What Are Your Unpopular Gaming Opinions? (Ver. 2)

[---]

In my timezone, it says my last post was yesterday.

still wasn’t 24 hours

I'll just merge the posts. It's not that big of a deal.

 

[fogbadge]

I'll just merge the posts. It's not that big of a deal.

sorry. just trying to help

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

This term is an exaggeration of course but I legitimately think bad video games (or bad movies) culture and the ways people complain about them is a case of collective delusion. I’m not saying this to say “[game that’s seen as bad] is actually good and if you disagree that’s mass delusion!” or even that most games seen as bad are actually good. I’m saying that a lot of bad games are talked about in a way that’s really illogical and unfair to them and you get a sense the people making those critiques are biased by wanting to see the game fail.

As an example I’ve genuinely seen people argue that Bubsy 3D deserves extreme scrutiny as a 3D platformer because it released after Super Mario 64 as if the few months between those games would be enough for them to change a game whose entire movement system is different. Or the infamous criticisms of Dark Souls II’s camera controls that almost certainly come from people doing the extremely stupid decision of locking onto a single enemy in a crowd (as pointed out by hbonberguy in his defense of dark souls 2 video). I don’t think people are dumb or anything for having extremely surface level, misguided criticisms of games but it seems to me that it comes from them hearing about a game’s flaws from content creators or reviewers and subconsciously thinking of it as not being worthy of their respect. When someone plays a game they don’t think of as serious they then have very surface level critiques of it and are deluded into latching into bizarre criticisms as fact. God knows that IGN reviewer who jumped over springs and ramps in Sonic Unleashed for some reason probably didn’t treat Sonic as being deserving of his time, and those misguided critiques are repeated in a self reinforcing cycle.

 

[Quillion]

I don’t think people are dumb or anything for having extremely surface level, misguided criticisms of games

I personally say people ARE dumb for having surface-level criticisms. Especially after seeing design goals or artistic decisions like linearity, repetition, slow pacing, difficulty, or large scale be treated as a bad thing time and time again. I consider myself dumb for ever thinking any of these were bad things.

Out of curiosity, what makes people not dumb for having extremely surface level, misguided criticisms?

 

[fogbadge]

This term is an exaggeration of course but I legitimately think bad video games (or bad movies) culture and the ways people complain about them is a case of collective delusion. I’m not saying this to say “[game that’s seen as bad] is actually good and if you disagree that’s mass delusion!” or even that most games seen as bad are actually good. I’m saying that a lot of bad games are talked about in a way that’s really illogical and unfair to them and you get a sense the people making those critiques are biased by wanting to see the game fail.

As an example I’ve genuinely seen people argue that Bubsy 3D deserves extreme scrutiny as a 3D platformer because it released after Super Mario 64 as if the few months between those games would be enough for them to change a game whose entire movement system is different. Or the infamous criticisms of Dark Souls II’s camera controls that almost certainly come from people doing the extremely stupid decision of locking onto a single enemy in a crowd (as pointed out by hbonberguy in his defense of dark souls 2 video). I don’t think people are dumb or anything for having extremely surface level, misguided criticisms of games but it seems to me that it comes from them hearing about a game’s flaws from content creators or reviewers and subconsciously thinking of it as not being worthy of their respect. When someone plays a game they don’t think of as serious they then have very surface level critiques of it and are deluded into latching into bizarre criticisms as fact. God knows that IGN reviewer who jumped over springs and ramps in Sonic Unleashed for some reason probably didn’t treat Sonic as being deserving of his time, and those misguided critiques are repeated in a self reinforcing cycle.

i think i know what you mean. i have certainly seen some people criticise things in very strange ways that feel like they're going out of they're way to find things to complain about

 

[Oracle Link]

The recent Garry's Mod situation has made me realise that Steam Workshop kinda sucks as a system. It's more convenient, yes, but giving the game's publisher responsibility over moderating mods makes DMCAs significantly more likely as the workshop could be considered part of the game or its marketing in a sense - plus, legal woes aside, troubleshooting is a lot harder if you're not adding the mods directly yourself and don't know where they go, (I've modded a lot of games, and Rivals is easily the single one I've had the most issues with, particularly when it comes to figuring out which installs are causing problems) and Workshop makes it really hard to go through mods and uninstall them.

In fact, I'd say mod sites as a whole are a very troubling system when it comes to DMCAs compared to self-hosting, even if they make discoverability much easier. Content on a mod site like Gamebanana can be collectively wiped easily, self-hosting creates an impossible whack-a-mole game.

Yeah true i feel cheated i wanted to play garrys mod specifically because of the nintendo mods! And btw i dont feel cheated by nintendo more Steam TBH!
I Mean Steam got my money for a game that has now lost almost its entire appeal for me!

 

[Quillion]

Yeah true i feel cheated i wanted to play garrys mod specifically because of the nintendo mods! And btw i dont feel cheated by nintendo more Steam TBH!
I Mean Steam got my money for a game that has now lost almost its entire appeal for me!

Many have raised a good point that a good portion of the Nintendo content (conservatively estimated 75-80%) for GMod consists of ripped models. That's probably the biggest factor there, but of course, the ground-up recreated models have to be crossfire victims too 'cause it's easier to not have to vet for that.

 

[Perkilator]

Maybe it's because I'm more used to doing them in Smash, but I don't feel like counters work nearly as well when they're part of super moves in fighting games.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think the unfortunate news about the various Microsoft owned studios is a very telling reminder of the perils of elevating brands or even figures on a pedestal in the gaming industry. Even as someone that's a Nintendo fan, respects a lot of figures at the company, and recognizes they aren't doing the same sort of bad industry moves other companies... I still have kept my expectations in check about them. Because at the end of the day, Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft are companies in a field of business that's prone to taking dubious shortcuts for profit gains. Some can smarter or even fairer about it (see Iwata cutting his salary a decade ago), but there's an almost parasocial dynamic certain fans have had with big companies. Beyond even the inherently unhealthy nature of that, events like Tango and Arkane being shut down demonstrate that if such passion does exist, it needs extended to the nuts-and-bolts workers in the industry more than companies proper.

 

[Quillion]

Paraphrasing what I said in the NintenZone "Off My Chest" thread:

Part of me actually respects all these AAA studios and publishers for taking all these layoffs, cancellations, and closures in exchange for their project ambition. It actually projects the image of willing to "burn out" rather than "fade away".

 

[fogbadge]

Paraphrasing what I said in the NintenZone "Off My Chest" thread:

Part of me actually respects all these AAA studios and publishers for taking all these layoffs, cancellations, and closures in exchange for their project ambition. It actually projects the image of willing to "burn out" rather than "fade away".

You seem to be saying they’re right to shut down all these companies out of incompetence

 

[Quillion]

You seem to be saying they’re right to shut down all these companies out of incompetence

Hey, "burning out" leaves room to rebuild from the ashes after all. Whether that be the publishers that closed the studios in the first place or some other entity.

 

[fogbadge]

Hey, "burning out" leaves room to rebuild from the ashes after all. Whether that be the publishers that closed the studios in the first place or some other entity.

considering one of the studios that closed made one of their biggest hits last year it’s not so much burning out as setting yourself on fire

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Paraphrasing what I said in the NintenZone "Off My Chest" thread:

Part of me actually respects all these AAA studios and publishers for taking all these layoffs, cancellations, and closures in exchange for their project ambition. It actually projects the image of willing to "burn out" rather than "fade away".

Except they wouldn't be fading away. If a AAA studio hadn't shut down a developer they would still be making games just fine, I don't know why the assumption is that they would "fade away" rather than continue to make good games like they were doing anyway.

 

[Perkilator]

Paraphrasing what I said in the NintenZone "Off My Chest" thread:

Part of me actually respects all these AAA studios and publishers for taking all these layoffs, cancellations, and closures in exchange for their project ambition. It actually projects the image of willing to "burn out" rather than "fade away".

So you’re okay with people losing their jobs once they hit their stride…because you assume they’ll fade away even if the game that put them on the map is only a year old.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The thing is, there's a difference between artistic ambition and that of the corporate variety. The former is very often an admirable trait, wanting to push games into new directions and avoiding stagnation of a series. It can get excessive to the point where it alienates the audience its intending to engage with, but very often the broader culture can see the value in that even if the execution is iffy.

Corporate ambition is a much tricker phenomenon because yes big entertainment empires like those seen this industry got to where they were because of the desire for more, and the likes of Nintendo or Sony wouldn't be the giants they are today if they didn't take the plunge into risky waters. However, given the sheer number of jobs on the line and especially in something like the video game business where so many companies have fallen by the wayside because their plans to grow were beyond their competence? It's something that both has to be handled carefully and examined skeptically because so often it's something driven by short term financial gain at the expense of long-term survival, and even more often done by CEO's that will not suffer the consequences of a developer/publisher's end except for slightly less money.

It's hard for me to look at the last five years of the gaming industry and not see it as far more a public failure of corporate ambition taken to genuinely bad excess than artistic ambition falling short. The big gains made during the pandemic, the major flow of income by live service/MMORPG's, & profit from microtransactions have given far too many companies misplaced confidence in their ability to make big money, and the industry as a whole has suffered for it. The developers/publishers that have avoided layoffs and money losses haven't done so not because they're more ethical, just that they're smarter in managing their budgets and keeping a realistic assessment of their growth.

For all myriad of issues Nintendo has, they've managed to marry that prudent approach to game development with actual allowance of artistic ambition in many of the series. Their failures not hitting them as hard is simply because they keep themselves grounded enough to avoid excess damage.

 

[Quillion]

fogbadge , Champion of Hyrule , Perkilator , LiveStudioAudience :

Look, I can acknowledge that Neil Young's "It's better to burn out..." adage has a bit of shortsightedness to it. A lot of the time, "fading away" produces more consistent success even if it may diminish over time. And maybe this AAA contraction stems from a failure to properly integrate business with art.

But I'm just saying: sometimes, it's better to end after making a big impression and be remembered for that rather than continue way past doing everything you wanted to do.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I guess I can understand that sentiment for older figures in the industry who'd had enough success under their belt to be well remembered and there might be a certain sense of poetry in gettting that last big successful project rather than a series of smaller ones with reduced involvement over time.

The issue for many is that its young talent in the industry that's effectively being burned out before they really get any further chances to demonstrate what they're capable of outside their 1-2 projects. If Tango Gameworks can produce something as strong as Hi-Fi Rush, who's to say that can't make something even better and more impactful if they being overseen by a more competent parent company?

 

[fogbadge]

I guess I can understand that sentiment for older figures in the industry who'd had enough success under their belt to be well remembered and there might be a certain sense of poetry in gettting that last big successful project rather than a series of smaller ones with reduced involvement over time.

The issue for many is that its young talent in the industry that's effectively being burned out before they really get any further chances to demonstrate what they're capable of outside their 1-2 projects. If Tango Gameworks can produce something as strong as Hi-Fi Rush, who's to say that can't make something even better and more impactful if they being overseen by a more competent parent company?

while i completely agree with you on the game potential it is worth remembering that hi-fi rush did have some industry vets working on it

 

[Quillion]

Admittedly, I failed to account for the fact that the developers didn't choose to be closed/laid off when I made that statement.

"It's better to burn out than to fade away"... but only if you choose to burn out rather than have that decision forced upon you.

That said, there's a reason why I said "Part of me actually respects..." rather than it being something I fully believe.

 

[Rizen]

People need to stop assuming that Japanese players are better than American players! Exam ples. A 20,000 point player in Mario kart is the same skill level no matter the country. I watch a lot of competitive smash, pokemon and Mario Kart and there's no clear indication Japanese players are better but it's something I've heard a lot of people just assume.

 

[Janx_uwu]

I think a big reason people make that assumption is because people see lower-tier characters placing better in majors more often than in the US.

I really don't know if that's true or not, but seeing videos pop up with titles like these must be a contributor to why people think that.
I mean, iirc there was a Piranha Plant a couple years ago that took a game off of MKLeo's Joker at a US major. I don't think it's all that different.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Everyone: Smash Ultimate is the most balanced Smash game, and just about every character can succeed!

Everyone when a low tier succeeds:

Petition to make Pikachu's Melee icon the thing we use for the surprised Pikachu meme

 

[Quillion]

Everyone: Smash Ultimate is the most balanced Smash game, and just about every character can succeed!

TBF, I think the community is at the stage where they've realized that Ultimate IS balanced, but not in a good way.

It's not balanced by having every character have extensive RPS-like counterplay where one option beats another option, but another options beats yet another option; it's balanced by the characters having highly unsynergistic playstyles that revolve around a central "good" option.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

TBF, I think the community is at the stage where they've realized that Ultimate IS balanced, but not in a good way.

It's not balanced by having every character have extensive RPS-like counterplay where one option beats another option, but another options beats yet another option; it's balanced by the characters having highly unsynergistic playstyles that revolve around a central "good" option.

I don't even know why balancing is considered such a big deal for Smash - like, don't get me wrong, it is objectively a positive, but being more balanced is not a "gatcha" (and even if it was, then P+ outclasses Ultimate anyway), it isn't something fundamental to a game and its overall experience. If anything, I think having some characters being unusable like in Melee is better than having some characters being overpowered. Kirby's UP? don't use Kirby, forget he's in, leave your emotional attachment to his games at the door with your emotional attachment to any other game not in Melee, easy. Kazuya's OP? God help you, someone's gonna choose Kazuya anyway, and the internal fandom politics will never allow a ban. I'd rather have 70 Melee Kirbies in an 80 character roster than 1 Brawl Meta Knight.

 

[Quillion]

I don't even know why balancing is considered such a big deal for Smash - like, don't get me wrong, it is objectively a positive, but being more balanced is not a "gatcha" (and even if it was, then P+ outclasses Ultimate anyway), it isn't something fundamental to a game and its overall experience. If anything, I think having some characters being unusable like in Melee is better than having some characters being overpowered. Kirby's UP? don't use Kirby, forget he's in, leave your emotional attachment to his games at the door with your emotional attachment to any other game not in Melee, easy. Kazuya's OP? God help you, someone's gonna choose Kazuya anyway, and the internal fandom politics will never allow a ban. I'd rather have 70 Melee Kirbies in an 80 character roster than 1 Brawl Meta Knight.

Balance is definitely more of a trade-off than people realize. It requires a lot of time that can be spent towards other things.

Balancing a large cast? That large cast will likely end up with a lot of same-y characters, clones or not.

Balancing a highly varied, gimmicky cast? They can't possibly come up with design gimmicks for >30 characters.

Balancing a large cast with a bunch of gimmicky characters? They ultimately feel rather same-y other than some gimmick that sets all of them apart.

Even outside of competitive games, balancing is a problem. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is my favorite Sonic game, but I'm not going to sugarcoat how its level design suffers from having to balance a character who can fly, a character who can climb and glide, and a character who can only run fast all at the same time.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Balance is definitely more of a trade-off than people realize. It requires a lot of time that can be spent towards other things.

Balancing a large cast? That large cast will likely end up with a lot of same-y characters, clones or not.

Balancing a highly varied, gimmicky cast? They can't possibly come up with design gimmicks for >30 characters.

Balancing a large cast with a bunch of gimmicky characters? They ultimately feel rather same-y other than some gimmick that sets all of them apart.

Even outside of competitive games, balancing is a problem. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is my favorite Sonic game, but I'm not going to sugarcoat how its level design suffers from having to balance a character who can fly, a character who can climb and glide, and a character who can only run fast all at the same time.

This is why I tend to prefer games with more condensed casts, but also I have played games with large rosters that are leagues more balanced than Ultimate, which leads me to believe just having a lot of characters isn't an excuse. In the case of Ultimate, it feels like there wasn't really an attempt to balance the old characters with the comparatively overtuned new ones. Maining a character like Doc or Dedede in a game with Steve and Pythra in it is like entering a triathlon with both legs strapped together. Considering how weak the character changes were even when the game received updates (I'm pretty sure the only characters who were noticeably affected by patches were Pichu and maybe Ridley), they definitely could've done a lot better addressing those characters if they cared.

I don't even know why balancing is considered such a big deal for Smash - like, don't get me wrong, it is objectively a positive, but being more balanced is not a "gatcha" (and even if it was, then P+ outclasses Ultimate anyway), it isn't something fundamental to a game and its overall experience. If anything, I think having some characters being unusable like in Melee is better than having some characters being overpowered. Kirby's UP? don't use Kirby, forget he's in, leave your emotional attachment to his games at the door with your emotional attachment to any other game not in Melee, easy. Kazuya's OP? God help you, someone's gonna choose Kazuya anyway, and the internal fandom politics will never allow a ban. I'd rather have 70 Melee Kirbies in an 80 character roster than 1 Brawl Meta Knight.

Alright, but... some people just like playing Kirby. I didn't play Dedede in Ultimate because of some inability to let go of my attachment to the character, I did it because he's fun in spite of having a bad matchup against nearly the entire cast. Playstyle, not character identity, is the key here. If I like playing, say, zoners and I pick up a game with no viable zoners, I'm not gonna keep going with the game. I don't mind playing low-tier hero if I must, but if I feel like I'm being punished by God for my character choice, there's only so much fun I can have. It's a pretty popular adage at this point that it's generally better to buff than to nerf (except in the case of one overcentralizing option), and Smash's bargain bin of low-tiers is an excellent example of why.

 

[Quillion]

This is why I tend to prefer games with more condensed casts, but also I have played games with large rosters that are leagues more balanced than Ultimate, which leads me to believe just having a lot of characters isn't an excuse.

What are those games, out of curiosity?

Maining a character like Doc or Dedede in a game with Steve and Pythra in it is like entering a triathlon with both legs strapped together. Considering how weak the character changes were even when the game received updates (I'm pretty sure the only characters who were noticeably affected by patches were Pichu and maybe Ridley), they definitely could've done a lot better addressing those characters if they cared.

I feel like if they did want to balance the glaciers with the new gimmick fighters, it would require a major change in the core philosophy of the game, which falls outside the scope of a balance patch (especially since competitive players across any game, Smash or not, are so sensitive to any balance change that they treat a one-frame difference as either a total revolution on par with BotW to TP and SS or a total disaster on par with Banjo Nuts and Bolts to Tooie).

I actually agree that it's better to buff than nerf though, but considering the gimmick characters are so strong by giving them more tools as opposed to working within already established bounds, a nerf to the gimmickry of characters like Min Min, Hero, Kazuya, and the like wouldn't hurt in this case.

 

[Oracle Link]

Undertale/ deltarunes fanbase isnt even that bad TBH!
True duing early Ut/ DR Times there was a lot of low quality content! But stuff like Ts! Underswap, Yellow and deltatravler prove this fanbase can do great things! Also the theorys have gotten really good!

 

[StrangeKitten]

Undertale/ deltarunes fanbase isnt even that bad TBH!
True duing early Ut/ DR Times there was a lot of low quality content! But stuff like Ts! Underswap, Yellow and deltatravler prove this fanbase can do great things! Also the theorys have gotten really good!

It's like any other fanbase, you got your vocal minority of really weird people and bad apples, but most are chill :3

 

[Ze Diglett]

What are those games, out of curiosity?

As far as fighting games, mainly Tekken 7 and Blazblue Central Fiction. Admittedly, I haven't played either in a while and neither have as many fighters as Ultimate, but T7 pushes 60 characters and doesn't even have an agreed-upon tier list nine years in. Speaking from experience back when I played around Leroy's release, everyone felt like they were able to compete except maybe Gigas (poor *******). I recall a time someone won an international Tekken 7 tournament circuit with Panda, a character universally regarded as nothing special. To me, if even the "bottom-tiers" are able to see such success at the absolute top level of play, that's a good sign for the health of the game's balance. That's not to say T7 was free from balance issues, of course - I remember Leroy and Fahkumram were pretty oppressive when they first released - but the team behind it was so good about balancing that a lot of the bumps got filed down quickly. Smash, meanwhile, has had characters like Steve and Smash 4 Bayonetta and neglected to do anything even when it was clear these characters were running the competitive scene.

I feel like if they did want to balance the glaciers with the new gimmick fighters, it would require a major change in the core philosophy of the game, which falls outside the scope of a balance patch (especially since competitive players across any game, Smash or not, are so sensitive to any balance change that they treat a one-frame difference as either a total revolution on par with BotW to TP and SS or a total disaster on par with Banjo Nuts and Bolts to Tooie).

I think Smash's heavies will unfortunately remain in a pretty sorry state until the devs realize that making them all slow with little to no way of pressuring people at range isn't a good model. Having ranged options and/or large threat bubbles as well as strong up-close pressure is precisely why Rivals of Aether's heavies see any representation in high-level play even if almost no one would put them in the top 3. That's not to say all heavies need to be the same, but if you're gonna make a slow, bait-n-punish type character, some way of pressuring opponents into making mistakes is kind of a necessity.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think Smash's heavies will unfortunately remain in a pretty sorry state until the devs realize that making them all slow with little to no way of pressuring people at range isn't a good model. Having ranged options and/or large threat bubbles as well as strong up-close pressure is precisely why Rivals of Aether's heavies see any representation in high-level play even if almost no one would put them in the top 3. That's not to say all heavies need to be the same, but if you're gonna make a slow, bait-n-punish type character, some way of pressuring opponents into making mistakes is kind of a necessity.

Which is what Incineroar is currently doing, to good success. Alolan Whip helps him get around, has armor, and punishes shield hard if you guess right! Skyjay, the best Incineroar player, placed second at a supermajor with the cat last year, and has some wins over other top players!

That said, I don't think Incin is a top tier threat or anything. I think he just barely reaches high tier. Still, that's pretty darn good for a heavy!

 

[Quillion]

As far as fighting games, mainly Tekken 7 and Blazblue Central Fiction... Smash, meanwhile, has had characters like Steve and Smash 4 Bayonetta and neglected to do anything even when it was clear these characters were running the competitive scene.

See that's the thing. Steve and Bayo feel so broken by design that any attempt to balance them effectively would likely fall outside the scope of balance patches. It's to the point that when Bayo was nerfed for Ultimate she feels so gutted that it feels like there's no point to her gimmick/playstyle (yet she's still considered high, but not top tier).

At least with characters like Melee Fox, early Smash 4 Diddy, or even Brawl Meta Knight, they feel like they're more "broken by numbers" so that they can easily feel similar even with balance patches. Melee Fox especially is so well-designed that most attempts to balance Melee end up getting everyone else to that level.

That's not to say all heavies need to be the same...

Ironically, I have more of a problem with that very issue than their potential balancing (also yeah, I agree that they need actual baiting, poking, range, and setup tools). There just seems to be way more variety among lightweight characters in Smash than heavies somehow; it's to the point that saying "lightweight" conjures up a lot of potential images about what a character plays, while "heavy" conveys a very specific playstyle.

 

[MasterCheef]

Classic Mode was a terrible idea to bring back. I can get into a match with a cpu anytime i want to.

 

[Quillion]

Classic Mode was a terrible idea to bring back. I can get into a match with a cpu anytime i want to.

Eh; how else are we going to have "mini-boss" matches against giant and metal opponents?

Honestly, I'd say Ultimate's Classic Mode and Melee's Classic Mode should both coexist. Just call the former "arcade mode" and add some brief in-engine cutscenes for a few fights.

 

[Oracle Link]

Eh; how else are we going to have "mini-boss" matches against giant and metal opponents?

Honestly, I'd say Ultimate's Classic Mode and Melee's Classic Mode should both coexist. Just call the former "arcade mode" and add some brief in-engine cutscenes for a few fights.

How about you make the Mini Boss (and bosses) Playable! Smash in both single and multiplayer would be so much more fun if you could be unfair and whats more unfair Than Link Stuggling to defeat ganon!
Or the RTDL Gang trying to defeat metal Marx?
Or i dunno just having diffrent live counts per player!

 

[Quillion]

How about you make the Mini Boss (and bosses) Playable! Smash in both single and multiplayer would be so much more fun if you could be unfair and whats more unfair Than Link Stuggling to defeat ganon!
Or the RTDL Gang trying to defeat metal Marx?
Or i dunno just having diffrent live counts per player!

I wouldn't mind seeing Special Smash have those options tbh. Smash Crusade and CMC+ have some of those options already anyway.

 

[Oracle Link]

Zelda A Link to the Pasts Sprite are pretty Ugly! Like so much stuff has the wrong color or is to detailed and ergo stufg is less visible!
If i had to go with a set of best zelda sprites (from that era) its the gameboy games! Simple easy to read designs that might be more cartoony but its ideal for sprite art!

But who knows maybe im just biased?!
But honestly give us Gameboy sprite Merch! We only get SNES and NES Sprite merch!

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

I beat SA2 Battle recently and honestly... the Sonic/Shadow stages were not much better than the Mech and Treasure Hunt stages. Most of the time you're either running through some of the most linear, automated and uninspired level design in the series or dealing with frustratingly jank do-or-die platforming. Levels like Pyramid Cave, Crazy Gadget, Sky Rail and Final Chase being huge offenders in this case. Only City Escape and Final Rush I'd consider above decent with the others I didn't mention just feeling bland.

 

[Quillion]

I beat SA2 Battle recently and honestly... the Sonic/Shadow stages were not much better than the Mech and Treasure Hunt stages. Most of the time you're either running through some of the most linear, automated and uninspired level design in the series or dealing with frustratingly jank do-or-die platforming. Levels like Pyramid Cave, Crazy Gadget, Sky Rail and Final Chase being huge offenders in this case. Only City Escape and Final Rush I'd consider above decent with the others I didn't mention just feeling bland.

I think it's fair to say the Sonic Adventure era marked a time when Sonic Team just gave up on integrating speed, platforming, exploration, and other gimmicks together and resorted to putting each of those things into discrete sections of the game.

It's definitely a lot more difficult than it sounds to put them all together though, so I actually respect Sonic Team for trying to integrate all of those things in the 2D games in the first place. (Though it seems that recently mobile devs like Hardlight and Rovio are running circles around Sonic Team in terms of integrating them all into 3D).