsmash is so slow that no one should ever get hit by it unless you read their getup option after a missed tech on Flame Choke, which shouldn't really happen that often given that Flame Choke is easier to tech now. Fair is worse than Bair in virtually every way.

So that's 4 moves that are pretty much useless and 3-4 sets of moves that are basically identical to each other. That means Ganon has something like 8 dead moveslots, which is not a good look in a game where most characters only have 16 of those. A full half of his moveset is either worthless or redundant. On top of that, another 2 or 3 moves are technically useful, but extremely situational. Ganon has one of the smallest toolkits in the game as a result, which leaves him sorely lacking for options in a lot of situations.

Third, he has one of the worst recoveries in the game. Being heavy is nice and all, but when I can get a guaranteed runoff fair gimp on you any time I hit you offstage above 70%, your weight starts to matter a lot less.

It's not like Ganon has to be like this, either. You could solve the recovery issue and eliminate a moveset redundancy by just making Wizard Kick restore your jump like it did in Melee (and also maybe make aerial Wizard Kick travel more horizontally) or making Flame Choke not put you into freefall. Uair and Nair would overlap much less if Uair sent at a more vertical angle the way Falcon's does (and maybe did less damage to compensate), as it would juggle better even if it had too much knockback to combo well (I'm not saying Ganon's Uair has to combo like Falcon's and it probably shouldn't, but just the angle makes it much more distinct). Give Dtilt less knockback, a bit less endlag, and a slightly more vertical knockback angle, and it can be a proper combo starter instead of being awkwardly in between a combo tool and kill move. Given that Ganon now has a sword, Fair could be turned from a garbage move into a solid spacing tool if you made it a sword swing (kinda like Ike fair but slower, or like Ganon's fair in the Smash 4 mod Vishera made in which Ganon used a sword except it wouldn't spike) instead of an overhead punch. Utilt, Warlock Punch, and Fsmash would have to be pretty thoroughly reworked to be made useful, but 3 useless/redundant moves is a hell of a lot better than 8.

Only problem now is that a lot of the changes I just suggested for Ganon only make him more similar to Incineroar, but I don't think there's a good way to buff Ganon without either making him dumb or more like Incineroar. They'll at least always be separated by one of the two having the best counter in the game.
 
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First of all, poor mobility is a huge problem.
While technically a huge problem, I honestly can see a character as slow as Ganon working in Smash. He just needs to be fast in places that are vital, such as OOS options, neutral spacing moves, etc. I'd rather Ganon stay slow in movespeed but become faster or better in other ways.

Second of all, a bunch of his moves overlap in functionality or are just plain useless. Flame Choke, Wizard Kick, dash attack, and dash grab are all burst options for forcing his way in, and he really doesn't need 4 of those.
Maybe not 4, but having more than one is not a crime, else the fact everyone's dash grab closes distance means no one can have a gap closer special move. I already said I personally would change Flame Choke, but Wizard's Foot accompanying his dash attack and dash grab I feel are fine honestly. Just make dash attack destroy projectiles and make Wizard's Foot go further, and both are different enough to have different uses.

Uair is a high-damage aerial with a lot of active frames that's useful for edgeguarding, but so is Nair.
You forget that in Ultimate, they nerfed UAir's range to be only above Ganon, so their hitbox placement is very different. I would say this is enough to differentiate them in non-edgeguarding situations, since you wouldn't want to fastfall short hop UAir rather than NAir, and you wouldn't want to harass platforms with NAir rather than UAir.

Ftilt and Dtilt are used in almost all of the same situations for almost all of the same reasons, with the only thing meaningfully separating the two being their launch angles and Ftilt's greater kill power.
I'll grant you that. FTilt I'm fine with. I think DTilt needs to be more combo oriented to differ itself from FTilt.

Then there are the moves that just suck. Utilt is complete garbage and should never be used in a serious match. Same goes for Warlock Punch (even his awful moves have functionality overlap).
While I disagree UTilt as complete garbage considering its massive hitbox and far less endlag, I definitely agree it still does suck overall and should be replaced. Warlock Punch should also just kick the bucket honestly.

Fsmash is so slow that no one should ever get hit by it unless you read their getup option after a missed tech on Flame Choke, which shouldn't really happen that often given that Flame Choke is easier to tech now.
IDK, a lot of recent competitive Ganondorf play I've been seeing has used FSmash as a great anti-air and anti-approach due to the range above Ganon. Plus, USmash is the better smash attack for tech chases anyway.

Fair is worse than Bair in virtually every way.
Welcome to almost every character in the game. BAirs have traditionally been stronger than FAirs for a while now. Both in kill power, and damage, as well as lag in most cases too.
 

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While technically a huge problem, I honestly can see a character as slow as Ganon working in Smash.
I have a very hard time believing that a low mobility character will ever be high or top tier in this series when it has historically favored mobile characters
 
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I have a very hard time believing that a low mobility character will ever be high or top tier in this series when it has historically favored mobile characters
What makes a character better than another at bottom? I would say it's the amount of options they are given to play with. This is why Melee Fox is so broken he has a tier of his own, because he has more options than the rest of the cast. Same for Meta Knight and Bayonetta. They have more options to succeed than their peers.

More movement will technically give you more options (more ability to tech chase, more combo ability, etc.) but that alone is not enough. It also is a shortcut to it, but not the only way to give your characters more options. The reason I think mobile characters have more options than slower ones in almost every smash game has less to do with their movement and more to do with the game's systems not giving alternative ways to amply supply slower characters with options of their own.

For a recent example I came up with, let's take Kirby and his poor horizontal airspeed. You want to design him as a combo based character right? Well the easy thing to do is to make his air speed higher in order for him to expand his combo tree. However, there is another way. I proposed making Kirby's combo tree and combo ability more vertically inclined as well as increasing hitstun for horizontal combo moves like FAir. The former can be expanded by lowering knockback growth of vertical moves like UTilt, UAir, and even USmash's base knockback for early USmash combos. You could also orient some of his faster aerials like NAir and BAir to launch further upwards too as well as give him higher jump height on his multijumps. You'll notice all of these changes have been done before in Smash and are reasonable changes without increasing Kirby's horizontal airspeed.

The latter is something different altogether, and something Smash Bros doesn't really do, and it would grant many options horizontally for Kirby. More hitstun means many things that are either marginally different from extra horizontal movement, or overlap. More hitstun means the enemy has a bigger window to tech but not as much time to jump, dodge, or attack out of their hitstun, limiting their options, and in turn strengthening Kirby's. Besides that, more hitstun means Kirby can use his actually respectable horizontal ground movement to catch up to the horizontally launched enemy to continue his combo strings, essentially doing the same result as increasing his horizontal movement speed. Lastly, more hitstun means better kill confirm opportunities, something more movement also grants.

The hitstun increase grants Kirby a lot of options to work with while still making his lateral coverage in neutral worse than usual. This is how we create very specific strengths and weaknesses in fighters. Now Kirby can combo pretty well, but still has trouble against zoners and faster disjoints because we didn't actually change his movement speed yet gave him more options to work with when the cards are in his favor.

This is one example out of MANY I can come up with for how mobility is not the be all end all of viability in Smash.
 
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J0eyboi

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Maybe not 4, but having more than one is not a crime, else the fact everyone's dash grab closes distance means no one can have a gap closer special move. I already said I personally would change Flame Choke, but Wizard's Foot accompanying his dash attack and dash grab I feel are fine honestly. Just make dash attack destroy projectiles and make Wizard's Foot go further, and both are different enough to have different uses.
Two issues.

1: Having gap closer specials is fine if your burst range outside of them is bad, but Ganon's burst range is really good, even without Wizard Kick. Dash grab isn't a great burst option which makes Flame Choke excusable imo.

2: Wizard Kick already goes through most projectiles. Giving that to dash attack removes Wizard Kick's only niche.

You forget that in Ultimate, they nerfed UAir's range to be only above Ganon,
They really didn't. It doesn't really hit below him anymore, but it still very much hits in front of him.

I would say this is enough to differentiate them in non-edgeguarding situations, since you wouldn't want to fastfall short hop UAir rather than NAir, and you wouldn't want to harass platforms with NAir rather than UAir.
Nair can pressure platforms too. I'm not saying Uair isn't different, but it's way too similar to deserve a moveslot that could contain something other than another high damage, extremely active aerial that sends horizontally.

IDK, a lot of recent competitive Ganondorf play I've been seeing has used FSmash as a great anti-air and anti-approach due to the range above Ganon. Plus, USmash is the better smash attack for tech chases anyway.
Usmash is also the better antiair. Fsmash is outclassed by his other moves at basically everything.

Welcome to almost every character in the game. BAirs have traditionally been stronger than FAirs for a while now. Both in kill power, and damage, as well as lag in most cases too.
Not really. That's true in a select few cases, but most Bairs are either completely different tools from the character's Fair (eg Pika, M2, Corrin, Mario), or similar but with enough differentiating factors to make whether you use one or the other a decision (eg Marth and co, Pits). Ganon's Fair is just worse than his Bair. About the same damage, 4 frames slower, 2 frames more landing lag, 9 frames more endlag, about the same knockback, and a worse autocancel window. Its hitbox is its only saving grace, and its hitbox isn't even good; I'm pretty sure Bair has more horizontal range too.
 
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Luigifan18

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Personally, I’d like to see Warlock Punch be replaced with Dead Man's Volley. It would still have awful startup speed (Ganondorf sure takes his sweet time preparing his magic spheres in Ocarina of Time), but it would be a projectile with huge damage and knockback, amazing range, and solid movement speed, and preferably one that can be aimed in several directions (or even freely) so the opponent can’t just take cover on a platform. The idea would be forcing the opponent to respond by either shielding/dodging/absorbing, attacking the projectile to send it back, or rushing Ganondorf to try to stop him from launching it in the first place; if the opponent does either of the first two, Ganondorf has a window of time to approach while the enemy is taking defensive action, and if they rush Ganondorf, he doesn't even have to approach because they’ve done it for him. Ganondorf can’t really camp or zone very well with this projectile (despite its flexibility in where he sends it) because it takes around a second to launch and the opponent can hit it back at him; granted, he can hit it back himself, but good luck with that with his frame data. It’s really meant more to stop the opponent's zoning or camping.
 
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Two issues.

1: Having gap closer specials is fine if your burst range outside of them is bad, but Ganon's burst range is really good, even without Wizard Kick. Dash grab isn't a great burst option which makes Flame Choke excusable imo.

2: Wizard Kick already goes through most projectiles. Giving that to dash attack removes Wizard Kick's only niche.
I will admit I was spitballing ideas, plus, I'm still thinking about all dash attacks destroying projectiles because that's a good idea for everyone to have as a rule. Wizard's Foot can be the niche of going off ledges while dash attack doesn't, meaning it's also a combo tool in certain cases. If that's not enough, go the extra mile and have no endlag on it when Ganon does it on the ground so he instead is airborne at the end of it regardless of where you start it. This way it can be a shield pressure tool since Ganon can WF someone's shield and use a shorthop or full hop aerial to catch their jump OOS. Or just grab them.


They really didn't. It doesn't really hit below him anymore, but it still very much hits in front of him.



Nair can pressure platforms too. I'm not saying Uair isn't different, but it's way too similar to deserve a moveslot that could contain something other than another high damage, extremely active aerial that sends horizontally.
I kinda get what you mean, but there are plenty of other ways to differentiate them in more nuanced ways. For example, have UAir have more hitstun to cause early tech situations more often, or have NAir push back shields while UAir doesn't or vice versa. It creates less overlap and gives each move more uses. You don't just have to say "make UAir like almost every other one".



Usmash is also the better antiair. Fsmash is outclassed by his other moves at basically everything.
Except in some cases it's not the better anti-air due to the "reeling" back of the sword having a hitbox, meaning FSmash's only blind spot is right behind Ganon on the ground. It also has far more shield pressure, range, and kill power than USmash. FSmash is basically the riskier USmash, but that's how a lot of smash attacks are honestly.



Not really. That's true in a select few cases, but most Bairs are either completely different tools from the character's Fair (eg Pika, M2, Corrin, Mario), or similar but with enough differentiating factors to make whether you use one or the other a decision (eg Marth and co, Pits). Ganon's Fair is just worse than his Bair. About the same damage, 4 frames slower, 2 frames more landing lag, 9 frames more endlag, about the same knockback, and a worse autocancel window. Its hitbox is its only saving grace, and its hitbox isn't even good; I'm pretty sure Bair has more horizontal range too.
What would you give FAir that would fit with Ganon's general playstyle that also differentiates it from BAir? I personally would make it a combo oriented move, but maybe you have a different idea.
 

J0eyboi

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I kinda get what you mean, but there are plenty of other ways to differentiate them in more nuanced ways. For example, have UAir have more hitstun to cause early tech situations more often, or have NAir push back shields while UAir doesn't or vice versa. It creates less overlap and gives each move more uses. You don't just have to say "make UAir like almost every other one".
Uair having more hitstun, besides not really being possible given the current game engine, is entirely incongruous with the one niche it has over Nair: its use as a sharking tool. You can't set up tech chases with a move that doesn't spike when you're hitting your opponent out of the air.

I suggested Uair have a more vertical launch angle for the same reason. Uair has a bunch contradictory traits that don't belong on the same move. If it's supposed to be a sharking/juggling tool, why does it launch foes away from Ganon, instead of upwards which would allow for continued juggling/sharking? If it's an edgeguarding tool, why is so much of its hitbox above Ganon, where it's least useful? It would be far better to just make Uair either a juggling tool or a neutral/edgeguarding tool, rather than both, and because Nair has the latter covered, the former makes more sense. Ganon doesn't have enough space in his moveset to to afford two slots being taken up by moves as similar as these.

Except in some cases it's not the better anti-air due to the "reeling" back of the sword having a hitbox, meaning FSmash's only blind spot is right behind Ganon on the ground. It also has far more shield pressure, range, and kill power than USmash. FSmash is basically the riskier USmash, but that's how a lot of smash attacks are honestly.
Here's the thing: Usmash does the same damage and covers most of the same space that Fsmash does, while being significantly faster. It has less range, but it's still massive to the point where that barely matters.

What would you give FAir that would fit with Ganon's general playstyle that also differentiates it from BAir? I personally would make it a combo oriented move, but maybe you have a different idea.
Like I said, I'd make him use his sword. Ganon doesn't really need more combo tools, given that he can take you 2/3s of the way to kill % off a Dthrow at 0 and does so much damage per hit anyway. He would, however, appreciate more midrange options, so he can counterpoke and play footsies better. To prevent it from being too strong a spacing/zoning option, you could increase the startup and landing lag a bit (make it like frame 18 with 15f landing lag or so). Giving Ganon more options outside of close quarters also means you don't have to make him overwhelmingly strong in close quarters, which is more likely to result in a character who is less polarizing and thus more fun to play with.
 

Quillion

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Personally, I’d like to see Warlock Punch be replaced with Dead Man's Volley. It would still have awful startup speed (Ganondorf sure takes his sweet time preparing his magic spheres in Ocarina of Time), but it would be a projectile with huge damage and knockback, amazing range, and solid movement speed, and preferably one that can be aimed in several directions (or even freely) so the opponent can’t just take cover on a platform. The idea would be forcing the opponent to respond by either shielding/dodging/absorbing, attacking the projectile to send it back, or rushing Ganondorf to try to stop him from launching it in the first place; if the opponent does either of the first two, Ganondorf has a window of time to approach while the enemy is taking defensive action, and if they rush Ganondorf, he doesn't even have to approach because they’ve done it for him. Ganondorf can’t really camp or zone very well with this projectile (despite its flexibility in where he sends it) because it takes around a second to launch and the opponent can hit it back at him; granted, he can hit it back himself, but good luck with that with his frame data. It’s really meant more to stop the opponent's zoning or camping.
That wouldn't gel well with Ganondorf's established style though. He's all about getting in close and ending a stock in a few hits.

I think some armor like Bowser or K. Rool would be a better way to maintain his style.

All of that said, I could see some of his moves being reworked to have some magical effects at the end for much needed range, and I do share J0eyboi J0eyboi 's opinion that he should have gotten a sword aerial for viability (if not enjoyability).
 
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