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What Are Your Unpopular Gaming Opinions? (Ver. 2)

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,640
but you didn't get the variety of previous 3D Sonic games. It felt very repetitive.
You know, I'm starting to think that without those "slow moments" in Sonic games in general, whether that be individual levels like Marble Zone or entire alternate gameplay styles like Treasure Hunting and the Werehog, the core speed-focused Sonic gameplay is just inherently repetitive.

It's just much harder to quest around or explore when you move so fast that things blur by you, so there's really not much reason to have those "quest" elements in a Sonic game that give most other games their variety. And when the Sonic devs try to incorporate those things into Sonic by giving them their own dedicated space, people complain.

You can't really win here. It's either consistent repetition or unfocused variety.
 

DragonRobotKing26

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
2,307
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Earth-201769
I don't really like the modern mainline Resident Evil games (RE7 and RE8,not the remakes),these games looks like a generic modern horror games,Ethan who is the protagonist of the game is a typical generic and common video game protagonist who is silent on RE7 and doesn't have the face revealed,RE7 i consider the worst but not too much as RE5 and RE6,the family baker is more for a evil family who can works on a horror movie than Resident Evil,also i consider Lady Dimitrescu a little bit generic

And my fear is how could be resident Evil 9,it will be the same the two last ones
 

Champion of Hyrule

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
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*doxxes myself*
Dragon Ball FighterZ actually has a lot of potential for a sequel. The biggest potential issue would be the roster but the way it handles characters and their transformations is actually pretty easy to subvert. As an example you could make Goku’s base form his default and switch which other forms are separate rodter slots and just generally switch up movesets. They could even add characters who wouldn’t really make sense for DBFZ1 like Super Buu or an individual Ginyu force member. Plus more of a focus on OG dragon ball would be very cool, gimme Tao Pai Pai already.

The game has a lot of mechanical depth too and switching up more aspects of gameplay could actually make a huge difference. Hope the stages are better too. ArcSys should definitely make a fighting game for a different anime like One Piece first though.
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
21,163
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Scotland
Another Code has some of the best written characters in all of gaming. especially after the remakes cleaned up the dialogue
 
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Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,482
Location
Germany
Plus more of a focus on OG dragon ball would be very cool, gimme Tao Pai Pai already.
👆This Im sadly not the biggest fan of kakarot and dont have great online so the classic stuff in those games isnt for me personally!
anyways here is the base roster for my DBFZ 2
1707396581055.png

A lot of the more popular characters would have been dlc! Instead with this i focused more on the basics!
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
21,163
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Scotland
I unironically think working with fans who are genuinely passionate about their franchises is the best thing SEGA has done with Sonic and more video game companies should follow that example, especially Nintendo.
have you met passionate Nintendo fans?
 

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,482
Location
Germany
I unironically think working with fans who are genuinely passionate about their franchises is the best thing SEGA has done with Sonic and more video game companies should follow that example, especially Nintendo.
have you met passionate Nintendo fans?
I for example am a passionate nintendo fan and granted i get why people feel betrayed by some of their decisions but as someone who actually made a franchise i can atleast understand the want to shgut down bigger unauthorized Projects!
Also saying Nintedno= Bad ignores that a majority of nintendos staff just wants to make great games and usually trhose games are great!

I mean i heard people throw out hate at nintendo because they took down a fan remake of a game that they wanted to remake themselves (Metroid 2)
They were 100% in the right as soon as they released samus returns!
Now they could be somewhat nicer to be sure and especially offer more alternatives but most of their moves make atleast some sense!
 

Champion of Hyrule

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*doxxes myself*
The feature in the final fantasy remasters that lets you do stuff like fully restore health or deal a certain amount of damage is a bit clunky but it’s a great feature.

The fact that you can basically permanently screw over a save file by missing out on a detail of character progression or being slightly under leveled in a turn based RPG is legitimately one of the most hostile thing I’ve ever seen to new players, and a serious problem with the genre. An RPG should at least people some kind of way out of being screwed over like this.

I think a good idea would be to have a training mode which you can access at any time to prevent someone from being under leveled at a boss.
 

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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The feature in the final fantasy remasters that lets you do stuff like fully restore health or deal a certain amount of damage is a bit clunky but it’s a great feature.

The fact that you can basically permanently screw over a save file by missing out on a detail of character progression or being slightly under leveled in a turn based RPG is legitimately one of the most hostile thing I’ve ever seen to new players, and a serious problem with the genre. An RPG should at least people some kind of way out of being screwed over like this.

I think a good idea would be to have a training mode which you can access at any time to prevent someone from being under leveled at a boss.
Yeah i didnt finish dragonquest 7 because of how afwul it was designed!
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,027
You know, I'm starting to think that without those "slow moments" in Sonic games in general, whether that be individual levels like Marble Zone or entire alternate gameplay styles like Treasure Hunting and the Werehog, the core speed-focused Sonic gameplay is just inherently repetitive.

It's just much harder to quest around or explore when you move so fast that things blur by you, so there's really not much reason to have those "quest" elements in a Sonic game that give most other games their variety. And when the Sonic devs try to incorporate those things into Sonic by giving them their own dedicated space, people complain.

You can't really win here. It's either consistent repetition or unfocused variety.
What gets lost in the discussion about alternative playstyles are a perfectly fine concept... in moderation. When executed with restraint they can add real novelty to a game and shake up eventual monotony of a playthrough. Look at the Super Mario Galaxy titles; they have stars/levels based around motion control experiments and while not all of them stick the landing, they rarely last long enough to effectively hurt the overall experience. They're a bit of spice in the SMG duology that works within the context of that pair of games.

However, the more you have alternative experiences dominate the playthrough and the more the former drifts from the mainline game, the greater the risk in the concept not being executed as well while also potentially alienating fans that bought the release for the style/genre they actually want. Its why Sonic Adventure 2 will never appeal to all Sonic fans because even if you view the mech shooting and treasure hunts as having inherently good design, they're not going to be enduring to people that simply prefer speed-oriented platform stages.

It's worth noting that Big's fishing aside, the other styles in SA1 went for either a platformer or speed emphasis, with Gamma being much quicker than Eggman or Tails would be in the sequel, Amy having to be on the move to escape the badnik chasing her, and the radar system allowing Knuckles' sections to not play nearly as long. Even with their flaws it could be argued that much of Adventure keeps to the spirit of Sonic with its core philosophy even if the gameplay does differ in some respects.

Moreover, from a practical standpoint if the ratio of experimental playstyle continues being a pattern, then a game series can quickly gain the reputation of a having a gameplay roulette. That's a distinction than can be potentially poisonous because unless such an idea is baked into the game's identity (Mario Party with its numerous mini-games) then a market could very be reticent about trying the games because they're not entirely certain of what they're getting.The reason Colors got as much good press as it did was because it kept things straightforward and gave players a 2D/3D platformer with novelty coming from Wisp powers. It's an experiment that still stays within typical Sonic and is a much more consistent release because of it.

tl:dr Alternate playstyles can add a lot to games, but like so many other elements in Sonic it's an idea that needs to be tempered by common sense application and selectively utilized in the right circumstances.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,640
What gets lost in the discussion about alternative playstyles are a perfectly fine concept... in moderation. When executed with restraint they can add real novelty to a game and shake up eventual monotony of a playthrough. Look at the Super Mario Galaxy titles; they have stars/levels based around motion control experiments and while not all of them stick the landing, they rarely last long enough to effectively hurt the overall experience. They're a bit of spice in the SMG duology that works within the context of that pair of games.

However, the more you have alternative experiences dominate the playthrough and the more the former drifts from the mainline game, the greater the risk in the concept not being executed as well while also potentially alienating fans that bought the release for the style/genre they actually want. Its why Sonic Adventure 2 will never appeal to all Sonic fans because even if you view the mech shooting and treasure hunts as having inherently good design, they're not going to be enduring to people that simply prefer speed-oriented platform stages.

It's worth noting that Big's fishing aside, the other styles in SA1 went for either a platformer or speed emphasis, with Gamma being much quicker than Eggman or Tails would be in the sequel, Amy having to be on the move to escape the badnik chasing her, and the radar system allowing Knuckles' sections to not play nearly as long. Even with their flaws it could be argued that much of Adventure keeps to the spirit of Sonic with its core philosophy even if the gameplay does differ in some respects.

Moreover, from a practical standpoint if the ratio of experimental playstyle continues being a pattern, then a game series can quickly gain the reputation of a having a gameplay roulette. That's a distinction than can be potentially poisonous because unless such an idea is baked into the game's identity (Mario Party with its numerous mini-games) then a market could very be reticent about trying the games because they're not entirely certain of what they're getting.The reason Colors got as much good press as it did was because it kept things straightforward and gave players a 2D/3D platformer with novelty coming from Wisp powers. It's an experiment that still stays within typical Sonic and is a much more consistent release because of it.

tl:dr Alternate playstyles can add a lot to games, but like so many other elements in Sonic it's an idea that needs to be tempered by common sense application and selectively utilized in the right circumstances.
Yeah, a little gameplay mix-ups here and there are good in any game, I can see that.

Still though, would any Sonic game be anything more than repetitive without either those or the "slow moments" like Marble Zone? My point is that Sonic's speed focus design is just inherently repetitive unless they actively go against it.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,027
Yeah, a little gameplay mix-ups here and there are good in any game, I can see that.

Still though, would any Sonic game be anything more than repetitive without either those or the "slow moments" like Marble Zone? My point is that Sonic's speed focus design is just inherently repetitive unless they actively go against it.
Less speedy sections can be better utilized if it's an issue of experience and skill being able to effectively to work around it. Marble Zone's real failure isn't that its slow, it's that such sections are effectively mandatory. It reeks of the kind of platforming that Yuji Naki ironically cited as his issue with Mario; completing the level effectively takes the same amount of time no matter how skilled you are. Compare that to something like Aquatic Ruin Zone from Sonic 2, which also has slow underwater bits... that can be effectively ignored in favor of the higher speedier paths if you're good enough to get to them.

That central philosophy is a solid one to generally build upon for 3D Sonic; beginners/casuals will have speedy spectacle sections but generally slower platforming while the more experienced players will be able to go through them much quicker. You then build upon further replay value with two gameplay elements:

-Other quick playable characters with their own quirks (and level changes to really give motivation to replay stage remixes) that still play similar enough to Sonic (Shadow, Blaze, Metal Sonic etc)

-Incentivize further exploration through things like Red Rings, alternate exits, and (for the hardcores) a fair ranking system with its own potential rewards.

With that kind of framework, it's where you can have further select variations in gameplay style to effectively mix up the overall experience. Build upon the best friend missions from Generations so you can tie in Tails, Knuckles. Amy, Cream etc. for ideal gameplay sections in the same way the game (presumably) has for the story itself.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,640
Less speedy sections can be better utilized if it's an issue of experience and skill being able to effectively to work around it. Marble Zone's real failure isn't that its slow, it's that such sections are effectively mandatory. It reeks of the kind of platforming that Yuji Naki ironically cited as his issue with Mario; completing the level effectively takes the same amount of time no matter how skilled you are. Compare that to something like Aquatic Ruin Zone from Sonic 2, which also has slow underwater bits... that can be effectively ignored in favor of the higher speedier paths if you're good enough to get to them.

That central philosophy is a solid one to generally build upon for 3D Sonic; beginners/casuals will have speedy spectacle sections but generally slower platforming while the more experienced players will be able to go through them much quicker. You then build upon further replay value with two gameplay elements:

-Other quick playable characters with their own quirks (and level changes to really give motivation to replay stage remixes) that still play similar enough to Sonic (Shadow, Blaze, Metal Sonic etc)

-Incentivize further exploration through things like Red Rings, alternate exits, and (for the hardcores) a fair ranking system with its own potential rewards.

With that kind of framework, it's where you can have further select variations in gameplay style to effectively mix up the overall experience. Build upon the best friend missions from Generations so you can tie in Tails, Knuckles. Amy, Cream etc. for ideal gameplay sections in the same way the game (presumably) has for the story itself.
You do realize that in that sense, skill just makes the game MORE repetitive than less. I'm even saying this as someone who outright likes repetitive games and wishes repetition was seen as a tool used well or badly rather than a bad thing.

Side note, Naka clearly isn't a Mario speedrunner.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,027
You do realize that in that sense, skill just makes the game MORE repetitive than less. I'm even saying this as someone who outright likes repetitive games and wishes repetition was seen as a tool used well or badly rather than a bad thing.

Side note, Naka clearly isn't a Mario speedrunner.
In fairness to Naka, the speedrunning phenomenon wasn't really huge circa the late 80s when Sonic was initially being thought about, so lack of knowledge about exploits and skip tricks at that point is understandable.

With the former point, I think dedicated Sonic fans (the ones most likely to develop the kind of skill mastery we're talking about here) are the ones that often least object to certain repetitive elements either because they're focused on getting better or simply enjoy replaying the levels that much.

The ideal balance in this hypothetical is that if you just casually like Sonic or are into platformers generally, you could get a decently wide range of content in a few standard playthroughs via the multiple speedy characters, variable (but not excessive) friend missions, and some collection of stuff like Red Rings; all without necessarily changing up the gameplay too much. However, for a hardcore fan, any eventual repetition you do inevitably experience will be one you're not inclined to be bothered by because you'd be the type of fan that loves going for A ranks, grabbing all collectables, and getting stuff like secret exits/time bonuses. Essentially a game deep/long enough to for casuals to enjoy a few times but with the type of repetition utilization that hardcore fans would gladly dive into.
 

Champion of Hyrule

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*doxxes myself*
Difficulty in and of itself is not an effective way to keep players on the right path in games, unless it’s an RPG where the enemy levels are shown to be higher. A lot of players will just brute force their way through areas that they’re not technically supposed to be and they can be punished for it. There’s definitely plenty of new players who have went to a higher level area in a game like dark souls or elden ring and thought all the unintended difficulty was natural because they heard the game was hard
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
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Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,640
Difficulty in and of itself is not an effective way to keep players on the right path in games, unless it’s an RPG where the enemy levels are shown to be higher. A lot of players will just brute force their way through areas that they’re not technically supposed to be and they can be punished for it. There’s definitely plenty of new players who have went to a higher level area in a game like dark souls or elden ring and thought all the unintended difficulty was natural because they heard the game was hard
In and of itself, I agree, but it's still better than literal hallways.
----
Now that I keep hearing more about the indie video game sector, the more it feels like it's grown to be not so different from the AAA sector.

People romanticize it as a fountain of new ideas... but that was more true in the indie sector's early days. And even then that's not so different from how the video game industry as a whole was a fountain of new ideas before it became increasingly corporatized.

Indie visual styles being more unique than generic "realistic" AAA games? Lately, they've been standardizing to 16-bit styles that are generic in their own right, not to mention use of stock assets in polygonal games.

Indie games come up with new gameplay styles and genres as opposed to oversaturated shooters and open world AAA games? The indie space is now oversaturated with these "horror based on childhood experience" games and Metroidvanias.

Honestly, all this praise for the indie space feels better directed towards its early days which are no longer around.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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I think a really effective use of VR would be for recreating arcade experiences. While it would never be quite the same as the real life was, being able to look around while playing a Street Fighter II or Pac-Man and then seeing one's preferred style old school arcade would really add to the whole thing.
 
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Perkilator

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
10,598
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The perpetual trash fire known as Planet Earth(tm)
I think a really effective use of VR would be for recreating arcade experiences. While it would never be quite the same as living it then, being able to look around while playing a Street Fighter II or Pac-Man and then seeing one's preferred style old school arcade would really add to the whole playthrough.
VR would lend itself pretty well to light gun games like House of the Dead and Time Crisis.
 

Oracle Link

Smash Master
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A star conquering travler is really underated its one of the longest Boss themes of all time! Even longer than the beloved Dancing Mad!
Shimering star in particular is one of the most emotional songs in gaming!
 

LiveStudioAudience

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As baffling and (even occasionally) downright lousy certain Western box art could be in the 80s through the 2000s, I have to admit, I kind of miss game cases going for a different style in representing the game. There was an odd sort of artistry to having the aspects of a game being done through a different aesthetic lens with covers and while box art today is much more faithful, it's a bit less interesting overall.
 

Rizen

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IDK how unpopular this is but Peach Showtime looks like a really mediocre and linear collection of minigames only suited for kids. It just doesn't look like a good game.
 

Oracle Link

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IDK how unpopular this is but Peach Showtime looks like a really mediocre and linear collection of minigames only suited for kids. It just doesn't look like a good game.
I mean it is made by goodfeel goodfeel usually makes more kids suited game for example look at their kirby game it removed lives and the possibility of death and removed the copy abilitys (that were specifically a feature directed at older players) and had a much more goofy final boss than usual!
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
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Messages
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IDK how unpopular this is but Peach Showtime looks like a really mediocre and linear collection of minigames only suited for kids. It just doesn't look like a good game.
While I dislike the notion that linearity (not that openness is any better) and being for kids are inherently bad things, Peach Showtime does look really unfocused, and even just playing the demo reinforced my view.
 

Oracle Link

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Kirby is Super Underated!
Other than forgotten land almost every other kirby game gets called boring and formularic!
Like 2d kirby is as formulaic as Mario Wonder (okay a bit more than wonder but not by much) Keeping the og Playstyle arround isnt a negative!
I mean star allies was hated Because "It ShOuLdNt HaVe BeEn 2D!" When the point of that game was celebrating everything that came before!
Up until Wonder Kirby 2d Games were straight up Better Than Mario 2d Games! More Powerups, more abilitys, cooler level themes, better story and bosses!
The Only things mario has is that it birthed a lot of the general jumpn run concept, has better level design and challenges the player a bit more!

I mean mario is great but most kirbys are a bit better!

Although in 3d mario is still better because forgotten land has some slight issues: Like Lacking movesets, bad conveiance!
And obvioulsy 3d mario is much more creative! But 3d Kirby can improve by incorporating pause screen descriptions (for both kirbys abilitys and bosses) aswell as Adding a second attack button to make the abilitys whole again!
3d Mario might still be better but oh boy can Kirby come extremly Close!
 

Quillion

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Messages
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I'm honestly glad that the whole "Mario mandate" thing happened after Super Paper Mario. Sure, I think they went too far with Paper Mario itself, but it was still a good thing for the series to re-establish its own rules so they could be broken again afterwards instead of going full-on "no rules". Super Paper Mario itself presented a danger of Mario turning into too much of a dumping ground for anything random the devs want to put in it, so they really had to stop.

I find that the whole ordeal is comparable to the decade hiatus Mega Man took from circa Maverick Hunter X to Mega Man 11. As creative as some of the games in that era were, they were getting increasingly lost in the shuffle of underwhelming execution in Star Force and ZX to a cavalcade of throwbacks and remakes such as MM9-10, Powered Up, and MHX. And considering that sales were starting to fail towards the end, they really needed to give the franchise a long break.

And finally, I think main series Pokémon is long past requiring longer time between games and instead needs to follow Mega Man's example in taking a long break.
 
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Wario Wario Wario

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I've said this a few times, but as someone who was super into that theory at its peak, I don't believe the "Mario Mandates" were ever a thing, at least not in the form people claim. A lot of the supposed "evidence" people talk about dates back to long before the Mario franchise started playing it safe, and everything else seems like a mix of bad creative decisions and overcorrections after equally as bad creative decisions. In fact, I'm not even sure if Mario IS breaking any molds late-Switch - MK8, MK7, Odyssey, Tropical Freeze, Rabbids 1, even 3D World which often gets lumped by name into the "corporate batch" are all extremely creative games. It feels very Banjo-Nuts-&-Bolts-ey, trying to blame the corporation for creative decisions you don't agree with instead of just accepting that artists can have bad ideas too, though there's less of an underlying console war agenda to this than with the "Microsoft forced Rare to make a car game" narriative.
 
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Quillion

Smash Hero
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Messages
5,640
I've said this a few times, but as someone who was super into that theory at its peak, I don't believe the "Mario Mandates" were ever a thing, at least not in the form people claim. A lot of the supposed "evidence" people talk about dates back to long before the Mario franchise started playing it safe, and everything else seems like a mix of bad creative decisions and overcorrections after equally as bad creative decisions. In fact, I'm not even sure if Mario IS breaking any molds late-Switch - MK8, MK7, Odyssey, Tropical Freeze, Rabbids 1, even 3D World which often gets lumped by name into the "corporate batch" are all extremely creative games. It feels very Banjo-Nuts-&-Bolts-ey, trying to blame the corporation for creative decisions you don't agree with instead of just accepting that artists can have bad ideas too, though there's less of an underlying console war agenda to this than with the "Microsoft forced Rare to make a car game" narriative.
If anything, the evidence points to the mandates being reserved to the spin-offs. The full creative freedom is reserved to the 3D team (as seen with Odyssey) and with the 2D team (as seen with Wonder).

It seems that Peach Showtime will be the first spin-off to break the mandates.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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As monotonous and visually unappealing as various late sixth gen/seventh gen titles were (never forget "real is brown"), I think in some ways the overall direction gaming took in that era and the generally bigger Western presence of the hobby needed to happen. The Japanese industry (especially third parties) had become stagnant after dominating console gaming for so long and needed to effectively rebuild itself to eventually become stronger. While many attempts to "Westernize" often ended dubiously, there were lessons that needed to be learned so they could come back so effectively in the 8th gen.

Furthermore, I think it had to go through a faux "mature title" with gritty aesthetic phase not only to get that era out of its system, but also to demonstrate that gaming was no better served by that than by it being entirely dominated by cartoonish and overly colorful settings. The medium in some ways needed to go to that extreme for it to realize that it was an extreme and then pull back. Relentless corporate pushes for GAAS aside, AAA gaming is much more diverse in genre and style now and between that and the indie scene has allowed for releases of all visual types to succeed.

It was the awkward adolescent phase of gaming that even with its numerous stumbles did help it become what it is today.
 

Oracle Link

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I'm honestly glad that the whole "Mario mandate" thing happened after Super Paper Mario. Sure, I think they went too far with Paper Mario itself, but it was still a good thing for the series to re-establish its own rules so they could be broken again afterwards instead of going full-on "no rules". Super Paper Mario itself presented a danger of Mario turning into too much of a dumping ground for anything random the devs want to put in it, so they really had to stop.

I find that the whole ordeal is comparable to the decade hiatus Mega Man took from circa Maverick Hunter X to Mega Man 11. As creative as some of the games in that era were, they were getting increasingly lost in the shuffle of underwhelming execution in Star Force and ZX to a cavalcade of throwbacks and remakes such as MM9-10, Powered Up, and MHX. And considering that sales were starting to fail towards the end, they really needed to give the franchise a long break.

And finally, I think main series Pokémon is long past requiring longer time between games and instead needs to follow Mega Man's example in taking a long break.
I mean im not saying mario has to be completly wack like odysey and Wonder are basically just the right ammount of crazy!
Bowser for example should stay the villain atleast most of the time!
And yeah as great as super paper marios story is it has nothing to do with mario nor with the other paper mario games tbh!
But still paper mario 1 isnt that crazy it still really feels like a typical mario story just a bit grander like odysey!
 

Quillion

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As monotonous and visually unappealing as various late sixth gen/seventh gen titles were (never forget "real is brown"), I think in some ways the overall direction gaming took in that era and the generally bigger Western presence of the hobby needed to happen. The Japanese industry (especially third parties) had become stagnant after dominating console gaming for so long and needed to effectively rebuild itself to eventually become stronger. While many attempts to "Westernize" often ended dubiously, there were lessons that needed to be learned so they could come back so effectively in the 8th gen.

Furthermore, I think it had to go through a faux "mature title" with gritty aesthetic phase not only to get that era out of its system, but also to demonstrate that gaming was no better served by that than by it being entirely dominated by cartoonish and overly colorful settings. The medium in some ways needed to go to that extreme for it to realize that it was an extreme and then pull back. Relentless corporate pushes for GAAS aside, AAA gaming is much more diverse in genre and style now and between that and the indie scene has allowed for releases of all visual types to succeed.

It was the awkward adolescent phase of gaming that even with its numerous stumbles did help it become what it is today.
It's not just that the 7th gen had its "edgy" phase, a lot of bad trends happened there on account of the rise of HD. Mid-size studios closed en masse, DLC started to be abused, Japanese games were hated because Phil Fish and Keiji Inafune kept talking them down, and most importantly, linear games dominated most of the gen since the tools and expertise to make explorable worlds in HD weren't widespread. Again, I respect linearity as an artistic choice, but 7th gen games really misused it.

All in all, it's easy to see that the 7th gen was almost as awkward as the leap-to-3D 5th gen, albeit for different reasons.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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It's not just that the 7th gen had its "edgy" phase, a lot of bad trends happened there on account of the rise of HD. Mid-size studios closed en masse, DLC started to be abused, Japanese games were hated because Phil Fish and Keiji Inafune kept talking them down, and most importantly, linear games dominated most of the gen since the tools and expertise to make explorable worlds in HD weren't widespread. Again, I respect linearity as an artistic choice, but 7th gen games really misused it.

All in all, it's easy to see that the 7th gen was almost as awkward as the leap-to-3D 5th gen, albeit for different reasons.
I think there's a general struggle/adjustment with pretty much every odd numbered generation because its the one setting up the new paradigm for the next one to essentially refine it.

The first gen was more or less inventing the idea of home console gaming with many numerous variations and experiments (one game consoles, controllers on the systems themselves) that the second generation shifted more into consoles with swappable cartridges, controllers via cords, and giving real shape/illustration to on screen graphics.

The third gen is strong and fairly consistent, but even then, still has some growing pains acting as the real estuary between simple games/compromised arcade ports to original games with strong depth. Difficulty and even saving are still being figured out and the problems of slowdown/flickering do become an issue. The fourth gen then acts as a much cleaner version of that with more balanced difficulty, less graphical hiccups, and the games generally age better than its predecessor titles do because the growing sophistication of both the audience and designers.

The fifth gen is the wild west with everyone trying to figure out 3D graphics and how even translate the nature of sprite work into polygons. Solving the problem of cameras alone is a monumental task with many franchises not quite making the leap past 2D games because of such struggles. It's the era most doomed to aged questionably because determining what the future of gaming might be was such an unknown. The sixth gen as a result is much smoother with an actual understanding of polygons, much better camera use, and more unified idea on how to actually do the third dimension.

The seventh gen is its own struggle with HD development hitting many developers (more Japanese than Western) hard and the genuine merge of the PC and console markets really takes off which presents its own problems to studios not used to that sort of development. Online play and digital games prove to be trickier to some than others, and then skyrocketing costs of HD production decimates AA gaming and causes much less risk taking with game concepts to avoid loss. The eighth gen in turn rectifies some of this with the indie scene now filling in the space of missing mid-level titles, developers a bit more experienced with HD assets, more diverse genres blooming again, and Japan eventually getting some of the market back with their own lessons learned.
 
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Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,640
I think there's a general struggle/adjustment with pretty much every odd numbered generation because its the one setting up the new paradigm for the next one to essentially refine it.

The first gen was essentially inventing the idea of home console gaming with many numerous variations and experiments (one game consoles, controllers on the systems themselves) that the second generation shifted more into consoles with swappable cartridges, controllers via cords, and giving real shape/illustration to on screen graphics.

The third gen is strong and fairly consistent, but even then, still has some growing pains acting as the real estuary between simple games/compromised arcade ports to original games with strong depth. Difficulty and even saving are still being figured out and the problems of slowdown/flickering do become an issue. The fourth gen then acts as a much cleaner version of that with more balanced difficulty, less graphical hiccups, and generally age better than its predecessor titles do because the growing sophisticated of both the audience and designers.

The fifth gen is the wild west with everyone trying to figure out 3D graphics and how even translate the nature of sprite work into polygons. Solving the problem of cameras alone is a monumental task with many franchises not quite making the leap past 2D games because of such struggles. It's the era most doomed to aged questionably because determining what the future of gaming might be was such an unknown. The sixth gen as a result is much smoother with an actual understanding of polygons, much better cameras, and more unified idea on how to actually do the third dimension.

The seventh gen is its own struggle with HD development hitting many developers (more Japanese than Western) hard and the genuine merge of the PC and console markets really takes off which presents its own problems to studios not used to that sort of development. Online play and digital games prove to be more tricky to some than others, and then skyrocketing costs of HD production decimates AA gaming and causes much less risk taking with game concepts to avoid loss. The eighth gen in turn rectifies some of this with the indie scene now filling in the space of missing mid-level titles, developers a bit more experienced with HD assets, more diverse genres blooming again, and Japan eventually getting some of the market back with their own lessons learned.
Never thought of looking at it that way. It all makes sense now.

Now we have the 9th gen finally suffering the effects of ballooning AAA costs (a problem with the whole entertainment industry even outside vidya too), with questionable business decisions like microtransactions designed to squeeze more money, consoles that are so powerful that studios can't muster the resources to take advantage of them, and tons of layoffs in western studios. Even much of the indie scene has started expressing some of the worse trends of the AAA industry in different ways, with early access glitchfests and trend-capitalizing "childhood indie horror" games galore.

But as you said, these cycles happen every odd-to-even gen, so I have high hopes for the 10th gen.

Come to think of it, it's really a miracle that Nintendo has survived all these awkward odd-gen transitions. Something about how they operate seems to allow them to weather all these crises.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
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Come to think of it, it's really a miracle that Nintendo has survived all these awkward odd-gen transitions. Something about how they operate seems to allow them to weather all these crises.
Nintendo, kind of like Sonic, is too big too fail. They can weather commercial failures like the WiiU and come out fine for the next project. It's why they're able to experiment like they do.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,027
Never thought of looking at it that way. It all makes sense now.

Now we have the 9th gen finally suffering the effects of ballooning AAA costs (a problem with the whole entertainment industry even outside vidya too), with questionable business decisions like microtransactions designed to squeeze more money, consoles that are so powerful that studios can't muster the resources to take advantage of them, and tons of layoffs in western studios. Even much of the indie scene has started expressing some of the worse trends of the AAA industry in different ways, with early access glitchfests and trend-capitalizing "childhood indie horror" games galore.

But as you said, these cycles happen every odd-to-even gen, so I have high hopes for the 10th gen.

Come to think of it, it's really a miracle that Nintendo has survived all these awkward odd-gen transitions. Something about how they operate seems to allow them to weather all these crises.
With Nintendo it's a case where they kept costs low, eventually went into the realm of alternative consoles do avoid the struggle/triumph cycle and had a strong revenue stream from the portable console market which was much less tumultuous. While you can split them into numerous eras depending on the criteria, I think 3rd through 6th could be seen as them still within the traditional console race and 7th and after is them making gains in the alternative system route. Nintendo essentially seeing the former as not one they were interested in competing in (with sales going down with each new system) explains the direction of much of the latter which (even with the failure of the Wii U) still has given them too extremely successful consoles.

Moreover, the reinvigoration of the Game Boy line via the Pocket and Pokémon (especially in a market like Japan where the N64 did terribly), likely confirmed to them that portable was the safest market to get a ROI for systems and games for the 20 or so years after. Okayish numbers for the Nintendo 64, underselling with Gamecube, and outright dreadful sales for the Wii U were effectively blunted by a line of GB, GBC, GBA, DS, & 3DS which effectively gave them a safety net no matter the status of their home console division. Nintendo may not have had a technical monopoly on it, but they so controlled that space so much that it tempered whatever chaotic waters they found themselves in otherwise.
 
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