What are your opinions on Project M?

[Deleted member]

PM is overall really really good. I just hope they don't turn every character into captain falcon.

 

[Strong Badam]

I hate Captain Falcon.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate Captain Falcon.

then don't play sonic.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I hate Captain Falcon.

Hey, me too. Maybe we can have tea together sometime.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik wants her throw back

Consistency of punish and inevitability of damage is crucial to her character feel

It's like her defining feature relative to the others

I don't want instant death CG because that's bad for its own reasons but is d-throw > aerial really asking for so much?

Nerf the fair if you feel it's too good because of how good of a finish fair is.

But she needs a throw to play a proper shield-attack-grab RPS. Alternatively give her Peach's d-smash so she can cheat like the characters with broken blockstrings.

Alternatively, if you're going to give her Marth's DI dependent throw game at least give her his sword to balance it so she has the option to u-throw > react to defense > combo with a huge priority advantage when she doesn't want to gamble her throw on DI or their reaction time

On that note, I assure you - if this game sticks then people will learn how to react to the faster throws and then they'll be trash and Sheik will be too

It happened to Marth in Melee, it'll happen to her

But she won't have Marth's sword & u-throw to fall back on and that's the difference

 

[Archangel]

Sheik wants her throw back

Consistency of punish and inevitability of damage is crucial to her character feel

It's like her defining feature relative to the others

I don't want instant death CG because that's bad for its own reasons but is d-throw > aerial really asking for so much?

Nerf the fair if you feel it's too good because of how good of a finish fair is.

But she needs a throw to play a proper shield-attack-grab RPS. Alternatively give her Peach's d-smash so she can cheat like the characters with broken blockstrings.

Alternatively, if you're going to give her Marth's DI dependent throw game at least give her his sword to balance it so she has the option to u-throw > react to defense > combo with a huge priority advantage when she doesn't want to gamble her throw on DI or their reaction time

On that note, I assure you - if this game sticks then people will learn how to react to the faster throws and then they'll be trash and Sheik will be too

It happened to Marth in Melee, it'll happen to her

But she won't have Marth's sword & u-throw to fall back on and that's the difference

I would agree 100% with this but...PAL exists...so I guess I can't

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvw3dcLfLvc

^ he looks like he's doing pretty good without it...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah but in PAL I'd argue that even though high percent KO isn't possible the low percent game can be made consistent with skill. I've seen some very refined low percent throw games in PAL with it (Amsah, Over, Ice, CJ back in the day, etc) and I think if that was her PM throw I'd be cool with it. There's nothing wrong with nerfing it to status of low percent damage builder, anti-shield move at low percent, and anti-crouch move (to get them out of crouch percent ranges) rather than all purpose combo starter, combo extender, combo finisher, direct shield counter at any percent, and anti-crouch move for any percent (that's a retardedly useful all-in-one). And even in PAL I've noticed people trying stuff with it to mitigate the fact that it doesn't work as a direct KO move on floaties like Peach (Over used d-throw > needles to really cool effect at a recent Europe tourney vs Armada - I remember suggesting that offhand a while ago and despite how much I dislike the throw I do think it has some more potential).

However, the PM model distributes control to the players differently. Sheik's ability to convert the grab into control (combo) is primarily dependent on the opponent's DI cooperating with the throw direction she picks. This gives the defending player too much control over whether it works or not IMO because it's reliant on their reaction time as the key variable - whereas PAL d-throw uses factors like percent or positioning that Sheik has some control over (the opponent's efforts to participate in the positioning games during tech chase are punishable by heavier combo starter too, so it's very interactive). The difference is essentially that in PM the throw's effectiveness is largely something Sheik cannot plan for. With PAL d-throw, percents are nice and stable because you have a big say in how you combo and how fast they take damage during it. There's a lot of finesse with controlling their position so you can prepare to punish a bid for the edge cancel position but the victim retains some control & options that are essentially one of the defining features of smash. That said, appropriately I feel the bulk of control is given to the punishing character (which makes sense - you should be in the driver's seat when you initiate a punishment). In PM, I feel too much control is in the hands of the defending player relative to how much control Sheik has.

Like, I get it. I do. It's a tough balance because NTSC Sheik clearly has too much control over her opponent during throw and this needs to be weakened. But in that same regard I feel PAL goes just a bit too far the other way because of how limiting the trajectories are and how the throw's usefulness dwindles as percent rises above a certain point. And PM goes even further in that direction but takes a bad step by funneling the throw game into guess & reaction games - this simply places too much emphasis on how the defender responds to the grab.

 

[Archangel]

Yeah but in PAL I'd argue that even though high percent KO isn't possible the low percent game can be made consistent with skill. I've seen some very refined low percent throw games in PAL with it and I think if that was her PM throw I'd be cool with it. There's nothing wrong with nerfing it to status of damage builder rather than all purpose combo starter, combo extender, combo finisher, and anti-crouch move (that's a retardedly useful all-in-one). And even in PAL I've noticed people trying stuff with it to mitigate the fact that it doesn't work as a KO move on floaties like Peach (Over used d-throw > needles to really cool effect at a recent Europe tourney vs Armada - I remember suggesting that offhand a while ago and despite how much I dislike the throw I do think it has some potential to be unlocked).

However, the PM model has it as primarily dependent on the opponent's DI cooperating for whether it works or not, rather than percent or positioning or other factors that Sheik has some control over. This means the throw's effectiveness is largely something Sheik cannot plan for. With PAL d-throw, percents are nice and stable because you have a big say in how you combo and how fast they take damage during it. You give control to the punishing character. In PM, I feel too much control is in the hands of the defending player relative to how much control Sheik has. I get that NTSC Sheik has too much control over her opponent during throw, but I feel PAL goes too far the other way and PM goes even further in that direction.

Interesting, Specifically the last bit. Do you really believe Sheik's throw game is worse in PM than in PAL? From what I know(don't quote me) The dthrow sheik has in PM is more or less a hybridization between PAL and NTSC. If you are high on something and you DI towards sheik then you can still be caught with melee-esq attacks or grabbed again. However if you DI away the result is more like a PAL-ish dthrow. Then, there is this weird Bthrow effect where an opponent DI'ing towards sheik when bthrown is like...Janky McJankertend (yes I really call it that) for a moment allowing you to smack the **** out of them. Meaning if you can read the person you are playing against then you can force them into falling for Dthrow or Bthrow setups.

It's 4:46AM and I've not slept so sorry if this post makes little-know sense.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My understanding is if the defender gets the right DI to match Sheik's throw choice they get out, otherwise Sheik gets an NTSC style throw combo.

My issue with this model is that it depends on a bad DI and the throws, despite their speed, have distinct (different) animations. If she's a problem, people will learn to react to her throw choice (happened to Marth in Melee but he had tech chase & u-throw > sword to fall back on [but Sheik doesn't]
). Moreover, I'm fearful that DIs exist that force her to regrab or whatnot in certain situations - these kinds of DIs are dangerous because they're essentially free DI guesses for the defender. I also dislike that functionally regrab is such a flimsy option, when in PAL and NTSC it's the damage consolidation option and generally regarded as the one you pick to emphasize consistency. But there's nothing consistent about regrabbing in PM. Finally, even if this is actually too fast to react to, you're still playing a 50-50 when I don't see why it's necessary. Other characters have amazing, consistent throws (and other combo starters). Why should Sheik be different? I doubt she's anywhere near top 5 in this game. Morever, Falco barely got nerfed in the transition and he's considered better than Sheik by the bulk of the MBR. So why did Sheik need to get nerfed so hard?

Regarding overall quality of each throw model... just because PAL's follow ups are so limited I'm not sure if her PAL throw is actually better (it's close). But I think that's also irrelevant in some ways (the question of which is better). I would still prefer the PAL throw because it behaves consistently (which is basically Shek's flavour as a top tier in Melee), it can be developed and fleshed out if it's a decent move (which it is), and it gives a more appropriate level of control to the comboing player (or at least in my eyes, but this kind of thing is largely subjective anyway). Thrusting the punish game into coin tosses just introduces too much randomness. And, again, if she's seriously a good character deep down then people will learn to react to the throw (like they've done in Melee) and those tools will no longer avail her much at all. It's happened before.

 

[ShroudedOne]

How would you suggest altering the grab to make it more NTSC like, but without the devastating 0-80 CGs on like, half the cast? I think that was what the PM designers were factoring in (though this might not be the case, it seems the most likely). They didn't want 2/3rds of the cast to be invalidated by Sheik's downthrow. It's a legitimate concern, but I do agree with you that she should have consistency in her throw game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You could make her up throw the good throw, as opposed to her d-throw.

IMO it ultimately comes down to making the throw send higher (so stun wears off before they fall back into regrab range - you could make her standing grab lower too to tweak this). She mostly CGs the higher end mid-gravity characters and semi-FFers, so making the throw send higher with more KB could probably still allow you to hit aerial on most characters but let them break out of stun before falling into regrab. Some CGing may be unavoidable but if it's shrunk to like 0-40% then is that really a problem? Going from zero to 60% isn't really unheard of for a Falco or Marth combo anyway and tons of characters can do that with a good setup. Furthermore, buffing the other characters to have a more comparable damage race vs her might make 0-40% not a big deal for its own reasons - if DK's uair chain is improved to be more reliable vs her then is 0-40% that bad when he can do the same thing on her?

 

[ShroudedOne]

As in the throw that gives her the guaranteed follows, but doesn't chaingrab? I like the idea. Hopefully, you're not just talking to the air, and they're actually listening. :\

 

[KirbyKaze]

I see no problem with 0-30/40 CGs if other characters have comparable stuff. 0-80 is too much, sure. That's basically a stock after you slap them off assuming you land the edgeguard (and in NTSC she can vert kill a lot of characters if they try to stay mid-stage, which is obviously lol). But how bad is 0-40 in game like PM? Or even 0-30? With some of the things I've seen Lucario, DK, Ganon, Ike, Falco, and Falcon do... I really don't think brief CGs that convert into aerial or tilt combos would be game breaking. Particularly because the game is faster in general, people have more equally distributed punishment, and Sheik's style (though still effective) is less good in the face of so many fast characters with comparable range to her. Furthermore, these brief CGs would only affect certain weight classes anyway (since floaties & mids would go above the regrab). The only real thing that needs to be addressed is that I could see a bizarre Melee Doc-esque CG developing on FFers with this kind of tweak (like his current d-throw CG vs FFers). Not sure how I'd address that, in truth. Maybe give the throw a trajectory bias to a certain side so FFers hit the ground before they're at risk of regrab until like 70% or so if possible? Not sure, honestly.

That said, for semi-FFers I think a CGless or limited CG and more attack-oriented follow up tree would be a realistic goal. Because her legs hit high you could probably focus the stun finish time for previously CGable characters to fall within or around the middle of her leg height during u-tilt (say Link regains jump at 0% just above her head height). Avoiding the CG is even more doable IMO if you are willing to lower her grab hitbox to closer to lower ribs height rather than where it currently is, since part of what makes her CG go so long in NTSC is how high her grab hitbox is placed.

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik wants her throw back

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14097220&postcount=54811

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14128880&postcount=55216

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14130321&postcount=55255

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14159185&postcount=55733

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14765791&postcount=70063

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14765898&postcount=70068

I have more if you want them. I just grabbed the posts from that topic, not this one, and were the more detailed ones rather than my usual 1-liners.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I love you, Max.

 

[Deleted member]

ok then, 1 more, a conversation with sheik's primary designer:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14796111&postcount=70804

 

[Archangel]

How would you suggest altering the grab to make it more NTSC like, but without the devastating 0-80 CGs on like, half the cast? I think that was what the PM designers were factoring in (though this might not be the case, it seems the most likely). They didn't want 2/3rds of the cast to be invalidated by Sheik's downthrow. It's a legitimate concern, but I do agree with you that she should have consistency in her throw game.

You could make her up throw the good throw, as opposed to her d-throw.

IMO it ultimately comes down to making the throw send higher (so stun wears off before they fall back into regrab range - you could make her standing grab lower too to tweak this). She mostly CGs the higher end mid-gravity characters and semi-FFers, so making the throw send higher with more KB could probably still allow you to hit aerial on most characters but let them break out of stun before falling into regrab. Some CGing may be unavoidable but if it's shrunk to like 0-40% then is that really a problem? Going from zero to 60% isn't really unheard of for a Falco or Marth combo anyway and tons of characters can do that with a good setup. Furthermore, buffing the other characters to have a more comparable damage race vs her might make 0-40% not a big deal for its own reasons - if DK's uair chain is improved to be more reliable vs her then is 0-40% that bad when he can do the same thing on her?

I get what you are saying and honestly alot of what you are saying are good ideas. I suggest sending them to the DEVs. I might do it myself if I don't pass out...

*passes out*

 

[Deleted member]

I get what you are saying and honestly alot of what you are saying are good ideas. I suggest sending them to the DEVs. I might do it myself if I don't pass out...

*passes out*

I gave his ideas to the developers in february and march.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just find it dumb that Falco can be piloted by 2/3 of the best players

And he has a more consistent combo game vs the best characters (himself & Fox)

And he has better stage control tools (laser bolsters movement and cripples opponent's, and his SHFFL range gives him high stage presence)

And he has a better game vs shields (shield pressure based on frame advantage & windows rather than spacing outside shield grab)

And his recovery gives more room to the player for skill because of its variability (potentially lagless recovery, tons of variations & flexibility)

And he was almost completely unchanged aside from being transplanted into sort of a new environment with different nuances to the physics and whatever

But Sheik can't have a consistent throw of any kind and she's far more directly affected by the influx of faster & higher range characters that her Melee defense doesn't fend off as well period (so she has to become more evasion & shield based anyway but then her throw sucks too so keeping pace is stupidly hard and it's like :/)

 

[Deleted member]

i find it funny that ganon and mario can still chaingrab with downthrow just fine.

and are probably just as good or better characters otherwise.

edit: falco was also subject to a secondary design philosophy that most characters can do really devastating things to him, and fox for that matter. sheik is still quite good defensively. i'm not sure it's a fair comparison, and tbh sheik with a normal downthrow is probably better than falco just because the rest of the cast is how it is. sheik with pal downthrow though basically just sucks lol

 

[ShroudedOne]

If Sheik doesn't get a grab game back, shine should be changed to a non-invincible, frame 5 combo starter.

 

[Jolteon]

I can see why the PMBR want to change Sheik's dthrow, but the compromise is poor. I could write more about it, but KirbyKaze's covered most of my thoughts on why. Providing it's possible, what's wrong with removing guaranteed 0-80 CGs and giving her a good combo flowchart from dthrow? The problem that people had with her dthrow is evidently not the fact that she gets a guaranteed follow after grabbing because so many characters have that.

 

[Archangel]

I can see why the PMBR want to change Sheik's dthrow, but the compromise is poor. I could write more about it, but KirbyKaze's covered most of my thoughts on why. Providing it's possible, what's wrong with removing guaranteed 0-80 CGs and giving her a good combo flowchart from dthrow? The problem that people had with her dthrow is evidently not the fact that she gets a guaranteed follow after grabbing because so many characters have that.

Well the key words in every build of Project M Demo so far has been "subject to change". With the extreme fixes to 2.5's physics it should be alot easier to see who needs what. If it turns out that Sheik is low tier then she will probably get something. If it's not her NTSC dthrow it will be something else.

I waged war over Marth getting no changes a long time ago and in the end this is basically what I got.

 

[Jolteon]

Well the key words in every build of Project M Demo so far has been "subject to change". With the extreme fixes to 2.5's physics it should be alot easier to see who needs what. If it turns out that Sheik is low tier then she will probably get something. If it's not her NTSC dthrow it will be something else.

I waged war over Marth getting no changes a long time ago and in the end this is basically what I got.

I wanted to voice my opinion over it since I think it's a legitimate concern that should be addressed before Project M's final release. I don't think Sheik will be a low tier even if she is unchanged, but I also don't think she deserves having her grab game changed so dramatically.

 

[Archangel]

I wanted to voice my opinion over it since I think it's a legitimate concern that should be addressed before Project M's final release. I don't think Sheik will be a low tier even if she is unchanged, but I also don't think she deserves having her grab game changed so dramatically.

It all depends on how it is handled. If she can 0-85 alot of the cast she won't move too far up or down at this point in terms of viability. Alot of people don't know it but Sheik was the target for everybody. Melee sheik tier is the measuring stick for every character come the final version and...if she can Dthrow->dismiss everybody the measuring becomes quite...difficult. However since, 2.1-present things have changed drastically. Sheik may not be in "wth do I do with this - tier" for long.

Topic just caught a blaze in the PM thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15035750#post15035750

 

[Rikana]

Loving this sheik attention.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My baby needed me.

 

[Impp]

I wonder if they could give her all her melee ntsc throws, EXCEPT, every third D throw was PAL D throw...

 

[bubbaking]

That could work... It would be similar to Ike's upB failing to grab the ledge after the 5th (or whatever the limit is) try to prevent stalling.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I wonder if they could give her all her melee ntsc throws, EXCEPT, every third D throw was PAL D throw...

Or make it random, 50% chance of each for each throw

 

[Jolteon]

random would be dumb

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, I like to plan my 'guaranteed' follow-ups, and everyone should too, in a competitive metagame. I like the PAL dthrow after every 3 NTSC dthrows idea. It's consistent, can be followed-up with stuff, and it solves the CG crap.

 

[Green Ranger]

No love for RNG

 

[phish-it]

I doubt having the throw change randomly is possible but I don't really know the scope of Brawl hacking. Even if it is possible why have inconsistency on one throw for one character?

It shouldn't be hard to balance Sheik's down throw while still keeping it similar to NTSC. Why not adjust the angle to halfway between PAL and NTSC (70 degrees) an increase the knockback growth slightly (from 50 growth to 55 or 60)? It'd prevent long chainthrow's but still allow her to follow up via aerials. Though I could see Peach and Jiggylypuff getting tossed out of follow up range at high percents if this happens.

 

[bubbaking]

No love for RNG

Nope, none at all. Screw Peach and Luigi, and I can't even stand that about G&W.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I don't think that Peach should have her stitchfaces in Project M, if I'm being completely honest. I don't like the situations they produce, and would rather just have a MUCH FASTER PULL TIME (or normal turnips that deal more damage than they do now...would 10 percent be too much to ask for?)

 

[Kink-Link5]

PM is overall really really good. I just hope they don't turn every character into captain falcon.

Post of the year.



Seriously **** Falcon. Camp on the side of the stage and then get braindead rewards off a single dash dance/every move linking into anything. Except there are other characters that do that better and have more going for them as a character that they don't have to camp to do well. Falcon is literally just as lame as low tiers except he gets used more so it's marginally even more obnoxious.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14097220&postcount=54811

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14128880&postcount=55216

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14130321&postcount=55255

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14159185&postcount=55733

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14765791&postcount=70063

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14765898&postcount=70068

I have more if you want them. I just grabbed the posts from that topic, not this one, and were the more detailed ones rather than my usual 1-liners.

Runner up.


PM is good but there are more than a few really silly design choices that stand out as indicative of the beta status of the project.

 

[RFrizzle]

Kinklink did your dad used to knee you or something? Thats the only reason I could think of as to why half your posts are just *****ing about falcon like a whiny ****.

 

[The Star King]

Last time I checked there are Falcon players who are successful without camping.

I'm not even a Falcon fanboy, but that much hating on a video game character makes me wat. So I feel compelled to defend him.

 

[VietGeek]

what if we took away the n from falcon

what would be your response

obv